Gender Orientation, Biological vs. Behavioral

[Matthew.B]

I really believe, that in my case anyway, it is a mental illness that I am genetically predisposed to.

That is one way to look at it, if that helps you. I would recommend listening to the pod cast above, it might help you think about you as whole, instead of broken.

Zionminded, you must not have seen that question in the earlier post so I'll ask again: what did you think of Ty Mansfield's writing (http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/ ... t-cant-gay" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) on the issue of sexuality and identity, if you've read it? I ask that here because Mansfield talks about going from feeling broken to feeling whole--and finding a heterosexual family in the process. EDIT: He actually talks about that aspect here: http://www.ldsliving.com/Living-with-Sa ... ry/s/68799" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; .

Also, do you believe that a marriage covenant between two people of the same biological sex is morally wrong in that it inverts the established order of God? If not, what are your thoughts on that proposition?

If your desire is to spread awareness and open minds, I'd appreciate you opening up my perspective. As I mentioned before I'm very anti-Dehlin for personal reasons, but I'm open to hearing enlightened arguments as to why we should accept homosexual marriage in the United States. As it stands, I can see true, God-approved benefits (i.e. blessings) for removing the social stigma from homosexuality but not from allowing homosexual marriage to become normalized.

[Matthew.B]

That is one way to look at it, if that helps you. I would recommend listening to the pod cast above, it might help you think about you as whole, instead of broken.

I'm not interested in that. I know what I want (a wife, a family) it may be ego but I haven't given up on those dreams. I don't feel broken anymore, only gifted with perspective. We all need His refining fire.

I really, really appreciate your contribution to this thread, SmallFarm, and what you've said about how you perceive your own identity. Have you read Ty Mansfield's article on the issue of sexualty and identity within Mormonism? If you haven't it might resonate with you:

http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/ ... t-cant-gay" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I really enjoy his perspective on intimacy between males and the effect of homophobia on that.

Yeah, that's a real thing! I find myself checking myself with my guy friends sometimes as a result of some of that social indoctrination...

[JohnnyL]

I believe that there are many causes for someone to be gay, and aren't the same for everyone. Some may have a biological component that is "activated" due to some trigger.

That's my current best guess. Or more, there is a prenatal trauma that is triggered.

[JohnnyL]

Dehlin, J. P., Galliher, R. V., Bradshaw, W. S., Hyde, D. C., & Crowell, K. A. (2015). Sexual orientation change efforts among current or former LDS church members. Journal of counseling psychology, 62(2), 95.

As in John Dehlin?? ;(
I already have doubts as to the entire thing, now.

[zionminded]

That sexual orientation is biological not behavioral, but that acting out is a sin, and if you enter into a gay marriage it is considered apostasy, and your and your children cannot participant in church membership either. That is the church's position today.

Please cite your references that the Church has said people are born gay or bi, thus meaning they are different biologically than anyone else. =))

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12 ... hoice?lite" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Of course you won't hear it in too many open circles, because it triggers too many fundamentalist Mormons, just like the priesthood given to blacks.

Love that SJW term "triggers." The screenshot did not say it was biological; Psychoanalytic views would suggest that experiences can be just as deterministic as biology. One wonders though, was the marketing and legal division of the Church in charge of the said statement?

Anyway, if the Church and the scriptures conflict then one must rely on the scriptures.

So dead prophets who's words are filtered and translated by non-prophets are more reliable than living ones, or even the voice of the Spirit?

[zionminded]

Dehlin, J. P., Galliher, R. V., Bradshaw, W. S., Hyde, D. C., & Crowell, K. A. (2015). Sexual orientation change efforts among current or former LDS church members. Journal of counseling psychology, 62(2), 95.

As in John Dehlin?? ;(
I already have doubts as to the entire thing, now.

Doubts are good, they offer you a chance to either hide, or learn and grow.

John had an episode on the results of that study here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mpgTTQ44Dk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They even bring up common concerns from the research methods.

[JohnnyL]

What about all other stigmas?

What about polygamists, people attracted to children, people attracted to animals, people attracted to dead bodies, people attracted to the Eiffel Tower?

What about sociopaths, psychopaths, etc.?

Unless one is asking and hoping for everyone to accept those people, too, it's hypocritical to ask everyone to accept homosexuals.

[zionminded]

I really believe, that in my case anyway, it is a mental illness that I am genetically predisposed to.

That is one way to look at it, if that helps you. I would recommend listening to the pod cast above, it might help you think about you as whole, instead of broken.

Zionminded, you must not have seen that question in the earlier post so I'll ask again: what did you think of Ty Mansfield's writing (http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/ ... t-cant-gay" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) on the issue of sexuality and identity, if you've read it? I ask that here because Mansfield talks about going from feeling broken to feeling whole--and finding a heterosexual family in the process. EDIT: He actually talks about that aspect here: http://www.ldsliving.com/Living-with-Sa ... ry/s/68799" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; .

