Coffee Is Condemned By "The Committee of the whole Church in Zion In General Assembly"

For discussion of liberty, freedom, government and politics.
Post Reply
User avatar
Tony
captain of 100
Posts: 850
Location: I'm on earth living out my probationary period.

Coffee Is Condemned By "The Committee of the whole Church in Zion In General Assembly"

Post by Tony »

The entire Church held that “the use of tea, coffee, and tobacco” is wrong.

A Trial of the Far West Presidency of the Church was held in February 1838. The Far West Presidency consisted of David Whitmer, John Whitmer, and William W. Phelps, and "the Committee of the whole Church in Zion in General Assembly" was present. Among the charges was “David Whitmer's wrong-doing in persisting in the use of tea, coffee, and tobacco.” (History of the Church, Volume Three, page 4)

Page 5 states, “The vote against David Whitmer, John Whitmer, and William W. Phelps was unanimous.”

Everyone obviously recognized that “the use of tea, coffee, and tobacco” makes one guilty of “wrong-doing.”

Even David Whitmer did not complain that the Word of Wisdom does not mention coffee and tea.
Attachments
Coffee Condemned by Committee of the Whole Church.jpg
Coffee Condemned by Committee of the Whole Church.jpg (450.84 KiB) Viewed 2671 times

User avatar
iWriteStuff
blithering blabbermouth
Posts: 5523
Location: Sinope
Contact:

Re: Coffee Is Condemned By "The Committee of the whole Church in Zion In General Assembly"

Post by iWriteStuff »

Whew! They didn't condemn energy drinks. I guess that means I'm ok! #:-s

Jk of course nice find! :ymapplause:


Ezra
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4351
Location: Not telling

Re: Coffee Is Condemned By "The Committee of the whole Church in Zion In General Assembly"

Post by Ezra »

Just because the body votes on something does not make it wrong. Even if they lable it so. God did not specify it only hot drinks. Does man know more then God? Coffee is a herb and if used correctly is good. The dogma that coffee is some how bad and wrong is laughable . All of gods creations have a use and purpose for us

User avatar
Tony
captain of 100
Posts: 850
Location: I'm on earth living out my probationary period.

Re: Coffee Is Condemned By "The Committee of the whole Church in Zion In General Assembly"

Post by Tony »

Obrien wrote: (-|
You are "bored" by news that the entire Church sustained the revelation that the "hot drinks" in the Word of Wisdom are coffee and tea?

Why not just admit that you do not keep the Word of Wisdom?

onandagus
captain of 50
Posts: 91
Location: Sodom & Egypt

Re: Coffee Is Condemned By "The Committee of the whole Church in Zion In General Assembly"

Post by onandagus »

Christ was condemned by Israel and its leaders. Maybe not unanimous but Christs supporters all seemed to be absent.

One wonders if the vote was more in condemnation of the misuse of church funds.

onandagus
captain of 50
Posts: 91
Location: Sodom & Egypt

Re: Coffee Is Condemned By "The Committee of the whole Church in Zion In General Assembly"

Post by onandagus »

I suppose even early saints were not immune from creating hedges and substituting the commandments of men for the commandments of God.

User avatar
Separatist
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1151

Re: Coffee Is Condemned By "The Committee of the whole Church in Zion In General Assembly"

Post by Separatist »

Um, you do realize that many saints continued to drink coffee after this, that it was a regular supply for most saints going west, that RS president Emmeline B Wells was known to enjoy a cup of joe from time to time. Here is what some leaders said post 1851:
"The observance of the Word of Wisdom, or interpretation of God's requirements on this subject, must be left, partially, with the people. We cannot make laws like the Medes and Persians. We cannot say you shall never drink a cup of tea, or you shall never taste of this, or you shall never taste of that..." -Brigham Young

"I am aware that it is not by constraint, and a man should not constrain his family to obey it." -Orson Pratt

