Do People Get Possessed by Evil Spirits?

[JohnnyL]

Some of the other threads have talked about energy healing in depth.

Energy healing is not about using God's power wrong. Can anyone show how God's power can be used without his consent? Like someone can go through a backdoor without his knowledge, and such?

Are miracles performed by any other ways other than according to natural laws? No.

Can natural laws be used without God's consent? Yes, sure, they're natural laws.

Can natural laws be used for good or bad? Yes, depends on the user.

[bethany]

Can natural laws be used for good or bad? Yes, depends on the user.

Exactly, nobody talks abt the flip side of priesthood being misused - which happens. Knowingly & unknowingly. It happens.

[brlenox]

Can natural laws be used for good or bad? Yes, depends on the user.

Exactly, nobody talks abt the flip side of priesthood being misused - which happens. Knowingly & unknowingly. It happens.

Is it possible that there are conditional opportunities to misuse priesthood, that are absolutely not available to most priesthood holders. The point being that until one achieves a Nephi in Helaman / 3rd Nephi, or Elisha, or Moses level of authority where God authorizes them to command and be obeyed that priesthood holder has to act upon the principles outlined in D & C 121 or find that his priesthood authority unavailable.

D & C 121: 36-37

36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.

There is no exception and Moses et al are actually granted their fullness of authority based on the principle that they have been proven to operate within the boundaries of the powers of Heaven. It is possible then to use priesthood authority perhaps in an incorrect fashion as in the case of the waters of Meribah and Moses but this is never even an option for nearly all other priesthood holders.

However, that is not to say that some miraculous events could not be managed by the servants of Satan that may appear to be those expected as the results of priesthood authority but which are actually not by priesthood authority but by Satan's.

[brlenox]

From personal experience, possession I don't know. But I do know that evil is real and can physically touch you. As a teenager, I was playing with voodoo type things (wee-gee board) and calling for ghosts and such. And as I was sleeping that night I physically was held to my bed by physical beings. All black, in body form, but see through. I had a hand covering my mouth, I couldn't talk, scream or move. All I was able to see was between the bodies holding me to my bed. My Dad, being the awesome man he is, had told me some time before in one of his lectures on faith (he is amazing) that what I was feeling could happen and to release myself I had to call on Christ. I closed my eyes and prayed with all my heart "in the name of Jesus Christ, you have now power here, over me, go away". The bodies with arms suddenly thrown off me as if I burned them then they vanished. I ran to my father an told him my experience. I've never been so frightened or thankful for my Fathers teachings of the scriptures to give me that knowledge and power. To overcome evil.

While the origins that enabled this are different, you have, because of this experience some insight into what occurred to Joseph Smith when he went into the grove to pray. He was bound as surely as you were and you have felt somewhat of the experience he testifies to. This is a valuable experience for you.

[Aussie]

I really don't know that much about energy healing but I would have to research into it before I could make an informed comment. What I do agree with whole heartedly is that most priesthood holders are definitely falling down on the job when it comes to the issue of unclean and evil spirit possession and using the priesthood.

The casing out of evil and unclean spirits must be one of the most important (especially now) areas of priesthood responsibility today and it is being extremely neglected. I know Brigham Young said it was up to the fathers in Zion to do this important work. He even stated that he could not do all the casting out and healing for all the afflicted because he would end up having people lined up down the road everyday to have it performed. He stated that he would not do this because it was not his duty and that he would be taking the fathers duties and responsibilities away from them if he did.

However how can a good hearted person, church member or not stand back and let people suffer needlessly when there is a solution but very few are willing to use that solution to help? That is why I do believe that other people who have tried and tried to cast out in the name of Jesus Christ who are not members of the church have been successful. I will tell you why I think this happens, it is called: FAITH, COURAGE and CHARITY. They of themselves may not have the priesthood power but God will see their good works and faith and send angels to cast out for and on behalf of them and the victim.

