Church Essays on Polygamy

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Robin Hood
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Re: Church Essays on Polygamy

Post by Robin Hood »

simpleton wrote:"They accuse me of polygamy, and of being a false Prophet,
and many other things which I do not now remember; but I am
no false Prophet; I am no impostor; I have had no dark revelations;
I have had no revelations from the devil; I made no revelations; I
have got nothing up myself. The same God that has thus far
dictated, me and directed me and strengthened me in this work, gave
me this revelation- and commandment on celestial and plural mar-
riage, and the same God commanded me to obey it. He said to
me that unless I accepted it and introduced it, and practiced it, I,
together with my people, would be damned and cut off from this
time henceforth. And they say if I do so, they will kill me. 0, what
shall I do? If I do not practice it I shall be damned with my people.
If I do teach it, and practice it, and, urge it, they say they will kill
me, and I know they will. But," said he, "i have got to observe
it. It is an eternal principle, and was given by way of command-
ment and not by way of instruction."

Joseph Smith ... Fate of the Persecutors... NB Lundwall
Original source?

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Robin Hood
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Posts: 13112
Location: England

Re: Church Essays on Polygamy

Post by Robin Hood »

simpleton wrote:"They accuse me of polygamy, and of being a false Prophet,
and many other things which I do not now remember; but I am
no false Prophet; I am no impostor; I have had no dark revelations;
I have had no revelations from the devil; I made no revelations; I
have got nothing up myself. The same God that has thus far
dictated, me and directed me and strengthened me in this work, gave
me this revelation- and commandment on celestial and plural mar-
riage, and the same God commanded me to obey it. He said to
me that unless I accepted it and introduced it, and practiced it, I,
together with my people, would be damned and cut off from this
time henceforth. And they say if I do so, they will kill me. 0, what
shall I do? If I do not practice it I shall be damned with my people.
If I do teach it, and practice it, and, urge it, they say they will kill
me, and I know they will. But," said he, "i have got to observe
it. It is an eternal principle, and was given by way of command-
ment and not by way of instruction."

Joseph Smith ... Fate of the Persecutors... NB Lundwall

How about this one, from a contemporary source published by the church to this very day.

"I had not been married scarcely five minutes, and made one proclamation of the Gospel, before it was reported that I had seven wives. I mean to live and proclaim the truth as long as I can.
This new holy prophet (William Law) has gone to Carthage and swore that I told him that I was guilty of adultery. This spritual wifeism! Why, a man dares not speak or wink, for fear of being accused of this. ..... William Law...... swears that I have committed adultery. I wish the grand jury would tell me who they are - whether it will be a curse or a blessing to me......
A man asked me whether the commandment was given that a man may have seven wives; and now the new prophet has charged me with adultery...... Wilson Law also swears that I told him I was guilty of adultery....... I have rattled chains before in a dungeon for truth's sake. I am innocent of all these charges, and you can bear witness of my innocence, for you know me yourselves...... What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one.
I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and can prove them all perjurers."

26th May 1844. At least 3,000 Saints present,
History of the Church 6:410 - 411

simpleton
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Re: Church Essays on Polygamy

Post by simpleton »

The bottom of the above post shows the source ....
But everyone has there God given agency to believe whatever they want... And what I have observed is that if we dislike or despise a principle whether it be true or false, we look for evidence or even supposed evidence that concurs with our mindset. And we are willing to take and use questionable evidence if it goes along with our way of thinking. I like you Robin Hood because you take from the rich and give to the poor, which goes along with the scripture "the poor and the meek shall inherit the earth".... now i totally respect your right to believe what you want, but, i must respectfully disagree. I have studied the famous/infamous mostly hated principle of polygamy and it most definitely has been the most contested principle of the day.... But the conclusion i have come to after reading and studying it is that Joseph Smith most definitely received that revelation not Brigham Young there is just way to much evidence that overwhelms the opposite.... But after it's all said and done and read and studied what good is a human conclusion ultimately, "if any man lacketh wisdom let him ask of God" ..... In other words just because we abhor a principle does not make it false .... i think this applys:
There has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger [a piece of corn bread] for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle [a wooden mallet]. Even the Saints are slow to understand.