Also, do you believe that a marriage covenant between two people of the same biological sex is morally wrong in that it inverts the established order of God? If not, what are your thoughts on that proposition?

If your desire is to spread awareness and open minds, I'd appreciate you opening up my perspective. As I mentioned before I'm very anti-Dehlin for personal reasons, but I'm open to hearing enlightened arguments as to why we should accept homosexual marriage in the United States. As it stands, I can see true, God-approved benefits (i.e. blessings) for removing the social stigma from homosexuality but not from allowing homosexual marriage to become normalized.

Im sorry I did miss that question. I've not read that article, I will do so, thank you!

I think a civil-marriage covenant between two people of the same biological sex is fine. I believe morale boundaries are crossed with indiscriminate sex outside of marriage, regardless of orientation, and marriage for same gender relationships allow a step forward in better morale standards as a whole. There are limits to same gender marriages of course. I am not an advocate for temple sealings for same gender couples.

John Dehlin is just one voice in a sea of hundreds of thousands of Mormon's who think like I do, and I don't agree with Delin on all topics. His connection to this topic is just related to his Phd degree, and published study on the topic as it relates to LDS sexuality interpretations.

[Fiannan]

So dead prophets who's words are filtered and translated by non-prophets are more reliable than living ones, or even the voice of the Spirit?

In regards to scripture on this subject, is the podcast you make reference to filled with more inspiration than the scriptures?

[zionminded]

What about all other stigmas?

What about polygamists, people attracted to children, people attracted to animals, people attracted to dead bodies, people attracted to the Eiffel Tower?

What about sociopaths, psychopaths, etc.?

Unless one is asking and hoping for everyone to accept those people, too, it's hypocritical to ask everyone to accept homosexuals.

Good questions JohnnyL. Polygamy or Polyandry are nearly impossible to practice today.

Sexual paraphillias is different.

Please enjoy this peer reviewed article on the subject:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3310132/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It says: "Although those literatures remain underdeveloped, the existing findings thus far suggest that homosexuality has a pattern of correlates largely, but not entirely, distinct from that identified among the paraphilias. At least, if homosexuality were deemed a paraphilia, it would be relatively unique among them, taxonometrically speaking."

[zionminded]

So dead prophets who's words are filtered and translated by non-prophets are more reliable than living ones, or even the voice of the Spirit?

In regards to scripture on this subject, is the podcast you make reference to filled with more inspiration than the scriptures?

I would invite you to use the Holy Ghost you were given as a gift, to sift and sort through the podcast and have it teach you at the level you are at. You have permission to read or listen to material outside of the scriptures, its okay. If you would rather stay inside the sheepfold for your safety, you can; the Shepard (Christ) will be outside waiting for you to learn by leaving the sheepfold.

[Fiannan]

So dead prophets who's words are filtered and translated by non-prophets are more reliable than living ones, or even the voice of the Spirit?

In regards to scripture on this subject, is the podcast you make reference to filled with more inspiration than the scriptures?

I would invite you to use the Holy Ghost you were given as a gift, to sift and sort through the podcast and have it teach you at the level you are at. You have permission to read or listen to material outside of the scriptures, its okay. If you would rather stay inside the sheepfold for your safety, you can; the Shepard (Christ) will be outside waiting for you to learn by leaving the sheepfold.

What, should I pray about the podcast and ask for a witness of it? Fat chance of that. Oh, and I have your permission to read outside the scriptures? Believe me, I have read a great deal of material outside the scriptures and it pretty much leads me back to the truth of the scriptures.

Also, I believe you are the first to imply I am a follower in the context of conformity...a sheep. However, I must ask, are you saying I can learn about Christ by leaving the Church behind because that is what it sounds like you are saying. Correct me if I am wrong.

[Serragon]

So dead prophets who's words are filtered and translated by non-prophets are more reliable than living ones, or even the voice of the Spirit?

In regards to scripture on this subject, is the podcast you make reference to filled with more inspiration than the scriptures?

I would invite you to use the Holy Ghost you were given as a gift, to sift and sort through the podcast and have it teach you at the level you are at. You have permission to read or listen to material outside of the scriptures, its okay. If you would rather stay inside the sheepfold for your safety, you can; the Shepard (Christ) will be outside waiting for you to learn by leaving the sheepfold.

You are an open advocate for same sex marriage. You believe that acceptance and normalization of homosexuality makes for a more moral society.

Then you recommend that Fiannan use the Holy Ghost while listening to some podcast filled with the same Satanic garbage you are preaching.

I am sure you believe the Holy Ghost has lead you to these "truths" you preach. You are mistaken. You are being deceived because what you desire is not in line with the Gospel.

