Are we suppose to pay tithing on our "Surplus Property" to?

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jbalm
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Re: Are we suppose to pay tithing on our "Surplus Property"

Post by jbalm »

Ezra wrote:
jbalm wrote:Hopefully, you won't ever have a kid who gets seriously ill or injured. Refusal to get them medical care because "you can't afford it" will end up in CPS placing the child with a more suitable parent...if the child survives.

I've seen it happen. And it's one of the few instances where I agreed with CPS.
Your comment dose not surprise me at all. I had the feeling that you don't belive in the power promises and miracles of God.

I don't have to worry about that though. It would have to be a big bill to tap out the resources that the lord has provided me and my family. And if the state tryed to take my children it would be over my dead body In my children's defence.
Nor does yours suprise me. It's usually those who claim not to be judgemental that judge people the most.

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Obrien
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Re: Are we suppose to pay tithing on our "Surplus Property"

Post by Obrien »

shadow wrote:This is who The Lord put as stewards over tithing funds-
1 Verily, thus saith the Lord, the time is now come, that it shall be disposed of by a council, composed of the First Presidency of my Church, and of the bishop and his council, and by my high council; and by mine own voice unto them, saith the Lord. Even so. Amen.
That has not been rescinded.
Even Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek.

I know many feel free to mingle their own philosophies with scripture, but that doesn't make it correct.
I do pay tithes to the church - probably not what YOU would consider a full tithe, but a tithe I am comfortable with. would it make you feel better if I said I use the rest if what I used to pay as tithing and give it directly to those in need? save me the rhetoric about it not being a tithe unless it passes through the "legal administrators".

Ezra
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Re: Are we suppose to pay tithing on our "Surplus Property"

Post by Ezra »

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Last edited by Ezra on January 5th, 2015, 8:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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shadow
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Re: Are we suppose to pay tithing on our "Surplus Property"

Post by shadow »

Obrien wrote:
shadow wrote:This is who The Lord put as stewards over tithing funds-
1 Verily, thus saith the Lord, the time is now come, that it shall be disposed of by a council, composed of the First Presidency of my Church, and of the bishop and his council, and by my high council; and by mine own voice unto them, saith the Lord. Even so. Amen.
That has not been rescinded.
Even Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek.

I know many feel free to mingle their own philosophies with scripture, but that doesn't make it correct.
I do pay tithes to the church - probably not what YOU would consider a full tithe, but a tithe I am comfortable with. would it make you feel better if I said I use the rest if what I used to pay as tithing and give it directly to those in need? save me the rhetoric about it not being a tithe unless it passes through the "legal administrators".
I don't care what, how or if you tithe.
I was simply pointing out your philosophies were yours and not scriptural. You suggested Ezra just donate his food to the poor as tithing. That's nice, but that's not tithing.

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Grudunza
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Re: Are we suppose to pay tithing on our "Surplus Property"

Post by Grudunza »

freedomforall wrote:
Ezra wrote:
jbalm wrote:It really depends on the reason the debt was incurred.
So what is godly debt vs. Worldly debt.?
Tithing should be paid first, not after paying bills. How and why people get themselves deep in debt is their own problem, although we've been counseled over and over not to get into debt.
Problem is that paying tithing without first accounting for our needs and debts leads to the possibility of debt, or further debt. We should first be accountable to our families and to our debtors to what is required and owed them, and then, from what remains, we pay a tenth as a tithe.

Example: A person who has $2,000 of income per month and $1,900 of legitimate expenses. They could pay $200 for tithing before accounting for anything else and then be in debt, potentially incurring fault with landlords or on their mortgage or vehicle, or denying their family of food or medicine, or requiring the Church to bail them out or otherwise burdening family and friends to bail them out of trouble again and again, Or, they can responsibly pay for all of their needs, pay their landlord and so forth, incurring no debt, and then pay an honest tithe of $10, which leaves them $90 to use for charitable contributions, food storage, savings, leisure, etc., and leaves the resources of the Church available for other persons whose income does not even equal their expenses, or who have no income at all.

