Poll: Is God's Love Conditional or Unconditional?

For discussion of liberty, freedom, government and politics.

Is God's Love Conditional or Unconditional?

Conditional
5
9%
Unconditional
50
91%
 
Total votes: 55
PressingForward
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Re: Poll: Is God's Love Conditional or Unconditional?

Post by PressingForward »

Gods love is unconditional, to receive his promised blessings and glory you have to be obedient to his commandments.
As for President Nelson’s talk, I think he splits hairs in the use of the word Love. Just because a church leader says something does not make it Gospel truth either, I think there may be women with more than one earring in the ear, and people with tattoos that receive celestial glory........those with gauges in the ear maybe not so much.

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BeNotDeceived
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Re: Poll: Is God's Love Conditional or Unconditional?

Post by BeNotDeceived »

Stacy Oliver wrote: October 2nd, 2014, 2:14 pm Nelson's talk reflects the limitations of the English language, not incorrect doctrine.
A similar thing happens when Elder Bednar explained "Chosen" in his first General Conference Address.

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BruceRGilbert
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Re: Poll: Is God's Love Conditional or Unconditional?

Post by BruceRGilbert »

God's love is both Conditional and Unconditional. When speaking of ELOHIM, plural, in instances, that denotes Him and Her. The case of which I am aware where the singular was used was on the cross when the Savior said:
Mark 1534 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
There is a difference in the manifestation of LOVE. A Father's love is conditional upon performance and a Mother's love is unconditional upon existence. A perfect being has both aspects. Salvation is unconditional, but Exaltation is conditional. By virtue of this awareness, because we are - we are loved unconditionally.

It is said that a person will not find a Father in God until they find something of God in their father. A "true" mother's love is centered in sacrifice for the sake of nurturing and a child is unconditionally loved.

The "Male" Nature and the "Female" Nature exists within "God."
Deuteronomy 12:28 Observe and hear all these words which I command thee, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee for ever, when thou doest that which is good and right in the sight of the Lord thy God.
Genesis 4:3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord.
4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
6 And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

tdj
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Re: Poll: Is God's Love Conditional or Unconditional?

Post by tdj »

BruceRGilbert wrote: January 5th, 2018, 6:17 am God's love is both Conditional and Unconditional. When speaking of ELOHIM, plural, in instances, that denotes Him and Her. The case of which I am aware where the singular was used was on the cross when the Savior said:
Mark 1534 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
There is a difference in the manifestation of LOVE. A Father's love is conditional upon performance and a Mother's love is unconditional upon existence. A perfect being has both aspects. Salvation is unconditional, but Exaltation is conditional. By virtue of this awareness, because we are - we are loved unconditionally.

It is said that a person will not find a Father in God until they find something of God in their father. A "true" mother's love is centered in sacrifice for the sake of nurturing and a child is unconditionally loved.

The "Male" Nature and the "Female" Nature exists within "God."
Deuteronomy 12:28 Observe and hear all these words which I command thee, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee for ever, when thou doest that which is good and right in the sight of the Lord thy God.
Genesis 4:3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord.
4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
6 And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
I'm sorry, you lost me. What the heck kind of piece of pond scum of a dad would put conditions on whether or not he showed love to his kid?? I think in that instance, mommy dearest needs to lay down the hammer on ole dad.

Vision
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Re: Poll: Is God's Love Conditional or Unconditional?

Post by Vision »

PressingForward wrote: January 5th, 2018, 12:19 am Gods love is unconditional, to receive his promised blessings and glory you have to be obedient to his commandments.
As for President Nelson’s talk, I think he splits hairs in the use of the word Love. Just because a church leader says something does not make it Gospel truth either, I think there may be women with more than one earring in the ear, and people with tattoos that receive celestial glory........those with gauges in the ear maybe not so much.
Best Post of 2018

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BruceRGilbert
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Re: Poll: Is God's Love Conditional or Unconditional?

