Why it is difficult for a good Mormon to be Republican

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Why it is difficult for a good Mormon to be Republican

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The following is an article that someone wanted me to post on my website. After reading it I have found that it doesn't conform to what the LDS Prophets have taught regarding the principles of freedom and the proper role of government.

I am posting it here for your commentary/review, etc...

Why it is difficult for a good Mormon to be a Republican
by Steve Warren

First, let’s make one thing perfectly clear: It isn’t impossible to be a good Mormon and a Republican.

In fact, moderate Republicans often support policies that seem in harmony with gospel principles. The most prominent example may be the late George Romney, the former governor of Michigan who served in President Nixon’s Cabinet. Romney’s progressive stance on social issues was similar to that of today’s moderate Utah Democrats—or of enlightened Republicans in such states as Connecticut, New York, California, Oregon.

Utah Republicanism, on the other hand, has long been hijacked by right-wingers.

But enough of generalities. What follows is an analysis of four major arenas (freedom vs. coercion; the greedy vs. the needy; war vs. peace; pride vs. humility) in which our actions reveal if we are indeed followers of Christ. In each case, I will explain why the views of Democrats are generally more in harmony with the gospel than are the views of Republicans.

Freedom vs. coercion

No people on Earth should be more committed to freedom than Mormons. Here’s why: Mormons believe that God’s spirit children came to Earth in order to prove themselves. They prove themselves by exercising agency to choose right or wrong. Not having freedom to choose hinders God’s plan because it limits man’s ability to progress and renders him a perpetual child whose decisions are made by others.

Mormons also believe that the companion of freedom is responsibility. For example, if a person has progressed beyond the young-child stage and is allowed freedom to choose which foods he will eat, he has the responsibility to choose wisely. If he chooses to eat too many sweets or all meat or no vegetables or fruit, he pays a price for his wrong choices. That price may consist of illness, growing fat, lacking energy or going to an early grave.

When one man exercises agency in a way that hurts another man or restricts another’s freedom, God and man agree that penalties should follow. For instance, the Constitution gives citizens a right to bear arms as long as such arms-bearing is “well-regulated.” If a man abuses that right and guns down his neighbor, strong penalties follow. The severity of those penalties depends upon the circumstances of the abuse. If a man kills another out of carelessness, he ought to be penalized less than a man who is a member of the National Rifle Association who deliberately uses his rifle to rob and kill.

Republicans in general, and Utah Republicans in particular, often demonstrate hostility toward freedom and laxness toward responsibility. Among the areas of public policy where this hostility and laxness are demonstrated are liquor laws, church-state issues and abortion.

In terms of liquor laws, Utah’s establishment has long chosen to aggressively attack residents’ right to consume, advertise and sell alcoholic beverages but has been woefully lax (at least until recent years) in passing laws and in establishing a justice system that would get repeat-offender drunken drivers off the road. Utah’s laws—in particular the private-club rigmarole—have displayed contempt toward responsible drinkers, including visitors from out of state who have no religion-based aversion toward having a drink with dinner. The Republican-dominated Legislature’s response is, “Yes, but because our rules make it tougher for people to get a drink, there will be fewer drinkers and hence fewer irresponsible drinkers.” What they are really saying is that they are unwilling to get tough on lawbreaking drunks, so they make up for it by harassing law-abiding drinkers. This attack on freedom, coupled with indifference toward responsibility, is not in harmony with gospel principles of agency.

When it comes to religion and prayer, Mormon doctrine teaches that man should be free to choose which church he belongs to and whether to engage in religious practices such as prayer.

America’s religious right, including Utah Republicans, have long pushed for prayer in public schools and for posting the Ten Commandments in government buildings. They insist that the Constitution’s guarantee of “free exercise of religion” allows prayer as part of the public school agenda and that it permits them to display the Ten Commandments in public buildings.

What they fail to understand is that in a government setting, one person’s “free exercise” is coercion to someone else. In other words, a prayer at the start of classes is nothing more than government saying to a captive audience (i.e., children, who are required by law to attend) that “this is what is expected, and if any of you little twerps don’t like it, leave the room and return when we are done.” This is coercive. It is government promoting, endorsing and favoring religion. Does prohibiting the saying of a prayer at the start of class show hostility toward religion? Absolutely not. Those who think otherwise should ask themselves: Does prohibiting the singing of a country song at the start of class show hostility toward country music? Of course not. It shows neutrality. It favors neither country nor pop nor rhythm & blues nor rap nor hip-hop. The First Amendment requires neutrality toward religion on public property.