“I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the Saints prepared to receive the things of God; but we frequently see some of them, after suffering all they have for the work of God, will fly to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions: they cannot stand the fire at all. How many will be able to abide a celestial law, and go through and receive their exaltation, I am unable to say, as many are called, but few are chosen...JS
Oh so very true , and the same applys today to our generation...
There is no question that there is a contradiction in his history as i have read and studied it myself and have most definitely wondered who what why when etc...
But i would say this, only God can give us the answers to his correct principles.. So all who are truly interested in finding out the mind of God in regards to these matters must find out from Him...
I could post many early day testimonials of that principal and for that matter i have even heard with mine own ears a few modern ones some LDS women that have found out for themselves as they were very upset with the 132 of dc but what good is hanging onto the coat sleeves of others....
And to charge either Joseph Smith and or Brigham Young with crimes of passion, i think is treading on dangerous grounds as they were both the Lords anointed and I do not believe either fell away...
I propose this... how about that the 132nd section is true and that society or better yet the great whore of all the earth and her harlot daughters hates it and ultimately succeeded in stamping it out... Just a thought..
Again... the overwhelming testimonials, experiences, and numbers of women and men that have received divine light specifically in regards to celestial/plural marriage far surpasses any light or testimony in opposition... infact it is so lopsided there is no contest... Speaking of claimed light anyways.....
But again each his or her own..
As each person must stand on their own two feet and try and live by the light within themselves...

simpleton
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Re: Church Essays on Polygamy

Post by simpleton »

Here is another thought .... if polygamy is truly a principle from hell and is adultery, then all children produced from those unions according to scripture (if it is truly adultery) are bastards ....and the good book says that a bastard cannot come into the congregation of the Lord for 10 generations... And to continue along that line of thinking how many bastards are in the church today...and for that matter have been in the hierarchy?.........

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Rachael
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Re: Church Essays on Polygamy

Post by Rachael »

simpleton wrote: ...I propose this... how about that the 132nd section is true and that society or better yet the great whore of all the earth and her harlot daughters hates it and ultimately succeeded in stamping it out... Just a thought..
Again... the overwhelming testimonials, experiences, and numbers of women and men that have received divine light specifically in regards to celestial/plural marriage far surpasses any light or testimony in opposition... infact it is so lopsided there is no contest... Speaking of claimed light anyways.....
But again each his or her own..
As each person must stand on their own two feet and try and live by the light within themselves...
Robinhood quoted what JS said in May 1844 about polygamy. He lived ~1month after that. Harlots hate polygamy, but virtuous women see the divine light of it? Surely you're not serious?
132 wasn't put in the D&C until 1876. 32 years after JS was murdered. The whore's harlot-daughters didn't stop polygamy, it was the Edmonds Tucker Act of the US government.

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Melissa
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Re: Church Essays on Polygamy

Post by Melissa »

I wonder why so many defend polygamy? Do you think you won't get to heaven if you don't have more than one wife? We are given the needed ordinances right now in our temple to receive exaltation if we but keep our covenants. Why do so many feel the need to defend polygamy so much? If it's salvation we want, then you can have it with your wife now, unless of course you don't believe the policy today.

simpleton
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Re: Church Essays on Polygamy

Post by simpleton »

The great whore meaning the vatican/catholicism ....and her harlot daughters meaning all other breakoffs from her which according to the oldtimers was pretty much all protestant and christian churches

Fiannan
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Re: Church Essays on Polygamy

Post by Fiannan »

Melissa wrote:I wonder why so many defend polygamy? Do you think you won't get to heaven if you don't have more than one wife? We are given the needed ordinances right now in our temple to receive exaltation if we but keep our covenants. Why do so many feel the need to defend polygamy so much? If it's salvation we want, then you can have it with your wife now, unless of course you don't believe the policy today.
Maybe it is an issue of individual liberty, or cultural survival as so many young women today have absolutely no chance of ever finding a worthy man that wants to settle down and raise a family?