Post by BruceRGilbert »

tdj wrote:
BruceRGilbert wrote: January 5th, 2018, 6:17 am God's love is both Conditional and Unconditional. When speaking of ELOHIM, plural, in instances, that denotes Him and Her. The case of which I am aware where the singular was used was on the cross when the Savior said:
Mark 1534 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
There is a difference in the manifestation of LOVE. A Father's love is conditional upon performance and a Mother's love is unconditional upon existence. A perfect being has both aspects. Salvation is unconditional, but Exaltation is conditional. By virtue of this awareness, because we are - we are loved unconditionally.

It is said that a person will not find a Father in God until they find something of God in their father. A "true" mother's love is centered in sacrifice for the sake of nurturing and a child is unconditionally loved.

The "Male" Nature and the "Female" Nature exists within "God."
Deuteronomy 12:28 Observe and hear all these words which I command thee, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee for ever, when thou doest that which is good and right in the sight of the Lord thy God.
Genesis 4:3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord.
4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
6 And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
I'm sorry, you lost me. What the heck kind of piece of pond scum of a dad would put conditions on whether or not he showed love to his kid?? I think in that instance, mommy dearest needs to lay down the hammer on ole dad.
Both you and I can appreciate the "balance" which God has in mind within our "unions." It epitomizes the fine balance between "Justice" and "Mercy."

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Durzan
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Re: Poll: Is God's Love Conditional or Unconditional?

Post by Durzan »

God's love is unconditional, we all receive something from God that shows us love (his caring and personal attention, even if it isn't obvious, as well as a resurrected body); however to receive the full results of God's Love (IE Eternal Life with Him in the Celestial Kingdom as joint heirs of Christ) we have to abide by certain conditions.

tdj
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Re: Poll: Is God's Love Conditional or Unconditional?

Post by tdj »

BruceRGilbert wrote: January 5th, 2018, 8:37 am
tdj wrote:
BruceRGilbert wrote: January 5th, 2018, 6:17 am God's love is both Conditional and Unconditional. When speaking of ELOHIM, plural, in instances, that denotes Him and Her. The case of which I am aware where the singular was used was on the cross when the Savior said:
Mark 1534 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
There is a difference in the manifestation of LOVE. A Father's love is conditional upon performance and a Mother's love is unconditional upon existence. A perfect being has both aspects. Salvation is unconditional, but Exaltation is conditional. By virtue of this awareness, because we are - we are loved unconditionally.

It is said that a person will not find a Father in God until they find something of God in their father. A "true" mother's love is centered in sacrifice for the sake of nurturing and a child is unconditionally loved.

The "Male" Nature and the "Female" Nature exists within "God."
Deuteronomy 12:28 Observe and hear all these words which I command thee, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee for ever, when thou doest that which is good and right in the sight of the Lord thy God.
Genesis 4:3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord.
4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
6 And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
I'm sorry, you lost me. What the heck kind of piece of pond scum of a dad would put conditions on whether or not he showed love to his kid?? I think in that instance, mommy dearest needs to lay down the hammer on ole dad.
Both you and I can appreciate the "balance" which God has in mind within our "unions." It epitomizes the fine balance between "Justice" and "Mercy."
Here's my take on this as a new convert. I've been "out there" and have seen and experience the evils of sin on a level I doubt most on here can comprehend. God's love was never conditional to me, in any way shape form or fashion. If I had bad stuff happen, it was only because of the simple cause and effect that happens naturally based on decisions I made in my life. What I suffered from was not God's punishment, or him withholding anything. If you stick your hand in a pot of boiling water, you're going to get burned and hurt. It's not punishment or anything your parent did. It just HAPPENED. The love of my parents never waivered.

God doesn't withold love or even blessings, but if there's a bunch of junk in the way, then you just can't reach it.

watchthewatchers
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Re: Poll: Is God's Love Conditional or Unconditional?

