How Cults Work

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butterfly
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Re: How Cults Work

Postby butterfly » Tue Sep 08, 2015 6:50 pm

Thank you, Stourme. Maybe I'm not being very clear in what I mean. It seems that you give up your will either way - whether to God or to satan is your decision, but the end result is that you must always have a master. Is our will never our own? Must we always be possessed by one side or the other?

Even the Savior, with all His knowledge of right and wrong, gave His will to the Father. Will we ever be able to keep our will and continue progressing or will we always be subject to someone over us and what they direct us to do?

If we are always subject to someone over us, how is this different from mind control?

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Re: How Cults Work

Postby jwharton » Tue Sep 08, 2015 7:03 pm

butterfly wrote:Thank you, Stourme. Maybe I'm not being very clear in what I mean. It seems that you give up your will either way - whether to God or to satan is your decision, but the end result is that you must always have a master. Is our will never our own? Must we always be possessed by one side or the other?

Even the Savior, with all His knowledge of right and wrong, gave His will to the Father. Will we ever be able to keep our will and continue progressing or will we always be subject to someone over us and what they direct us to do?

If we are always subject to someone over us, how is this different from mind control?
This is a very excellent question that deserves more attention.
I'd like to address this but I am short on time at the moment.
Hopefully I'll get to this later this evening.
Reality influences perception.
Perception creates reality.

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Re: How Cults Work

Postby EmmaLee » Tue Sep 08, 2015 7:45 pm

butterfly wrote:Alma 34:34 "...for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world."
Are we supposed to be possessed? Is this saying that a spirit other than ourselves should constantly inhabit our bodies?
butterfly, the 'spirit' in this scripture is referring to your own spirit - the part of you that makes you, you - the part of you that animates your physical body. What it's saying is that we will not magically change when our spirit's leave our bodies - we will still be the same person after death that we were before death. I know some people who think once they die they will automatically become more _____ (fill in the blank - more charitable, more loving, more holy, more whatever they feel they lack now in mortality) - but they won't - at least not right away - not without repentance and growth (which, by what I've learned, takes a lot longer, and is much harder, to achieve in the spirit world than here in mortality). So, in my opinion, this scripture in Alma is basically saying, "Make those changes NOW, because whatever your spirit is like when you die, that's how it will be for eternity."
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Re: How Cults Work

Postby butterfly » Tue Sep 08, 2015 8:04 pm

EmmaLee wrote: butterfly, the 'spirit' in this scripture is referring to your own spirit - the part of you that makes you, you - the part of you that animates your physical body. What it's saying is that we will not magically change when our spirit's leave our bodies - we will still be the same person after death that we were before death. I know some people who think once they die they will automatically become more _____ (fill in the blank - more charitable, more loving, more holy, more whatever they feel they lack now in mortality) - but they won't - at least not right away - not without repentance and growth (which, by what I've learned, takes a lot longer, and is much harder, to achieve in the spirit world than here in mortality). So, in my opinion, this scripture in Alma is basically saying, "Make those changes NOW, because whatever your spirit is like when you die, that's how it will be for eternity."
Thank you, I do agree with what you are describing. But the next 2 verses in Alma say:
35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.

36 And this I know, because the Lord hath said he dwelleth not in unholy temples, but in the hearts of the righteous doth he dwell; yea, and he has also said that the righteous shall sit down in his kingdom, to go no more out; but their garments should be made white through the blood of the Lamb.

It seems like these verses are talking about more than just our personal individual spirits. What do you think?

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Re: How Cults Work

Postby BrotherOfMahonri » Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:37 pm

...
Last edited by BrotherOfMahonri on Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"We ought to obey God rather than men." -the Apostle Peter, Acts 5:29

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Re: How Cults Work

Postby BrotherOfMahonri » Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:50 pm

Thinker wrote:Caddis,
You seem to be doing better too. That's good!
Still, I won't say it's easy or comfortable to break out of a life-encompassing cult, especially when all around you - even your spouse - are against you. And church leaders overstepping their authority, as if it's against the law in UT to question the dominating religious cult culture. I've looked for truth wherever I can find it and have realized repeatedly that there are no "gurus" or "prophets" out there. And often those professing to be such are among the most deluded.