"If you must use tobacco, put a small portion in your mouth when no person sees you, and be careful that no one sees you chew it. I do not charge you with sin." -Brigham Young

"Some of the brethren are very strenuous upon the 'Word of Wisdom', and would like to have me preach upon it, and urge it upon the brethren, and make it a test of fellowship. I do not think I shall do so. I have never done so." -Brigham Young

"Supposing he had given the Word of Wisdom as a command, how many of us would have been here? I do not know; but he gave this without commandment or constraint, observing that it would be pleasing in His sight for His people to obey its precepts. Ought we not try to please our Heavenly Father?" -Brigham Young

User avatar
marc
Disciple of Jesus Christ
Posts: 10553
Contact:

Re: Coffee Is Condemned By "The Committee of the whole Church in Zion In General Assembly"

Post by marc »

Well, Joseph Smith drank alcohol. Drank it in Carthage Jail before he was killed. Do I approve? Why would he need my approval? Personally speaking, I don't drink beer. I don't drink coffee, tea or any alcohol. I've never lit a cigarette or smoked any drug. I've never so much as taken a sip of any harmful substance. I do on occasion drink a Fresca or some other soda pop, though. I eat meat sparingly, lots of veggies and I am fit for an old man. I am not overweight or obese. I can run and not faint. I can run like the wind blows, thank you very much.

On another occasion:
The company moved on to Andover, where the Sheriff of Lee County requested lodgings for the night for all the company. I was put up into a room and locked up with Captain Grover. It was reported to me that some of the brethren had been drinking whiskey that day in violation of the Word of Wisdom.

I called the brethren in and investigated the case, and was satisfied that no evil had been done, and gave them a couple of dollars, with directions to replenish the bottle to stimulate them in the fatigues of their sleepless journey. Joseph Smith, Millennial Star 21:283
Looks like Joseph let his men drink whiskey to "stimulate them." I'm not writing this to condemn anyone. Just sharing history.

The ward heretic
captain of 100
Posts: 289

Re: Coffee Is Condemned By "The Committee of the whole Church in Zion In General Assembly"

Post by The ward heretic »

Like brother Joseph, I like wine, occasional shot of whisky, beer, tea, and coffee. Hell......like BroJoe I'd even smoke a cigar in the right circumstances, like on a tall horse down the high street in Nauvoo right after preaching about the importance of the WoW.

User avatar
Obrien
Up, up and away.
Posts: 4951

Re: Coffee Is Condemned By "The Committee of the whole Church in Zion In General Assembly"

Post by Obrien »

Tony wrote:
Obrien wrote: (-|
You are "bored" by news that the entire Church sustained the revelation that the "hot drinks" in the Word of Wisdom are coffee and tea?

Why not just admit that you do not keep the Word of Wisdom?
I'm a cash guy...hell, I don't even have a debit card.
I have a fairly considerable roll on me right now.
I'd bet it all, against whatever you have in your pocket, that you don't keep the WoW, either. Care to wager? Why be a hypocrite?
(Ps -I already admitted I don't live the WoW. I have never washed my body with strong drink, and I had a chicken cob salad yesterday - the croutons were out of season).
Last edited by Obrien on August 12th, 2015, 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
rewcox
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5873

Re: Coffee Is Condemned By "The Committee of the whole Church in Zion In General Assembly"

Post by rewcox »

Faith without works is dead.

In Houston, I'm working with non members all day. Most know I'm Mormon. They don't offer me coffee or beer. They respect that. And I don't have a problem with them drinking coffee or beer. I do say something when some smoke. They know it is not healthy, but it is a tough addiction to break.

If you are a Mormon, and you drink coffee, tea, beer, wine, alcohol, or smoke, or take illegal drugs or abuse prescription drugs, you've lost your power.

Your power of example. Your family, children, or friends know you are not keeping the WOW. And when your children come to an important place in life, don't be surprised if they choose a different path.

Faith without works is dead.