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Rick Grimes
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Re: Are we suppose to pay tithing on our "Surplus Property"

Post by Rick Grimes »

i work managing business units for a large corporation here in the southern region of the U.S. I get a report every month that shows how much gross and net sales they each bring for that fiscal period. (Let's compare this to the average joe bringing home a paycheck that also shows a gross income and a net income). Many here would suggest that average Joe should pay from his net pay shown on his check, and then he pay for his expenses the best he can. However, if this were the universal law for all, we would have an insane number of wealthy Lds business owners in bankruptcy! Take for example one my units that I oversee. Let's say the net income of this unit for one period were 100k dollars. (Keep the math simple). According to this logic of paying on the net before expenses, the owners of this business unit would have to pay 10k dollars, right? Sounds "reasonable", right? After all 90k is still "plenty of money" to pay for our needs right? Except that we still have to consider that the vendors and suppliers have to still be paid. There goes about 40 percent of our entire entire 100k net sales. (100k - 40k= 60k). So that leaves the owners with a gain of 60k, right? That's still good right? Except that we forgot that our workers don't work for free so we have to also pay them for thier labors. That's another 40 percent after factoring in payroll taxes, insurance, sick time, vacation time, 401k, bonuses, etc.... So where are we now?? (Let's see, 60k - 40k = 20k, right) 20k is still good right? That's still "a lot of money" to pay for our needs, right? But wait, we forgot we still have to also pay our own utilities. (Water, electricity, garbage, gas, etc..)that's another 3k. (20k- 3k = 17k) 17k is still "plenty of money", right? Oh, but let's not forget equipment upgrades, maintenance services, repair services, contract services, etc... Another 2k. (17k - 2k =15k). 15k should be "plenty of money" right? Oops, except that I forgot to pay for marketing such as tv, print, radio, and Internet. That's another thousand. (15k- 1k= 14k). We're still good though, right? Oops, forgot the government wants their cut too. Gotta pay property taxes, corporate taxes, city and state taxes, etc.... That's another another 4k. (14k- 4k = 10k). Okay so now we have 10k left. Oh wait, no we don't, we already paid 10k in tithing so we have nothing left. Seems odd that the Lord would expect us to pay such an oppressive tax to curry His favor. Literally the cost of His favor would be to see our women and children starve and be homeless??
Obviously, this is a misunderstanding on our part if we believe the Lord is so callous as to not understand that there is a "cost" to doing business that needs to be satisfied before any surplus or profit can be properly accounted for.
Average Joe also has "costs of doing business" except they aren't nicely captured in a P&L report. Joe has to pay for shelter(can't have a job being homeless). Joe has to buy food. (Can't hold a job let alone stay alive for very long, if we have no calorie intake) joe has to pay for transportation. (Get over it, we live in an age where commuting is essential) Joe has to pay for medical insurances. (Can't expect Joe to survive very long not taking care of himself) Joe has to pay for his clothing. (Joe can't be running around nude). Joe has to pay his taxes. (Render to Ceasar or else, Joe will be homeless or incarcerated). Joe has to pay for all the day to day costs of living- phone, auto insurance, life insurance, wife and kids.
Joe must pay for all of these expenses or not only will his own well being put in jeopardy, but that of his wife and kids. Truly, this is NOT the Lord's command nor intention. Tithing has always meant "surplus" or extra after the costs of business are satisfied.
I think it a great disservice for anybody to brow beat the "Joe's" out there just trying to make it, because they aren't paying a "true" tithe. (At least to their dogmatic interpretation of tithing, anyways...) :-?

freedomforall
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Re: Are we suppose to pay tithing on our "Surplus Property"

Post by freedomforall »

shadow wrote:This is who The Lord put as stewards over tithing funds-
1 Verily, thus saith the Lord, the time is now come, that it shall be disposed of by a council, composed of the First Presidency of my Church, and of the bishop and his council, and by my high council; and by mine own voice unto them, saith the Lord. Even so. Amen.
That has not been rescinded.
Even Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek.

I know many feel free to mingle their own philosophies with scripture, but that doesn't make it correct.
+1

Bump
Last edited by freedomforall on January 5th, 2015, 8:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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jbalm
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Re: Are we suppose to pay tithing on our "Surplus Property"

Post by jbalm »

Ezra wrote: When you threaten my kids the gloves come off.
I know members who have reported other members whom they judge as being bad parents because they belive differently then those who they turned in.

The people they turned in homeschooled their children. And the cps took their children away. They were good people who didn't want their children corrupted by the government run forced preidtcraft schools.