Post by watchthewatchers »

Define "love".
The problem is, in the english language, love is a blanket catch-all phrase that encompasses multiple things.
Are we going to go with the version of love that God loves us and will give us everything we want for no other reason than we want it? We can do anything we want, any thing worldly, anything sinful, anything ungodly, and, because love, God will just give us everything, regardless of whether we repent or follow any commandments. We just have to be good people, according to our own relativistic determinations, and we get it all, because love.
That is the typical definition of love used by the wicked and those trying to rationalize sins they don't want to repent of.

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Thinker
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Re: Poll: Is God's Love Conditional or Unconditional?

Post by Thinker »

watchthewatchers wrote: January 5th, 2018, 12:00 pm Define "love".
The problem is, in the english language, love is a blanket catch-all phrase that encompasses multiple things.
Are we going to go with the version of love that God loves us and will give us everything we want for no other reason than we want it? We can do anything we want, any thing worldly, anything sinful, anything ungodly, and, because love, God will just give us everything, regardless of whether we repent or follow any commandments. We just have to be good people, according to our own relativistic determinations, and we get it all, because love.
That is the typical definition of love used by the wicked and those trying to rationalize sins they don't want to repent of.
Thinker wrote: January 4th, 2018, 11:50 pm
lemuel wrote: October 2nd, 2014, 2:45 pm God's love is a gift given freely; it is up to us to choose to accept the gift.
Well put.

I was just reading a similar thread & the terms, “conditional” and “unconditional” were focused on and defined; but the term, LOVE was not. I believe that love is appreciating what is (reality now) while striving for what is best. “God is love” - pure love - unconditional love. Yet, how we tap into that love is within us (Luke 17:21) & thus experiencing God’s love is conditional upon us being open to it. But that’s the only condition. The conditional part is not God - it’s us and the opposition inherent to this life experience.

And in the eternal perspective, God has given us so much that has proven that God loves us because this life we are blessed with, inherently involves ability to think, feel and spiritually sense (appreciate reality now) & the ability to choose - even with opposition - is in itself “striving for what is best” for us. God actually created us to choose sin - so we could experience, learn & become better. We are punished not for our sins but by them. I believe that deeming sin as requiring God to kick us when we’re down is ungodly and the cause of much suffering like depression, debilitating shame and anxiety. God would much rather we not be luke warm - but experience & then learn & move on. Let go of punitiveness & learn to embrace the paradox of accepting our imperfect state while striving to be better.

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Re: Poll: Is God's Love Conditional or Unconditional?

Post by Spaced_Out »

tdj wrote: January 5th, 2018, 9:14 am Here's my take on this as a new convert. I've been "out there" and have seen and experience the evils of sin on a level I doubt most on here can comprehend. God's love was never conditional to me, in any way shape form or fashion. If I had bad stuff happen, it was only because of the simple cause and effect that happens naturally based on decisions I made in my life. What I suffered from was not God's punishment, or him withholding anything. If you stick your hand in a pot of boiling water, you're going to get burned and hurt. It's not punishment or anything your parent did. It just HAPPENED. The love of my parents never waivered.

God doesn't withold love or even blessings, but if there's a bunch of junk in the way, then you just can't reach it.
The righteous are blessed and favoured, yes the scriptures say come by milk and honey without price. The atonement and blessing of God are freely available to all both bond and free, there are no conditions placed to receive God's love other than obedience and righteousness.
The righteous are favoured, loved and blessed more, because they are more willing to receive it.. He stands at the door and knocks we have to open it to get the love. The most common repeated scriptures is "ask and you shall receive knock and it shall be opened" the individual has to do their part.

Doctrine and Covenants 95:1
1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you whom I love, and whom I love I also chasten that their sins may be forgiven, for with the chastisement I prepare a way for their deliverance in all things out of temptation, and I have loved you—

Alma 48:20
20 And thus they went forth, and the people did ahumble themselves because of their bwords, insomuch that they were highly cfavored of the Lord, and thus they were free from wars and contentions among themselves, yea, even for the space of four years.

