How Cults Work

[natasha]

Agreed Lizzy but we both know what he's insinuating by this post...and it's just a load of crap

Thanks little girl! Tell it like it is...and I'm sorry that I didn't.

[TannerG]

Caddis,
You seem to be doing better too. That's good!
Still, I won't say it's easy or comfortable to break out of a life-encompassing cult, especially when all around you - even your spouse - are against you. And church leaders overstepping their authority, as if it's against the law in UT to question the dominating religious cult culture. I've looked for truth wherever I can find it and have realized repeatedly that there are no "gurus" or "prophets" out there. And often those professing to be such are among the most deluded.

I've often felt like God is urging me to look to God only, but I'm so used to looking to others.
God is love.
How many are "lookin' for love in all the wrong places"?

A hearty amen to this post!

[Phoenixstar117]

Caddis,
You seem to be doing better too. That's good!
Still, I won't say it's easy or comfortable to break out of a life-encompassing cult, especially when all around you - even your spouse - are against you. And church leaders overstepping their authority, as if it's against the law in UT to question the dominating religious cult culture. I've looked for truth wherever I can find it and have realized repeatedly that there are no "gurus" or "prophets" out there. And often those professing to be such are among the most deluded.

I've often felt like God is urging me to look to God only, but I'm so used to looking to others.
God is love.
How many are "lookin' for love in all the wrong places"?

A hearty amen to this post!

The true teacher doesn't direct your attention to themselves.

In Buddhism, the allegory of a hand or finger(guru or prophet) pointing to the moon(the divine) is used. But many would mistake the finger for the moon. Hence it only adds to the difficulty of the student or disciple if the teacher draws even more attention to that finger.

[Thinker]

A respected friend told me I was in a cult and at first I was defensive, but then I began looking into it and sure enough, our church fits many characteristics.

Still, I see cult qualities in any group - and often those who come to hate the Mormon "cult" just move to another cult, adopting even more dysfunctional ideologies, like killing children as birth control, calling those who don't support legal "rights" based on sexual substitutes, "homophobes" or "bigots" (cult-like shunning), or making fun of "climate deniers" who object to spending billion$ on "climate change" bs.

You can take a person out of a cult, but it's tough to take the cult out of the person.

And please correct me if I'm wrong...any cult that I have heard of makes it pretty darn impossible for you to leave.

Yes, and often, they have a terrible time understanding the word "NO."
IE: When a stake leader and bishopric leader went behind my back to get my child to attend something without my permission, and even against my permission.
IE: When a church leader sent missionaries to my house when I missed a Sunday, after above conflict.
IE: A ward member came to my door and asked me to be in charge of something. I said "no" and was asked again and again, until I finally said I'd do some, but not be in charge.

Or more commonly, when leaders send VT/HT's or other members or missionaries out to "fellowship" or "reactivate" those "inactive."
When you grow up in it, you think it's normal.

Regarding the Liberal cult, I don't think it is as invasive as the lds cult, but it can be. I've been verbally abused and even personally harassed by some, who insisted everyone support homosexual "marriage" and killing (aborting) children as birth control.
There are various cult mentalities - and various degrees and means of cult influence.
Just because one is found to be screwed up, don't go run to another, because another "group" will simply be a different set of cult-like ideologies.

[Thinker]

Caddis,
You seem to be doing better too. That's good!
Still, I won't say it's easy or comfortable to break out of a life-encompassing cult, especially when all around you - even your spouse - are against you. And church leaders overstepping their authority, as if it's against the law in UT to question the dominating religious cult culture. I've looked for truth wherever I can find it and have realized repeatedly that there are no "gurus" or "prophets" out there. And often those professing to be such are among the most deluded.

I've often felt like God is urging me to look to God only, but I'm so used to looking to others.
God is love.
How many are "lookin' for love in all the wrong places"?

A hearty amen to this post!

The true teacher doesn't direct your attention to themselves.

In Buddhism, the allegory of a hand or finger(guru or prophet) pointing to the moon(the divine) is used. But many would mistake the finger for the moon. Hence it only adds to the difficulty of the student or disciple if the teacher draws even more attention to that finger.

