Spencer W. Kimball: Example of a Revelation by the Power of the Holy Ghost

[Zathura]

Edward L. Spencer was the Son of President Kimball, and he has written quite a bit. I've only gotten around to a few of his works, but I'd like to share something from one of his studies.

https://ojs.lib.byu.edu/spc/index.php/B ... /7325/6974" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is a long paper, so it'll take a good amount of time to run you through the history of the Priesthood/Blacks policy and how the change was made. I want to point out the most important parts.

First, I see many people say that it was Joseph Smith that started this policy in the first place and didn't allow blacks to have the priesthood. The Author wrote the following:"On May 25, Mark E. Petersen called President Kimball’s attention to an article that proposed the priesthood policy had begun with Brigham Young, not Joseph Smith, and he suggested that the President might wish to consider this factor." Apparently Elder Mark E. Peterson thought it was a strong possibility, and urged Spencer W. Kimball to take this into consideration. The source for article that Mark E. Peterson mentioned is: Bush, “Mormonism’s Negro Doctrine,” 11

Now, this study shows how much time and contemplation President Kimball put into seeking an answer regarding this question. It notes how often he fasted and how many hours he spent praying in the Temple. He often felt peaceful, he felt a lingering feeling on his chest that it was time to make the Change.NOTE HERE, that THIS WAS NOT SUFFICIENT. He did not take this as the answer he was seeking.He continued seeking and spoke often with the other members of the quorum on the subject. Anyways, it all came down to a day where they were all fasting.

President Kimball asked if he could lead them in prayer.

Elder McKonkie wrote what happened afterwards:
"It was as though another day of Pentecost came.] On the day of Pen- tecost in the Old World it is recorded that cloven tongues of rested upon the people. they were trying to put into words what is impossible to express directly. there are no words to describe the sensation, but simultaneously the Twelve and the three members of the First Presidency had the Holy Ghost descend upon them and they knew that God had manifested his will. . . . I had had some remarkable spiritual experiences before, particularly in connection with my call as an apostle, but nothing of this magnitude.
All of the Brethren at once knew and felt in their souls what the answer to the importuning petition of President Kimball was. . . . Some of the Brethren were weeping. All were sober and somewhat overcome. When President Kimball stood up, several of the Brethren, in turn, threw their arms around him"

Elder Hinckley said the following:
" There was a hallowed and sancti ed atmosphere in the room. For me, it felt as if a conduit opened between the heavenly throne and the kneeling, pleading prophet. . . . And by the power of the Holy Ghost there came to that prophet an assurance that the thing for which he prayed was right, that the time had come. . . .
There was not the sound “as of a rushing mighty wind,” there were not “cloven tongues like as of re” as there had been on the Day of Pentecost. . . .
. . . But the voice of the Spirit whispered with certainty into our minds and our very souls.
It was for us, at least for me personally, as I imagine it was with Enos, who said concerning his remarkable experience, “. . . behold, the voice of the Lord came into my mind.”
. . . Not one of us who was present on that occasion was ever quite the same after that"


The Author goes on to mention what other Members of the quorum said about the experience :
"Elder David B. Haight recalled, “ e Spirit touched each of our hearts with the same message in the same way. Each was witness to a transcen- dent heavenly event.”163 He spoke of the event again eighteen years later: “I was there. I was there with the outpouring of the Spirit in that room so strong that none of us could speak a erwards. We just le quietly to go back to the o ce. No one could say anything because of the heav- enly spiritual experience.”164 Elder Marvin J. Ashton called it “the most intense spiritual impression I’ve ever felt.”165 Elder Packer said that during the prayer all present became aware what the decision must be."

What they received was an answer by the power of the Holy Ghost. THAT is the power of the Holy Ghost, THAT is almost identical to a baptism of fire. THAT is an example of what we must do to receive answers. President Kimball spent hours and hours, weeks of praying and fasting, he had made a decision as a result of peace, joy etc. that he felt while seeking, but it wasn't enough because he hadn't received an answer by the power of the Holy Ghost.

You want to follow the Prophet? Follow his example here, where he kept seeking until he actually KNEW instead of really really believing he was making the right choice.

Now, none of this even establishes that Blacks weren't supposed to have the priesthood in the beginning, it only shows that it was God's will that they receive the priesthood. It shows that the Lord can, and has, led Church Leaders by the power of the Holy Ghost after many weeks of diligent seeking.

As long as Church Leaders make decisions after receiving revelation IN THIS MANNER, we can follow them because they are inspired of the Holy Ghost.However, It would be foolish to assume everything they say and do is inspired in this manner, which is why we must seek to receive our own revelation and grow closer to Christ.