You would have us believe that the Lord has suddenly decided that after thousands of years of saying homosexuality was an abomination and never once giving any hint that marriage between two people of the same sex is OK, that he is now speaking to you by the Holy Ghost to indicate that same sex marriage is now OK and moral.

There is a way to test your promptings to verify they are from God and it isn't by referencing social scientists who support your progressive ungodly ideology.

[BTH&T]

This is not to be argumentative....but God made a lot of things that are seen as imperfections.

11 And the Lord said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the Lord?

I would interpret the scripture quoted as God created "man", and very appropriately He gave agency for man to use his mouth or mind, or body as that individual chooses too.
Which is very linked to this topic, God created Adam. This does in no way imply that God created sin. Man chooses to sin.
Opposition to truth is needed, hence the adversary....the father of lies. It is the adversary that creates, promotes sin.
For good or for bad, the choice is always ours to make. We can not make excuses at the judgment seat that "I was born this way" or "the devil made me do it".
Instead there is a plan that allows us to repent of our errors, which means we remove the behavior from our life. This is not done alone, the Savoir is with us every step of the way.

I am not trying to talk down to anyone, I just boil things down to the basic truth. This is not trying to imply this life is easy ether, it takes every effort we can muster. Stumbling every step of the way in my case!

[zionminded]

So dead prophets who's words are filtered and translated by non-prophets are more reliable than living ones, or even the voice of the Spirit?

In regards to scripture on this subject, is the podcast you make reference to filled with more inspiration than the scriptures?

I would invite you to use the Holy Ghost you were given as a gift, to sift and sort through the podcast and have it teach you at the level you are at. You have permission to read or listen to material outside of the scriptures, its okay. If you would rather stay inside the sheepfold for your safety, you can; the Shepard (Christ) will be outside waiting for you to learn by leaving the sheepfold.

What, should I pray about the podcast and ask for a witness of it? Fat chance of that. Oh, and I have your permission to read outside the scriptures? Believe me, I have read a great deal of material outside the scriptures and it pretty much leads me back to the truth of the scriptures.

Also, I believe you are the first to imply I am a follower in the context of conformity...a sheep. However, I must ask, are you saying I can learn about Christ by leaving the Church behind because that is what it sounds like you are saying. Correct me if I am wrong.

No silly, not my permission, give it to yourself. The process of learning about things doesn't draw you away from the church, though you may understand and reframe your belief of things inside of the organization in ways you didn't know previously.

[zionminded]

So dead prophets who's words are filtered and translated by non-prophets are more reliable than living ones, or even the voice of the Spirit?

In regards to scripture on this subject, is the podcast you make reference to filled with more inspiration than the scriptures?

I would invite you to use the Holy Ghost you were given as a gift, to sift and sort through the podcast and have it teach you at the level you are at. You have permission to read or listen to material outside of the scriptures, its okay. If you would rather stay inside the sheepfold for your safety, you can; the Shepard (Christ) will be outside waiting for you to learn by leaving the sheepfold.

You are an open advocate for same sex marriage. You believe that acceptance and normalization of homosexuality makes for a more moral society.

Then you recommend that Fiannan use the Holy Ghost while listening to some podcast filled with the same Satanic garbage you are preaching.

I am sure you believe the Holy Ghost has lead you to these "truths" you preach. You are mistaken. You are being deceived because what you desire is not in line with the Gospel.

You would have us believe that the Lord has suddenly decided that after thousands of years of saying homosexuality was an abomination and never once giving any hint that marriage between two people of the same sex is OK, that he is now speaking to you by the Holy Ghost to indicate that same sex marriage is now OK and moral.

There is a way to test your promptings to verify they are from God and it isn't by referencing social scientists who support your progressive ungodly ideology.

I remember as a missionary people felt that way about the Book of Mormon. They wouldn't read it, because it was "satanic" to them. Cultural biases are VERY strong predictors of close minded theologies. The podcast actually doesn't address social issues regarding this, but you don't have to listen.

The Gospel has nothing to do with gender orientation. The gospel is simple, faith, repentance, and forgiveness. The policies of the church are BROAD, and incorporate many things that are not in the gospel at all, and have changed and evolved over time based on the cultural biases of the church leadership.

Your at Fowler's faith level 2. Look it up.

[Serragon]

The Gospel has nothing to do with gender orientation. The gospel is simple, faith, repentance, and forgiveness. The policies of the church are BROAD, and incorporate many things that are not in the gospel at all, and have changed and evolved over time based on the cultural biases of the church leadership.

Your at Fowler's faith level 2. Look it up.

Ah yes.. back to your security blanket of the social sciences. You claim to put your faith in God, yet all references are to men and social studies.

The gospel is simple, faith, repentance, and forgiveness

Implicit in this definition is sin. Hence the need for repentence. Turning away from sin leads to forgiveness. But in your world, the sin needs to be accepted, normalized, and probably encouraged. You use the words of the Gospel, but your meanings are in direct opposition.

