Are we suppose to pay tithing on our "Surplus Property" to?

[Ezra]

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[freedomforall]

An increase is an increase. I would really hope we don't treat the Lord like we do the federal government, otherwise if we did we would be in huge trouble!

Doesn't the Lord refer it as seeking after riches?
also, when a person is unemployed, earning no money whatsoever...there is no increase.
Once a person gets a job...that is his increase, the whole amount. We are only required to pay one dollar out of ten back to the Lord.
Just because a person making $20.00 an hour and owing $17.00 on bills, doesn't make the three left over as increase and only .30 going to tithes, does it? Doesn't God call this method "robbing him"?[/quote]

no

Let's see what scripture has to say about this kind of reply, shall we?

All things come from God.

1 Chr. 29:14
14 But who am I, and what is my people, that we should be able to offer so willingly after this sort? for all things come of thee, and of thine own have we given thee.

We rob God by withholding the substance owed back to him.
Malachi 3:8,9
8 ¶Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.

Some people refer to calling paying a honest tithe as "fire insurance".

Doctrine and Covenants 64:23
23 Behold, now it is called today until the coming of the Son of Man, and verily it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming.

But, hey, isn't it God telling us what will happen when we don't, or even holding back and robbing him His due?

[Ezra]

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[freedomforall]

I have wondered how to pay tithing in eggs and fruit and veggies. As I will soon have lots of that but very very little production of money. I'm trying to untie myself from the worldly system almost completely.

10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

Why would a bishop turn away food and staples going to a storehouse or to someone in need through a bishop?

Also, pray that God will consecrate your actions for your good and the welfare of your soul.

2 Nephi 32:9
9 But behold, I say unto you that ye must pray always, and not faint; that ye must not perform any thing unto the Lord save in the first place ye shall pray unto the Father in the name of Christ, that he will consecrate thy performance unto thee, that thy performance may be for the welfare of thy soul.


Why wouldn't this work with the paying of tithes as well?

[Obrien]

Ezra - the church used to accept the bulk of tithing in eggs and milk and hay etc. Lorenzo snow monetized tithing - he got bonds to consolidate the 1890s church debt, and oddly enough, bankers didn't want to be paid in eggs.

ffa, he MAY have a bishop who can and will accept His offering, but likely Ezra will be told to sell it and donate the cash. cash makes life easier, but paying tithing isn't necessarily supposed to be easy.

also for ffa, read about Abraham paying tithes to melchizedek in genesis 14 JST. that might give you a different slant on what's appropriately tithed.

remember, you can buy anything you want in this world with money.

[Ezra]

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[shadow]

tithing isn't necessarily supposed to be easy.

Great point. It might not be easy for someone to sell their produce, then pay tithing with money. But it's doable.

[Obrien]

aahhhh, the philosophies of men mingled with scripture.

[freedomforall]

Ezra - the church used to accept the bulk of tithing in eggs and milk and hay etc. Lorenzo snow monetized tithing - he got bonds to consolidate the 1890s church debt, and oddly enough, bankers didn't want to be paid in eggs.

ffa, he MAY have a bishop who can and will accept His offering, but likely Ezra will be told to sell it and donate the cash. cash makes life easier, but paying tithing isn't necessarily supposed to be easy.

also for ffa, read about Abraham paying tithes to melchizedek in genesis 14 JST. that might give you a different slant on what's appropriately tithed.

remember, you can buy anything you want in this world with money.

Thanks for the info. There is always room for increased knowledge.

Okay, here it is.

Alma 13:15
15 And it was this same Melchizedek to whom Abraham paid tithes; yea, even our father Abraham paid tithes of one-tenth part of all he possessed.

Abraham possessed goods due to God delivering an enemy into his hands, whereby all goods became Abraham's, at the hand of God.

From verse 20:
20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine (Abraham's) enemies into thy hand. And he (Abraham) gave him tithes of all. JST gives a better explanation but says the same thing. Abrahm gave tithes from all that God gave him, which confirms that we must pay back to the Lord, a tithe, in thanksgiving, fore God owns it all anyway.