I'm grateful for the Holy Ghost and the revelations that come with it, I am grateful for Spencer W. Kimball and the time he put into seeking the Lord's will, and that he did not settle with making a decision based off of warm fuzzies, but that he continued to seek, knowing that eventually God answer him with power, and FIRE.


If you want the sources, they are found in the link I provided at the beginning of the post.

[Thethirddoctor]

There was also a great deal of socio-political pressure...

[Zathura]

There was also a great deal of socio-political pressure...

The link I provided talks a great deal about this

[Zathura]

Also, this link also shows in great detail how it is that Church Leaders make decisions and what precedes the decision.

[Zathura]

“Some people would try to figure it out that I had a personal visitation from the Almighty as in the First Vision. I would not want to make the revelation different from what it was. When I meet little children they sometimes look up at me and say, ‘Do you talk to Jesus?’ It sets my heart in a whirl, because their simple expectations are so high.” Still, he had no doubts that he had received a revelation and that its source was divine strong, distinct, sacred impression he experienced banished for him even the thought of questioning its source."

[Zathura]

No wonder even "the Snuffer" Believed Spencer W. Kimball was a true prophet

[ebenezerarise]

There was also a great deal of socio-political pressure...

And there was for DECADES on this topic.

[Obrien]

Edward L. Spencer was the Son of President Kimball, and he has written quite a bit. I've only gotten around to a few of his works, but I'd like to share something from one of his studies.

https://ojs.lib.byu.edu/spc/index.php/B ... /7325/6974" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is a long paper, so it'll take a good amount of time to run you through the history of the Priesthood/Blacks policy and how the change was made. I want to point out the most important parts.

First, I see many people say that it was Joseph Smith that started this policy in the first place and didn't allow blacks to have the priesthood. The Author wrote the following:"On May 25, Mark E. Petersen called President Kimball’s attention to an article that proposed the priesthood policy had begun with Brigham Young, not Joseph Smith, and he suggested that the President might wish to consider this factor." Apparently Elder Mark E. Peterson thought it was a strong possibility, and urged Spencer W. Kimball to take this into consideration. The source for article that Mark E. Peterson mentioned is: Bush, “Mormonism’s Negro Doctrine,” 11

Now, this study shows how much time and contemplation President Kimball put into seeking an answer regarding this question. It notes how often he fasted and how many hours he spent praying in the Temple. He often felt peaceful, he felt a lingering feeling on his chest that it was time to make the Change.NOTE HERE, that THIS WAS NOT SUFFICIENT. He did not take this as the answer he was seeking.He continued seeking and spoke often with the other members of the quorum on the subject. Anyways, it all came down to a day where they were all fasting.

President Kimball asked if he could lead them in prayer.

Elder McKonkie wrote what happened afterwards:
"It was as though another day of Pentecost came.] On the day of Pen- tecost in the Old World it is recorded that cloven tongues of rested upon the people. they were trying to put into words what is impossible to express directly. there are no words to describe the sensation, but simultaneously the Twelve and the three members of the First Presidency had the Holy Ghost descend upon them and they knew that God had manifested his will. . . . I had had some remarkable spiritual experiences before, particularly in connection with my call as an apostle, but nothing of this magnitude.
All of the Brethren at once knew and felt in their souls what the answer to the importuning petition of President Kimball was. . . . Some of the Brethren were weeping. All were sober and somewhat overcome. When President Kimball stood up, several of the Brethren, in turn, threw their arms around him"

Elder Hinckley said the following:
" There was a hallowed and sancti ed atmosphere in the room. For me, it felt as if a conduit opened between the heavenly throne and the kneeling, pleading prophet. . . . And by the power of the Holy Ghost there came to that prophet an assurance that the thing for which he prayed was right, that the time had come. . . .
There was not the sound “as of a rushing mighty wind,” there were not “cloven tongues like as of re” as there had been on the Day of Pentecost. . . .
. . . But the voice of the Spirit whispered with certainty into our minds and our very souls.
It was for us, at least for me personally, as I imagine it was with Enos, who said concerning his remarkable experience, “. . . behold, the voice of the Lord came into my mind.”
. . . Not one of us who was present on that occasion was ever quite the same after that"


The Author goes on to mention what other Members of the quorum said about the experience :
"Elder David B. Haight recalled, “ e Spirit touched each of our hearts with the same message in the same way. Each was witness to a transcen- dent heavenly event.”163 He spoke of the event again eighteen years later: “I was there. I was there with the outpouring of the Spirit in that room so strong that none of us could speak a erwards. We just le quietly to go back to the o ce. No one could say anything because of the heav- enly spiritual experience.”164 Elder Marvin J. Ashton called it “the most intense spiritual impression I’ve ever felt.”165 Elder Packer said that during the prayer all present became aware what the decision must be."

