going into more debt to pay tithing

[Jlynnp06]

My husband and I recently cracked down and decided we were going to stop using our credit cards. The problem is we also discovered that we can't live without our credit cards. Our total bills monthly (including tithing) will leave us with about $126 for gas, food and supplies. Has anyone else been through this? Does anyone have any comforting advice? I have always willingly paid tithing. We both agree that NOT paying tithing is not an option. But I was hoping maybe others have been through what we are going through. The only change I have made is buying the bare minimum of food. Before I would buy what we wanted and not think twice because I knew we had money available on our credit card. We are not impulsive spenders by any means, but I think we have a lot to work on.

[creator]

"The celestial law requires one-tenth part of all a man's substance which he possesses at the time he comes into the church (See DandC 119:1), and one-tenth part of his annual increase ever after (See DandC 119:4). IF IT REQUIRES ALL MAN CAN EARN TO SUPPORT HIMSELF AND HIS FAMILY, HE IS NOT TITHED AT ALL. The celestial law does not take the mother's and children's bread, neither ought else which they really need for their comfort. The poor that have not of this world's good to spare, but serve and honor God according to the best of their abilities in every other way, shall have a celestial crown in the Eternal Kingdom of our Father." (The Millenial Star, 1847. Orson Hyde, editor)

[creator]

This topic has actually been discussed over and over again:

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plus more.

Be prepared to received different answers to this question from different people (i.e. paying tithing on gross, net, surplus, etc.).

Deciding to stop using your credit cards is a great move! It's liberating.

[2EstablishZion]

The tightrope and personal responsibility to the above advice is the responsibility to live within our means, it is the easiest thing for your "needs" to grow to consume all of your increase. This is where stewardship, heeding the promptings of the spirit, etc. opens the windows of heaven.

[Nan]

I suggest the book the total money makeover. It helped us get out of debt nine years ago and we will be paying off our mortgage this next year. I am forty two. It changed our lives financially

[Dash jones]

Tough question.

For Mormons, I don't know. I know what has been said...to pay your tithing first.

However, they don't define exactly what that 10% is of. This is a good thing for some areas (when you pay 60% taxes, paying another 10% on gross means that you have 30% to live and pay rent on. Much easier if your 10% is on net in those instances...plus it is less likely to have the government come down on the LDS church for indiscriminately taking away people's ability to have shelter and food).

That is up to the individual.

That said, the doctrine is for you to pay your tithing. Pay it first as a faithful LDS member. From there, I think you have options.

One idea is that you tell your Bishop your exact circumstances. In many instances, if the Bishop is actually doing their job (and I have had the SAD experience to know a few that were NOT taken care of and instead starved and one that ended up hospitalized until the US government finally helped out) then they should probably offer what assistance they can (normally this takes place with the Bishops storehouse providing food for your needs). When the Bishops help those who are in need in their ward with food, it is a great blessing. I would say, talk to your Bishop immediately!

Outside of Mormonism, and I only say this out of concern, if you do NOT have a Bishop that is willing to help (at least in the food area) then what you can do is turn to other local organizations. The Catholic church, and I'm certain others, sometimes have areas where they hand out food. Many Catholic Charities will offer food and assistance to ANYONE who needs it. There are also food pantries and places where they hand out food and necessities (these are not soup kitchens, but places where you can get things like a grocery store, though the selection may not be as large and they are limited to what they have in the building typically). These are many times run by religious organizations. If your difficulties are as EXTREME as you say, please be aware that these places exist and you can go to them and get food. It may not help with Gas or supplies, but at least you shouldn't starve. They will try to provide ALL you need.

But first I would advise going to your Bishop. Hopefully the bishop will do as they should and help you out.

[idahommie]

Council with your Bishop, and also get some financial planning advice, which the Bishop may be able to arrange. There is an issue somewhere if you are spending more than you bring in. There is NO SUCH THING as "having money available on a credit card" and I don't mean for that to sound harsh.

[Todd]

Stay out of debt, pay 1/10 of your increase annually and give a generous fast offering. Heeding this advice allowed me to wade through all the "mormon tithing hobbyist" theories and be right with God.

[Desert Roses]

Council with your Bishop, and also get some financial planning advice, which the Bishop may be able to arrange. There is an issue somewhere if you are spending more than you bring in. There is NO SUCH THING as "having money available on a credit card" and I don't mean for that to sound harsh.

Agreed. Your bishop has resources to help you begin to get a handle on your finances. My own experience with this kind of thing (though I didn't have credit card problems): As a single mother, there were times that I had only $100 left to buy food and gas or bus fare to get to work each month. To this day, I have no idea how it worked, but month after month after month, something would happen. One time, my car got an astonishing 60 mpg--but went back to its normal 35 mpg when things got better. Another month, neighbors shared garden produce and extra potatoes. Other times, nothing like that, but just somehow, the numbers on the budget sheet didn't match up to what actually happened, and somehow, everything was taken care of. I lived on a single income at $10 an hour with a $900 rent for quite a while this way. When I was challenged by a talk from my bishop to stretch it a little more and do a fast offering, which I managed to do, the next month I got a job offer for $15 an hour, and was able to find a place to rent for $700. Needless to say, that was much easier! Since then, things have just gotten better and better financially, and I make it a rule to NEVER, EVER, miss my tithes and a generous fast offering, as well as never, ever using credit cards for living expenses.