Likewise, stand-alone displays of the Ten Commandments restrict freedom. How? Look closely at the court rulings. In virtually every case where Ten Commandments displays have been removed from public buildings and parks, the courts did not rule that the Ten Commandments could never be posted in such places. The courts merely said that if such plaques or monuments are allowed, then other viewpoints must also be allowed. Sounds fair enough, right? Not to the Christian right. In nearly every case where such a ruling has been made, the “Christian” response has been to proceed in a huffy manner to remove the monuments in order to prevent anyone else from expressing another viewpoint. In other words, what the Christian right clearly wants is freedom for themselves, not for others. They say, “I won’t play the game unless I can make the rules.” It is time for them to let go of their persecution complex.

In clamoring for prayers in schools and the Ten Commandments in public places, conservative Republicans hide a dirty little secret. Their secret is this: They don’t much care if students pray or if the Ten Commandments are on display. You may ask, “But how can this be?” Very simple. Many lawful opportunities are available to hold school prayer and to promote the Ten Commandments, but Christians ignore them. They have failed in their churches to educate young believers about their rights. For instance, they have not told students that no law prevents them from voluntarily gathering during their school lunch break (or during other free time) to have a prayer in a vacant classroom or in an unused part of the gymnasium or in a lunchroom or in a commons area. Before, during and after sporting events, students and other residents can meet at prearranged locations for voluntary prayers. The key word is voluntary. Voluntary prayers don’t coerce. No one is told that they must get up and leave the room if they don’t wish to participate. Yet how many Christian students throughout America take advantage of these opportunities? Precious few. Conservative Christian leaders simply aren’t interested in educating young believers about such opportunities. There’s no money in it. TV preachers know that concerned Christians won’t send money to fight liberals and godless atheists if the word gets out that the liberals and atheists agree that voluntary prayers are legal. The Pat Robertsons and Jerry Falwells, not to mention many Utah Republicans, prefer to grandstand for Jesus by fighting for what they can’t have rather than taking advantage of what they can have.

Republicans have been long on complaining about a so-called loss of freedom to post Ten Commandments in public places, but they have been short on assuming responsibility to ensure that the Ten Commandments are posted in private places where the public at large may view them. How many wealthy Republican owners of sports arenas have bothered to post the Ten Commandments in their buildings where thousands may scrutinize them on a frequent basis? (In fact, with the Jazz struggling in recent years, it should also be noted that no law prevents Larry Miller from setting up prayer booths in the Delta Center.) How many banks, stores, gas stations, private residences, etc., display the Ten Commandments? They are free to do so. Could it be that Republican hearts are more set on imposing religion on property that belongs to all of us than in practicing religion on their own property?

In the matter of abortion, faithful Mormons agree that fewer abortions is a worthy goal. Republicans in America, however, don’t focus on reducing abortions. Rather, they initiate myriad legal battles and attempt to overturn Roe v. Wade. But, you may ask, wouldn’t a successful legal assault on abortion laws end up reducing the number of abortions being performed? Not at all. It would simply reduce the number of legal abortions. In this era of low airfares, if Roe v. Wade were overturned most women needing an abortion who find themselves living in an abortion-restricting state could simply fly to Nevada, Massachusetts, Mexico, Canada, etc., or any other place where laws are less restrictive. Doing so would be a minor expense for females in wealthy families. For poorer women unable to afford the airfare, some would submit to locally performed illegal and less-safe abortions. The legal fight against abortion would not produce fewer abortions. It would merely (1.) shift the venues where abortions are performed, (2.) lead to an increase in unsafe abortions and (3.) create abortion-statistics-reporting that would give the appearance of fewer abortions.

Democrats have promoted sex education, planned parenthood, safe-sex public service announcements and availability of contraceptives to reduce the numbers of abortions. U.S. abortion data suggest their efforts have succeeded. From 1981-1992, a time when Republicans occupied the White House and the position of surgeon general, U.S. abortion rates ranged from 376-435 per 1,000 live births. From 1993-2000, the Clinton years, the abortion rate was 323-375 per 1,000 live births. After Republican President George W. Bush’s first year in office, abortion rates again inched upward. What Republicans have done is grandstand about moral values and abstinence and the wrongness of abortion. What Democrats have done is take steps to reduce abortions.

The LDS stance on abortion is more liberal than that of many conservative Republicans and of many other churches. Mormons are allowed to get abortions and remain members in good standing in these four circumstances: health of the mother, rape, incest and severe fetal deformity. It is a virtual certainty that if abortion law reverts back to the states, some would choose to place restrictions on abortion that are tighter than those advocated by the LDS Church.

Mormons believe that before anyone came to Earth, there was a war in heaven. One side favored God’s plan, in which Christ would redeem mankind and all men would come to Earth with freedom to choose right or wrong. Some of us would choose right and be able to live again in God’s presence. Others would choose evil, and would not be allowed to return to him.

