Are we suppose to pay tithing on our "Surplus Property" to?

[andreas.nilsson]

I´ve leared about "Interest" being "Surplus" in D&C 119. But i completely overlooked the verse before that, about the "Surplus Property"

1. Verily, thus saith the Lord, I require all their surplus property to be put into the hands of the bishop of my church in Zion,
2 For the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church.
3 And this shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people.
4 And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.

- D&C 119

So, is this still in force?

/DZStudios

[jbalm]

No. it's been changed several times.

[janderich]

Clearly not. This law of tithing harkens back to the law of consecration. Under the law of consecration a person would give all his property to the bishop. A portion would then be deeded back to the individual as his stewardship. However, under the lesser law the person was asked to give only their surplus property to the bishop. This would be the beginning of the law of tithing. A person would then give a tenth of his increase to the church (not all of his increase as the law of consecration required).

The law of tithing as outlined in this section appears to have never taken hold and ultimately changed to what it is today. Instead of giving all our surplus property upon joining the church we give nothing. And instead of giving only a tenth of our increase we pay a tenth of all we earn. Sometimes I wonder if we would be closer to living the law of consecration if we implemented the law of tithing as given in section 119. Who knows? It appears we have what we have and I am happy to pay 10% of all my earnings.

[Thinker]

A few points about tithing:

1. Tithing is supposed to be based in increase, not income.
Ie: 2 Men make same income...
1 man is the sole provider of a family of 9, & after paying basics to survive, has no increase left.
The 2nd man lives with parents who pay all bills, and all of his income is increase.
If they both were to be charged the same amount in tithing, it would be unjust and exasperating poverty.

2. We are to be wise stewards of our resources. Share tithes as God wants, not as corrupt organizations want. Deut: 14:28-29 states that after gathering tithes, leaders are to share 1/3 of tithes with the poor. Oaks admitted they do not do that. Also, they hide that scripture from lds corriculum (it's not even in paper lds bible indexes/dictionaries under "tithing.").

3. Since when is US dollars (or other country currency) most important to God? Often volunteering or simply loving as the opportunity arises, is more valuable than any price.

[Obrien]

LIAHONA CHILDRENS FOUNDATION.

it will do some good there.

they've been helping children longer than city creek center has been open for business.

[gtoda]

Janderich, do you have a scriptural or prophetic basis for that interpretation or is that your own?

[jbalm]

5 Verily I say unto you, it shall come to pass that all those who gather unto the land of Zion shall be tithed of their surplus properties, and shall observe this law, or they shall not be found worthy to abide among you.

6 And I say unto you, if my people observe not this law, to keep it holy, and by this law sanctify the land of Zion unto me, that my statutes and my judgments may be kept thereon, that it may be most holy, behold, verily I say unto you, it shall not be a land of Zion unto you.

7 And this shall be an ensample unto all the stakes of Zion. Even so. Amen.

I guess you're exempt if you don't move to Utah (or Nauvoo, or Missouri, or whichever place happens to be the "land of Zion" at that particular moment).

[Cookies]

A few points about tithing:

1. Tithing is supposed to be based in increase, not income.
Ie: 2 Men make same income...
1 man is the sole provider of a family of 9, & after paying basics to survive, has no increase left.
The 2nd man lives with parents who pay all bills, and all of his income is increase.
If they both were to be charged the same amount in tithing, it would be unjust and exasperating poverty.

2. We are to be wise stewards of our resources. Share tithes as God wants, not as corrupt organizations want. Deut: 14:28-29 states that after gathering tithes, leaders are to share 1/3 of tithes with the poor. Oaks admitted they do not do that. Also, they hide that scripture from lds corriculum (it's not even in paper lds bible indexes/dictionaries under "tithing.").

3. Since when is US dollars (or other country currency) most important to God? Often volunteering or simply loving as the opportunity arises, is more valuable than any price.

What about net income? Isn't it the same thing?- (Total revenue - total expenses.)

"Net income is calculated by taking revenues and adjusting for the cost of doing business, depreciation, interest, taxes and other expenses."