I've often felt like God is urging me to look to God only, but I'm so used to looking to others.
God is love.
How many are "lookin' for love in all the wrong places"?
nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.
"We ought to obey God rather than men." -the Apostle Peter, Acts 5:29

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Re: How Cults Work

Postby BrotherOfMahonri » Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:12 pm

Jim Kelley wrote:
Satan isn’t doing anything on this earth that hasn’t already been done on other worlds before (Temple Endowment) so the corruptions of the word cult is only a part of Satan’s tried and proven plan to attack The True Church and should not be considered any more than that.

Bro. Jim
As an ordinance worker, I was taught by temple presidency that Satan is a liar, esp. and even in the temple endowment ... food for thought...
"We ought to obey God rather than men." -the Apostle Peter, Acts 5:29

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Re: How Cults Work

Postby jwharton » Wed Sep 09, 2015 12:10 pm

butterfly wrote:Thank you, Stourme. Maybe I'm not being very clear in what I mean. It seems that you give up your will either way - whether to God or to satan is your decision, but the end result is that you must always have a master. Is our will never our own? Must we always be possessed by one side or the other?

Even the Savior, with all His knowledge of right and wrong, gave His will to the Father. Will we ever be able to keep our will and continue progressing or will we always be subject to someone over us and what they direct us to do?

If we are always subject to someone over us, how is this different from mind control?
Sorry I didn't get to this last night. The family decided to do a double-feature for movie night.

I've thought about this quite a bit and I think it's best I don't delve too deeply right off.

I think the issue here is if you look at spiritual union with a good, noble and righteous spirit as a loss of your own vs. having your own endowed.

When we enter into covenants, we do so of our own free will and choice. And, in conjunction with doing so, we receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
What happens is we become a member of a greater spiritual body of flesh and bones. We covenant to serve this body and we receive promises from this body to be served in return. It is a mutually beneficial agreement based upon clearly defined laws, statutes and principles. I don't feel that I have sacrificed my individuality in anyway by joining in union with other brothers and sisters in the covenant. We are already experiencing these things and we also are looking to be even further endowed from on high. In short, we are yearning for the atonement (at-one-ment) with God. Not that it will cause us to lose our individual will, but because it is the Father's Plan to discipline us into having the intelligence to stand as a sovereign being who stands firmly in their individual rights while also knowing how to honor and respect others in their individual rights.
Reality influences perception.
Perception creates reality.

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Re: How Cults Work

Postby butterfly » Thu Sep 10, 2015 7:46 pm

jwharton wrote: I think the issue here is if you look at spiritual union with a good, noble and righteous spirit as a loss of your own vs. having your own endowed.

Not that it will cause us to lose our individual will, but because it is the Father's Plan to discipline us into having the intelligence to stand as a sovereign being who stands firmly in their individual rights while also knowing how to honor and respect others in their individual rights.
What you have referenced is what I am trying to figure out. I'm trying to understand if I can ever hope to attain individual sovereignty at some point of eternal progression, or if I will always be at the lower rung of the command chain. I feel like I'm constantly being told to follow someone: I'm supposed to follow my husband, to follow the Holy Ghost, the Savior, and Heavenly Father's commands, to follow the leadership of the church. Most Sundays I just want to hide because I feel like people are just looking to see what they can get me to do - callings, visiting teaching, subbing for a class, a meal to someone. I feel like I'm wrong if I try to muster the courage to say no.Then, at home, I'm constantly catering to the needs of my children. "Mom, I need this!" I feel like everyone tells me what to do. This thread has talked about mind control and I understand that an evil spirit can just take complete control if you let it, but sometimes I feel like I have to follow so many others and I just am not able to comply with so many demands. I choose to follow the Savior but I didn't realize I'd get so bossed around all the way there. I'm sorry, this sounds too negative.