What they received was an answer by the power of the Holy Ghost. THAT is the power of the Holy Ghost, THAT is almost identical to a baptism of fire. THAT is an example of what we must do to receive answers. President Kimball spent hours and hours, weeks of praying and fasting, he had made a decision as a result of peace, joy etc. that he felt while seeking, but it wasn't enough because he hadn't received an answer by the power of the Holy Ghost.

You want to follow the Prophet? Follow his example here, where he kept seeking until he actually KNEW instead of really really believing he was making the right choice.

Now, none of this even establishes that Blacks weren't supposed to have the priesthood in the beginning, it only shows that it was God's will that they receive the priesthood. It shows that the Lord can, and has, led Church Leaders by the power of the Holy Ghost after many weeks of diligent seeking.

As long as Church Leaders make decisions after receiving revelation IN THIS MANNER, we can follow them because they are inspired of the Holy Ghost.However, It would be foolish to assume everything they say and do is inspired in this manner, which is why we must seek to receive our own revelation and grow closer to Christ.

I'm grateful for the Holy Ghost and the revelations that come with it, I am grateful for Spencer W. Kimball and the time he put into seeking the Lord's will, and that he did not settle with making a decision based off of warm fuzzies, but that he continued to seek, knowing that eventually God answer him with power, and FIRE.


If you want the sources, they are found in the link I provided at the beginning of the post.

Stahura - I underlined and turned blue a bit of your post above. The LDS culture is ingrained with this hours and weeks and years worth of pleading, fasting and praying for answers. I hear of many people (LDS and non-LDS) who get powerful witnesses and answers unexpectedly or with seemingly little effort on their part. I know it happens - it has happened to me. Maybe if we had more faith and accepted the answers when they came, we would experience less "wrestle" to get answers. In the book, Edward Kimball says that SK had the lingering impression that it was time to change the purported doctrine - had SK ACTED on that inspiration, maybe the change would have come long before. I do not know, and arm chair quarterbacking is much easier than wrestling with an issue in live time, but maybe if we paid better attention to the inklings of the Spirit we'd have more and greater answers. Thoughts?

[Zathura]

Stahura - I underlined and turned blue a bit of your post above. The LDS culture is ingrained with this hours and weeks and years worth of pleading, fasting and praying for answers. I hear of many people (LDS and non-LDS) who get powerful witnesses and answers unexpectedly or with seemingly little effort on their part. I know it happens - it has happened to me. Maybe if we had more faith and accepted the answers when they came, we would experience less "wrestle" to get answers. In the book, Edward Kimball says that SK had the lingering impression that it was time to change the purported doctrine - had SK ACTED on that inspiration, maybe the change would have come long before. I do not know, and arm chair quarterbacking is much easier than wrestling with an issue in live time, but maybe if we paid better attention to the inklings of the Spirit we'd have more and greater answers. Thoughts?

My dear friend! Here's my thoughts:

It's not so much about praying for long periods of time as it is about praying UNTIL you receive.

It's about praying and fasting UNTIL you receive an answer by the power of the Holy Ghost. That could be 5 minutes ( I have experienced this), it could be 3 weeks ( I have also experienced this). It could be a year.( I haven't experienced this because I would have given up long before this hehe )

The answer doesn't come in our time. If we are seeking earnestly and fasting like President Kimball did, the rest is not up to us.It's up to God. There's nothing more we can do to cause the answer to come more quickly, unless perhaps you wrestle with God and choose to pray for a whole day and night like Enos did.(This is one of a few examples that we can indeed persuade God to do something if try hard enough)

One time I knelt down, broken hearted, and told God I would not get off my knees until I obtained what I was seeking. Sure enough, by the time I left my knees, I had obtained EXACTLY what I sought, and I knew it was what I was seeking.The Answer was the same type of answer the President Kimball had in this example.

Another time, I read a scripture and felt a prompting to pray and 5 minutes later I was recovering from one of the best moments of my life. This answer was also identical to the experienced described by the brethren in the OP.

Another time, it took weeks. Every morning and night I was disciplined, I was sincere, I was diligent, but for whatever reason, God wouldn't give me what I was asking. I was more diligent than every other time I had received an answer. For some reason though, God didn't answer me. After weeks, he finally did.
If I had given up and said "I probably already received the answer, that's why God hasn't given me what I'm asking" or said "I'm not meant to know the answer", then I never would have received those answers.