Satan, however, proposed a zero-freedom plan. He volunteered to force men to choose right so that no one would be lost. In his program, the Ten Commandments would be posted in all buildings. Prayers would be uttered in all schools as part of the regular classroom agenda. Public swimming pools would be closed on Sundays (as currently occurs in Provo, Farmington and many other Utah cities where Republicans call the shots) so that everyone would keep the Sabbath holy. No one would be permitted to sin. Mormon doctrine teaches that under Satan’s regime there would be neither freedom nor responsibility.

Their propensity for trumpeting “moral values” cannot hide the fact that today’s Republicans are no friends of freedom and responsibility.

The greedy vs. the needy

Latter-day Saints and other Christians believe that followers of Christ must care for those who are poor and afflicted.

Joseph Smith taught that it is impossible to be a good Latter-day Saint unless one reaches out to the less fortunate. When asked what constitutes good church membership, the prophet said, “He is to feed the hungry, to cloth the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all, wherever he finds them.” Democrats have done a better job than Republicans of embracing this broad commitment to the downtrodden.

The Republican philosophy is that laws and taxes too often unduly hamper the production of income. Republicans assert that capitalism rewards diligence and skill, that real freedom allows individuals to accumulate wealth and that they, not government, should decide whether to bestow a portion of that wealth on those who are less fortunate.

While many wealthy people do impart a portion of their goods to the less fortunate, throughout history the portion of goods that they have imparted has been so small as to guarantee that the less fortunate will remain less fortunate. In the late 19th century, the rise of capitalists and industrialist robber barons demonstrated that America cannot rely upon the wealthy to improve the lot of the poor and working classes. The barons plundered the country’s resources, subjecting workers to low pay, long hours and unsafe conditions. Their excesses gave rise to a strong labor union movement coupled with congressional action that restricted their monopolies and depredations. Democrats in Congress, not Republicans, spearheaded these improvements.

Many of today’s multimillionaires and billionaires aren’t far from being robber barons themselves. They pay low salaries in order to maximize profits. After amassing a mountain of money, some turn over a new leaf. They become benefactors, bestowing a portion of their goods upon the society that they have plundered. On the evening news, they are praised for their generosity, which, of course, is always tax deductible.

Democrats are called “bleeding-heart liberals” when they condemn economic inequality, racial profiling, hate crimes and harsher sentences imposed upon minorities than upon whites. But Democrats wear the bleeding heart label proudly. They are outraged that in America a black man who robs $100 from a 7-Eleven can expect several years in prison while a corporate crook in suit and tie who plunders millions upon millions of dollars while gutting the 401(k) plans of thousands of workers can often expect to plea-bargain his way to little or no jail time along with a payback scheme that leaves his victims with pennies on the dollar.

The Democratic view is that government has a constitutional duty to promote the general welfare of all Americans. As a result, Democrats generally advocate (and Republicans generally oppose or show little enthusiasm for) initiatives that improve the lives of the less fortunate. These include increasing the minimum wage, tax breaks for lower income Americans, access for the disabled, labor laws that protect workers, aid-to-education programs for poorer schools and disadvantaged students, free school lunch, food stamps, universal health coverage and tough environmental laws.

Wealthy Republicans counter that they deserve their riches because their risk-taking and entrepreneurship benefit mankind with improved technologies and lower-cost products. Mormon scholar Hugh Nibley, a Democrat, has a slightly different take: “There are many who really feel very strongly that those who prosper are good and those who don’t deserve what they have. So we talk about the deserving rich; well, there are no deserving rich. To be rich is to have more than you need. No one deserves more than he needs, as King Benjamin said.”

In the 20th century, programs aimed at improving the lot of lower-income Americans almost always were fostered by Democratic presidents, notably FDR, John Kennedy and LBJ.

Utah itself offers an excellent example of how federal programs are crucial in order to provide a safety net for all of the people. During the Great Depression, Utah ranked in the top 10 in virtually every statistical category of federal relief spending. “Utah would have blown away during the Great Depression except for federal relief; one in four Utahns was on direct relief. The state ranked second in per-capita volume of relief spent,” wrote historian Neil Morgan. In their great time of need, Utahns overwhelmingly demonstrated at the ballot box that they were grateful to have a Democrat (FDR) in the White House.

Utah, the most Mormon and now perhaps the most Republican state in the nation, has long been known as a state where get-rich scams flourish. Among these are pyramid schemes aimed at enriching the few at the entry level while impoverishing the many who climb aboard too late. The Beehive State has been called the fraud capital of the country in national publications and often leads the United States in bankruptcy rates. It is a state where right-to-work laws (i.e., the right to pay low wages) are strong and unions aren’t. As a result of its low wages and business-friendly laws and taxes, it attracts companies that pay low wages. Utah women, in order to make ends meet, join their husbands in the workplace and are employed outside the home at a higher rate than the national average. The economic struggles of families in worker unfriendly, heavily Republican Utah come with a price. The state’s divorce rate is consistently at or above the national average, and the consumption of mood-altering prescription drugs is among the highest in the nation. Not surprisingly, the state to date has had weak laws regulating lobbyists.