If only priesthood holders were the ones that could cast out evil and unclean spirits heaps of people on the planet would be possessed and stay possessed. I feel this would be because in my experience, very few Priesthood holders even believe in the true existence of unclean and evil spirits, let alone believing that possession is a common occurrence.

[bethany]

Priesthood holders. There are many ways that this is abused. I had a bishop who believed God was entirely conditional. Everything he spoke was conditioned to something else. So in essence if he blessed you, he cursed you at the same time. There was a woman who was inactive, she had diabetes & had checked into the hospital to have her feet amputated. He went to bless her & caused her feet to be healed on the condition she take her daughter to church. This woman missed the 1st Sunday & he called her & reminded her of the conditions. Again the next Sunday. On the 3rd Sunday she went to see her sister & he called her again. She died that week. Now you may say that was God & you are free to think that. And for quite a while I believed that way. Today I do not. I believe his intentions were that strong. This woman's daughter would have been better off with a mother without feet than losing her with both feet.

God worked hard to teach me that He is not conditional in this manner as this man taught. Because I believed it, & I believed it because I saw it with my eyes & came to accept that God was very punitive. And despite my racing around trying to be perfect, trying to be wonder woman, visiting teacher extraordinaire, & running beyond my means because I could not believe that I was ever enough. I was always insufficient & unworthy of the gifts & attentions of a God that exacted perfection. The first thing He had to do to get me to STOP & receive my gifts so I could do my mission was to unteach me these false teachings.

I worked on a young girl. During high school she became shunned by the youth. She went through a lot of rejections from church in general. She is extremely talented, pretty, very smart & fun. There is no good reason that she be shunned. Through body code methods, we found that her seminary teacher had judged her & sabotaged her relationships in the church. It went back to an incident where he witnessed her kiss her boyfriend in the halls of school & he had verbally chastised her when he saw it. So intense was his disgust that he ended up planting sabotaging energy on her. It created a label or tag on her that turned her life upside down.

We have that type of power with our intentions. We can send love or we can send hate or judgement or any other type of energy. This is why years ago the church asked us not to identify people with same sex attraction with 'labels'. You literally peg them with sabotaging energy that facilitates the fulfillment of that judgement.

Everyone has this type of energy & ability but filtered through the priesthood and especially through the power of their office to those who sustain them it is far stronger. I've released countless situations within the church where these types of abuse of power have occurred. We like to talk about the fiery darts as if satan is pitching them but he has plenty of help in all the churches as people judge & condemn one another.

I had my own issue with being sabotaged. I was primary pres. & soon learned that the bishop I served under was a controlling individual. A micromanager. After I chose my 2 counsellors he intended to call every other position of primary without one bit of input from me, at all. I had 50 children & a cpl teachers were half active & would not get subs. He was using primary callings to cause those who were not committed to come to church & every Sunday was a fiasco to fill those classes w teachers. I didn't get a secretary for months & finally his counsellor comes down to visit me & as he is leaving tosses out as he walks away.... 'I think I'm calling your secretary today'.... 'Um, wait just a minute! Get back here. What are you talking about?'.... He says... 'I'm not supposed to tell you.' ...really? So I demanded the name & told him either I was the president or not - as in I'd be out immediately under this type of thing.

He finally told me & I dissented. She was very young, new mom, getting a divorce, living with her father in an unstable situation. I talked to the bishop & said that it was not acceptable to me. He told me that I had no clue how the church worked. (I made an apt w the SP who told me I was right & he was struggling to teach the bishops this very concept). Anyway I fasted for 2 days & asked The Lord what do I do? Do I capitulate for unity & respect for office? What do I do? By the end of the fast I decided to do it his way. After presenting my decision to the Lord, I was told to stand up for what was right. So I penned a letter. I didn't want to get emotional. I explained to him that this was not my first presidency, but my 3rd & I was well aware of how things should work & that he was causing distress in my primary by treating it as a rehab place. I told him that if this was what I had to face in this position that I needed to be released.