President Kimball had the lingering impression, yes. But He was smart(and humble and faithful) enough to know that it wasn't the answer he was seeking. This is where members get stuck and start saying they "know" things when they really just really really believe. President Kimball had a lingering impression, but he clearly didn't know it was God's will until he had the experience that was quoted in the OP.

President Kimball is a perfect example because even though he had this lingering impression, he did not want to make a decision unless he had the proper confirmation from God that it was the right decision. Sure enough, he eventually received an actual answer by the actual power of the Holy Ghost.

[Zathura]

Thoughts?

What are your thoughts on my thoughts?

[Obrien]

Thoughts?

What are your thoughts on my thoughts?

My experience has been that if I waited for one of those clear HG "downloads" before making decisions, I would almost never make decisions. I'm a more "line upon line", "here a little there a little" guy. I believe that the Lord put us here to study things out, think, decide, act, learn, repent, modify and otherwise stumble our way through the darkness that is mortality. Hopefully we stumble less (both in terms of frequency and amplitude) as we gain experience. If we have a critical need, I believe He'll give us what we need to know. I don't think He's disinterested in us and our earth life, but I know from having kids that the best way for them to learn something is to figure it out and do it. Guidance from others, even those who have relevant experience, is helpful, but following exact steps from someone else does not lead to the growth that comes by figuring out and doing things yourself.

I am very willing (tho not always happy) to make mistakes in my course through life if it means I learn a needed lesson. Virtually no mistake is spiritually fatal. I'd rather make mistakes and learn from experience than follow a course laid out by someone else. I try to allow all people that same latitude. I have faith that the atonement can cleanse us from any of our faults. It worked for the woman caught in adultery, so why not for me?

I don't know if that response is adequate, but those are my beliefs about inspiration and un-inspiration.

[Zathura]

A bump for those who wish to Follow the Prophet Spencer W. Kimball and his example.

[Zathura]

Thoughts?

What are your thoughts on my thoughts?

My experience has been that if I waited for one of those clear HG "downloads" before making decisions, I would almost never make decisions. I'm a more "line upon line", "here a little there a little" guy. I believe that the Lord put us here to study things out, think, decide, act, learn, repent, modify and otherwise stumble our way through the darkness that is mortality. Hopefully we stumble less (both in terms of frequency and amplitude) as we gain experience. If we have a critical need, I believe He'll give us what we need to know. I don't think He's disinterested in us and our earth life, but I know from having kids that the best way for them to learn something is to figure it out and do it. Guidance from others, even those who have relevant experience, is helpful, but following exact steps from someone else does not lead to the growth that comes by figuring out and doing things yourself.

I am very willing (tho not always happy) to make mistakes in my course through life if it means I learn a needed lesson. Virtually no mistake is spiritually fatal. I'd rather make mistakes and learn from experience than follow a course laid out by someone else. I try to allow all people that same latitude. I have faith that the atonement can cleanse us from any of our faults. It worked for the woman caught in adultery, so why not for me?

I don't know if that response is adequate, but those are my beliefs about inspiration and un-inspiration.

That's just fine I agree with most of it anyway!

[Zathura]

.

[EdGoble]

Edward L. Spencer was the Son of President Kimball, and he has written quite a bit. I've only gotten around to a few of his works, but I'd like to share something from one of his studies.

https://ojs.lib.byu.edu/spc/index.php/B ... /7325/6974" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is a long paper, so it'll take a good amount of time to run you through the history of the Priesthood/Blacks policy and how the change was made. I want to point out the most important parts.

First, I see many people say that it was Joseph Smith that started this policy in the first place and didn't allow blacks to have the priesthood. The Author wrote the following:"On May 25, Mark E. Petersen called President Kimball’s attention to an article that proposed the priesthood policy had begun with Brigham Young, not Joseph Smith, and he suggested that the President might wish to consider this factor." Apparently Elder Mark E. Peterson thought it was a strong possibility, and urged Spencer W. Kimball to take this into consideration. The source for article that Mark E. Peterson mentioned is: Bush, “Mormonism’s Negro Doctrine,” 11

Now, this study shows how much time and contemplation President Kimball put into seeking an answer regarding this question. It notes how often he fasted and how many hours he spent praying in the Temple. He often felt peaceful, he felt a lingering feeling on his chest that it was time to make the Change.NOTE HERE, that THIS WAS NOT SUFFICIENT. He did not take this as the answer he was seeking.He continued seeking and spoke often with the other members of the quorum on the subject. Anyways, it all came down to a day where they were all fasting.