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Re: How Cults Work

Postby jwharton » Thu Sep 10, 2015 8:06 pm

butterfly wrote:
jwharton wrote: I think the issue here is if you look at spiritual union with a good, noble and righteous spirit as a loss of your own vs. having your own endowed.

Not that it will cause us to lose our individual will, but because it is the Father's Plan to discipline us into having the intelligence to stand as a sovereign being who stands firmly in their individual rights while also knowing how to honor and respect others in their individual rights.
What you have referenced is what I am trying to figure out. I'm trying to understand if I can ever hope to attain individual sovereignty at some point of eternal progression, or if I will always be at the lower rung of the command chain. I feel like I'm constantly being told to follow someone: I'm supposed to follow my husband, to follow the Holy Ghost, the Savior, and Heavenly Father's commands, to follow the leadership of the church. Most Sundays I just want to hide because I feel like people are just looking to see what they can get me to do - callings, visiting teaching, subbing for a class, a meal to someone. I feel like I'm wrong if I try to muster the courage to say no.Then, at home, I'm constantly catering to the needs of my children. "Mom, I need this!" I feel like everyone tells me what to do. This thread has talked about mind control and I understand that an evil spirit can just take complete control if you let it, but sometimes I feel like I have to follow so many others and I just am not able to comply with so many demands. I choose to follow the Savior but I didn't realize I'd get so bossed around all the way there. I'm sorry, this sounds too negative.
I hear what you are saying.
This is how it was for my mom too.
I am sure my wife also feels similarly at times.

The key for you is to get personal inspiration from the Holy Ghost so that all you do, or that you decline to do, is confirmed.

We have never been asked to love others more than we love ourselves, but rather to love them as we love ourselves.

It is the adversary who will depress you by making you feel like you have to put others before your own well-being.
In short, this is the process of you having others begin to encroach upon your personal sovereignty.

Not sure what I say here will be helpful, but I hope you find that healthy balance and that those around you respect it.
Reality influences perception.
Perception creates reality.

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Re: How Cults Work

Postby Thinker » Fri Sep 11, 2015 8:44 am

butterfly wrote:
jwharton wrote: I think the issue here is if you look at spiritual union with a good, noble and righteous spirit as a loss of your own vs. having your own endowed.

Not that it will cause us to lose our individual will, but because it is the Father's Plan to discipline us into having the intelligence to stand as a sovereign being who stands firmly in their individual rights while also knowing how to honor and respect others in their individual rights.
What you have referenced is what I am trying to figure out. I'm trying to understand if I can ever hope to attain individual sovereignty at some point of eternal progression, or if I will always be at the lower rung of the command chain. I feel like I'm constantly being told to follow someone: I'm supposed to follow my husband, to follow the Holy Ghost, the Savior, and Heavenly Father's commands, to follow the leadership of the church. Most Sundays I just want to hide because I feel like people are just looking to see what they can get me to do - callings, visiting teaching, subbing for a class, a meal to someone. I feel like I'm wrong if I try to muster the courage to say no.Then, at home, I'm constantly catering to the needs of my children. "Mom, I need this!" I feel like everyone tells me what to do. This thread has talked about mind control and I understand that an evil spirit can just take complete control if you let it, but sometimes I feel like I have to follow so many others and I just am not able to comply with so many demands. I choose to follow the Savior but I didn't realize I'd get so bossed around all the way there. I'm sorry, this sounds too negative.
I can relate, Butterfly!
As Jwharton implied, the greatest commandments are to
LOVE:
1) God
2) Ourselves
3) Others
There is an African proverb that says, "Be weary of the naked man who offers you his shirt."
You can't give what you don't have!
As mothers, we give, give, give. We are the mothers of all living - at least I feel that way!
Whoever comes my way, I feel motherly care toward.
Yet - I realized that I could not keep giving without loving myself - and in fact, if I did, the giving could be more harmful than good.
Giving out of a sense of obligation feels bad. Giving out of an outpouring of your own natural love (from God) feels great!
The ultimate challenge of life is to balance and harmonize loving others AS well as ourselves.