I can't prove it works--sometimes it just does, and when I look at the numbers, it just doesn't add up, but it is always ok. The Lord has never let me (now us since I'm married) down.

[David13]

That's the real problem here.
The problem is not paying tithing.
The problem is managing finances and living within your income.
dc

My compliments to Desert Roses for making it work

[karend77]

Agree with some others to go to your Bishop. He could possibly help you with food at Bishops Storehouse. I think many of us have been where you are. I had no idea how we were going to live on 40% of our former income with hubby going to school, but it is working and tithing is the first thing I pay when I get my paycheck. Our credit cards are used but paid off every month. Some money management counseling and changing some habits and it can be done.

[farmerchick]

My tithing story is so wild, awesome and unbelievable that I won't tell it. For one it's hard to believe and most would think I am prideful. When you pay your tithing, MIRACLES of all kinds happen. Pray about cutting up your credit cards and go through your budget with a fine tooth comb.....cut anything you can. Pray for an extra income opportunity of some sort. If you call on Him, he will answer you. He has sooooo much to give us if we sincerely ask. I too, was a single working mom with three kids and no child support. I had to live this way for almost ten years before I remarried. He heard me...saw my effort...and the windows of heaven have been opened upon me so that I can't contain it all. I'm so thankful for the privilege of paying tithing!

[Squally]

Yes there are a some who receive their "investment" back and attribute it all to living the prosperity gospel teachings of man mingled with scripture income plan; but many live on less because they pay on their income and not on their increase as the Lord has stated. For those who are wealthy, paying on your abundance is easy as takes no food off the table. For those living in scarcity, tithing on income as is being currently taught May vecome a punishment not a blessing and it may take food from children's mouths. And to suggest that someone pay their tithing on their gross income and then turn around and beg for help from the bishop is quite surprising. If paid as the scriptures state, you would only pay on your annual increase; when you have excess you pay your tithes tenth on it annually. And then as a full tithe payer on your increase which may not equal much or none at if you are in poverty, you could still obtain help from the bishop, although as has been stated...... many churches and charities are very giving to those in need without judgment. (I have been given the task to go and look through peoples pantries and fridge by the Bishop before he would give them food. Embarrassing to say the least.)
I suggest you pay on your increase just as the scriptures state...

[idahommie]

"Prosperity Investment Gospel"? I don't think you should ever look at tithing as an investment..........were you overpaying in hopes of extra Blessings of some sort? Odd concept.......

[Squally]

"Prosperity Investment Gospel"? I don't think you should ever look at tithing as an investment..........were you overpaying in hopes of extra Blessings of some sort? Odd concept.......

Just paying any amount more than what the scriptures state is overpaying, so it now is no longer tithing but something else (investment?).

[Thinker]

My husband and I recently cracked down and decided we were going to stop using our credit cards. The problem is we also discovered that we can't live without our credit cards. Our total bills monthly (including tithing) will leave us with about $126 for gas, food and supplies. Has anyone else been through this? Does anyone have any comforting advice? I have always willingly paid tithing. We both agree that NOT paying tithing is not an option. But I was hoping maybe others have been through what we are going through. The only change I have made is buying the bare minimum of food. Before I would buy what we wanted and not think twice because I knew we had money available on our credit card. We are not impulsive spenders by any means, but I think we have a lot to work on.

Good for you for stopping the use of credit cards! :ymparty:
I will second what Brian mentioned about you not being responsible to pay tithes, by the sound of it.
Tithe is based on increase - it says it over and over in scripture - it is NOT based on income.
I'll explain why...

Let's say that 2 men earn the exact same income.
1st man lives at home and his parents pay for all bills and needs, so all of his income is increase.
2nd man is the sole provider of a family of 7, so after paying bills and needs, no increase is left.
If both men are "charged" the same amount of money for tithing, it is anti-God because it is contributing to poverty for the 2nd man and his family.
The law of tithing is largely to help those in need, NOT to increase poverty/burdens.
Deut. 14:28-29 states that 1/3 of TITHES are supposed to be given to those in need.
Some may say it is inapplicable, but I say it is completely applicable and in line with Jesus's greatest commandments (to love others as self - which is loving God)... "which hang all of the law and the prophets."

Another consideration that may help you feel better...
God's monetary system is NOT the US dollar, nor the Euro, nor any other currency.
God's monetary system (according to Jesus) is love. And the more you love, the more heaven will open the windows and pour out love and blessings!