President Kimball asked if he could lead them in prayer.

Elder McKonkie wrote what happened afterwards:
"It was as though another day of Pentecost came.] On the day of Pen- tecost in the Old World it is recorded that cloven tongues of rested upon the people. they were trying to put into words what is impossible to express directly. there are no words to describe the sensation, but simultaneously the Twelve and the three members of the First Presidency had the Holy Ghost descend upon them and they knew that God had manifested his will. . . . I had had some remarkable spiritual experiences before, particularly in connection with my call as an apostle, but nothing of this magnitude.
All of the Brethren at once knew and felt in their souls what the answer to the importuning petition of President Kimball was. . . . Some of the Brethren were weeping. All were sober and somewhat overcome. When President Kimball stood up, several of the Brethren, in turn, threw their arms around him"

Elder Hinckley said the following:
" There was a hallowed and sancti ed atmosphere in the room. For me, it felt as if a conduit opened between the heavenly throne and the kneeling, pleading prophet. . . . And by the power of the Holy Ghost there came to that prophet an assurance that the thing for which he prayed was right, that the time had come. . . .
There was not the sound “as of a rushing mighty wind,” there were not “cloven tongues like as of re” as there had been on the Day of Pentecost. . . .
. . . But the voice of the Spirit whispered with certainty into our minds and our very souls.
It was for us, at least for me personally, as I imagine it was with Enos, who said concerning his remarkable experience, “. . . behold, the voice of the Lord came into my mind.”
. . . Not one of us who was present on that occasion was ever quite the same after that"


The Author goes on to mention what other Members of the quorum said about the experience :
"Elder David B. Haight recalled, “ e Spirit touched each of our hearts with the same message in the same way. Each was witness to a transcen- dent heavenly event.”163 He spoke of the event again eighteen years later: “I was there. I was there with the outpouring of the Spirit in that room so strong that none of us could speak a erwards. We just le quietly to go back to the o ce. No one could say anything because of the heav- enly spiritual experience.”164 Elder Marvin J. Ashton called it “the most intense spiritual impression I’ve ever felt.”165 Elder Packer said that during the prayer all present became aware what the decision must be."

What they received was an answer by the power of the Holy Ghost. THAT is the power of the Holy Ghost, THAT is almost identical to a baptism of fire. THAT is an example of what we must do to receive answers. President Kimball spent hours and hours, weeks of praying and fasting, he had made a decision as a result of peace, joy etc. that he felt while seeking, but it wasn't enough because he hadn't received an answer by the power of the Holy Ghost.

You want to follow the Prophet? Follow his example here, where he kept seeking until he actually KNEW instead of really really believing he was making the right choice.

Now, none of this even establishes that Blacks weren't supposed to have the priesthood in the beginning, it only shows that it was God's will that they receive the priesthood. It shows that the Lord can, and has, led Church Leaders by the power of the Holy Ghost after many weeks of diligent seeking.

As long as Church Leaders make decisions after receiving revelation IN THIS MANNER, we can follow them because they are inspired of the Holy Ghost.However, It would be foolish to assume everything they say and do is inspired in this manner, which is why we must seek to receive our own revelation and grow closer to Christ.

I'm grateful for the Holy Ghost and the revelations that come with it, I am grateful for Spencer W. Kimball and the time he put into seeking the Lord's will, and that he did not settle with making a decision based off of warm fuzzies, but that he continued to seek, knowing that eventually God answer him with power, and FIRE.


If you want the sources, they are found in the link I provided at the beginning of the post.

Stahura - I underlined and turned blue a bit of your post above. The LDS culture is ingrained with this hours and weeks and years worth of pleading, fasting and praying for answers. I hear of many people (LDS and non-LDS) who get powerful witnesses and answers unexpectedly or with seemingly little effort on their part. I know it happens - it has happened to me. Maybe if we had more faith and accepted the answers when they came, we would experience less "wrestle" to get answers. In the book, Edward Kimball says that SK had the lingering impression that it was time to change the purported doctrine - had SK ACTED on that inspiration, maybe the change would have come long before. I do not know, and arm chair quarterbacking is much easier than wrestling with an issue in live time, but maybe if we paid better attention to the inklings of the Spirit we'd have more and greater answers. Thoughts?