Good analogy!
So much of what we think and experience is symbolic.
Even these letters I'm typing - just symbols, which when combined certain ways, create more symbolic meaning in words and sentences.
If I looked at the letter, literally - and said, "I don't like how the "I" is shaped - so I don't like I."
It's missing the point of what was being said.

Similarly, if a prophet or guru focus too much on themselves, or if others practically worship them ("follow the prophet"), they detract from the meaning they are supposed to be teaching.
Personally, I'm fighting to get out of the life-time habit of looking to "authorities" or external sources for inner healing and spiritual growth.

BTW - thanks Tanner!

[Thinker]

I would say the lds church definitely has many cult aspects if not completing its cycle to become a cult. As a tbm I remember many bro and sisters fawning at the idea of being able to be in the presence of a 12. Other ideas like we are the only ones who have the truth, you need us to be saved, you can only trust the holy Ghost if it agrees with us, there are no miracles outside of our one true church, if a miracle does exist it was made by Satan, only the 12 can speak on behalf of God.

There is emotional control in a lot of use of guilt and shame to cohort people into doing things. I think people are taught to give there will to church and leadership on basis of the only legit power and authority. This is the most dangerous ones for me cause it resembles Satan's plan, give me your will, don't think just do. I feel like definitely they have placed the leadership of the church as the replacement for God. They teach you to give your entire will to them. To avoid thinking once a teaching is decreed as truth. You can't question and if you do your seen as broken goods.

I remember being taught to avoid people who weren't as squeaky clean as the lds, supposedly were. There is information control, like only read church approved material, and also for your time to be so saturated that your life revolves around the church, no necessarily Christ though.

Your whole life is planned for you from the get go, the mission is a must, temple marriage right after, and don't forget about having a large family. Choice is not given. I remember being on the mission and many bros there only for the status it would give them when they would come back. I remember girls being taught only to marry rms. No choice on callings, you just have to do it.

Paying you tithing for fire insurance. Telling you that out of it you would prosper monetarily out of it. The whole idea of bearing your testimony will bring a testimony, I've never seen that in any scripture, it has always been by calling out to God and He manifesting the truth to you. That idea is very creepy especially when applied to little children. I think this last conference one of the dudes there said the same thing, record it and play it back at night. Yep culty.

I can remember many people who were baptized without any testimony at all.

Also a dead effect where service and people in church are robotic, there has been very few times that I met sincere Christ like people that would be there for you no matter the circumstance. There was always groups, no oneness in the members.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUsOHsZIiA4

Many valid, relevant points.

The clip made me consider the difference between brainwashing (which is more obvious and known) than more subtle mind control.
"Mind Control (also known as brainwashing, reeducation, coercive persuasion, thought control, or thought reform) is a theoretical indoctrination process which results in "an impairment of autonomy, an inability to think independently, and a disruption of beliefs and affiliations."

Also, the cult shames you, so that if there is a negative feeling, it is YOU, not the evil being taught.
So much of a cult is an example of evil and lies - in pretending to force someone back.

But again, there is a need to avoid all-or-nothing thinking.
Yes, our church qualifies in multiple ways, as a harmful cult (which is partly why so many in our church struggle with mental illness).
Still, the church does offer good in many ways - so take the good and leave the rest (and by leaving, you may need to have strong boundaries!).
And... THINK for yourself - don't run from lds-group thought to another maybe even more dysfunctional group thought.

[Bee Prepared]

" Don't run from lds-group thought to another maybe even more dysfunction group thought"

" Sometimes faithful Latter-day Saints and sincere investigators begin to focus on the “appendages” instead of on the fundamental principles. That is, Satan tempts us to become distracted from the simple and clear message of the restored gospel. Those so distracted often give up partaking of the sacrament because they have become focused, even preoccupied, with less important practices or teachings."

M. Russell Ballard

[Thinker]

BeePrepared,
We agree!! :ymparty:

At least we agree about the need to avoid all-or-nothing thinking.
The church (made up of imperfect people and doctrine) is not 100% good nor 100% evil, but an interesting mix.

[Bee Prepared]

BeePrepared,
We agree!! :ymparty:

At least we agree about the need to avoid all-or-nothing thinking.
The church (made up of imperfect people and doctrine) is not 100% good nor 100% evil, but an interesting mix.

:ymparty: :ymparty: haha!