It's ok to say "No." Really, it is.
And "No." is a complete sentence - so don't fall for any guilt trips.
The Mormon culture seems to imply that saying "no" is a sin - but it isn't.
It is of God, to say no, if asked to give based on debt (emotionally, physically, financially etc.).
Take care of and love yourself - it is among the TOP commandments that prioritize above "all the law and the prophets."

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Re: How Cults Work

Postby Cookies » Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:21 pm

butterfly wrote:
jwharton wrote: I think the issue here is if you look at spiritual union with a good, noble and righteous spirit as a loss of your own vs. having your own endowed.

Not that it will cause us to lose our individual will, but because it is the Father's Plan to discipline us into having the intelligence to stand as a sovereign being who stands firmly in their individual rights while also knowing how to honor and respect others in their individual rights.
What you have referenced is what I am trying to figure out. I'm trying to understand if I can ever hope to attain individual sovereignty at some point of eternal progression, or if I will always be at the lower rung of the command chain. I feel like I'm constantly being told to follow someone: I'm supposed to follow my husband, to follow the Holy Ghost, the Savior, and Heavenly Father's commands, to follow the leadership of the church. Most Sundays I just want to hide because I feel like people are just looking to see what they can get me to do - callings, visiting teaching, subbing for a class, a meal to someone. I feel like I'm wrong if I try to muster the courage to say no.Then, at home, I'm constantly catering to the needs of my children. "Mom, I need this!" I feel like everyone tells me what to do. This thread has talked about mind control and I understand that an evil spirit can just take complete control if you let it, but sometimes I feel like I have to follow so many others and I just am not able to comply with so many demands. I choose to follow the Savior but I didn't realize I'd get so bossed around all the way there. I'm sorry, this sounds too negative.
I think it sounds honest!
My 6 year old feels the same way.
I asked her what she learned in Primary one week and she yelled "Rules rules rules! That's all we ever learn about!!" :))

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Re: How Cults Work

Postby butterfly » Fri Sep 11, 2015 11:15 pm

Thinker wrote: There is an African proverb that says, "Be weary of the naked man who offers you his shirt."
You can't give what you don't have!
This is very logical and hard to argue with, I like this quote.

Giving out of a sense of obligation feels bad. Giving out of an outpouring of your own natural love (from God) feels great!
I like how you worded this. I remember an FHE we had when I was little, we were taught that "God doesn't let His children come home if they disobey Him - so if you kids screw up, you're out of our home, too!"
It took me awhile to figure out why that teaching was skewed. But what it did was make it so I always had to do everything perfectly while growing up or else I would be shown the door. I often interpret church this way. That I have to do everything asked of me and at 100% or I'm out of the Celestial Kingdom. Thank goodness for the atonement. I really appreciate your comments :)

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Re: How Cults Work

Postby a_member » Sat Sep 12, 2015 1:10 am

Thinker wrote:There are so many screwed up aspects of our church, and there's so many good things. Pretending it's either all good or all evil, is polarized/bi-polar thinking. A person or a group with bipolar thinking disorder, struggles because of ignoring the negative - and feeling high with feeling perfect and wonderful... Then, when they realize it isn't all wonderful, they think it's completely awful. The key is to realize the church, (made up of people) is a mix of good and bad, it's not all evil nor all good.
Semi-OT, but along the lines of what you said here:
Jacob 5:64-66

64 Wherefore, dig about them, and prune them, and dung them once more, for the last time, for the end draweth nigh. And if it be so that these last grafts shall grow, and bring forth the natural fruit, then shall ye prepare the way for them, that they may grow.

65 And as they begin to grow ye shall clear away the branches which bring forth bitter fruit, according to the strength of the good and the size thereof; and ye shall not clear away the bad thereof all at once, lest the roots thereof should be too strong for the graft, and the graft thereof shall perish, and I lose the trees of my vineyard.

66 For it grieveth me that I should lose the trees of my vineyard; wherefore ye shall clear away the bad according as the good shall grow, that the root and the top may be equal in strength, until the good shall overcome the bad, and the bad be hewn down and cast into the fire, that they cumber not the ground of my vineyard; and thus will I sweep away the bad out of my vineyard.
IMO, this process is at work currently in the Church (and the rest of the world too).