The dollar amount labeled "net income" on your pay check is what is left after just taxes are taken out.
Don't forget to subtract all of your other expenses!

[Ezra]

.

[jbalm]

It really depends on the reason the debt was incurred.

[Cookies]

I have met many many lds family's that have really fancy houses cars boats toys and live pay check to pay Check. To them if they payed tithing after expenses would pay almost nothing.

..And that's o.k. (IMO)
Eventually those families are going to receive either a desire to simplify, or a desire to make more money-so that they can supply for the wants of others.

When people develop that kind of charity they will happily make the necessary changes so that they will be able to pay a generous fast offering, as well as a decent tithing.

[Ezra]

.

[Ezra]

.

[Cookies]

I have met many many lds family's that have really fancy houses cars boats toys and live pay check to pay Check. To them if they payed tithing after expenses would pay almost nothing.

..And that's o.k. (IMO)
Eventually those families are going to receive either a desire to simplify, or a desire to make more money-so that they can supply for the wants of others.

When people develop that kind of charity they will happily make the necessary changes so that they will be able to pay a generous fast offering, as well as a decent tithing.

Is that ok to you because that's what you do?
That would make justifying yours and other actions much easier.

You're right. Somebody might be able to justify paying a scant tithing using this logic, but they would not be able to justify their frivolous spending. In my opinion, the frivolous spender would have already "slapped God in the face" by putting their "stuff" before him. They might pay tithing correctly but only as an afterthought. Unfortunately for them, our intentions are what God looks for. Their tithe would probably mean nothing to him. Kind of like Cains offering.

On the flip side- if you are paying tithing incorrectly, but you are doing so with good intentions and effort...You're gonna be alright. That's my best guess anyway, but I hardly ever know what I'm talking about. :p

[jbalm]

It really depends on the reason the debt was incurred.

So what is godly debt vs. Worldly debt.?

You want a list?

People can decide that for themselves.

Besides, you set up a false dichotomy. Perhaps you mean "what is necessary debt and what is frivolous debt?"

[buffalo_girl]

I thought we were supposed to do everything possible to 'get out of debt' other than for a modest home and for furthering one's education.

I'm curious how this National Health Care dealio is going to play out with those who do NOT want to participate in the extortion. You either get coverage or you pay 2% of your income or $325 (not sure) whichever is greater to the IRS.

I wonder if paying tithing and claiming it as a deduction will help or at some point bring the iron fist down upon those who are.

[jbalm]

Correct.

That isn't always how it works out, unfortunately.

[Obrien]

if you want an idea of what LDS Corp views as expenses, read Rick waterman's blog post "the bare necessities" at puremormonism.

it's about expenses that the church feels justified in compensating mission presidents for without them incurring a tithe obligation. pretty interesting.

[redj]

Iv read that blogpost too and enjoyed it. I believe tithing is supposed to be on interest(surplus) not gross. Does anyone know when it was changed? Jblam looking at you.

[jbalm]

August, 1844. Right after JS died, and 5 months before the Q12 voted to exempt themselves from it

[Obrien]

Rock Waterman? Hahaha i think I'd rather go consult with my bean bag chair.

Rest up first so the bean bag chair doesn't win the argument.

[Obrien]

Iv read that blogpost too and enjoyed it. I believe tithing is supposed to be on interest(surplus) not gross. Does anyone know when it was changed? Jblam looking at you.

Daymon Smith was interviewed for Mormon Stories Podcast (episodes 149 - 153 +/-) One of the interviews discuses a fair amount about tithing. I think episode 152. All 4 are well worth a listen.

[Obrien]

Iv read that blogpost too and enjoyed it. I believe tithing is supposed to be on interest(surplus) not gross. Does anyone know when it was changed? Jblam looking at you.

Daymon Smith was interviewed for Mormon Stories Podcast (episodes 149 - 153 +/-) One of the interviews discuses a fair amount about tithing. I think episode 152. All 4 are well worth a listen.

[jbalm]

Obrien: Posts so nice, he posts them twice.

[Obrien]

it's an endemic hazard of your right hand not knowing what your left hand is up to.

thanks for the word-a-day toilet paper jbalm.