I like this from Pres. Uchtdorf,

“Some struggle with unanswered questions about things that have been done or said in the past. We openly acknowledge that in nearly 200 years of Church history, along with an uninterrupted line of inspired, honorable, and divine events, there have been some things said and done that could cause people to question.” And the talk went on to allow—a rare admission in Mormonism—that LDS leaders have sometimes made mistakes, plain and simple. “And to be perfectly frank, there have been times when members or leaders in the Church have simply made mistakes. There may have been things said or done that were not in harmony with our values, principles, or doctrine. I suppose the Church would only be perfect if it were run by perfect beings. God is perfect, and His doctrine is pure. But he works through us, his imperfect children. And imperfect people make mistakes.” - See more at: http://janariess.religionnews.com/2013/ ... lbqgl.dpuf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[djinwa]

So we're told our leaders are directed by God, but sometimes they make mistakes. So is God telling them the wrong thing, or are they not listening, or what?

And if members then have to decide which of the things the leaders say is right and which is wrong, then what good are they? Why not just figure it out for yourself?

Sure sounds like people are deciding in advance what they want to believe, and when something is right, its evidence of truth, and if something is wrong, they make excuses.

It would be unethical in science to discount the data that doesn't support your hypothesis. Likewise in the justice system, it would be wrong to conceal or overlook evidence that doesn't support the desired verdict.

But somehow in religion, where we preach honesty, we consider it a good thing to cherry pick the evidence to support our beliefs.

This all occurred to me one day in church when a member of the bishopric who became a millionaire peddling a MLM scheme, for which there was no evidence of its worth, was bearing testimony of the church.

[LDS Dude]

I also highly recommend people look into how Monarch Mind-Control works...
I could of course be mistaken as I didn't hang around long enough to get any proof and I'm not into trying to crusade against it. I simply saw enough evidences to cause me great concern and be suspicious and to want to get the heck out of it..

So, I have heard of the MK-ultra stuff, it's supposed to especially be used in the music industry to control celebrities, sex slaves, etc. So, you say you saw enough to lead you to be suspicious, like what? Can you elaborate? In my mind bringing up Mitt Romney and Mk-ultra in the same sentence seems like quite a stretch and undermines possible credibility.

[jwharton]

I also highly recommend people look into how Monarch Mind-Control works...
I could of course be mistaken as I didn't hang around long enough to get any proof and I'm not into trying to crusade against it. I simply saw enough evidences to cause me great concern and be suspicious and to want to get the heck out of it..

So, I have heard of the MK-ultra stuff, it's supposed to especially be used in the music industry to control celebrities, sex slaves, etc. So, you say you saw enough to lead you to be suspicious, like what? Can you elaborate? In my mind bringing up Mitt Romney and Mk-ultra in the same sentence seems like quite a stretch and undermines possible credibility.

This was talked about here on these forums.
See here:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1318" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I put quite a bit of information already.

The key aspect is the torture/stress induced schizophrenia. Not sure what else to add since thankfully my personal involvement with those using its principles has been quite limited.

If you are looking at a general level, look at youth who can clean up and look nice and holy when passing the sacrament, but then you find out they have an alter-ego that allows them to be involved with intensely iniquitous behavior at rave parties, etc. Many of our youth are being destroyed by having fractured identities. I am confident our media and entertainment has been designed along the principles they have discovered to do this to them.

[Thinker]

So we're told our leaders are directed by God, but sometimes they make mistakes. So is God telling them the wrong thing, or are they not listening, or what?

And if members then have to decide which of the things the leaders say is right and which is wrong, then what good are they? Why not just figure it out for yourself?

Sure sounds like people are deciding in advance what they want to believe, and when something is right, its evidence of truth, and if something is wrong, they make excuses.

It would be unethical in science to discount the data that doesn't support your hypothesis. Likewise in the justice system, it would be wrong to conceal or overlook evidence that doesn't support the desired verdict.

But somehow in religion, where we preach honesty, we consider it a good thing to cherry pick the evidence to support our beliefs.

This all occurred to me one day in church when a member of the bishopric who became a millionaire peddling a MLM scheme, for which there was no evidence of its worth, was bearing testimony of the church.

I agree with you too. (So agreeable lately. ;) )

What bothers, concerns and even scares me more than anything is herd mentality.
Mobs act insane, whereas individuals by themselves are usually pretty civil.