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Rachael
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Re: Church Essays on Polygamy

Post by Rachael »

Maybe men want to have a license from God to whore around.

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Rachael
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Re: Church Essays on Polygamy

Post by Rachael »

Melissa wrote:I wonder why so many defend polygamy? Do you think you won't get to heaven if you don't have more than one wife? We are given the needed ordinances right now in our temple to receive exaltation if we but keep our covenants. Why do so many feel the need to defend polygamy so much? If it's salvation we want, then you can have it with your wife now, unless of course you don't believe the policy today.
It is nonsensical. Women who saved their virtue for one man and wanted to be extended the same couteousy, are the whores. The ones who got talked into polygamous relationships "got around" a bit more as far as sexual experiences go. But they are the virtuous ones? Or maybe they're victims that had some kind of Helsinki/Stockholm syndrome.

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Melissa
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Re: Church Essays on Polygamy

Post by Melissa »

Rachael wrote:
Melissa wrote:I wonder why so many defend polygamy? Do you think you won't get to heaven if you don't have more than one wife? We are given the needed ordinances right now in our temple to receive exaltation if we but keep our covenants. Why do so many feel the need to defend polygamy so much? If it's salvation we want, then you can have it with your wife now, unless of course you don't believe the policy today.
It is nonsensical. Women who saved their virtue for one man and wanted to be extended the same couteousy, are the whores. The ones who got talked into polygamous relationships "got around" a bit more as far as sexual experiences go. But they are the virtuous ones. Or maybe the victims that had some kind of Helsinki/Stockholm syndrome.
What also makes no sense is why men are expected to be true to their one wife and not look upon other women or porn or adultry etc and women often spend their marriages trying to help them not do those things just to be given them in the end. Why? Why should I want him to be true to me and why does God if he will just allow it in the end? This to me is a slap in the face of every single wife of any man.

But then again, maybe that's why men in the church struggle so much with being true to their wife, they don't really believe they have to. There really is an entitlement with men in our church because of the early saints practicing polygamy. They actually have the option and opportunity to have many wives instilled in them. Then they (leaders) expect them to not want it or have weaknesses with being monogamous? Seems men have been set up to fail one way or the other. If I was a man, I wouldn't take kindly to the confusion.

And I agree, women and men have very different moral expectations. Men essentially have a freedom card women dont. Why? I believe it's because of the massive insecurity men have. It's often spoken that a woman needs to be pure but I will add that an impure man has no business messing with a pure vessel. Purity and purity is appropriate. But that's the view of expecting the same morality from men as women have expected on them and that has NEVER been the case, unfortunately.

And then women are told that they are the moral compass and need to set the boundaries etc etc. It's shameful that men cannot be relied upon to be a moral compass. Again, if I was a man I wouldn't take kindly to being looked so down on.

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Melissa
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Re: Church Essays on Polygamy

Post by Melissa »

Fiannan wrote:
Melissa wrote:I wonder why so many defend polygamy? Do you think you won't get to heaven if you don't have more than one wife? We are given the needed ordinances right now in our temple to receive exaltation if we but keep our covenants. Why do so many feel the need to defend polygamy so much? If it's salvation we want, then you can have it with your wife now, unless of course you don't believe the policy today.
Maybe it is an issue of individual liberty, or cultural survival as so many young women today have absolutely no chance of ever finding a worthy man that wants to settle down and raise a family?
Fiannan, your view is different than the religious salvation view members have. Your view has a clear purpose and if people wanted it for these reasons then it honestly would be fine with me. I'm talking about the issue of salvation in heaven, not temporal things. Oh, and the average Joe mormon doest think of the things you do. They think of God ordained wives....that's it. And my question is why?