He didn't release me or talk to me any further. He assigned a woman to that position (even explaining to her that it was a test for her over a situation that transpired before he was ever bishop...) anyway. Not to grouse abt what happened, that is not the point.

Years later I asked my energy person why my head was so foggy. My thoughts were difficult to hold & I struggled to complete things. I was always very creative & always imagining things to put together. I had decorated cakes, wedding cakes, etc... Lots of projects going all the time. I tiled my homes... I was not functionless. But for 10 years I had lost those abilities to carry out & finish things. In his anger he sabotaged me. He attacked that aspect of my life. He had an intense attitude toward women anyway (not my assumption, I was close friends with his wife & she spoke of his feelings abt women)... Anyway when I released his sabotaging energy my head FLOODED with energy, my thoughts cleared & I'm back. I can once again cultivate & create & fulfill projects.

So while ppl can sabotage each other all day long, through the offices of the priesthood & that power intensifying their thoughts... Yes, priesthood is abused quite often.

[Desert Roses]

Do you think Bipolarism is also "possession?"

In some cases, yes.

Desert Roses, could you explain what those cases are and how one can tell the difference? Thanks.

Unfortunately...no. I work with mentally ill people, and for me, it's kind of like the Supreme Court's definition of porn...I can't describe it but when I see it, I know it. Often, bipolar is just poor diet and chemical interventions that cause rather than help problems. Other times, it's not BiPolar, it's Borderline Personality Disorder doing a good job hiding fear, anger, and trauma. Sometimes, and it's more a feeling I get than anything else, it's an unclean spirit either very near the person "whispering" in their ear constantly, or it's a spirit that has actually taken up housekeeping in the person's mind.

[brlenox]

Priesthood holders. There are many ways that this is abused. I had a bishop who believed God was entirely conditional. Everything he spoke was conditioned to something else. So in essence if he blessed you, he cursed you at the same time. There was a woman who was inactive, she had diabetes & had checked into the hospital to have her feet amputated. He went to bless her & caused her feet to be healed on the condition she take her daughter to church. This woman missed the 1st Sunday & he called her & reminded her of the conditions. Again the next Sunday. On the 3rd Sunday she went to see her sister & he called her again. She died that week. Now you may say that was God & you are free to think that. And for quite a while I believed that way. Today I do not. I believe his intentions were that strong. This woman's daughter would have been better off with a mother without feet than losing her with both feet.

God worked hard to teach me that He is not conditional in this manner as this man taught. Because I believed it, & I believed it because I saw it with my eyes & came to accept that God was very punitive. And despite my racing around trying to be perfect, trying to be wonder woman, visiting teacher extraordinaire, & running beyond my means because I could not believe that I was ever enough. I was always insufficient & unworthy of the gifts & attentions of a God that exacted perfection. The first thing He had to do to get me to STOP & receive my gifts so I could do my mission was to unteach me these false teachings.

I worked on a young girl. During high school she became shunned by the youth. She went through a lot of rejections from church in general. She is extremely talented, pretty, very smart & fun. There is no good reason that she be shunned. Through body code methods, we found that her seminary teacher had judged her & sabotaged her relationships in the church. It went back to an incident where he witnessed her kiss her boyfriend in the halls of school & he had verbally chastised her when he saw it. So intense was his disgust that he ended up planting sabotaging energy on her. It created a label or tag on her that turned her life upside down.

We have that type of power with our intentions. We can send love or we can send hate or judgement or any other type of energy. This is why years ago the church asked us not to identify people with same sex attraction with 'labels'. You literally peg them with sabotaging energy that facilitates the fulfillment of that judgement.

Everyone has this type of energy & ability but filtered through the priesthood and especially through the power of their office to those who sustain them it is far stronger. I've released countless situations within the church where these types of abuse of power have occurred. We like to talk about the fiery darts as if satan is pitching them but he has plenty of help in all the churches as people judge & condemn one another.