What is it about being in a group (political, religious, sport fans)- like tribal - but haven't we moved on?
Why do so very few people think for themselves rather than go along with illogically harmful peer pressure?

[Thinker]

http://www.howcultswork.com/

Key Points:
-Cult members are usually very fearful of disobeying or disagreeing in anyway with their leadership. Healthy organizations however are not threatened by openly debating issues.

-If you are instructed by a group not to read information critical of the group, then that is a sign of a cult.
-Legitimate groups have nothing to fear from their members reading critical information about them.
-Is information you expected to be kept confidential reported to leadership? If so, then it’s a cult.
-Never ending compulsory meeting and tasks is a sign of a cult.
-Research the group independently of the group.

Key Warning Signs:
• Say they are the only true group, or the best so why go anywhere else.
• Asking for money for the next level.

I read a few similar, but slightly different signs...

Warning Signs of a Potentially Harmful Group/Leader:

1. Totalitarian: Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.

2. Little tolerance: No place for questions or critical inquiry.

3. Unreasonable fears: Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.

4. Never good enough: Followers feel they can never be good enough.

5. No reason to leave: Former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.

Shermer's definition of a cult:

"Veneration of the leader: Glorification of the leader to the point of virtual sainthood or divinity."

"Omniscience of the leader: Acceptance of the leader's beliefs and pronouncement on all subjects, from the philosophical to the trivial."

"Persuasive techniques: Methods, from benign to coercive, used to recruit new followers and reinforce current beliefs."

"Hidden Agendas: The true nature of the group's beliefs and plans is obscured from or not fully disclosed to potential recruits and the general public".

Deceit: Recruits and followers are not told everything they should know about the leader and the group's inner circle, and particularly disconcerting flaws or potentially embarrassing events or circumstances are covered up.

Financial...: Recruits and followers are persuaded to invest money and other assets in the group...

Absolute Truth: Belief that the leader and/or group has discovered final knowledge on any number of subjects.

Absolute morality: Belief that the leader and/or the group has developed a system of riqht and wrong thought and action applicable to members and nonmembers alike. Those who strictly follow the moral code become and remain members; those who do not are dismissed or punished.


I hope and pray that members THINK, for themselves, study and pray for personal revelation straight from God, and don't trust in the arm of the flesh!

[log]

I wonder - anyone have any examples of religions which don't fall under Shermer's definition?

[Joel]

I wonder - anyone have any examples of religions which don't fall under Shermer's definition?

The way John Hamer describes the Community of Christ maybe, I have no idea if it is actually the way he describes:

[Thinker]

I wonder - anyone have any examples of religions which don't fall under Shermer's definition?

Some degree of cult mentality can be found in many groups - even sport fan clubs.
However, most religions are not excessively involved in people's every day lives - controling how they spend their time and money, what underwear they wear, keeping finances dark and secret while using mind-control to charge money in return for a temple recommend and demanding they follow their prophet even if it contradicts Christ's teachings...

I love our church for some of the cult-like qualities - like instant sense of community and opportunities to serve or be served. Sitting in conference, was beautiful listening to the Mormon Tabernacle choir, but when the audience of about 30,000 began singing, my heart lept - and I got chills. There is strength in numbers and there is something inspiring when such a tremendous force of people unify in a simple purpose of singing.

Yet, it's not all-or-nothing. The church can have beautiful aspects and still have some negative - even harmful - ones.
Many members - especially in UT (which leads nation in anti-depressants) struggle with depression and anxiety.
In a book (by TBM LDS authors - Beyond Death's Door) - was explained that it's estimated that up to 80% of mental illness is rooted in Christian or Judaic misinterpretations of doctrine.
Utah (significantly lds) is 4th in nation for high statistics of bankruptcy and while most of the nation is seeing decreases, UT's bankruptcies are increasing.
There is significant reason to embrace the inspiring aspects of our church, while being cautious of the harmful aspects.

[Jim Kelley]

Thomas S. Monson is charismatic???? Oh please.

The Prophet Joseph Smith and The Prophet Brigham Young were as is Jesus Christ too.

Lucky for us these three Prophets were and are leaders of The One and Only True Church in the whole world.

That is the difference that should never be forgotten!

Brother Jim

[Sirocco]

I wonder - anyone have any examples of religions which don't fall under Shermer's definition?