User avatar
marc
Disciple of Jesus Christ
Posts: 10553
Contact:

Re: Coffee Is Condemned By "The Committee of the whole Church in Zion In General Assembly"

Post by marc »

Let's not forget about the proper use of grains and eating meat sparingly in times of winter, cold or famine, walking in obedience to the commandments. We have too many overweight gluttons in the church, too.

User avatar
rewcox
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5873

Re: Coffee Is Condemned By "The Committee of the whole Church in Zion In General Assembly"

Post by rewcox »

marc wrote:Let's not forget about the proper use of grains and eating meat sparingly in times of winter, cold or famine, walking in obedience to the commandments. We have too many overweight gluttons in the church, too.
You're getting feisty marc. You know this isn't about the WOW. It's about people veering off and trying to justify.

Tim Malone, Denver Snuffer, Rock Waterman, Kate Kelly, John Dehlin, and others on LDSFF.

Do you believe the church leaders are in apostasy?

User avatar
Sandinista
captain of 100
Posts: 518
Location: Ohio

Re: Coffee Is Condemned By "The Committee of the whole Church in Zion In General Assembly"

Post by Sandinista »

I'm just glad that no where are the words "Dr. Pepper" used in conjunction with the WoW! :)

Just sticking to the "letter of the law! :)

User avatar
Separatist
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1151

Re: Coffee Is Condemned By "The Committee of the whole Church in Zion In General Assembly"

Post by Separatist »

rewcox wrote: It's about people veering off and trying to justify.
This is actually "zero percent" not the case for many (I can't speak for all), and you're being intellectually dishonest for putting it forth as the reason. It has nothing to do with justification, but more to do with discovery to get to the heart of the true teachings of the gospel vs man made distractions.
Last edited by Separatist on August 12th, 2015, 9:44 am, edited 2 times in total.

jwharton
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3067
Location: USA

Re: Coffee Is Condemned By "The Committee of the whole Church in Zion In General Assembly"

Post by jwharton »

rewcox wrote:
marc wrote:Let's not forget about the proper use of grains and eating meat sparingly in times of winter, cold or famine, walking in obedience to the commandments. We have too many overweight gluttons in the church, too.
You're getting feisty marc. You know this isn't about the WOW. It's about people veering off and trying to justify.

Tim Malone, Denver Snuffer, Rock Waterman, Kate Kelly, John Dehlin, and others on LDSFF.

Do you believe the church leaders are in apostasy?
As I read through this I see the elephant in the room here is that the presidency of the church in that region were being called to the carpet for something relatively minor by today's standards. And, this is even in a matter that isn't entirely clear. The people took it seriously that no such intoxicating substances should be employed by those with the duty to administer in the spiritual governance of the church.

Let's fast forward to today, a day when our leaders are being inundated with the offerings of a far more intoxicating elixir. They are being given the fumes of the saints that President Faust warned Elder Uchtdorf about that he should not inhale of. I'm talking about all of the expectation and adulation that our leaders can and will do no wrong and that we needn't raise up any controversies against them to question their worthiness to stand.

If the early saints wouldn't tolerate their leaders doing things that weren't given by commandment or restraint but simply on the basis of it being a wise principle and there was time and attention given to their controversy against their leaders, why couldn't such a process be carried out today?

For example, why are people who question the manner in which all of the financial records of the church are not fully exposed treated as apostates?
Isn't it a wise principle that the church have full accountability and transparency to all of the members making the donations?
Don't those who are bothered by this, genuinely in their conscience, deserve the respect to have their controversy heard out and acted upon?

People have got to wake up and see that raising up a controversy against the leaders is indeed something that should be respected, not shunned.

User avatar
rewcox
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5873

Re: Coffee Is Condemned By "The Committee of the whole Church in Zion In General Assembly"

Post by rewcox »

Separatist wrote:
rewcox wrote: It's about people veering off and trying to justify.
This is actually zero percent wrong for many (I can't speak for all), and you're being intellectually dishonest for putting it forth as the reason. It has nothing to do with justification, but more to do with discovery to get to the heart of the true teachings of the gospel vs man made distractions.
Veering, veering...