Ether 1:34
34 And the abrother of Jared being a large and mighty man, and a man highly favored of the Lord, Jared, his brother, said unto him: Cry unto the Lord, that he will not confound us that we may not bunderstand our words.

Alma 27:30
30 And thus they were a zealous and beloved people, a highly favored people of the Lord.

Mosiah 1:13
13 Yea, and moreover I say unto you, that if this highly favored people of the Lord should fall into atransgression, and become a wicked and an adulterous people, that the Lord will deliver them up, that thereby they become bweak like unto their brethren; and he will no more cpreserve them by his matchless and marvelous power, as he has hitherto preserved our fathers.

1 Nephi 1:1
1 I, Nephi, having been born of goodly parents, therefore I was taught somewhat in all the learning of my father; and having seen many afflictions in the course of my days, nevertheless, having been highly favored of the Lord in all my days; yea, having had a great knowledge of the goodness and the mysteries of God, therefore I make a record of my proceedings in my days.

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Sarah
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Re: Poll: Is God's Love Conditional or Unconditional?

Post by Sarah »

Simply put, unconditional love does not equal unconditional giving. If I had to try to define love, I would say it is an unselfish feeling of affection, and desire for what is best for that individual. Sometimes it is best to withhold blessings or rewards until the individual learns to be loving and unselfish and obedient.

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Often it up to us the chose

Post by BeNotDeceived »

lemuel wrote: October 2nd, 2014, 2:45 pm God's love is a gift given freely; it is up to us to choose to accept the gift.
Well stated indeed.

we become God’s chosen ... as we use our agency to choose God. - David A Bednar

Often it up to us the chose God’s love, and all His abundant tender mercies.
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2005/04/the-tender-mercies-of-the-lord wrote:
... it is often the Lord’s timing that enables us to recognize and treasure these important blessings. ... Truly, “the Lord is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works” (Ps. 145:9).
We must watch closely the timing of events, or we may miss important messages. Image

gardener4life
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Re: Poll: Is God's Love Conditional or Unconditional?

Post by gardener4life »

God's love is unconditional to all of his children.

But we are still choosing if we're his children or Satan's.

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Re: Poll: Is God's Love Conditional or Unconditional?

Post by astrologeracharya4 »

God’s love, as described in the Bible, is clearly unconditional in that His love is expressed toward the objects of His love (that is, His people) despite their disposition toward Him. In other words, God loves because it His nature to love, and that love moves Him toward benevolent action. The unconditional nature of God’s love is most clearly seen in the gospel. The gospel message is basically a story of divine rescue. As God considers the plight of His rebellious people, He determines to save them from their sin, and this determination is based on His love. Listen to the Apostle Paul’s words from his letter to the Romans:

You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

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Re: Poll: Is God's Love Conditional or Unconditional?

Post by astrologeracharya4 »

God’s love, as described in the Bible, is clearly unconditional in that His love is expressed toward the objects of His love (that is, His people) despite their disposition toward Him. In other words, God loves because it His nature to love (1 John 4:8), and that love moves Him toward benevolent action. The unconditional nature of God’s love is most clearly seen in the gospel. The gospel message is basically a story of divine rescue. As God considers the plight of His rebellious people, He determines to save them from their sin, and this determination is based on His love (Ephesians 1:4-5). Listen to the Apostle Paul’s words from his letter to the Romans:

“You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us” (Romans 5:6-8).

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icarus
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Re: Poll: Is God's Love Conditional or Unconditional?

Post by icarus »

I like the messages in 1 Nephi 17 but verse 34 says:

"Behold, the Lord esteemeth all flesh in one; he that is righteous is favored of God. ..."

Verse 40... "And he loveth those who will have him to be their God. ..."

As to conditional or unconditional...

My experience is that if a person were blessed to experience the Father's love for them, that person would know the Father's love for each and every creation.

I don't see His love as either. As was already said, His love is perfect.