Your statement to me is a threat. And so help me god I would kill to protect my children from people like you and the state who don't know correct godly principles. And I also know that I would be justified in doing so.

God entrusted those children to those parents. If God trusts them who the hell are you to think you know better then God.

You have obliviously pushed my buttons. And I'm up in arms right now over it. If you were standing in front of me you wouldn't walk away from this conversation. And I would feel really bad about it after wards.

It's not smart to threaten people's children. Your messing with God when you do.

My last statement and Probley this one as well is tainted with those feeling that come from trying to protect others from the force of satan. Which is the force of the state.

All I have to say is your statement is a total a$$ thing to ever say or do.
Ha. People pay me to give them advice on avoiding CPS. It wasn't a threat. It was merely a statement of fact. No charge. You're welcome.

But I must say, your e-toughness is impressive. It must be difficult for you to be hundreds of miles away from those that you castigate for incurring debt, incorporating Santa into their Christmas celebrations, or not believing your insipid bigfoot story (while simultaneously reminding us how non-judgmental you are). Everyone would have to accept your mental illness-inspired messages if you were only able to stand toe to toe with them.

Guys like you make the internet entertaining.

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jbalm
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Re: Are we suppose to pay tithing on our "Surplus Property"

Post by jbalm »

No surprise there.

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shadow
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Re: Are we suppose to pay tithing on our "Surplus Property"

Post by shadow »

Ezra wrote:
Your statement to me is a threat. And so help me god I would kill to protect my children from people like you and the state who don't know correct godly principles. And I also know that I would be justified in doing so.

God entrusted those children to those parents. If God trusts them who the hell are you to think you know better then God.

You have obliviously pushed my buttons. And I'm up in arms right now over it. If you were standing in front of me you wouldn't walk away from this conversation. And I would feel really bad about it after wards.

It's not smart to threaten people's children. Your messing with God when you do.


All I have to say is your statement is a total a$$ thing to ever say or do.
Is your Dad Chris Hansen aka CHH?

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jbalm
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Re: Are we suppose to pay tithing on our "Surplus Property"

Post by jbalm »

Muerte Rosa wrote:What the heck is that supposed to mean? I didn't say i knew it was Bigfoot. I don't think he even knows that. But i believe he his story of what he said happened.
And after working with children in the system i have to say taking kids away from there parents for not having health insurance is not a good reason unless the children's health is being neglected in a serious way because of it. The effects of being in foster care are by far worse than going without health insurance.

I didn't say anything about health insurance. I agree that in the majority of cases, foster care is worse than biological parents...but not always.

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shadow
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Re: Are we suppose to pay tithing on our "Surplus Property"

Post by shadow »

Muerte Rosa wrote: And after working with children in the system i have to say taking kids away from there parents for not having health insurance is not a good reason unless the children's health is being neglected in a serious way because of it. The effects of being in foster care are by far worse than going without health insurance.
jbalm wrote:Hopefully, you won't ever have a kid who gets seriously ill or injured. Refusal to get them medical care because "you can't afford it" will end up in CPS placing the child with a more suitable parent...if the child survives.

I've seen it happen. And it's one of the few instances where I agreed with CPS.
You guys said the same thing. Look out muerte, Ezra gonna slap you upside your head.

freedomforall
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Re: Are we suppose to pay tithing on our "Surplus Property"

Post by freedomforall »

Here are some scripture truths so that philosophies of men cannot have root.

1. Understand scripture, Read..2 Peter 1:20
2. Believe what scripture says, Read..Mormon 9:8
3. Apply with wisdom that which was learned, Read..D&C 97:1
4. Do not be commanded in all things, Read..D&C 58:26
5. Pay tithes and DO NOT worry about where it goes. God wants a willing mind and heart in all things. When tithing is paid and someone steals it, the tithe payer is not to blame, he or she kept the commandment...that's all that matters...not where it goes. Read..Ether 12:36-38
6. Do not pay tithes with a hard heart. When a person gives reluctantly or with malice, it is the same as if the offering was never made, it means nothing. God accepts offerings from a person willing to do so cheerfully. Read..Moroni 7:8
7. God is not happy with a slothful servant, Read..Alma 37:41
8. Trust in the Lord, Read..Proverbs 3:5,6
9. Ask God for charity, Read..Moroni 10:21
10. Take up our cross, Read..Luke 9:23, D&C 56:2, 3 Nephi 12:30
11. Stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, Read..Mosiah 18:9

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Obrien
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Re: Are we suppose to pay tithing on our "Surplus Property"

Post by Obrien »

FFA - the scriptures you cite above are good. I like them. They may tangentially apply to tithing, but they apply to every other gospel topic as well. You and shadow do as you will, and I will too. I'm sure the Lord has a use for all of us. After all, there's plenty of needy in my area (as well as yours, I'm sure), and there is plenty of open land that is available for upper middle class retail shopping centers all over the world. Somebody has got to finance all that activity.