I had my own issue with being sabotaged. I was primary pres. & soon learned that the bishop I served under was a controlling individual. A micromanager. After I chose my 2 counsellors he intended to call every other position of primary without one bit of input from me, at all. I had 50 children & a cpl teachers were half active & would not get subs. He was using primary callings to cause those who were not committed to come to church & every Sunday was a fiasco to fill those classes w teachers. I didn't get a secretary for months & finally his counsellor comes down to visit me & as he is leaving tosses out as he walks away.... 'I think I'm calling your secretary today'.... 'Um, wait just a minute! Get back here. What are you talking about?'.... He says... 'I'm not supposed to tell you.' ...really? So I demanded the name & told him either I was the president or not - as in I'd be out immediately under this type of thing.

He finally told me & I dissented. She was very young, new mom, getting a divorce, living with her father in an unstable situation. I talked to the bishop & said that it was not acceptable to me. He told me that I had no clue how the church worked. (I made an apt w the SP who told me I was right & he was struggling to teach the bishops this very concept). Anyway I fasted for 2 days & asked The Lord what do I do? Do I capitulate for unity & respect for office? What do I do? By the end of the fast I decided to do it his way. After presenting my decision to the Lord, I was told to stand up for what was right. So I penned a letter. I didn't want to get emotional. I explained to him that this was not my first presidency, but my 3rd & I was well aware of how things should work & that he was causing distress in my primary by treating it as a rehab place. I told him that if this was what I had to face in this position that I needed to be released.

He didn't release me or talk to me any further. He assigned a woman to that position (even explaining to her that it was a test for her over a situation that transpired before he was ever bishop...) anyway. Not to grouse abt what happened, that is not the point.

Years later I asked my energy person why my head was so foggy. My thoughts were difficult to hold & I struggled to complete things. I was always very creative & always imagining things to put together. I had decorated cakes, wedding cakes, etc... Lots of projects going all the time. I tiled my homes... I was not functionless. But for 10 years I had lost those abilities to carry out & finish things. In his anger he sabotaged me. He attacked that aspect of my life. He had an intense attitude toward women anyway (not my assumption, I was close friends with his wife & she spoke of his feelings abt women)... Anyway when I released his sabotaging energy my head FLOODED with energy, my thoughts cleared & I'm back. I can once again cultivate & create & fulfill projects.

So while ppl can sabotage each other all day long, through the offices of the priesthood & that power intensifying their thoughts... Yes, priesthood is abused quite often.

Most of what you are describing is unrighteous dominion, if you have perceived it right. If you believe the scriptures, unrighteous dominion shut's off a priesthood holders access to the powers of Heaven. Thus whatever you are describing as a priesthood function can only a best be the wrongful acts of an individual or individuals but it cannot be the exercise of God's authority.

[brlenox]

The casing out of evil and unclean spirits must be one of the most important (especially now) areas of priesthood responsibility today and it is being extremely neglected. I know Brigham Young said it was up to the fathers in Zion to do this important work. He even stated that he could not do all the casting out and healing for all the afflicted because he would end up having people lined up down the road everyday to have it performed. He stated that he would not do this because it was not his duty and that he would be taking the fathers duties and responsibilities away from them if he did.

However how can a good hearted person, church member or not stand back and let people suffer needlessly when there is a solution but very few are willing to use that solution to help? That is why I do believe that other people who have tried and tried to cast out in the name of Jesus Christ who are not members of the church have been successful. I will tell you why I think this happens, it is called: FAITH, COURAGE and CHARITY. They of themselves may not have the priesthood power but God will see their good works and faith and send angels to cast out for and on behalf of them and the victim.