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Re: Poll: Is God's Love Conditional or Unconditional?

Post by investigator »

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD

Paul J. Toscano

An Open Letter to Elder Russell M. Nelson of the Council of the Twelve rebutting his article, "Divine Love" Ensign, February 2003. Published here by permission.

16 June 2003
Dear Elder Nelson,

I read with interest and dismay your February 2003 Ensign article "Divine Love," in which you argue that God’s love is not unconditional Although you supported your position with many familiar verses of scripture, your conclusion contradicts the settled doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in particular and of the larger Christian community in general.

The subject you address, divine love, is of vital importance to Latter-day Saints, to Christendom, and to many yet unconverted, seeking souls. For this reason, I am writing this open letter to suggest to all who may read your article that, on this point, you are likely quite wrong, despite your apostolic calling and the status of your article as an official pronouncement of the Church; for your conclusion, though supported by some scriptural passages, runs clean contrary to many others and to the great weight of belief and experience of the disciples of Jesus in and out of the Church.

Joseph Smith warned that great religious questions are not likely to be resolved by recourse to scripture, "for the teachers of religion of the different sects [understand] the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the

by an appeal to the Bible" (Joseph Smith--History 2:12). It is for this reason that he sought wisdom directly from God. Though the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is founded on the principle of revelation, you do not claim that your article’s conclusion was revealed; and, of course, you could not, because you are not the revelator to the Church. However, you write in a prophetic voice, and you make it clear that your conclusion is based upon your reassessment of scripture.

Because of your high calling, many Latter-day Saints will therefore assume that your conclusion is inspired. They might forget the statement of the apostle Paul that "charity [divine love] never faileth; but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part and prophecy in part. ... And now abideth faith, hope and charity, but the greatest of these is charity" (1 Cor. 13:8-10, 13). This scripture would suggest that it is not divine love that is conditional, but the gifts of prophesy, inspiration, and knowledge.

Moreover, it appears that you began your research with a predetermined conclusion in mind and then scoured the scriptures for proof texts, choosing only those passages that seemed to support your novel doctrine. You defined the term "conditional," but you failed to define the term "love." You did not distinguish divine love from divine expectation, or blessing, or approval, or salvation. In the quoted scriptures, you mistake synonyms for divine love for conditions for divine love; and for this reason you conclude that passages like "if a man love me, he will keep my words; and my Father will love him" (John 14:23) express the idea that God’s love is conditioned on our keeping the commandments when the passage can mean that to love God is to keep his commandments.

You give equal weight to both Old and New Testament scriptures and never consider that prophetic understanding of divine love could, with the advent of Christ, have deepened over time. You do not consider the paradoxical nature of such sayings as "love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you" (Matt. 5:44) or of such parables as the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32) or the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:30-37). You suggest that, because God loves conditionally, he does not love the unrighteous, and then you deny this logical conclusion from your premise.

You assume that the King James Bible accurately expresses spiritual or prophetic intent, forgetting that for Latter-day Saints the Bible is correct only so far as it is translated correctly (Eighth Article of Faith). You never state the conditions you claim for God’s love. You make "happiness" the end and divine love means in God’s plan of salvation, contrary to the teachings found in the writings of the apostles Paul and

You identify the doctrine of God’s unconditional love as a false teaching promulgated by the Book of Mormon apostate Nehor when that book makes it clear Nehor’ s heresy was the doctrines of priestcraft and predestination (Alma 1:2-16). You see God’s salvation as a wage rather than a gift, contrary to Paul’s statement: "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:23). You do not explore if it is possible to love God without knowing him, without a testimony, without faith. You do not wonder if those without hope can experience God’s love. You assert that "wickedness never was happiness" (Alma 41:10), but you do not address the question: If righteousness is happiness, why does such happiness so often elude the righteous or why do afflictions so often befall even innocent children and animals? You never grapple with the reality of the lovable prodigal and the unlovable puritan. You do not explain how a God of conditional love is holier than humans whose love is unconditional.