Ezra
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Re: Are we suppose to pay tithing on our "Surplus Property"

Post by Ezra »

Peace everyone i hope there are no hard feeling. Sorry for my in the moment ungodly post. Jbalm thanks for the little mini trials to strenthen my testimony.

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caddis
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Re: Are we suppose to pay tithing on our "Surplus Property"

Post by caddis »

shadow wrote:
Ezra wrote:
Your statement to me is a threat. And so help me god I would kill to protect my children from people like you and the state who don't know correct godly principles. And I also know that I would be justified in doing so.

God entrusted those children to those parents. If God trusts them who the hell are you to think you know better then God.

You have obliviously pushed my buttons. And I'm up in arms right now over it. If you were standing in front of me you wouldn't walk away from this conversation. And I would feel really bad about it after wards.

It's not smart to threaten people's children. Your messing with God when you do.


All I have to say is your statement is a total a$$ thing to ever say or do.
Is your Dad Chris Hansen aka CHH?

We will know for sure if he starts ranting about what a "real" dollar is.

freedomforall
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Re: Are we suppose to pay tithing on our "Surplus Property"

Post by freedomforall »

When someone hits a raw nerve

1. Why the ouch?
2. What's really happening?
3. The antidote to "ouch!"

But what can be said about those who "it appears" cause an "ouch" on purpose?

This picture can depict someone out to make things bad for others. It is truly a calling?
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freedomforall
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Re: Are we suppose to pay tithing on our "Surplus Property"

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Muerte Rosa wrote:I was kidding lol And i can honestly say one of my weaknesses is the desire to "cause ouch" i have a nasty vindictive streak. Not proud of that.
Maybe the picture actually depicts the White House. There is always something crumby coming down from it that can make some peoples blood boil.

And it is Satan's calling to make it happen!

braingrunt
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Re: Are we suppose to pay tithing on our "Surplus Property"

Post by braingrunt »

Every cent you get is something you didn't have before; and ANYTHING that cent buys is also something you didn't have before. so it's increase. Makes sense to me.

freedomforall
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Re: Are we suppose to pay tithing on our "Surplus Property"

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braingrunt wrote:Every cent you get is something you didn't have before; and ANYTHING that cent buys is also something you didn't have before. so it's increase. Makes sense to me.
Isn't one major problem because many people earning a peanut income try to live a champagne lifestyle and use this situation as an excuse for not paying a full tithe? And isn't another reason for paying less because some people's heart just isn't into paying what is due to the Lord, as if the Lord doesn't really require ten percent?
I know these to be true because I've been there, done that. I realized that a partial tithe just might provide a partial glory called the Telestial kingdom.

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Re: Are we suppose to pay tithing on our "Surplus Property"

Post by braingrunt »

freedomforall wrote:
braingrunt wrote:Every cent you get is something you didn't have before; and ANYTHING that cent buys is also something you didn't have before. so it's increase. Makes sense to me.
Isn't one major problem because many people earning a peanut income try to live a champagne lifestyle and use this situation as an excuse for not paying a full tithe? And isn't another reason for paying less because some people's heart just isn't into paying what is due to the Lord, as if the Lord doesn't really require ten percent?
I know these to be true because I've been there, done that. I realized that a partial tithe just might provide a partial glory called the Telestial kingdom.
I wonder which side of the debate you think im on. If it wasnt clear, there was no irony intended in my post, and i think all your money, no matter how its used, is increase, and therefore should be tithed according to the scriptures.
Some of the dissenting opinion sounds compassionate and reasonable, but i dont care for it because i think the scriptures tell me to tithe it anyway. I dont recall jesus chiding the widows mite, or saying she shouldnt have paid it

Ezra
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Re: Are we suppose to pay tithing on our "Surplus Property"

Post by Ezra »

Sound like freedom for all agrees with you. And I do too.