Fiannan
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Re: Church Essays on Polygamy

Post by Fiannan »

Rachael wrote:Maybe men want to have a license from God to whore around.
'

So sex is the only reason for marriage?

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Robin Hood
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Re: Church Essays on Polygamy

Post by Robin Hood »

simpleton wrote:The bottom of the above post shows the source ....
I asked for the original source. It's provenance.
All you're doing is quoting someone who is quoting someone else.

I'm pleased you brought up D&C 132.
Are you aware of wordprint analysis? It was big news a few years ago when it was used to demonstrate that neither Joseph Smith, nor Oliver Cowdery, Sidney Rigdon, Solomon Spaulding etc were the author's of the Book of Mormon. In other words, it provided evidence to indicate that our claims regarding the source of the Book of Mormon were true.

Using the same approach, a wordprint analysis of D&C 132 indicates it is not the work of Joseph Smith. It also indicates (though cannot catagorically confirm due to sample size) that the most likely author is Brigham Young.
I posted the study here a few weeks ago but nobody seemed interested.

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Rachael
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Re: Church Essays on Polygamy

Post by Rachael »

Fiannan wrote:
Rachael wrote:Maybe men want to have a license from God to whore around.
'

So sex is the only reason for marriage?
Some RMs would say that, after they withheld desires for as long as they could stand it. Some have happily ever after endings, some dont

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Melissa
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Re: Church Essays on Polygamy

Post by Melissa »

Fiannan wrote:
Rachael wrote:Maybe men want to have a license from God to whore around.
'

So sex is the only reason for marriage?
Only? No. But it is the excitement that actually propels people to get married. If it wasn't then why do people from Utah go to Vegas for the weekend. Because marriage = license to have sex. It means it's a okay with God. So ya, to many many (nearly all) people, sex is a major aspect of marriage. I don't know anyone who got married without the excitement for sex and intimacy.

I honestly believe to young men, sex is the reason for marriage and they are too dumb to realize that marriage equals a mandatory change and sacrifice. It takes most men many years to accept they are married and have to change. Men marry based on lust. Ask any man, it's true 95 % of the time. Then they freak out when reality hits them, hence the reason many divorces happen so early in marriage. When lust ends, love needs to take over. And many struggle with this fact, men more than women.

If you think people don't have to change...think of this, you can't even bring a cat into your house and not change something about how you live.

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Robin Hood
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Re: Church Essays on Polygamy

Post by Robin Hood »

Melissa wrote:
Fiannan wrote:
Rachael wrote:Maybe men want to have a license from God to whore around.
'

So sex is the only reason for marriage?
Only? No. But it is the excitement that actually propels people to get married. If it wasn't then why do people from Utah go to Vegas for the weekend. Because marriage = license to have sex. It means it's a okay with God. So ya, to many many (nearly all) people, sex is a major aspect of marriage. I don't know anyone who got married without the excitement for sex and intimacy.

I honestly believe to young men, sex is the reason for marriage and they are too dumb to realize that marriage equals a mandatory change and sacrifice. It takes most men many years to accept they are married and have to change. Men marry based on lust. Ask any man, it's true 95 % of the time. Then they freak out when reality hits them, hence the reason many divorces happen so early in marriage. When lust ends, love needs to take over. And many struggle with this fact, men more than women.

If you think people don't have to change...think of this, you can't even bring a cat into your house and not change something about how you live.
It is true that when I married my wife 35 happy years ago, the issue of sex was in the forefront of my mind. I loved my wife and enjoyed spending time with her, but I'll admit the prospect of sex was a big pull.
I was once taught in church (I think it was a youth Sunday school class back in the '70's) that a man is by nature a seeker of adventure, and the reason the male sex drive is so strong is to persuade him to settle down and accept the responsibilities of fatherhood and family. This has always struck me as being true.
I used to worry that there was something wrong with me, that I was abnormal or some kind of fiend because I was so interested in sex. I believe this is a great burden for a man, and that on the whole women do not fully understand just how difficult and, frankly, terrifying it is.