Your article’s chief defect is its failure to distinguish among the different meanings of the term "love." As defined in most dictionaries, love has four basic meanings: (1) sexual attraction, (2) benevolence, (3) affection, and (4) the taking of pleasure in someone or something. Only the latter three are pertinent to divine love, which refers to God’s benevolence--that is, his desire for our holiness, happiness, and ultimate spiritual maturation and eternal well-being. Clearly, in this sense, God’s love is unconditional. God does not stop being benevolent in the face of sinning humans. He is at least as good as those human parents whose love does not diminish when confronted by prodigal children. Besides, Latter-day Saint scripture establishes the unconditional nature of God’s benevolence in passages you did not quote in your article. For example, in Moses 7:28-40, we are told of Enoch's vision of the Lord weeping over the most wicked of his f, to whom, despite their sins, he holds out the offer of salvation through Christ’s redemption.

True, in your article, you admit that divine love is perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal, but then announce that it is also conditional. This is no paradox. It is an outright contradiction. What you grant with one hand you take away with the other. How can God’s love be infinite if it is bounded or limited by conditions? How can God’s love be enduring if it cannot endure sin or disobedience? How can it be universal if it excludes those you don’t approve of? How can it be perfect if it is less reliable than the love of good children for abusive parents or that of good parents for errant children?

There is a way, of course, in which God’s love is conditional. One of the meanings of love is to take pleasure in someone or something. Naturally, God does not take pleasure in us when we cause each other needless suffering, when we are greedy, power-hungry, selfish, narcissistic, and especially when we withhold love from each other. Divine love turns to divine indignation in the face of these sins. But divine love and divine indignation are one and the same; both are derivatives of divine benevolence. God’s rewards and punishments flow from God’s benevolent desire to save us all from the narrow prisons of our egos, our opacity of mind, our fears, and our selfishness. Divine love is expressed both as comfort and rebuke. We are enjoined to rebuke "betimes with sharpness" so long as afterwards we show forth afterwards "an increase of love" (D&C 121:43), which is what I am imperfectly attempting to do in this letter with respect to your well-intentioned but dangerously incorrect discussion of divine love.

In your article, those quoted passages of scripture that show that God’s love is conditional are all about God’s taking pleasure in us. Obviously, he doesn’t if we are deliberately doing our worst, and obviously he does when we are doing our best. But this aspect of God’s love is only part of God’s unconditional, enduring benevolence for his creations, which he desires to save at all costs to himself. You fail to distinguish God’s benevolence for all his creatures from his taking pleasure in his good children. But this is your job, your duty, your calling. It is unseemly that I, an excommunicant with only the barest thread of any remaining faith, should like Balaam’s @#$ (Num. 22:13-35) have to bray all this to you, an apostle, with the full spiritual and temporal resources of the Church at his disposal. But such, I suppose, are the ironies of God.

The rest of your speech is a restatement of the usual confusion of Church leaders over whether we are saved by works or grace. All I can do in response is to repeat Paul’s teaching in the epistle to the Romans that people who attempt to claim salvation on the strength of their good works are doomed to failure. The works that save us are not ours, but those done by Jesus Christ in Gethsemane and on Calvary. The commandment is for us to accept those works as having been done vicariously for us. By accepting his works as our works, we accept the gift of God’s divine love that alone can transform us from sinners into Saints. It is not what we do that makes us righteous, for doers can be hypocrites. It is the love of God dwelling in us that makes us righteous (Moro. 7:47-48). The Church cannot dispense this love. It comes only through the Spirit by the grace of the living God. Your article does not make this clear; rather, while dispiriting its members, your article justifies the corporate Church in its emphasis on judgment and punishment at the expense of tolerance and forgiveness.