User avatar
rewcox
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5873

Re: Coffee Is Condemned By "The Committee of the whole Church in Zion In General Assembly"

Post by rewcox »

jwharton wrote:
rewcox wrote:
marc wrote:Let's not forget about the proper use of grains and eating meat sparingly in times of winter, cold or famine, walking in obedience to the commandments. We have too many overweight gluttons in the church, too.
You're getting feisty marc. You know this isn't about the WOW. It's about people veering off and trying to justify.

Tim Malone, Denver Snuffer, Rock Waterman, Kate Kelly, John Dehlin, and others on LDSFF.

Do you believe the church leaders are in apostasy?
As I read through this I see the elephant in the room here is that the presidency of the church in that region were being called to the carpet for something relatively minor by today's standards. And, this is even in a matter that isn't entirely clear. The people took it seriously that no such intoxicating substances should be employed by those with the duty to administer in the spiritual governance of the church.

Let's fast forward to today, a day when our leaders are being inundated with the offerings of a far more intoxicating elixir. They are being given the fumes of the saints that President Faust warned Elder Uchtdorf about that he should not inhale of. I'm talking about all of the expectation and adulation that our leaders can and will do no wrong and that we needn't raise up any controversies against them to question their worthiness to stand.

If the early saints wouldn't tolerate their leaders doing things that weren't given by commandment or restraint but simply on the basis of it being a wise principle and there was time and attention given to their controversy against their leaders, why couldn't such a process be carried out today?

For example, why are people who question the manner in which all of the financial records of the church are not fully exposed treated as apostates?
Isn't it a wise principle that the church have full accountability and transparency to all of the members making the donations?
Don't those who are bothered by this, genuinely in their conscience, deserve the respect to have their controversy heard out and acted upon?

People have got to wake up and see that raising up a controversy against the leaders is indeed something that should be respected, not shunned.
Veering, veering.

User avatar
jbalm
The Third Comforter
Posts: 5348

Re: Coffee Is Condemned By "The Committee of the whole Church in Zion In General Assembly"

Post by jbalm »

Sandinista wrote:I'm just glad that no where are the words "Dr. Pepper" used in conjunction with the WoW! :)

Just sticking to the "letter of the law! :)
Dr. Pepper is straight from heaven. It's the only thing I really miss since I've started trying to reduce my sugar consumption.

jwharton
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3067
Location: USA

Re: Coffee Is Condemned By "The Committee of the whole Church in Zion In General Assembly"

Post by jwharton »

rewcox wrote:
jwharton wrote:
rewcox wrote:
marc wrote:Let's not forget about the proper use of grains and eating meat sparingly in times of winter, cold or famine, walking in obedience to the commandments. We have too many overweight gluttons in the church, too.
You're getting feisty marc. You know this isn't about the WOW. It's about people veering off and trying to justify.

Tim Malone, Denver Snuffer, Rock Waterman, Kate Kelly, John Dehlin, and others on LDSFF.

Do you believe the church leaders are in apostasy?
As I read through this I see the elephant in the room here is that the presidency of the church in that region were being called to the carpet for something relatively minor by today's standards. And, this is even in a matter that isn't entirely clear. The people took it seriously that no such intoxicating substances should be employed by those with the duty to administer in the spiritual governance of the church.

Let's fast forward to today, a day when our leaders are being inundated with the offerings of a far more intoxicating elixir. They are being given the fumes of the saints that President Faust warned Elder Uchtdorf about that he should not inhale of. I'm talking about all of the expectation and adulation that our leaders can and will do no wrong and that we needn't raise up any controversies against them to question their worthiness to stand.