The underlined portion is a very insightful principle that I believe is the crux of any valid healing that is recognized by the Lord. There are a couple of circumstances that illustrate this beautifully such as the Story that Harold B. Lee relates of an experience he had while on a plane flight home where he felt angelic ministrants give him a priesthood blessing to preserve his life until he could receive proper care.

You are also correct that the typical brethren of the Church are not wisely developing their knowledge of these functions of casting out evil.

I would like to find the talk you reference by Brigham Young that he could not do all of the casting out by himself. If you know teh source or if you can even provide some more specific elements that you recollect were in the talk might be helpful. I have already searched on what you have provided but no hits.

[brlenox]

Do you think Bipolarism is also "possession?"

In some cases, yes.

Desert Roses, could you explain what those cases are and how one can tell the difference? Thanks.

Unfortunately...no. I work with mentally ill people, and for me, it's kind of like the Supreme Court's definition of porn...I can't describe it but when I see it, I know it. Often, bipolar is just poor diet and chemical interventions that cause rather than help problems. Other times, it's not BiPolar, it's Borderline Personality Disorder doing a good job hiding fear, anger, and trauma. Sometimes, and it's more a feeling I get than anything else, it's an unclean spirit either very near the person "whispering" in their ear constantly, or it's a spirit that has actually taken up housekeeping in the person's mind.

Would you perhaps agree that it is not so much a specific external perception but simply a perception of a darkness or even a malevolent sense of evil feelings?

[bethany]

But it is their priesthood that places them in a position to exact damage. If your interpretation is correct then how did the same bishop go on to continue to effect healings? If his priesthood is cutoff?

[bethany]

I do not believe that a person's priesthood is switched off until they have waded far across the bounds. & to an extent it is still there in order to effectualize the conferring of priesthood & offices, baptisms, & other functions. Otherwise we would be repeating those ordinances, etc. often. So if their priesthood is cut off, then we have years & years of work to be repeated. & my husband would therefore have no priesthood having obtained it from one of these men.

[brlenox]

But it is their priesthood that places them in a position to exact damage. If your interpretation is correct then how did the same bishop go on to continue to effect healings? If his priesthood is cutoff?

For my mind, which insists that I line things up properly into a collective of sensible interpretations, I may have a tendency to be a bit more precise than others. When I was a Bishop, my priesthood was no different than any other male Melchizedek holder in my Ward. My calling was Bishop but when and or if, I failed in my exercise of proper dominion I, just as any other priesthood holder, had the heavens sealed and my use of priesthood was made completely ineffective. From time to time in my life I have actually felt that take place.

Fortunately the principle of repentance enables a person in most cases to be found quickly in God's good graces again trying harder to do better as it is a very sad position to have felt his presence near and then absent. It is very discouraging and empty to realize He has departed for awhile.Brigham once stated that he was always within five minutes of being able to give blessing as when he did wrong he was so quick to repent that he was clean to continue the exercise of his priesthood.

[bethany]

I'll make my point a different way. In emotion code ppl are taught to use a magnet to increase their intentions to facilitate releases. It's extremely effective & as a result of its use, over time the person's intentions & abilities to move out energies drastically increase. I think it is the same with priesthood. It becomes a magnifying facilitator to teach ppl how to focus their intentions. So even if they flip their intent, it's still been increased & the weapons that could have been sent are far more developed.

[brlenox]

I'll make my point a different way. In emotion code ppl are taught to use a magnet to increase their intentions to facilitate releases. It's extremely effective & as a result of its use, over time the person's intentions & abilities to move out energies drastically increase. I think it is the same with priesthood. It becomes a magnifying facilitator to teach ppl how to focus their intentions. So even if they flip their intent, it's still been increased & the weapons that could have been sent are far more developed.

I am convinced you would really appreciate Doug Mendenhalls book as you speak in similar tongues.

http://www.amazon.com/Conquering-Spirit ... mendenhall

I do not know if you are in the Salt Lake area but he and a group of spiritual healers, and empathics and other such groups meet and travel to apply their gifts. If I had not given my copy away already I would send it to you.