In my experience the male sex drive lessens considerably as the years pass. If I was to marry today the sex issue would be quite a long way down the list of reasons to do it. Bearing this in mind, I do find it a little comforting (though only a little) that many church leaders in Utah took additional wives when they were quite advanced in age.

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Rachael
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Re: Church Essays on Polygamy

Post by Rachael »

simpleton wrote:The great whore meaning the vatican/catholicism ....and her harlot daughters meaning all other breakoffs from her which according to the oldtimers was pretty much all protestant and christian churches
Our early LDS leaders probably did more whoring in the Restoration from Nauvoo to UT than protestants have since Martin Luther's Reformation

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rewcox
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Re: Church Essays on Polygamy

Post by rewcox »

Robin Hood wrote:
simpleton wrote:"They accuse me of polygamy, and of being a false Prophet,
and many other things which I do not now remember; but I am
no false Prophet; I am no impostor; I have had no dark revelations;
I have had no revelations from the devil; I made no revelations; I
have got nothing up myself. The same God that has thus far
dictated, me and directed me and strengthened me in this work, gave
me this revelation- and commandment on celestial and plural mar-
riage, and the same God commanded me to obey it. He said to
me that unless I accepted it and introduced it, and practiced it, I,
together with my people, would be damned and cut off from this
time henceforth. And they say if I do so, they will kill me. 0, what
shall I do? If I do not practice it I shall be damned with my people.
If I do teach it, and practice it, and, urge it, they say they will kill
me, and I know they will. But," said he, "i have got to observe
it. It is an eternal principle, and was given by way of command-
ment and not by way of instruction."

Joseph Smith ... Fate of the Persecutors... NB Lundwall

How about this one, from a contemporary source published by the church to this very day.

"I had not been married scarcely five minutes, and made one proclamation of the Gospel, before it was reported that I had seven wives. I mean to live and proclaim the truth as long as I can.
This new holy prophet (William Law) has gone to Carthage and swore that I told him that I was guilty of adultery. This spritual wifeism! Why, a man dares not speak or wink, for fear of being accused of this. ..... William Law...... swears that I have committed adultery. I wish the grand jury would tell me who they are - whether it will be a curse or a blessing to me......
A man asked me whether the commandment was given that a man may have seven wives; and now the new prophet has charged me with adultery...... Wilson Law also swears that I told him I was guilty of adultery....... I have rattled chains before in a dungeon for truth's sake. I am innocent of all these charges, and you can bear witness of my innocence, for you know me yourselves...... What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one.
I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and can prove them all perjurers."

26th May 1844. At least 3,000 Saints present,
History of the Church 6:410 - 411
Who was Joseph Smith when he was first married? There was no church.

Explain to me why anyone would say, 5 minutes after he was married, that he had 7 wifes?

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Robin Hood
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Posts: 13112
Location: England

Re: Church Essays on Polygamy

Post by Robin Hood »

rewcox wrote:
Robin Hood wrote:
simpleton wrote:"They accuse me of polygamy, and of being a false Prophet,
and many other things which I do not now remember; but I am
no false Prophet; I am no impostor; I have had no dark revelations;
I have had no revelations from the devil; I made no revelations; I
have got nothing up myself. The same God that has thus far
dictated, me and directed me and strengthened me in this work, gave
me this revelation- and commandment on celestial and plural mar-
riage, and the same God commanded me to obey it. He said to
me that unless I accepted it and introduced it, and practiced it, I,
together with my people, would be damned and cut off from this
time henceforth. And they say if I do so, they will kill me. 0, what
shall I do? If I do not practice it I shall be damned with my people.
If I do teach it, and practice it, and, urge it, they say they will kill
me, and I know they will. But," said he, "i have got to observe
it. It is an eternal principle, and was given by way of command-
ment and not by way of instruction."