If the early saints wouldn't tolerate their leaders doing things that weren't given by commandment or restraint but simply on the basis of it being a wise principle and there was time and attention given to their controversy against their leaders, why couldn't such a process be carried out today?

For example, why are people who question the manner in which all of the financial records of the church are not fully exposed treated as apostates?
Isn't it a wise principle that the church have full accountability and transparency to all of the members making the donations?
Don't those who are bothered by this, genuinely in their conscience, deserve the respect to have their controversy heard out and acted upon?

People have got to wake up and see that raising up a controversy against the leaders is indeed something that should be respected, not shunned.
Veering, veering.
Yes, those who shun the respectful process of raising up a controversy against the church leaders are indeed veering.
This trial proves that such a process has a respectful place in the functions of church governance.

User avatar
rewcox
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5873

Re: Coffee Is Condemned By "The Committee of the whole Church in Zion In General Assembly"

Post by rewcox »

jwharton wrote:Yes, those who shun the respectful process of raising up a controversy against the church leaders are indeed veering.
This trial proves that such a process has a respectful place in the functions of church governance.
JW, this isn't the place to complain about church leaders. Take it up with your bishop or stake president.

The people I listed keep complaining until they ended up out of the church. Just like Laman and Lemuel.

jwharton
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3067
Location: USA

Re: Coffee Is Condemned By "The Committee of the whole Church in Zion In General Assembly"

Post by jwharton »

rewcox wrote:
jwharton wrote:Yes, those who shun the respectful process of raising up a controversy against the church leaders are indeed veering.
This trial proves that such a process has a respectful place in the functions of church governance.
JW, this isn't the place to complain about church leaders. Take it up with your bishop or stake president.

The people I listed keep complaining until they ended up out of the church. Just like Laman and Lemuel.
In case you haven't noticed, what I'm complaining about is the mindset that our leaders are infallible.
I'm complaining about members, such as yourself, who perpetuate this false and dangerous attitude.
I am talking to and with the very people who I have a grievance with so please start listening up.

buffalo_girl
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 7175

Re: Coffee Is Condemned By "The Committee of the whole Church in Zion In General Assembly"

Post by buffalo_girl »

Apparently, coffee has a very close chemical structure to that of sugar - as does Ritalin prescribed for children and adults who struggle with ADD and ADHD.

We all must acknowledge the harm done by overindulgence in refined sugar. It IS addictive and it DOES cause metabolic harm.

It's pretty silly for us to justify the use of certain substances because they aren't listed in Section 89. I knew a couple of young Priests in the 1960's who justified the use of LSD - even when blessing the Sacrament - because it wasn't itemized as harmful in the Word of Wisdom!!!

Do your own research in order to discover the harmful outcomes of many foods we 'trust' industry to provide for us.

As far as I'm concerned, the following 2 verses from Section 89 are the most important to comprehend...

4 Behold, verily, thus saith the Lord unto you: In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days, I have warned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation—

21 And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the destroying angel shall pass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them.

User avatar
rewcox
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5873

Re: Coffee Is Condemned By "The Committee of the whole Church in Zion In General Assembly"

Post by rewcox »

jwharton wrote:
rewcox wrote:
jwharton wrote:Yes, those who shun the respectful process of raising up a controversy against the church leaders are indeed veering.
This trial proves that such a process has a respectful place in the functions of church governance.
JW, this isn't the place to complain about church leaders. Take it up with your bishop or stake president.

The people I listed keep complaining until they ended up out of the church. Just like Laman and Lemuel.
In case you haven't noticed, what I'm complaining about is the mindset that our leaders are infallible.
I'm complaining about members, such as yourself, who perpetuate this false and dangerous attitude.
I am talking to and with the very people who I have a grievance with so please start listening up.
Why would I want to listen to complainers, many outside the church?

No one is infallible. But I listen to them every 6 months, I feel the spirit, so I can determine for myself.

Get over your grievance and be the best member you can Bee. Stop complaining.

Post Reply