JST Gen. 14:25–40 (Appendix)

25 And Melchizedek lifted up his voice and blessed Abram.
26 Now Melchizedek was a man of faith, who wrought righteousness; and when a child he feared God, and stopped the mouths of lions, and quenched the violence of fire.
27 And thus, having been approved of God, he was ordained an high priest after the order of the covenant which God made with Enoch,
28 It being after the order of the Son of God; which order came, not by man, nor the will of man; neither by father nor mother; neither by beginning of days nor end of years; but of God;
29 And it was delivered unto men by the calling of his own voice, according to his own will, unto as many as believed on his name.
30 For God having sworn unto Enoch and unto his seed with an oath by himself; that every one being ordained after this order and calling should have power, by faith, to break mountains, to divide the seas, to dry up waters, to turn them out of their course;
31 To put at defiance the armies of nations, to divide the earth, to break every band, to stand in the presence of God; to do all things according to his will, according to his command, subdue principalities and powers; and this by the will of the Son of God which was from before the foundation of the world.
32 And men having this faith, coming up unto this order of God, were translated and taken up into heaven.
33 And now, Melchizedek was a priest of this order; therefore he obtained peace in Salem, and was called the Prince of peace.
34 And his people wrought righteousness, and obtained heaven, and sought for the city of Enoch which God had before taken, separating it from the earth, having reserved it unto the latter days, or the end of the world;
35 And hath said, and sworn with an oath, that the heavens and the earth should come together; and the sons of God should be tried so as by fire.
36 And this Melchizedek, having thus established righteousness, was called the king of heaven by his people, or, in other words, the King of peace.
37 And he lifted up his voice, and he blessed Abram, being the high priest, and the keeper of the storehouse of God;
38 Him whom God had appointed to receive tithes for the poor.
39 Wherefore, Abram paid unto him tithes of all that he had, of all the riches which he possessed, which God had given him more than that which he had need.
40 And it came to pass, that God blessed Abram, and gave unto him riches, and honor, and lands for an everlasting possession; according to the covenant which he had made, and according to the blessing wherewith Melchizedek had blessed him.

[Obrien]

Can't buy spiritual blessing and exaltation.

Ya I have asked previous bishops about eggs and food. He said nope. Check only. Couldn't even pay in cash. I did anyways. Cash that is.

But soon I won't have cash. So they are going to get eggs and food if they like it or not.

Ezra - you might also consider asking the Lord who needs your goods, and donating them directly as you're inspired. perhaps you'll be inspired to sell and donate the $$, perhaps not. tithing as a mechanism to fulfill people's needs locally is a beautiful concept.

I like your perspective, independence and motivation.

[jbalm]

You want a list?

People can decide that for themselves.

Besides, you set up a false dichotomy. Perhaps you mean "what is necessary debt and what is frivolous debt?"

There is no necessary debt.

People selfishly want a house right now. People selfishly want higher worldly education right now. So they go into debt.

Neither are necessary. If it was I would be in debt.

If you can't afford it. You can't afford it.

I have no debt. No higher education other then that which I have gotten from God.
I have a house that God bought me. I have land that God bought me. I have money in the bank that God provided for me. He has done this because I have not gone into debt and have lived within my means.
I could be like the other 90% as a guess of mormons. Who have not lived within there means. And I'm glad im not.

My wife and I lived in a nice tent for our first 4 years of marrage. Where we saved money and payed cash for a house on 20 acres. Which I was lead to by the lord. We fixed it up with cash and sold it. Only because we were lead to by the lord. We now own 125 acres farm that we payed cash for. I have not worked for 2 years other then on my own land. Money is still comming in from projects and little side jobs that the lord has given me. I don't look at these things as work cuz they are too much fun.
I live a blessed life. Because I lisened to the lord and didn't go into debt or seek worldly things.

No debt is necessary.

So that's why I asked the question the way I did.
There is no money worldly debt that is godly.

Do you accept benefits of debt? Do you take your kids to doctors who went into debt to get their education? Do you take them to hospitals, that were built using debt. Were they born in your tent?

If one of your family had a medical issue that you couldn't pay cash for, would you forgo treatment, just so you could stay out of debt?

Do you work? Does your job require someone, somewhere to go into debt?

And since all money in the US is derived from debt, if there is no Godly debt, then there is no Godly money. That being the case, the church leaders should eschew money altogether. But they won't. It's what they desire the most.

It is good to avoid debt to the extent possible, but to hold youself up as superior to those who incur debt is absurd. In all probability, your ability to stay out of debt comes on the backs of those who did... those you look down upon. And to an extent, your ability to stay out of debt can be attributed to dumb luck.

[Obrien]

jbalm - you recycling posts now?

[freedomforall]

Can't buy spiritual blessing and exaltation.

Ya I have asked previous bishops about eggs and food. He said nope. Check only. Couldn't even pay in cash. I did anyways. Cash that is.

But soon I won't have cash. So they are going to get eggs and food if they like it or not.

Ezra - you might also consider asking the Lord who needs your goods, and donating them directly as you're inspired. perhaps you'll be inspired to sell and donate the $$, perhaps not. tithing as a mechanism to fulfill people's needs locally is a beautiful concept.