Democrats, like Republicans, also believe in free enterprise. Many Democrats are wealthy. They know that a healthy profit incentive increases production and jobs. But they also recognize that a society that offers myriad tax breaks to businesses in order to create jobs is entitled to attach higher taxes to the subsequent increased incomes of those who benefit most from such tax breaks.

BYU professor Richard E. Johnson sums up nicely the conflict between the greedy and the needy: “The inescapable conclusion is that when one person lives a life of luxury in a society or a world of limited and finite resources, others are forced to have less. Many, in fact, have so much less that they will suffer and die, but only after watching their loved ones suffer and die . . . How long can we ignore the scriptural description of socioeconomic inequality as evil? How long will we be guided by the ‘traditions of our fathers’ instead of the Savor of humanity? How long will Church members join mainstream America in not only condoning but promoting and admiring materialistic self-aggrandizement?”

War vs. peace

It almost goes without saying that if a world government existed with the Prince of Peace calling the shots, there would be no war. Nevertheless, the Scriptures make it clear that men are allowed to kill in self-defense or when God commands. (Note: The Jewish “Thou shalt not murder” version of the sixth commandment makes more sense than the “Thou shalt not kill” of the Christian King James version.) The Book of Mormon also declares that nations are justified in making preparations to defend themselves against possible attack.

In the early part of the 20th century, little separated the views of Republicans and Democrats in terms of war and peace. Both parties favored America’s entry into the two world wars. Democrats generally exhibited more support toward Woodrow Wilson’s desire to join the League of Nations, which had as a main purpose the peaceful resolution of international conflicts. In more recent decades, Democrats also have more strongly supported U.S. involvement in the United Nations, which also makes peace a top priority.

The Vietnam War and subsequent conflicts, however, have provided more distinct lines of separation between the two political parties.

At the beginning of the Vietnam War, both parties backed American involvement. They believed America was helping defend South Vietnam against Communist aggression. Only two members of Congress, both Democrats, opposed the Tonkin Gulf resolution that paved the way for U.S. offensive operations in Vietnam. As the war progressed, however, it became clear that U.S. involvement was a mistake. (Decades later, former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara admitted, “We were terribly wrong.”)

By 1967, prominent Democrats, including J. W. Fulbright, George McGovern, Frank Church and Eugene McCarthy, were joining fellow Democrat Wayne Morse, the earliest prominent opponent of the war, in speaking against the war.

For Republican backers of the war, a magic moment occurred in 1967. Out of the blue, they received a golden opportunity to repent. The moment arrived when Michigan Gov. George Romney, leading in polls of contenders for the 1968 GOP presidential nomination, said that he had been “brainwashed” by President Johnson into backing an unnecessary war. Did conservative Republicans quickly align themselves with the Mormon Republican? It could have been a turning point in history. God was watching. Did Republicans have the vision to call for America to get out immediately, thereby preventing another 1.5 million deaths in Southeast Asia? Not a chance.

Romney’s campaign quickly capsized as Republicans rushed to distance themselves from him. Brainwashed? No way. We’re too smart for that. Utah Republicans, as usual, remained unwavering in their loyal support of a president in time of war.

No institution in Utah appeared more pro-Vietnam War than BYU. Speaker after speaker at the Y., as well as university President Ernest L. Wilkinson, enthusiastically backed the war. It was the patriotic thing to do, they said. BYU administrators ignored a request to provide balance by inviting Wayne Morse to campus to counter the pro-war propagandists. The reason I mention BYU’s support is that people and institutions are accountable for the positions they take. Organizations that continued to support the Vietnam War gave the White House, Pentagon and congressional hawks an excuse to get out of Vietnam later rather than sooner, thereby escalating the body count.

It is quite clear in hindsight that if the United States had supported rather than sabotaged a Vietnam unification election in 1956, Ho Chi Minh would have won with about 80 percent of the vote (President Eisenhower’s estimate), and the subsequent war and 2.5 million Southeast Asian deaths could have been prevented.

Republicans have also declined to align themselves with democracy in other conflicts. In Central and South America and elsewhere, Republicans have backed U.S. participation in the overthrow of democratically elected leaders. Republicans, not Democrats, were behind Iran-Contra.

Republicans also have pushed more vigorously than Democrats for ever-higher defense budgets that would fill the coffers of the military-industrial complex rather than go toward balancing the budget or toward programs to help the struggling middle class and the afflicted and needy of America and the world. Among the dubious and enormously costly ventures have been Star Wars and the MX missile.