I feel that he wanted the whole Quorum of apostles and fp to have absolute certainty. also, if you look at other times when they tried, it was always derailed by someone from the old guard. it was a change of such import that they all needed a pentacostal witness for surety

[djinwa]

“Some people would try to figure it out that I had a personal visitation from the Almighty as in the First Vision. I would not want to make the revelation different from what it was. When I meet little children they sometimes look up at me and say, ‘Do you talk to Jesus?’ It sets my heart in a whirl, because their simple expectations are so high.” Still, he had no doubts that he had received a revelation and that its source was divine strong, distinct, sacred impression he experienced banished for him even the thought of questioning its source."

Gee, I wonder why the expectations of children are so high? Perhaps because that is what we teach them? That we have a prophet with special connection to God, but turns out they have to struggle to get answers just like the rest of us. Based on feelings.

[Michelle]

He received a revelation within his stewardship after "study and faith." That is the pattern we must follow.

I say this to caution those who would use it to justify contradicting the prophets because they believe they receive a witness that was not, in fact, from God. It may be something outside their stewardship, or it may just be a contradiction of the doctrines and principles of the gospel already revealed through proper authority.

Doctrine and Covenants 50 addresses how to determine if a revelation is from God or not and warns of the many false spirits abroad and how they deceive those who believe they are receiving a revelation from God.

[Zathura]

Want to bump this, I still believe that this is one of the few true revelations given to modern church leaders that are akin to the ones received by Joseph Smith.

[Zathura]

The ironic thing is that people are often put off and get mad at people like myself for pointing out that it was Brigham Young that started this ban, and not Joseph.

As I show in the OP, even the Apostle Mark E Peterson points this fact out to Spencer W. Kimball. Will you lash out at him too then?

[Arandur]

I agree that we mostly set our sights too low in terms of receiving revelation, with the caveat that in most cases we don’t want to make our action contingent on receiving revelations “by fire” so to speak. Often acting in faith is part of the seeking that’s required. I’d say more than half the time, answers to my petitions include an indication that God wants me to learn and/or accomplish more by my own (divinely guided) efforts without an explicit, clear answer of the character described in this thread, and then bring the results of that to Him. Given that point, I still think we give up too easily if we simply assume God’s will is that we “act in faith” with no clear revelation when God never actually told us that. Maybe it’s different for others, but I really do consistently find that when I’m not ready to receive some revelation or gift that I’m seeking, I’ll be told that fact by revelation and then pointed in the right direction, when I’m diligent about asking (or even sometimes when I’m not diligent; the Lord is very forgiving).

Similarly, we shortchange ourselves by taking vaguely positive feelings or thoughts as definitive. Such feelings and thoughts can be and often are inspiration, but I will firmly and confidently say that this type of inspiration is meant to be a beginning; an indication that our hearts and minds are opening to increased light. The divine line of communication is opening! It’s a sprout; a sign that the spiritual work we are doing can and will yield fruit - often very precious fruit - if we continue as we have commenced. President Kimball found such fruit, by all accounts. Personally, I’m somewhat more inclined than Stahura to think that in general the other modern leaders of the church do too. But to me that’s not an especially important question.

The more important questions are “Why don’t I keep seeking for more light? What’s in my way? What would inspire me to overcome, and claim such blessings to a greater degree?”

[Cheetos]

The Spirit works in a myriad of ways and manifests itself different with people according to their understanding and knowledge. We should all realize as baptized and confirmed members that everyone of us has the companionship of the spirit to lead and guide us in "every" decision as long as we are living righteously. Sometimes we need great spiritual manifestations to help us realize the HG is there. What we should be striving to acknowledge though is that the HG teaches and leads us in "all things" and brings "all things" to our remembrance.

[Arandur]

Some thoughts and questions:

The Spirit works in a myriad of ways and manifests itself different with people according to their understanding and knowledge. Agreed. We should all realize as baptized and confirmed members that everyone of us has the companionship of the spirit to lead and guide us in "every" decision as long as we are living righteously. I agree, but it depends on what you mean by “living righteously”. The particular conditions are laid out in the sacrament prayers, among other places. Still, there are questions we can ask. What does it mean to be willing to take upon us Christ’s name? What does it mean to always remember Him? What commandments are we to keep? If none of us are perfect, how do we know we’re actually doing this in a way that we can receive the promised blessing? Also, how is the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost distinct from the Light of Christ, which is given to all? Sometimes we need great spiritual manifestations to help us realize the HG is there. It’s true, sometimes we do. There are other purposes for these manifestations too though, right? They provide greater clarity, certainty, and peace, help us better understand and align with God’s will, increase faith, grant us great knowledge, purify our hearts, and so much more. The quieter, continual presence of the Holy Ghost does most or all of these things too, of course, though in different degrees for different things. I would only add that it’s important for our eternal progression that we (1) ensure that we are actually living according to our covenants and become certain, by a witness from God, that we are actually receiving the Holy Ghost with all of these blessings, and not holding something back from God and ignoring it, and (2) not be content with the bare minimum or with the light we already have, and be willing to ask the right questions, make the right changes, and pay a greater price to receive more. This doesn’t discount the quieter blessings any more than the Book of Mormon discounts the Bible; it’s simply an expression of the desire to be even closer to the Lord and thereby become a more effective instrument in His hands to serve others. What we should be striving to acknowledge though is that the HG teaches and leads us in "all things" and brings "all things" to our remembrance. This is correct. Do you think it means that we should assume the Holy Ghost is guiding our every decision, or that the Holy Ghost’s role is to do so, and therefore we should earnestly invite and seek His presence in all things? Or both, or something else?