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Grudunza
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Re: Are we suppose to pay tithing on our "Surplus Property"

Post by Grudunza »

The scriptures tell us to tithe a tenth of our surplus, the increase over which we have need (see JST Genesis 14:39), as a standing law. We're also taught to be good stewards over our finances and our families and to pay our debtors what they're owed and not to become debtors ourselves. The scriptures are in harmony when paying on net after reasonable expenses and after paying our debtors, and that is the only method that is fair and uniform across the board for all incomes and situations, and does not put an extra burden upon the poor.

The widow's mite wasn't tithing. It was a charitable contribution, or offering. We are taught to pay the law of tithing to support the basic framework of the church, but we are also commanded repeatedly in scripture to pay generous offerings, and that therein lies the greater measure of our faith and charity. If you're concerned about "partial glory" or blessings, I would look at charitable contributions, and not worry about paying more than the expected amount of tithing.

I look at tithing as the dues you pay to help maintain the structure and pay off the incurred debts of the organization (which is what it's described as being for, in D&C 119). Are you blessed with a great physique merely for joining a gym and paying the membership dues? It may be a required part of the process to be able to go there, but the real blessing and "glory" of that is in the continual exercising and use of the gym equipment. Someone may pay 30% of their gross income on tithing, and pay it before everything else, but what really matters is how often and how well they show up and exercise (their faith and service).

freedomforall
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Re: Are we suppose to pay tithing on our "Surplus Property"

Post by freedomforall »

braingrunt wrote:
freedomforall wrote:
braingrunt wrote:Every cent you get is something you didn't have before; and ANYTHING that cent buys is also something you didn't have before. so it's increase. Makes sense to me.
Isn't one major problem because many people earning a peanut income try to live a champagne lifestyle and use this situation as an excuse for not paying a full tithe? And isn't another reason for paying less because some people's heart just isn't into paying what is due to the Lord, as if the Lord doesn't really require ten percent?
I know these to be true because I've been there, done that. I realized that a partial tithe just might provide a partial glory called the Telestial kingdom.
I wonder which side of the debate you think im on. If it wasnt clear, there was no irony intended in my post, and i think all your money, no matter how its used, is increase, and therefore should be tithed according to the scriptures.
Some of the dissenting opinion sounds compassionate and reasonable, but i dont care for it because i think the scriptures tell me to tithe it anyway. I dont recall jesus chiding the widows mite, or saying she shouldnt have paid it
Sorry. I shouldn't have put my thoughts in association with your post. Actually, I agree with you. Didn't mean to cause you to think otherwise.
Carry on! :ymhug:

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Re: Are we suppose to pay tithing on our "Surplus Property"

Post by oklds »

Grudunza wrote: January 5th, 2015, 10:59 pm The scriptures tell us to tithe a tenth of our surplus, the increase over which we have need (see JST Genesis 14:39), as a standing law. We're also taught to be good stewards over our finances and our families and to pay our debtors what they're owed and not to become debtors ourselves. The scriptures are in harmony when paying on net after reasonable expenses and after paying our debtors, and that is the only method that is fair and uniform across the board for all incomes and situations, and does not put an extra burden upon the poor.

The widow's mite wasn't tithing. It was a charitable contribution, or offering. We are taught to pay the law of tithing to support the basic framework of the church, but we are also commanded repeatedly in scripture to pay generous offerings, and that therein lies the greater measure of our faith and charity. If you're concerned about "partial glory" or blessings, I would look at charitable contributions, and not worry about paying more than the expected amount of tithing.

I look at tithing as the dues you pay to help maintain the structure and pay off the incurred debts of the organization (which is what it's described as being for, in D&C 119). Are you blessed with a great physique merely for joining a gym and paying the membership dues? It may be a required part of the process to be able to go there, but the real blessing and "glory" of that is in the continual exercising and use of the gym equipment. Someone may pay 30% of their gross income on tithing, and pay it before everything else, but what really matters is how often and how well they show up and exercise (their faith and service).
Yep. The one and only gift Almighty God actually gave me was time; I can always get more money. If I tithe my time, I am actually giving God something which actually costs me something, and is actually worth something to him. The weird thing is, when I tithe my time, I actually end up with more of it than I would have had if I had not done so. Besides, is anyone really stupid enough to believe that God needs your money?

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