In Utah, Democratic state senator Frances Farley was the staunchest foe of MX, a project that would have based an underground railroad of mobile nuclear missiles in the western desert. Republican Congressman Dan Marriott said that those who oppose it are “people with their heads in the sand.” On May 5, 1981, members of the LDS First Presidency, without a trace of sand on their faces, announced the church’s opposition to MX. Democrats were elated.

From the First Presidency statement: “We repeat our warnings against the terrifying arms race in which the nations of the earth are presently engaged. We deplore in particular the building of vast arsenals of nuclear weaponry. . . . Our fathers came to this western area to establish a base from which to carry the gospel of peace to the peoples of the earth. It is ironic, and a denial of the very essence of that gospel, that in this same general area there should be constructed a mammoth weapons system potentially capable of destroying much of civilization.”

Three years after the United States and heavily Republican Utah overwhelmingly re-elected Richard Nixon while rejecting the peace candidate, Democrat George McGovern, LDS Church President Spencer W. Kimball offered this view of Americans:

“We are a warlike people, easily distracted from our assignment of preparing for the coming of the Lord. When enemies rise up, we commit vast resources to the fabrication of gods of stone and steel—ships, planes, missiles, fortifications—and depend on them for protection and deliverance. When threatened, we become anti-enemy instead of pro-kingdom of God; we train a man in the art of war and call him a patriot, thus, in the manner of Satan’s counterfeit of true patriotism, perverting the Savior’s teaching: ‘Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; ‘That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven.’ (Matt. 5:44-45.)”

In the current Iraq war, the Republican administration has deceived America into following a course that is entirely contrary to teachings of the Book of Mormon relating to entering wars and to the conduct of those wars. We have chosen, as Jimmy Carter observed, to follow the Prince of Pre-emptive War (George W. Bush) rather than the Prince of Peace. As a result, the United States has reaped—and spread—much grief.

Pride vs. humility

In 1989, LDS Church President Ezra Taft Benson warned church members to beware of pride. In his address, considered by Mormons to be the major message of his presidency, Benson called pride “the great stumbling block” of the church. “The proud are not easily taught. They won’t change their minds to accept truths, because to do so implies they have been wrong. . . . the proud do not receive counsel or correction easily.”

As mentioned above, early in the Vietnam War, Republicans and Democrats both were wrong. When their mistake became apparent, most Democrats admitted it and began to oppose the war. Most Republicans, conservatives in particular, stuck to their guns. Many insist to this day that the war went bad only because the politicians refused to let the generals run the show. During the 1960s and early 1970s, they appeared to be saying “I’m more patriotic than you” by attacking the patriotism of those who called for a pullout. America’s hawks didn’t want any long-haired hippies with flowers in their hair telling them they were wrong about the war. Could it be that nationalistic pride prevented them from changing their minds?

Similarly, on issues such as abortion, prayer in schools and liquor laws, Republican Christians who trumpet “moral values” seem to imply that they are closer to God than those who disagree with them. Could it be that pride makes it hard for them to change their mind even when their positions lead to higher rates of abortion, less prayer and more DUIs?

Conclusion

Mormons have allowed Republicans to lead them astray. They have been led to believe that restricting freedom promotes God’s plan. They have been told that economic inequality is acceptable because the Lord blesses the righteous. They have been told that patriotism requires them to support the amassing of weapons of war and to back the president’s policies in times of war, even when those policies result in needless deaths. The Scriptures warn us that distorters of the truth would arise in the latter days: “Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil.” (Isaiah 5:30)

While it is true that many Mormons have been deceived into thinking that the Republican Party is more in harmony with God’s will than the Democratic Party, it is equally true that God is merciful and allows people to repent. A Book of Mormon prophet observed that many of the humble followers of Christ “do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.” To Utah’s right-wingers, Democrats say, “Break free. Shake off those chains. Cease to serve the devil.” We recognize, however, that the chains of precept and tradition are strong. Many otherwise good people who may sense the error of their ways will find that they are unable to shuck such shackles. They are addicts, hooked on meaningless prattle called “moral values.”

We Mormon Democrats will pray for them.

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SwissMrs&Pitchfire
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Post by SwissMrs&Pitchfire »

It is very sad for me to see someone so willing to parrot satan's agenda like this. Obviously he does not know it for what it is, but then that doesn't change the harmful effects that these arguments have had on our society.

I wont bother with rebuttal except to say that we are for agency exercised aright. This country was founded as one nation under God from whom our rights come, with certain blessings which this nation has enjoyed which are conditional on obedience to those laws. We have freedom OF religeon, not FROM religeon! You can never have freedom FROM religeon, it is impossible. An ostrich can make himself not see the world, he cannot make it go away!

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ChelC
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Post by ChelC »

Well, he has a couple points I agree with actually toward the beginning, and then it all goes to crap! The author has taken some things out of context to say the least.