Years ago, Church President Harold B. Lee, in a private interview, cautioned me not to accept any new teaching from any Church leader, even the president of the Church, unless it met four tests. President Lee said such a teaching must be (1) consistent with scripture, (2) consistent with the teachings of the prophets living and dead, (3) consistent with the promptings of the Holy Ghost, and (4) consistent with human experience. I fear that your new teaching that God’s love is conditional passes none of these tests. It is not consistent with the teachings of the prophets because no Latter-day Saint has ever before heard any Church leader assert that God’s love is conditional. The doctrine is inconsistent with the Holy Ghost that has prompted numerous Latter-day Saints in both talks and testimonies to bear witness of God’s unconditional love. And the doctrine does not accord with the experiences of the vast majority of the Saints of the Church and the people of the Lord everywhere.

If God’s love were conditional, then the righteous would always be blessed and the wicked always punished. But this is not how the world is. The sun shines and the rain falls on the just and the unjust (Matt. 5:45). One reason why people become atheists or agnostics is that on earth the guilty triumph and the innocent suffer. The Book of Mormon teaches that this is so because mortality is a probationary state in which we must choose good over evil, despite the absence of immediate reward (Alma 12:24).

Elder Nelson, is it probable that God would have created such a probationary state if his love were conditional? Is it probable that God would so love the world that he would send his Son into it to die for it if his love were conditional? Is it probable that God would have endured all the long, troubled centuries of violent human history, or have bargained to save wicked Sodom and Gomorrah, or have visited the spirits in prison and freed them, or have ordained a universal resurrection, or have saved virtually every one of his children in a kingdom of indescribable glory, or decreed the automatic salvation of children who die without reaching the age of accountability if God’s love were conditional? Is it probable that God would have restored the gospel, the priesthood, the ordinances, and the Church in the last days if God were a God of divine, conditional love? Isn’t it far more probable that God’s love is unconditional and that it is the love of the Church and its leaders that is conditioned upon the unquestioning obedience of even the most loyal of the Saints?

Only a very simple creature would conclude that sinners could be motivated to repent before a God of conditional love. Such love would turn sinners to despair while filling the self-righteous with arrogance and authorizing the powerful to further dominate the meek. Sinners will turn to God only if they have faith and hope that God’s charity truly never fails (1 Cor. 13:8).

Please understand that I believe it is no sin to err in doctrine and recognize that it is I who may be wrong. But for both our sakes, I hope that I am not and that God’s love will prove more certain than my faith or your opinion. And though we disagree and speak from vastly different experiences in Mormonism, I sincerely hope that God will love and forgive us despite our failings.

Yours sincerely, Paul Toscano

Z2100
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Posts: 748

Re: Poll: Is God's Love Conditional or Unconditional?

Post by Z2100 »

Meili wrote: October 2nd, 2014, 9:06 am Here's the way I look at it: we are all on different levels and so the outcome is different, but the love is equal.

So it's like if you have three kids, Joe, Sue, and Tracy. Joe is 2 and he's learning how to put his clothes on. Sue is five and she's learning how to tie her shoes. Tracey is 10 and she's learning how to sew her own clothes. Each receives individualized attention from mom and dad, who are helping them learn the skills they need. Each receives praise and admiration for their work. At the end, each receives the good feeling inside of having accomplished something difficult. But the outcome for each is different because they are all individuals with different abilities and different needs. But in the end, they are all still a part of the family and all know they are loved.

That's how I see it with the Lord. He gives each of us what we can stand and doesn't love anyone more than another. Some of us are more advanced than others and so we can attain higher goals. But in the end, we are all loved individuals of the same family.
I could not of said it better than you :)

Juliet
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Re: Poll: Is God's Love Conditional or Unconditional?

Post by Juliet »

Moroni 7:45 charity never faileth.

What endureth all things...charity.

The prodigal son will never be turned away for coming home.

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Silver Pie
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Re: Poll: Is God's Love Conditional or Unconditional?

Post by Silver Pie »

ajax wrote: October 2nd, 2014, 7:19 amWhat say you?
Completely unconditional. But that doesn't mean we don't get consequences when we screw up or are mean.

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