The policies of the church are BROAD, and incorporate many things that are not in the gospel at all, and have changed and evolved over time based on the cultural biases of the church leadership

I didn't' mention the church. Why did you? What would a psychologist or social scientist say about that? Projecting your own biases or fears? Level 3 of Kramer's sheep in wolves clothing matrix? Are you at the confluence of homo-feminist macro-cultural intersectionalism? Is the length of your right index finger correlating with that of people who have a higher "potential to homo-erotic response"?

So much "science".. so little time

[David13]

It's amazing to hear people say "(queers) are 'born that way'" and then turn around and say "gender roles are not fixed, and so a man can become a woman and a woman can become a man."
No one speaks at birth. Yet we constantly see homos try (pathetically) to speak like women. Because they were born speaking that way? Obviously not.
dc

[Fiannan]

Your at Fowler's faith level 2. Look it up.

I did - he was a professor at Emory, the same place a lot of students have totally freaked out because someone wrote "Trump 2016" in chalk on a sidewalk.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... ree-speec/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As for the stages thing, like Kohlberg's model, it allows one to create a model of development that enables one with a particular view to label and in effect stigmatize people who possess views they find inferior to theirs. No real practical applications but gives professors content for lectures I suppose.

[zionminded]

Your at Fowler's faith level 2. Look it up.

I did - he was a professor at Emory, the same place a lot of students have totally freaked out because someone wrote "Trump 2016" in chalk on a sidewalk.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... ree-speec/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As for the stages thing, like Kohlberg's model, it allows one to create a model of development that enables one with a particular view to label and in effect stigmatize people who possess views they find inferior to theirs. No real practical applications but gives professors content for lectures I suppose.

True, it is a framework to understand the human experience, likely not a perfect model, but helpful for forum fodder. ;)

[Darren]

Here is the simple way to look at Gender Orientation.

Match the commitment to the plumbing.

In the gospel is the principle of "commitment," that we force ourselves to behave in predetermined roles.

It is a principle. Stand upon it without excuses.

The rest have their Sodom and Gomorrah party, to their own demise.

God Bless,
Darren

[JohnnyL]

Am I missing something? Maybe I did...

There is a difference between "problems of the flesh" we all (should) war against, and sin.

I don't advocate for SSM. Can it be lonely, obeying the commandments? Sure. Just like with every other problem of the flesh, there are "negative consequences" for overcoming them. Is that not correct? Whatever we are called upon in our personal conditions to sacrifice, that is what we need to do.

Commitment really is a key.

While active members often assume those in sin know they are doing wrong, this often is--and isn't--the case. Especially if they haven't been taught the truth, especially by the power of the Holy Ghost, they really might not know, especially if family/ society/ etc. teach have taught otherwise. Look at Lamoni in the BoM--he thought whatever he did was not a sin, until Ammon came and he contemplated it might not be true. What does the BoM show? What does the Bible show? What do the other scriptures show?

What is the best way to teach someone in sin? What is the best way to help someone in sin?

We have prophets and scriptures. They speak against homosexual relationships and for chastity. They don't speak about a whole lot of other things on this topic. Much of the recent changes/ additions to the prophets' understandings have come through STUDY and prayer. With study, yes, you need to be wary and aware.

I suggest a reading of the "Do Mormons Really Want to Know the Truth?" thread.

As my bishop said the other night, "Inspiration follows information". Anyone who is LDS should know the truthfulness of this statement, however we might forget. (This is seen in the elections now, too, lol.) And information is sadly lacking here... So much so that it's painfully obvious to those who are even somewhat informed.

I suggest that if you want to judge something RIGHTEOUSLY, you get informed..

(Homosexual relationships don't really make sense to me, for what's claimed--there's too much "extra" to them. I think the following are signs of emotional problems, showing homosexuality is never natural. Why do homosexual men have boy "girlfriends"? Why is there a ruler, and a submitter, in most every homosexual relationship? Why do men try to be like women, and women try to be like men, especially when they hate the other sex? Why do they assume different ways of talking? If they hate their own sex, why do they hook up with them? Why ...)

[Thinker]

BOYS IN DOMINICAN REPUBLIC DONT GROW PENIS UNTIL AGE 12

This article changes my way of thinking a while back. Notice that although they are born as females and raised as females, they identified with males and were attracted to females. Then....they grew a penis. This should teach us something!

http://www.medicaldaily.com/guevedoces- ... ing-353544

Hermaphrodites represent such a tiny percentage AND I have yet to know of any one single hermaphrodite to demand homosexual "rights."
It's the others of the population who are demanding special legal rights based on sexual substitutes.
"In general: 0.033% to 0.05% of babies are born hermaphrodites."