I personally have always thought Utah's liquor laws are ridiculous, and that one I have to agree with him on! I know that when the church has hosted conventions (non church related) which include drinkers, they have accomodated them, and provided drinks. We allow people to decide that for themselves. This private club thing is dumb. I especially hate that we then try to say that they can't smoke in a private club - how hypocritical is that? You have to call it a private club for members only to allow drinks, but we'll say what you can and cannot do in that PRIVATE club.

Why do so many members of the church treat smokers and drinkers as if they have the plague? Most members of the church have some commandments that they have not really accepted yet. That is a pet peeve of mine, because I've met many inactive members who are afraid to come because they smoke, or drink coffee, and other members have made them feel unworthy to be there. Some of these inactive members had so much to offer, really good people. Church is made for imperfect people, DUHHHHHHH, that's the point of it all, if we were all perfect we wouldn't be here.

Okay, rant over - as you can see that's a sore spot for me. :x

Back to the point - this article sounds like an anti-mormon ranting and raving to me by someone who doesn't understand the church's strong anti-socialist stance.

lundbaek
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Good grief!

Post by lundbaek »

Warren really believes that "Utah Republicanism, on the other hand, has long been hijacked by right-wingers."? Lundbæk really believes Utah Republicanism has been hijacked by left-wingers. Just look at the socialist voting records of Utah's congressmen in both houses.

lundbaek
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The Church's strong anti-socialist stance.

Post by lundbaek »

Most of us here will likely agree that the church for many years took a strong anti-socialist stance. It no longer does so publicly, for reasons most of us probably understand and hopefully accept. But we as private individuals can still promote constitutional principles and disuade other LDSs at least from espousing socialist principles, legislation and programs. I finds it very difficult to do that. I've many times failed to impress other LDSs with what I consider the importance of supporting only principles, legislation, and programs that conform to the Constitution, and supporting only candidates for office that will do the same. On the rare occasions when an opportunity to make that impression presents itself, I usually blow it.

Can any of you give short, one line answers to the question "Why should I demand and support strict adherence to the Constitution?" I need ideas.

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prew
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answer

Post by prew »

What would the Savior do?

ShawnC
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Re: The Church's strong anti-socialist stance.

Post by ShawnC »

lundbaek wrote:Most of us here will likely agree that the church for many years took a strong anti-socialist stance. It no longer does so publicly, for reasons most of us probably understand and hopefully accept. But we as private individuals can still promote constitutional principles and dissuade other LDSs at least from espousing socialist principles, legislation and programs. I finds it very difficult to do that. I've many times failed to impress other LDSs with what I consider the importance of supporting only principles, legislation, and programs that conform to the Constitution, and supporting only candidates for office that will do the same. On the rare occasions when an opportunity to make that impression presents itself, I usually blow it.

Can any of you give short, one line answers to the question "Why should I demand and support strict adherence to the Constitution?" I need ideas.

I am often in the same boat Lund. The general response that I have found that works some of the time is something along the lines of the we will be held accountable individually for upholding secret combination and for not supporting and sustaining our freedoms that god gave us to allow us to live the gospel. We are held accountable for every idle word and deed and certainly for upholding secret combinations, even if ignorantly. As Ether 8 says, those nations that do will be destroyed. Reminding people of destruction often helps get their attention.

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SwissMrs&Pitchfire
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Post by SwissMrs&Pitchfire »

We believe in free agency as the cornerstone of GOD's plan. The Constitution was established by righteous men to guarentee that free agency and to oppose or not support it is to oppose or not support the plan which our Savior presented in the pre-existance.

lundbaek
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Location: Mesa, Arizona

Post by lundbaek »

What would the Savior do?

I think the Savior is disappointed that LDSs have mostly ignored the admonitions He gave in years and decades past us to "befriend" the Constitution and to "suffer not that these murderous combinations get above you which are built up to get power and gain".

I think He is pleased that a few people, LDSs and others, do "befriend" the Constitution and try to combat the efforts of the secret combinations that are succeding in gaining power and control over our nation and others, as we are commanded in certain scriptures, even though His Prophet is relatively silent on these issues.

My best guess is that under the present circumsatnces the Saviour would encourage a relatively few people to study the Constitution and permit a few to become aware of our "awful situation", while constraining many others so as to avoid antagonizing the LDGs and creating a situation in which they would attack the Church and perhaps force the Lord to "bare his arm" in a way we are not ready for yet.

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prew
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sorry for confusion

Post by prew »

I guess a person can think that way. I was thinking along different lines. Whenever, I come upon difficult ethical questions, I ask myself, what would the Savior do?

The question:
"Why should I demand and support strict adherence to the Constitution?"
brings to mind some choices. One choice is adherence to the Constitution and the other choice(s) is(are) unspoken.