Joseph Smith ... Fate of the Persecutors... NB Lundwall

How about this one, from a contemporary source published by the church to this very day.

"I had not been married scarcely five minutes, and made one proclamation of the Gospel, before it was reported that I had seven wives. I mean to live and proclaim the truth as long as I can.
This new holy prophet (William Law) has gone to Carthage and swore that I told him that I was guilty of adultery. This spritual wifeism! Why, a man dares not speak or wink, for fear of being accused of this. ..... William Law...... swears that I have committed adultery. I wish the grand jury would tell me who they are - whether it will be a curse or a blessing to me......
A man asked me whether the commandment was given that a man may have seven wives; and now the new prophet has charged me with adultery...... Wilson Law also swears that I told him I was guilty of adultery....... I have rattled chains before in a dungeon for truth's sake. I am innocent of all these charges, and you can bear witness of my innocence, for you know me yourselves...... What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one.
I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and can prove them all perjurers."

26th May 1844. At least 3,000 Saints present,
History of the Church 6:410 - 411
Who was Joseph Smith when he was first married? There was no church.

Explain to me why anyone would say, 5 minutes after he was married, that he had 7 wifes?
Joseph speaks for himself.
That's the whole point. There are lot's of people claiming all sorts of things about Joseph's marital arrangements, but when he is allowed to speak for himself the truth becomes very clear.

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rewcox
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Posts: 5873

Re: Church Essays on Polygamy

Post by rewcox »

Robin Hood wrote:
rewcox wrote:
Robin Hood wrote:
simpleton wrote:"They accuse me of polygamy, and of being a false Prophet,
and many other things which I do not now remember; but I am
no false Prophet; I am no impostor; I have had no dark revelations;
I have had no revelations from the devil; I made no revelations; I
have got nothing up myself. The same God that has thus far
dictated, me and directed me and strengthened me in this work, gave
me this revelation- and commandment on celestial and plural mar-
riage, and the same God commanded me to obey it. He said to
me that unless I accepted it and introduced it, and practiced it, I,
together with my people, would be damned and cut off from this
time henceforth. And they say if I do so, they will kill me. 0, what
shall I do? If I do not practice it I shall be damned with my people.
If I do teach it, and practice it, and, urge it, they say they will kill
me, and I know they will. But," said he, "i have got to observe
it. It is an eternal principle, and was given by way of command-
ment and not by way of instruction."

Joseph Smith ... Fate of the Persecutors... NB Lundwall

How about this one, from a contemporary source published by the church to this very day.

"I had not been married scarcely five minutes, and made one proclamation of the Gospel, before it was reported that I had seven wives. I mean to live and proclaim the truth as long as I can.
This new holy prophet (William Law) has gone to Carthage and swore that I told him that I was guilty of adultery. This spritual wifeism! Why, a man dares not speak or wink, for fear of being accused of this. ..... William Law...... swears that I have committed adultery. I wish the grand jury would tell me who they are - whether it will be a curse or a blessing to me......
A man asked me whether the commandment was given that a man may have seven wives; and now the new prophet has charged me with adultery...... Wilson Law also swears that I told him I was guilty of adultery....... I have rattled chains before in a dungeon for truth's sake. I am innocent of all these charges, and you can bear witness of my innocence, for you know me yourselves...... What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one.
I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and can prove them all perjurers."

26th May 1844. At least 3,000 Saints present,
History of the Church 6:410 - 411
Who was Joseph Smith when he was first married? There was no church.

Explain to me why anyone would say, 5 minutes after he was married, that he had 7 wifes?
Joseph speaks for himself.
That's the whole point. There are lot's of people claiming all sorts of things about Joseph's marital arrangements, but when he is allowed to speak for himself the truth becomes very clear.
I was hoping for someone to have some data on why he would say something like that. It doesn't make sense.

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rewcox
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Posts: 5873

Re: Church Essays on Polygamy

Post by rewcox »

rewcox wrote:
Robin Hood wrote:
rewcox wrote:
Robin Hood wrote:

How about this one, from a contemporary source published by the church to this very day.