[Aussie]

Desert Rose, when people become possessed the main possessing spirit has several other unclean / evil spirits around the main evil host spirit. They are constantly in commune with the host. These horrible spirits love confusion, delusion, illusions and all manner of deceit. They are electrical and are able to get into radios, televisions and computers.

They make there victim think that other people are saying different things to them on these mediums and when other people are possessed with other unclean and evil spirits those spirits also communicate with the host spirit causing more confusion for the victim. Their victim is able to hear all these voices and communications.

That is why the victim thinks that other people are saying things to them that they are not and these spirits also give gruesome visions and so forth to frighten and basically send their victim insane or make them suicidal.

[Aussie]

The casing out of evil and unclean spirits must be one of the most important (especially now) areas of priesthood responsibility today and it is being extremely neglected. I know Brigham Young said it was up to the fathers in Zion to do this important work. He even stated that he could not do all the casting out and healing for all the afflicted because he would end up having people lined up down the road everyday to have it performed. He stated that he would not do this because it was not his duty and that he would be taking the fathers duties and responsibilities away from them if he did.

However how can a good hearted person, church member or not stand back and let people suffer needlessly when there is a solution but very few are willing to use that solution to help? That is why I do believe that other people who have tried and tried to cast out in the name of Jesus Christ who are not members of the church have been successful. I will tell you why I think this happens, it is called: FAITH, COURAGE and CHARITY. They of themselves may not have the priesthood power but God will see their good works and faith and send angels to cast out for and on behalf of them and the victim.

The underlined portion is a very insightful principle that I believe is the crux of any valid healing that is recognized by the Lord. There are a couple of circumstances that illustrate this beautifully such as the Story that Harold B. Lee relates of an experience he had while on a plane flight home where he felt angelic ministrants give him a priesthood blessing to preserve his life until he could receive proper care.

You are also correct that the typical brethren of the Church are not wisely developing their knowledge of these functions of casting out evil.

I would like to find the talk you reference by Brigham Young that he could not do all of the casting out by himself. If you know teh source or if you can even provide some more specific elements that you recollect were in the talk might be helpful. I have already searched on what you have provided but no hits.

Here is the specific quote from the Journal of Discourses.

Suppose that I had faith like a grain of mustard seed, and could do the things which Christ has said are possible to be done through that faith, and that another man on the continent of Asia had the same faith, we could not accomplish much because but two would have all the power of Satan to combat. Do you suppose that Jesus Christ healed every person that was sick, or that all the devils were cast out in the country where he sojourned? I do not. Working miracles, healing the sick, raising the dead, and the like, were almost as rare in his day as in this our day. Once in a while the people would have faith in his power, and what is called a miracle would be performed, but the sick, the blind, the deaf and dumb, the crazy, and those possessed with different kinds of devils were around him, and only now and then could his faith have power to take effect, on account of the want of faith in the individuals.

Many suppose that in the days of the Savior no person was sick, in the vicinity of his labors, but what was healed; this is a mistake, for it was only occasionally that a case of healing a sick person or casting out a devil occurred. But again, suppose that two-thirds of the inhabitants of Jerusalem and the regions round about had actually possessed like faith in the Savior that a few did, then it is very probable that all the sick would have been healed and the devils cast out, for there would have been a predominance of a good power over the evil influences.

Let two persons be on the continent of America, having faith like a grain of mustard seed, and let one of them be situated on the Atlantic and the other on the Pacific coast, and most of the sick would remain sick around them, the dying would die, and those possessed of devils would continue to be tormented, though once in a while a sick person might be healed, or a blind person be made to see. Now let each one of those individuals have another person of like faith added to him, and they will do as much again work; then let there be four persons in the east and four in the west, all possessing faith like a grain of mustard seed, and there will be four times as much done as when there was but one in each place; and thus go on increasing their number in this ratio until, by and by, all the Latter-day Saints have faith like a grain of mustard seed, and where would there be place for devils? Not in these mountains, for they would all be cast out. Do you not perceive that that would be a great help to us?