[David13]

"Prosperity Investment Gospel"? I don't think you should ever look at tithing as an investment..........were you overpaying in hopes of extra Blessings of some sort? Odd concept.......

Just paying any amount more than what the scriptures state is overpaying, so it now is no longer tithing but something else (investment?). So yes, most people in our church are paying into the investment plan because they are paying more than the scriptures state as was originally taught.

Wrong. It's a DONATION. It says right on it, DONATION. You even get an email that says "Thanks for your DONATION."
dc

[Jlynnp06]

Thanks for those of you who took the time to respond to my post. I have talked to the bishop and I didn't feel very comforted for our stupid decisions. I'm also pretty stubborn and don't like going to the church for help. My husband and I are going to meet with him and hopefully he can suggest someone to look at our finances to help us come up with a better plan.

We definitely made some careless money decisions because of having our credit cards. I know over spending is what brought us into our debts. I know the problem IS NOT tithing. We just need to fix this problem we have created for our family.

Thanks again for those of you who responded.

[gclayjr]

jlynnp06,

I think you are on the right track. You have recognized and are dealing with something that most don't because of how tough it is. Pride makes us want to be independent and not have anybody point out anything we have done wrong... I think that money is an especially sensitive topic.

I am a financial clerk in our ward. I know that one of the most difficult jobs a bishop has is working with people to help them change financial priorities,. Sometimes it would be easier to "just write checks", but that helps nobody.

I sometimes wonder at those who say they CAN'T pay tithing, because if you pay your tithing, the church will, through the fast offering system, make sure that you have sufficient for your needs.

Knowing this to be true, while also understanding how difficult this is, I admire you for committing yourself to doing the right thing.

Regards,

George Clay

[Thinker]

It breaks my heart to think of how many people are financially suffering needlessly.
It's even more concerning that those who deserve to get at least 1/3 of tithes & are in fatal need, are not getting them.

It is so obvious, yet tradition is blinding many.
Paraphrasing a quote: It is easier to believe a lie heard a thousand times than a truth being heard for the first time.

[Matchmaker]

My husband and I recently cracked down and decided we were going to stop using our credit cards. The problem is we also discovered that we can't live without our credit cards. Our total bills monthly (including tithing) will leave us with about $126 for gas, food and supplies. Has anyone else been through this? Does anyone have any comforting advice? I have always willingly paid tithing. We both agree that NOT paying tithing is not an option. But I was hoping maybe others have been through what we are going through. The only change I have made is buying the bare minimum of food. Before I would buy what we wanted and not think twice because I knew we had money available on our credit card. We are not impulsive spenders by any means, but I think we have a lot to work on.

Yes, I have been where you are. You may have to painfully downsize until you are in better shape financially. The Bishop may help you with food for a while, but it will only be a temporary situation. At one time in my life, we went from a $1,000 a month house into a $535 a month Jr. 1 bedroom (400 sq ft) apartment. We stayed there for about 8 months until we were able to get back on our feet financially. My husband had a company truck to use at work, so we sold our old secondhand car that I used, and I went without a vehicle of my own for 4 months (I was not working outside the home at that time). I used the internet at the library for free and cut out all but the basic channels on my TV. I minimized our phone service. I had no medical insurance on me and bought nothing new unless I got it cheaply at a thrift store. I cut my own hair. It was a challenging time, but when I saw we were making progress on our debt situation, I was more hopeful that this was temporary.

[sushi_chef]

"Another consideration that may help you feel better...
God's monetary system is NOT the US dollar, nor the Euro, nor any other currency.
God's monetary system (according to Jesus) is love. And the more you love, the more heaven will open the windows and pour out love and blessings!"

thats the revelation!! wonderful!!
:-B

[Obrien]

"Prosperity Investment Gospel"? I don't think you should ever look at tithing as an investment..........were you overpaying in hopes of extra Blessings of some sort? Odd concept.......

+1000. Tithing is a way to show the Lord you love other people. You're giving away part of your life to help someone when you tithe directly to those in need. We might disagree on that sentiment, Idahommie, but we totally agree on the inappropriateness of tithing as an investment.

[sushi_chef]

"71 And there shall not any part of it be used, or taken out of the treasury, only by the voice and common consent of the order." (dc 104)

http://bycommonconsent.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
:-B

[idahommie]

"Prosperity Investment Gospel"? I don't think you should ever look at tithing as an investment..........were you overpaying in hopes of extra Blessings of some sort? Odd concept.......

+1000. Tithing is a way to show the Lord you love other people. You're giving away part of your life to help someone when you tithe directly to those in need. We might disagree on that sentiment, Idahommie, but we totally agree on the inappropriateness of tithing as an investment.

Pay your tithing whichever way you and the Lord agree on. We give ours to His Church. We give directly when prompted, but that is excess.....and considered more as just charitable giving.
Something I started with the kids included is also tithing 10% of our time........(not counting callings) It helps do away with some idle time and service is something I feel helps me more than those I serve, I always seem NOT to be my ornery self when helping others......weird how that works.......