I love our church for some of the cult-like qualities - like instant sense of community and opportunities to serve or be served.

I'll admit, as much of an angry loner I can be, it was genuinely nice to have people want to talk to me, or just sit with me, though the face I must have made when that first happened... They were just so casual about it, and I found them very kind, even if I didn't agree with everything they believed.
And I suppose in my own warped way, not joining was my way of thanking them, because I cause all sorts of weird problems and can be very argumentative :))

[KMCopeland]

If you are looking at a general level, look at youth who can clean up and look nice and holy when passing the sacrament, but then you find out they have an alter-ego that allows them to be involved with intensely iniquitous behavior at rave parties, etc. Many of our youth are being destroyed by having fractured identities. I am confident our media and entertainment has been designed along the principles they have discovered to do this to them.

Hard for me to believe that was intentional.

[Thinker]

KMCopeland,
It's hard for me to believe it is not intentional.
Media is becoming trashier and it is mostly run by a cult-like exclusionary group of people, who are also "unquestionable" (any questioning is labeled with ad hominem attack, "anti-semantism").

Seven Jewish Americans Control Most US Media/Jewish Dominance Of America - Facts Are Facts
http://www.rense.com/general44/sevenjewishamericans.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.rense.com/general59/sdom.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Comprehensive Lists of the Jews Who Dominate Us
http://www.dailystormer.com/comprehensi ... minate-us/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I wonder - anyone have any examples of religions which don't fall under Shermer's definition?

I love our church for some of the cult-like qualities - like instant sense of community and opportunities to serve or be served.

I'll admit, as much of an angry loner I can be, it was genuinely nice to have people want to talk to me, or just sit with me, though the face I must have made when that first happened... They were just so casual about it, and I found them very kind, even if I didn't agree with everything they believed.
And I suppose in my own warped way, not joining was my way of thanking them, because I cause all sorts of weird problems and can be very argumentative :))

I know people who have joined for the same reason - a sense of community.
We all need it - that's at least partly why everyone posts on this forum - craving a sense of connection.

The problem is when the group requires a compromise of principles to belong.
This happens in friend-circles, families and churches - like ours.

[Fiannan]

If you are looking at a general level, look at youth who can clean up and look nice and holy when passing the sacrament, but then you find out they have an alter-ego that allows them to be involved with intensely iniquitous behavior at rave parties, etc. Many of our youth are being destroyed by having fractured identities. I am confident our media and entertainment has been designed along the principles they have discovered to do this to them.

Hard for me to believe that was intentional.

KMC, you need to look up the BBC documentary "Century of the Self" and watch at least parts 1-2. I would encourage you to watch all four parts. Then you will see just how intentional the consumeristic forces and government change agents really can be.

[KMCopeland]

If you are looking at a general level, look at youth who can clean up and look nice and holy when passing the sacrament, but then you find out they have an alter-ego that allows them to be involved with intensely iniquitous behavior at rave parties, etc. Many of our youth are being destroyed by having fractured identities. I am confident our media and entertainment has been designed along the principles they have discovered to do this to them.

Hard for me to believe that was intentional.

KMC, you need to look up the BBC documentary "Century of the Self" and watch at least parts 1-2. I would encourage you to watch all four parts. Then you will see just how intentional the consumeristic forces and government change agents really can be.

Sounds worthwhile. I'll set aside the time.

[Fiannan]

Actually KMC I think everyone would benefit from watching Century of the Self. For the most part conservatives and liberals alike are naive about just how much they are slaves to marketing, cultural bias and political propaganda.

[jwharton]

jwharton wrote:
"If you are looking at a general level, look at youth who can clean up and look nice and holy when passing the sacrament, but then you find out they have an alter-ego that allows them to be involved with intensely iniquitous behavior at rave parties, etc. Many of our youth are being destroyed by having fractured identities. I am confident our media and entertainment has been designed along the principles they have discovered to do this to them."

Hard for me to believe that was intentional.

KMC, you need to look up the BBC documentary "Century of the Self" and watch at least parts 1-2. I would encourage you to watch all four parts. Then you will see just how intentional the consumeristic forces and government change agents really can be.

Sounds worthwhile. I'll set aside the time.

Yes, this documentary is for sure worth the time. Kudos for suggesting it.