"I had not been married scarcely five minutes, and made one proclamation of the Gospel, before it was reported that I had seven wives. I mean to live and proclaim the truth as long as I can.
This new holy prophet (William Law) has gone to Carthage and swore that I told him that I was guilty of adultery. This spritual wifeism! Why, a man dares not speak or wink, for fear of being accused of this. ..... William Law...... swears that I have committed adultery. I wish the grand jury would tell me who they are - whether it will be a curse or a blessing to me......
A man asked me whether the commandment was given that a man may have seven wives; and now the new prophet has charged me with adultery...... Wilson Law also swears that I told him I was guilty of adultery....... I have rattled chains before in a dungeon for truth's sake. I am innocent of all these charges, and you can bear witness of my innocence, for you know me yourselves...... What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one.
I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and can prove them all perjurers."

26th May 1844. At least 3,000 Saints present,
History of the Church 6:410 - 411
Who was Joseph Smith when he was first married? There was no church.

Explain to me why anyone would say, 5 minutes after he was married, that he had 7 wifes?
Joseph speaks for himself.
That's the whole point. There are lot's of people claiming all sorts of things about Joseph's marital arrangements, but when he is allowed to speak for himself the truth becomes very clear.
I was hoping for someone to have some data on why he would say something like that. It doesn't make sense.
Rachel wrote:
Rachel, help me out, I'm not understanding the 5 minute comment.
While boarding at the Hale house in Harmony, Pennsylvania, Smith began courting Emma Hale. When Smith proposed marriage, Emma's father Isaac Hale objected because Smith was "a stranger" who had no means of supporting his daughter other than money digging, of which he disapproved.[25] Smith and Emma eloped and were married on January 18, 1827, after which the couple began boarding with Smith's parents in Manchester. Later that year, when Smith promised to abandon treasure seeking, Hale offered to let the couple live on his property in Harmony and help Smith get started in business.[26]

Smith said that he made his last annual visit to the hill on September 22, 1827, taking Emma with him.[27] This time, he said he retrieved the plates and put them in a locked chest. He said the angel commanded him not to show the plates to anyone else but to publish their translation, reputed to be the religious record of indigenous Americans.[28] Smith said that the plates were engraved in an unknown language, reformed Egyptian, and he told associates that he was capable of reading and translating them.[29] Although Smith had left his treasure hunting company, his former associates believed he had double-crossed them by taking for himself what they considered joint property.[30] After they ransacked places where a competing treasure-seer said the plates were hidden, Smith decided to leave Palmyra.[31]

Founding a church (1827–30) Edit
Main article: Life of Joseph Smith from 1827 to 1830
In October 1827, Smith and his pregnant wife moved from Palmyra to Harmony (now Oakland), Pennsylvania, aided by money from a relatively prosperous neighbor, Martin Harris.[32] Living near his in-laws, Smith transcribed some characters that he said were engraved on the plates, and then dictated a translation to his wife.[33]

In February 1828, Martin Harris arrived to assist Smith by transcribing his dictation. Harris also took a sample of the characters to a few prominent scholars, including Charles Anthon, who Harris said initially authenticated the characters and their translation but then retracted his opinion after learning that Smith was supposed to have received the plates from an angel.[34] Anthon denied Harris's account of the meeting, claiming instead that he had tried to convince Harris that he had been the victim of a fraud. Nevertheless, Harris returned to Harmony in April 1828, encouraged to continue as Smith's scribe.[35]

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Rachael
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Re: Church Essays on Polygamy

Post by Rachael »

JS was probably just using a hyperbole to defend himself regarding the "5 minutes" comment.

But there were some very early intrigues. Like in 1832 when JS was tarred and feathered, and rumored to nearly being castrated, but the Dr
the lynchers brought along backed out of performing the procedure. This was because JS allegedly made advances toward Nancy Marinda Johnston, and it angered her brother. Sidney Rigdon was dragged by a horse and suffered severe head injuries. Some say it was JS's advances combined with trying to get the Johnston's, whom him and Emma were staying with, to sign property over to the church. The church says it was persecution for his beliefs only.