[Zathura]

The Spirit works in a myriad of ways and manifests itself different with people according to their understanding and knowledge. We should all realize as baptized and confirmed members that everyone of us has the companionship of the spirit to lead and guide us in "every" decision as long as we are living righteously. Sometimes we need great spiritual manifestations to help us realize the HG is there. What we should be striving to acknowledge though is that the HG teaches and leads us in "all things" and brings "all things" to our remembrance.

"Sometimes we need great spiritual manifestations to help us realize the HG is there".

"I don't need great manifestations"

"That's sign seeking"

. It's such a shame that the Gospel has been watered down, that the Power of the Holy Ghost has been replaced with small warm happy fuzzies, feelings that are felt in literally every other Christian congregation.

The prophets of old fasted for days and days and sacrificed ALL THINGS to obtain the knowledge of the things that we think we also know.

Do you really suppose Alma and Nephi and Moroni suffered all kinds of afflictions and fasted for days and denied themselves of all the things the world offers just to go and feel warm fuzzies?
Do you really suppose that you come to know the same things as the prophets old of without doing the same things that Alma and Nephi and Moroni had to do? Such foolishness.

The prophets of old fasted and prayed and suffered afflictions of all kinds, always staying faithful UNTIL they obtained powerful manifestations of the Holy Ghost, or the visitation of Angels, or visitations of God himself and somehow we, in 2019, assume that we obtain the same knowledge through a completely different experience doing a 100th of what they had to do to obtain their knowledge.

Alma said :

46 Behold, I say unto you they are made known unto me by the Holy Spirit of God. Behold, I have fasted and prayed many days that I might know these things of myself. And now I do know of myself that they are true; for the Lord God hath made them manifest unto me by his Holy Spirit; and this is the spirit of revelation which is in me.

He is not referring to warm fuzzies, or "peace" or what you suppose is "joy". That does not give you a knowledge of things. They fast and prayed many days in order to receive a great and miraculous manifestation of the Holy Ghost, to have the Holy Ghost come upon with them power.

If you think that someone suggests you need this is sign seeking or faithless, then you do not understand what you condemn. With these experiences come pure intelligence and knowledge by the Holy Ghost, and until such a person shed's their unbelief and experiences it for themselves, they'll continue receiving the fruits of unbelief.

If you are seeking knowledge in any point of the Gospel, any point or feeling or emotion or "nudge" is just that. It's a nudge, an approval that you are on the correct course. Do not suppose that is the answer. Move on, continue, march forward until you obtain a true knowledge in that point. It's not about the experience, it's not about having "cool stories" , it's not about feeling "better" than others. It's that the Lord provides instant knowledge and understanding through those experiences. Just like the Mighty Change happens in an instant, just like immediately after the Baptism of Fire and Holy Ghost you simply have an instant knowledge that Jesus is your Savior, a knowledge you realize you did not have 10 seconds prior, you too will have instant understanding of other things when you do what Alma did.

When you plant a seed, is all done when you see the plant sprout? Of course not, yet this is what many do when they suppose they have received revelation. "OH! Warm fuzzie! All done!. No, you feed it, you water it and take care of it. When the tree is fully grown, is it done? NO! It must still bring forth fruit!

[Zathura]

I agree that we mostly set our sights too low in terms of receiving revelation, with the caveat that in most cases we don’t want to make our action contingent on receiving revelations “by fire” so to speak. Often acting in faith is part of the seeking that’s required. I’d say more than half the time, answers to my petitions include an indication that God wants me to learn and/or accomplish more by my own (divinely guided) efforts without an explicit, clear answer of the character described in this thread, and then bring the results of that to Him.