Lets use the example of a widly used misinterpertation of the Pre-amble in the Constitution- the welfare clause. Communist, Socialist and neo-Cons love to miss interprete it.

These groups advocate welfare and demand the state these days to take $1 from you and borrow $1 from a foreign nation to pay about $1 for interest payments, $.35 for military, $.20 for Social Security and Medicare, $.20 for administration, $.10 for Transportation and the rest for various welfare projects. This is an (one of the) unspoken choice(s).

Which choice would the Savior choose?

lundbaek
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Post by lundbaek »

I believe Christ would not condone taking wealth in any form from one person "at the point of a gun" and giving it as "welfare" or "foreign aid" to another. Ref. Ezra Taft Benson's "The Proper role of Government" and H. Verlan Andersen's "Many Are Called But Few Are Chosen"

The following was written to me about a year ago by Christopher S. Bentley, LDS author of "The Hidded Things of Darkness".

"I find no authority given the FedGov to do anything it may think is for the welfare of any person, group, part of the country, or foreign nation, as it is not included in the enumerted powers.

"It is my understanding that the term "general welfare" in the early years of the United States referred only to the protection of fundamental rights for all--not welfare as the term is used today. It appears that wasn't even a relevant or disputed concept at the time the Constitution was written. However, there appears to have been some concern over the danger of a “welfare state” in which the government compensates people for their failures and losses other than legitimate government debts. And some of America’s founders did express such concerns. Note what some of them wrote on the subject.

"In “Federalist Papers #40, James Madison stated: We have seen that in the new government as in the old, the general powers are limited and that the States in all unenumerated cases, are left in the enjoyment of their sovereign and independent jurisdiction.

"In “Federalist Papers #45 , Madison wrote: The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the Federal Government, are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State Governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will for the most part be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects, which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties and properties of the people; and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State.

"In “Writings of Thomas Jefferson” edited by Albert Ellery Bergh, 10:342, one reads that Jefferson wrote: “If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people, under the pretense of taking care of them, they might become happy.” And in 13:358 one can read: “...we shall all consider ourselves unauthorized to saddle posterity with our debts, and morally bound to pay them ourselves, and consequently within what may be deemed the period of a generation, or the life of the majority.”

"In “The Life and Public Service of Samuel Adams” by William V. Wells, 1:154 we read that Adams said: “The utopian schemes of leveling (redistribution of wealth) and a community of goods(central ownership of means of production and distribution of goods) are as visionary and impractical as those which vest all property in the Crown. (These ideas) are arbitrary, despotic, and in our government, unconstitutional.”

"There were, however, those who interpreted the "welfare clause" in the Preamble as a general authority to the Congress to do whatever it felt was for the welfare of any person(s), groups, regions, or foreign nation(s). Probably most prominent among these was Alexander Hamilton. Initially, Hamilton’s views seemed to square with those of Madison, Adams, and Jefferson. In the Federalist Papers #83, Hamilton wrote, The plan of the convention declares that the power of Congress or in other words of the national legislature, shall extend to certain enumerated cases. This specification of particulars evidently excludes all pretension to a general legislative authority; because an affirmative grant of special powers would be absurd as well as useless, if a general authority was intended.”. He also wrote in #83: "The United States, in their united or collective capacity, are the object to which all general provisions in the constitution must necessarily be
construed to refer.

"However, after Hamilton became Secretary of Treasury of the United States, he changed his opinion and maintained that the welfare clause in the Preamble allows the FedGov to do anything it thinks is for the welfare of anyone or any part of the country, even if it is not included in the enumerted powers, and even if it is for local or special welfare instead of for the general welfare, and is used to justify the kind of welfare we have in America today. In 1936, Supreme Court Associate Justice Owen J. Roberts (whom the Pearl Harbor Roberts Commission showed to be a lackey of FDR) , in the Butler Case, wrote the opinion that apparently settled the issue in favour of Hamilton's later, “revised” concept of welfare, which is what we have today."

Around the same time and as part of the same discussion, Joel Skousen wrote: "It can be argued that the “general welfare” never should have been considered part of the legal language of the Constitution, and not legally binding. The Supreme Court decided to bend tradition and use it to justify our modern day welfare, especially beginning with those programs initiated in FDR’s “New Deal”. We are doing our children a disservice by allowing them to be misinformed on such an important constitutional issue, and we would do well to insist that they be taught the truth about how our present welfare system came into being."

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prew
captain of 100
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yep

Post by prew »

"Why should I demand and support strict adherence to the Constitution?"

My answer, "What would the Savior do?"
I gave an example and you basically answered that the Savior would adhere to the Constitution.