If I had power of myself to heal the sick, which I do not profess to have, or to cast out devils, which power I have not got, though if the Lord sees fit to cast them out through my command it is all right—still if I had that power, and there was no other person to help me, the people would do as they do now, they would hunt me almost to death, saying, "Won't you lay hands on this sick person? Won't you go to my house over yonder?" and so on. I am sent for continually, though I only go occasionally, because it is the privilege of every father, who is an Elder in Israel, to have faith to heal his family, just as much so as it is my privilege to have faith to heal my family; and if he does not do it he is not living up to his privilege. It is just as reasonable for him to ask me to cut his wood and maintain his family, for if he had faith himself he would save me the trouble of leaving other duties to attend to his request. (JD 3:45-46)

You might also be interested in this talk by Bruce R. McConkie.

Bruce R. McConkie, “The Doctrine of the Priesthood,” Ensign, May 1982, 32

My brethren of the priesthood: To all of you, to all holders of the Aaronic and Melchizedek Priesthoods, I issue this challenge: Come, learn the doctrine of the priesthood; come, live as befits one who is a servant of the Lord.

This doctrine, this doctrine of the priesthood—unknown in the world and but little known even in the Church—cannot be learned out of the scriptures alone. It is not set forth in the sermons and teachings of the prophets and Apostles, except in small measure.

The doctrine of the priesthood is known only by personal revelation. It comes, line upon line and precept upon precept, by the power of the Holy Ghost to those who love and serve God with all their heart, might, mind, and strength. (See D&C 98:12.)

A couple of good websites to research the Journal of Discourses and other general conference talks can be found here:

http://jod.mrm.org/1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://corpus.byu.edu/gc/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[JohnnyL]

Some of the other threads have talked about energy healing in depth.

Energy healing is not about using God's power wrong. Can anyone show how God's power can be used without his consent? Like someone can go through a backdoor without his knowledge, and such?

Are miracles performed by any other ways other than according to natural laws? No.

Can natural laws be used without God's consent? Yes, sure, they're natural laws.

Can natural laws be used for good or bad? Yes, depends on the user.

For example, you can use electricity in good or bad ways; it's natural. Energy healing is understanding and/or using natural laws. The priesthood uses natural laws, but is not given to all men. Satan can use natural laws for his purposes.

[Dannyk]

I'll make my point a different way. In emotion code ppl are taught to use a magnet to increase their intentions to facilitate releases. It's extremely effective & as a result of its use, over time the person's intentions & abilities to move out energies drastically increase. I think it is the same with priesthood. It becomes a magnifying facilitator to teach ppl how to focus their intentions. So even if they flip their intent, it's still been increased & the weapons that could have been sent are far more developed.

I am convinced you would really appreciate Doug Mendenhalls book as you speak in similar tongues.

http://www.amazon.com/Conquering-Spirit ... mendenhall

I do not know if you are in the Salt Lake area but he and a group of spiritual healers, and empathics and other such groups meet and travel to apply their gifts. If I had not given my copy away already I would send it to you.

Agreed...I was surprised when you said that you had not heard of Doug or his book. I think you would appreciate it.

[bethany]

I'll make my point a different way. In emotion code ppl are taught to use a magnet to increase their intentions to facilitate releases. It's extremely effective & as a result of its use, over time the person's intentions & abilities to move out energies drastically increase. I think it is the same with priesthood. It becomes a magnifying facilitator to teach ppl how to focus their intentions. So even if they flip their intent, it's still been increased & the weapons that could have been sent are far more developed.