I agree, but I think it depends on what you're looking for. If you are looking for the truth concerning a point of Doctrine(The Atonement, the Doctrine of Christ, Resurrection, Faith etc.), then it is foolish to assume that you will obtain a knowledge of this through small warm fuzzies when the prophets in the scriptures fasted for days and sacrificed all things until the Lord "Visited them" or the "Spirit wrought upon them" or they were "Filled with the Spirit". (All great manifestations far beyond "warm fuzzies)

If you are looking for advice , or what you should do, I think that the Lord will reveal this to you through a myriad of ways. You might have a maze to walk through, he might teach you through other people etc. In these instances however, it should not be confused with the power of the Holy Ghost.

Given that point, I still think we give up too easily if we simply assume God’s will is that we “act in faith” with no clear revelation when God never actually told us that. Maybe it’s different for others, but I really do consistently find that when I’m not ready to receive some revelation or gift that I’m seeking, I’ll be told that fact by revelation and then pointed in the right direction, when I’m diligent about asking (or even sometimes when I’m not diligent; the Lord is very forgiving).

In my experience I'm never told that I'm not ready, I just fall flat on my face. Either I get burnt out, or I murmur and complain to God, or I become lazy or sin. Normally when the Lord , in his own time, finally does grant me the manifestation that I've been seeking, my mind is reverted to previous experiences and I'm given to understand that I really was getting ahead of myself.

Similarly, we shortchange ourselves by taking vaguely positive feelings or thoughts as definitive. Such feelings and thoughts can be and often are inspiration, but I will firmly and confidently say that this type of inspiration is meant to be a beginning; an indication that our hearts and minds are opening to increased light. The divine line of communication is opening! It’s a sprout; a sign that the spiritual work we are doing can and will yield fruit - often very precious fruit - if we continue as we have commenced. President Kimball found such fruit, by all accounts. Personally, I’m somewhat more inclined than Stahura to think that in general the other modern leaders of the church do too. But to me that’s not an especially important question.

The more important questions are “Why don’t I keep seeking for more light? What’s in my way? What would inspire me to overcome, and claim such blessings to a greater degree?”

Amen, Amen, Amen.

[Arandur]

I agree that we mostly set our sights too low in terms of receiving revelation, with the caveat that in most cases we don’t want to make our action contingent on receiving revelations “by fire” so to speak. Often acting in faith is part of the seeking that’s required. I’d say more than half the time, answers to my petitions include an indication that God wants me to learn and/or accomplish more by my own (divinely guided) efforts without an explicit, clear answer of the character described in this thread, and then bring the results of that to Him.

I agree, but I think it depends on what you're looking for. If you are looking for the truth concerning a point of Doctrine(The Atonement, the Doctrine of Christ, Resurrection, Faith etc.), then it is foolish to assume that you will obtain a knowledge of this through small warm fuzzies when the prophets in the scriptures fasted for days and sacrificed all things until the Lord "Visited them" or the "Spirit wrought upon them" or they were "Filled with the Spirit". (All great manifestations far beyond "warm fuzzies)

If you are looking for advice , or what you should do, I think that the Lord will reveal this to you through a myriad of ways. You might have a maze to walk through, he might teach you through other people etc. In these instances however, it should not be confused with the power of the Holy Ghost.

I think we’re more or less in agreement. Line upon line learning via “warm fuzzies” does have its place even in gaining a knowledge of the gospel of Jesus Christ, but not as the conclusion of our seeking. Here, too, it’s meant as an enticement or invitation toward greater light, among other things.

Out of curiosity, when you say “truth” or “knowledge” here, do you mean deeper understanding, certainty of the truthfulness of the doctrine, both, or something else?

Given that point, I still think we give up too easily if we simply assume God’s will is that we “act in faith” with no clear revelation when God never actually told us that. Maybe it’s different for others, but I really do consistently find that when I’m not ready to receive some revelation or gift that I’m seeking, I’ll be told that fact by revelation and then pointed in the right direction, when I’m diligent about asking (or even sometimes when I’m not diligent; the Lord is very forgiving).

In my experience I'm never told that I'm not ready, I just fall flat on my face. Either I get burnt out, or I murmur and complain to God, or I become lazy or sin. Normally when the Lord , in his own time, finally does grant me the manifestation that I've been seeking, my mind is reverted to previous experiences and I'm given to understand that I really was getting ahead of myself.

Interesting. I sure do relate to burning out and to having sin get in my way, but our experiences are still a bit different here. That’s no surprise, but I’ll still have to keep this in mind. It’s helpful to know what’s universal and what’s personal.