My answer to your question requires thinking. It also requires an understanding of the Constitution that you and I share but others may not share. I will think more about your request to submit a one liner response to your above question.

lundbaek
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Post by lundbaek »

My original question is meant for LDSs, who have certain obligation towaard the Constitution. I'm hoping others on this forum will respond as well. I need ideas, and I think many of you might have some good ideas.

I think it is clear enough in the D&C that the Lord inspired the writing of the Constitution. But it is also pretty clear that different LDSs have different interpretations of it, including of the welfare issue and probably of the president's war powers as well.

Somehow I need to be able to respond to the question "But isn't the President (and/or Congress) doing what he thinks is best for America?" I hope I'm not creating more confusion.

Shoemaker
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Post by Shoemaker »

lundbaek wrote:Somehow I need to be able to respond to the question "But isn't the President (and/or Congress) doing what he thinks is best for America?" I hope I'm not creating more confusion.
How about the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Maybe your giving them the meat before the milk. I think you’re talking to people who have other priorities such as sporting events, family reunions, “bread and circuses”? All is well in Zion with them! Besides you’re asking a person to think and thinking and researching is work and requires time. People will easily give up money over their time. You’re butting in on their time. They don't respect you well enough to check out if what you say is true. If you're not written up in the news papers or on T.V. or well known enough in the community but just Joe Blow my neighbor then you get blown off. They also trust the so-called news sources of major media to tell them what to believe and lull them to sleep. We’re witnessing the gradual boiling the frog axiom. “Don’t worry, be happy!” :D

Actually your interpretations are right on the mark. Bro. Skousen always referred to interpreting the Constitution in the “tradition of the founding fathers” and you’re right to find that tradition in the Federalist Papers and the founders other writings.

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ChelC
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Post by ChelC »

You know, I've met people who see the signs of decline. they know where we are headed, maybe not entirely but they get it to a degree. I seem to always be met with "It's too depressing to think about" "I don't feel comfortable talking politics" "It's just going to decline until the Savior comes" and "The Lord will protect us"

It's touchy trying to give a rebuttal because many people become easily turned off or offended. I guess all you can do is try, if they are not open to hearing anything, and they choose to live in a bubble, you have to let them do it. I have tried to squeeze in the quote from Pres. McKay about being one in studying the constitution, and then just suggest some personal study, and contact with local reps. I've met resistance everywhere though. I tried this when the subject of the constitution came up while visiting teaching, and I really kept it on a low level, just giving a few facts about where we stand as a nation, but I could tell while the lady I teach seemed at least interested, my partner thought I was a lunatic. Anyway, I'll leave it alone unless they bring it back up.

People don't realize that while we know things are going to fall apart before the second coming, we still have a responsibility to do our part, so we'll have enough understanding to rebuild it, and so that we can possibly shorten the time of our suffering. We can't sit on the rail road track and read scriptures and pray, thinking that because we are living how we should Heavenly Father will protect us from the train barreling down the track. We have to do our part.

I think we have a responsibility to share the message, and to do it tactfully, but we will not win everyone over. Maybe though we are planting some seeds and they will start to recognize it themselves in time. We can also continue to stress the things they can't argue with which will have them prepared, food storage and staying out of debt.

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SwissMrs&Pitchfire
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Post by SwissMrs&Pitchfire »

The more and more I think about it, the more firmly I believe that those who will get it are awakened and the rest just are not going to get on board until it's popular. I had it all poured on top of me and I was "least likely to."

My point is that I think we spend too much time trying to be perfectly sensitive to those who may not recieve these things. I wonder if we don't sometimes miss other opportunities to share this with those that we don't think will accept it because we fixate on the hard sell?

Let's get the message out there and let the spirit do the converting.

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SwissMrs&Pitchfire
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Post by SwissMrs&Pitchfire »

To answer the original question:

"Why it is difficult for a good Mormon to be Republican?"

Because nowadays it requires absolute hypocrisy. If you supported President George Bush when he was running for office based upon his platform and still support him you are either a hypocrite or really believe that 9/11 changed everything.

So which is it?

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jbalm
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Post by jbalm »

"Why it is difficult for a good Mormon to be Republican?"
Perhaps because the Republican party seems to have become a religion unto itself.

How often have we seen chuch members distort doctrine to fit their political views, rather that the other way around?

lundbaek
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Post by lundbaek »

It seems to be quite easy for otherwise good Mormons to be Republicans. I find myself asking why. I'm surrounded at this time with people I consider to be really good LDSs who are engaged in good causes. Yet they seem totally oblivious to the issues that we here are concerning ourselves with. For example, if they think of it or remember it at all, they think the secret combination that seeks to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries and which is increasing its evil influence and control over America and the entire world is the Mafia, the Krips type gangs, and/or the Kremlin. They don't see the real Latter Day Gadiantons who have control of our government and others. Most of them don't see that the LDGs have considerable control over the Republican Party as well as the Democrat Party.

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