But if he married in 1827, and did try to get a plural wife in 1832, maybe he was suffering from the '7, no, I mean 5, year itch.' So the 5 years were exaggerated down to 5 minutes.

Fiannan
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Re: Church Essays on Polygamy

Post by Fiannan »

I used to worry that there was something wrong with me, that I was abnormal or some kind of fiend because I was so interested in sex.
That is really interesting. I read a while ago about a young Mormon gal who had been raised in a conservative LDS home. When she went to college she apparently enjoyed discussing issues involving sex and she noticed her LDS friends didn't appreciate it. Later she was involved in modeling and eventually became a famous porn actress.

One wonders how many young people (and not-so-young) find themselves believing there is something wrong with them because the topic of sex is interesting. Face it, one cannot truly understand spirituality, science, or psychology without digging deep into the topic. You cannot stay morally clean without understanding how powerful elements in society use sex as a weapon to turn people away from truth and righteousness. And you cannot understand the plan of salvation if you do not appreciate the power associated with the creative forces that make mortal life possible.

It seems polygamy often devolves into an issue of making this or that accusation against Joseph Smith in regards to sex, yet the core principle surrounding polygamy is about bringing forth a powerful, righteous posterity to earth. Sure, sex is involved but I am sure that within a polygamist family one might have extremes in female sexuality (maybe one wife being a nymphomaniac, another being average and another being bi-romantic or asexual). The beauty of polygamy is that all these women can experience being mothers in Zion while experiencing whatever level of physical intimacy they desire. Polygamy is about equality of women, not about males having a harem.

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Melissa
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Re: Church Essays on Polygamy

Post by Melissa »

Fiannan wrote:
I used to worry that there was something wrong with me, that I was abnormal or some kind of fiend because I was so interested in sex.
That is really interesting. I read a while ago about a young Mormon gal who had been raised in a conservative LDS home. When she went to college she apparently enjoyed discussing issues involving sex and she noticed her LDS friends didn't appreciate it. Later she was involved in modeling and eventually became a famous porn actress.

One wonders how many young people (and not-so-young) find themselves believing there is something wrong with them because the topic of sex is interesting. Face it, one cannot truly understand spirituality, science, or psychology without digging deep into the topic. You cannot stay morally clean without understanding how powerful elements in society use sex as a weapon to turn people away from truth and righteousness. And you cannot understand the plan of salvation if you do not appreciate the power associated with the creative forces that make mortal life possible.

It seems polygamy often devolves into an issue of making this or that accusation against Joseph Smith in regards to sex, yet the core principle surrounding polygamy is about bringing forth a powerful, righteous posterity to earth. Sure, sex is involved but I am sure that within a polygamist family one might have extremes in female sexuality (maybe one wife being a nymphomaniac, another being average and another being bi-romantic or asexual). The beauty of polygamy is that all these women can experience being mothers in Zion while experiencing whatever level of physical intimacy they desire. Polygamy is about equality of women, not about males having a harem.
So now polygamy is equality of women...?

You sure say quite a number of things from time to time to keep ahold of your stance.
You say polygamy is inequality of men (because only the best reproduce) and it's equality of women (all sexual preferences of women can be satisfied).

I have a flock of chickens and one rooster, I agree - my hens are all equal in that they all keep getting bothered by the rooster. He's a creature of opportunity.

I don't like when humans are likened to farm animals, and that is what your comment made me think of. If we did liken humans to farm animals, most men wouldn't make it to adulthood. But I suspect that would be okay with the alpha men. Send the less fortunate sexual rejects...oops i mean non-alphas off to do everything, alphas are busy keeping all their wives happy, lol.

The more I listen (read) subjects on polygamy, the more I feel it is actually a negative and harmful trap for men.

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