I like your perspective, independence and motivation.

I reiterate 2 Nephi 32:9

[jbalm]

jbalm - you recycling posts now?

Why? Did I say that somewhere else?

Edit: Never mind. I know what you're talking about. I hit "submit" too soon the first time.

[Obrien]

you noticed my double post earlier, thought I'd return the favor.

As far as debt goes, that is a sticky wicket. I suppose some debt is ok. As a society, we are too dependent on debt, IMHO. It's nice to be debt free, I'll say that much.

[jbalm]

I agree.

[Ezra]

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[shadow]

Ezra - you might also consider asking the Lord who needs your goods, and donating them directly as you're inspired. perhaps you'll be inspired to sell and donate the $$, perhaps not. tithing as a mechanism to fulfill people's needs locally is a beautiful concept.

aahhhh, the philosophies of men mingled with scripture.

[jbalm]

No debt is necessary.

So that's why I asked the question the way I did.
There is no money worldly debt that is godly.

Do you accept benefits of debt? Do you take your kids to doctors who went into debt to get their education? Do you take them to hospitals, that were built using debt. Were they born in your tent?

If one of your family had a medical issue that you couldn't pay cash for, would you forgo treatment, just so you could stay out of debt?

Do you work? Does your job require someone, somewhere to go into debt?

And since all money in the US is derived from debt, if there is no Godly debt, then there is no Godly money. That being the case, the church leaders should eschew money altogether. But they won't. It's what they desire the most.

It is good to avoid debt to the extent possible, but to hold youself up as superior to those who incur debt is absurd. In all probability, your ability to stay out of debt comes on the backs of those who did... those you look down upon. And to an extent, your ability to stay out of debt can be attributed to dumb luck.

It's funny people try to use this argument with me.
Did the doctor need to go into debt to pay for his edu. Nope did the hospital need to go into debt to be built nope.

Do I use either nope. I use the word of wisdom for my health.
My good freind who was my example has had all but one child at home. He told me his last cost him 59$ in supply's.

I trust the lord to heal me as was promised in the wow. If I am not able to heal myself using the wow. I will willingly go back into my savioors arms.

I have no control over if other places or people go into debt. Nor do I look down on them. I was just testifying of my esperiance of following a simple directions from the lord in my life.
If others don't lisen that's ok. I also understand the blessings of trials that the lord gives us to help our growth. Why would anyone look down on those who are going through trials and growth?

I try to treat everyone as equals without judgment on my part. When I discover a held judement that I have I try to abandon it as quickly as I can.

So I dont ask if people are in debt in order to do business with them.
As far as the U.S. debt. When we were on a gold standard money was not created by debt. And as the scriptures say D&c 98 that anything more or less then this. The constitution cometh evil. Which is what happened when we went away from the constitution and gold standard.

You asked if I would go into debt to pay for treatment. No. I trust my lord. if he blesses me or other loved ones with sickness that is not curable by the prisethood or the wow. He wants them back in his arms and I'm willing to let him have them.

You called people who incur debt "selfish." That sounds a lot like judgement on your part.

And, as an aside, have you ever looked into the cost of medical school? Are you in favor of only rich people getting advanced degrees?

[Obrien]

Ezra - you might also consider asking the Lord who needs your goods, and donating them directly as you're inspired. perhaps you'll be inspired to sell and donate the $$, perhaps not. tithing as a mechanism to fulfill people's needs locally is a beautiful concept.

aahhhh, the philosophies of men mingled with scripture.

so for shadow, seeking inspiration is a philosophy of obrien?

[Ezra]

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[jbalm]

Hopefully, you won't ever have a kid who gets seriously ill or injured. Refusal to get them medical care because "you can't afford it" will end up in CPS placing the child with a more suitable parent...if the child survives.

I've seen it happen. And it's one of the few instances where I agreed with CPS.

[shadow]

Ezra - you might also consider asking the Lord who needs your goods, and donating them directly as you're inspired. perhaps you'll be inspired to sell and donate the $$, perhaps not. tithing as a mechanism to fulfill people's needs locally is a beautiful concept.

aahhhh, the philosophies of men mingled with scripture.

so for shadow, seeking inspiration is a philosophy of obrien?

Deciding that tithing is simply a charity, that's your philosophy mingled with scripture. Tithing is given to the storehouse. Those with the storehouse steward take it from there. That's scripture. You've mingled it into donating money to whatever cause feels good. Charity is one thing. Tithing is something different.

[Obrien]

what if the Lord told you to tithe directly to people, not the mall store house?

[Ezra]

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