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Re: How Cults Work

Postby a_member » Sat Sep 12, 2015 1:27 am

butterfly wrote:I like how you worded this. I remember an FHE we had when I was little, we were taught that "God doesn't let His children come home if they disobey Him - so if you kids screw up, you're out of our home, too!"
It took me awhile to figure out why that teaching was skewed. But what it did was make it so I always had to do everything perfectly while growing up or else I would be shown the door. I often interpret church this way. That I have to do everything asked of me and at 100% or I'm out of the Celestial Kingdom. Thank goodness for the atonement. I really appreciate your comments :)
"God doesn't let His children come home if they disobey Him"

Wow... IMO that's not true at all. That's the whole point of the Atonement, that we can go home even if we're not always obedient. I've seen it taught that using the Atonement is somehow causing more insult and/or injury to Christ. That IMO is totally contrary to the spirit of love in which He gave us that gift. Both of these sentiments make it seem like redemption is some sort of zero-sum game, where you're supposed to do as little bad as possible. And, when you do screw up, you better change quick before you cause more harm.

The Atonement powers change, so the more I change the more I'm using the grace of God available because of the Atonement. In fact it is impossible to change some things without God's grace, and He freely gives that grace to people who are humble and ask for it (Ether 12:27). The "natural man" is in everyone, and nobody can get rid of it through their own efforts. Even seeing what our natural man looks like is beyond our ability, hence why Christ says in Ether "if men come unto me, I will show unto them their weakness".

Man, I really hope I never give my kids the impression that a single mistake will cause them to be evicted from my house. And, I hope they learn not to let anyone else "should" on them.

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Re: How Cults Work

Postby Joel » Sat Sep 12, 2015 8:16 pm

Before the photoshop job :)

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Re: How Cults Work

Postby Joel » Sun Sep 13, 2015 6:46 am

Before the photoshop job :)

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Re: How Cults Work

Postby Joel » Mon Nov 02, 2015 9:42 am

Before the photoshop job :)

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Re: How Cults Work

Postby caddis » Mon Nov 02, 2015 11:24 am

Joel wrote:
People can leave the church, but they can't leave it alone. Had she not questioned the brethren, she wouldn't have been labeled an evil apostate. Because she decided to travel down the path of questioning, her testimony was shattered and she found herself on the outside of the church. I'm sure her life will go down the tubes now that she no longer has the church in her life.
All truth goes through three phases: First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self evident.
--Arthur Schopenhauer

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Re: How Cults Work

Postby Joel » Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:34 pm

Before the photoshop job :)

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Re: How Cults Work

Postby Joel » Wed Nov 30, 2016 2:13 pm

Before the photoshop job :)

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Re: How Cults Work

Postby FTC » Wed Nov 30, 2016 6:58 pm

This is much more fitting for this place

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doomsday_cult
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Re: How Cults Work

Postby Joel » Sat Jan 07, 2017 7:03 am

Before the photoshop job :)

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Re: How Cults Work

Postby Joel » Mon Feb 20, 2017 3:52 pm

Before the photoshop job :)

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Re: How Cults Work

Postby Joel » Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:11 pm

Robert J. Lifotn speaks about the psychology of thought reform and methods involved.
Before the photoshop job :)

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Re: How Cults Work

Postby Joel » Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:50 pm

Before the photoshop job :)

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Woman Claims She Was Branded During Bizarre Sisterhood Initiation

Postby Joel » Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:04 pm

Before the photoshop job :)

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Re: How Cults Work

Postby CelestialAngel » Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:09 pm

The problem is many religions and cults believe in God so it's important to know you're in the right God worshipping group. Or is God bigger than any religion?

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Re: How Cults Work

Postby Joel » Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:26 pm

CelestialAngel wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:09 pm
The problem is many religions and cults believe in God so it's important to know you're in the right God worshipping group. Or is God bigger than any religion?

Seems this is the main source why there are so many groups:

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Re: How Cults Work

Postby Joel » Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:44 pm

Before the photoshop job :)


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