I am convinced you would really appreciate Doug Mendenhalls book as you speak in similar tongues.

http://www.amazon.com/Conquering-Spirit ... mendenhall

I do not know if you are in the Salt Lake area but he and a group of spiritual healers, and empathics and other such groups meet and travel to apply their gifts. If I had not given my copy away already I would send it to you.

Agreed...I was surprised when you said that you had not heard of Doug or his book. I think you would appreciate it.

I am aware of Doug's work. I first read abt his daughter years ago. But I do very well with receiving the guidance required in the moment it is needed.

[Dannyk]

Most of what you are describing is unrighteous dominion, if you have perceived it right. If you believe the scriptures, unrighteous dominion shut's off a priesthood holders access to the powers of Heaven. Thus whatever you are describing as a priesthood function can only a best be the wrongful acts of an individual or individuals but it cannot be the exercise of God's authority.

I tend to agree with both of you. I think you are right, that when we engage in unrighteous dominion of any kind, that a great deal of things do shut off. I think a person who does that no longer has with them the power that comes from love and kindness, with gentleness, etc.

I also agree with Bethany that it probably isn't that a person's priesthood is over...or else we'd have to redo a lot of ordinances.

One thing that has helped me in regards to these kinds of questions, is when I learned the aramaic meaning behind the words "good" and "evil". Because of our western, greek influenced, legalistic minds...we conjure up all sorts of images about what good and evil is, and we see it in a very black and white setting.

What is interesting about the words Christ used when speaking, is that they were more like the words "Ripe" and "Unripe". This was important because he was speaking to an agrarian society. Most of the parables Christ used were related to farming and cultivation and reaping and sowing and harvesting. So, to convey the words we now read as good and evil, he used "ripe" for actions that bring forth life, and "unripe" for actions that do not yield life.

This has relevance when you look at Moroni 7, and he says that a man, being evil, cannot do that which is good. Because we are legalistic, we often read passages like that and assume that it is talking about murders and robbers and abusers and what not. But what if instead, it is just talking about temporary states of being.

What if it is saying that a man, being unripe (angry, judgmental, fearful, lustful, envious, unkind, etc) cannot do that which is good...or in other words even if he does good things like give a gift, they will not produce fruit unto himself because he is unripe. And a man, being in a moment ripeness (full of love towards fellow man, forgiving, kind, charitable, grateful, hopeful, etc.) cannot do that which is evil, and cannot bring forth evil fruit.

I don't know about you all...but I'm capable of being kind and grateful and hopeful for most of the day, and then for a moment I become angry and judgmental. It doesn't mean I'm an evil person, but it does mean that whatever comes out of that evil/unripe way of being, will not yield anything that will sustain life for me.

I think many priesthood leaders (and of course all human beings) are capable of doing this switch back and forth. They may for the most part be motivated by diligent service and obedience to God, they may have great desires for the people they are stewards over, and pray over. And for that reason, when they are motivated by states of being that are "Ripe", their work yields fruit and blesses lives.

The minute they exercise unrighteous dominion, the minute the demean another person, judge unrighteously, have distaste for a person or their actions....in that moment they are behaving in an unripe way. And instead of their actions yielding fruit and life and joy....their actions spread decay, death, disharmony, and yes...sometimes the fiery darts of the adversary.

To Bethany's point...though the person who is unripe in that moment may not have the priesthood of God....simply by the authority of position they have, it is possible for us to give them power over us, and we may believe their condemning actions more than we should, simply because of who they are. That does not mean it is the Priesthood power that is exerting control over us and harming us.....but it is our belief in them that makes their (hopefully) temporary state of unripeness seem more like it is the will of God, and therefore God's opinion of us as expressed through his leaders.

We are the ones who give those who would abuse their authority the very power by which they abuse us. It doesn't take another person acting by the priesthood (or better yet in the absence of it), to have power in our lives. When a leader condemns, even if he does so unrighteously, it is usually we who take that unrighteous condemnation to heart simply because of who uttered it....and as in the experiences Bethany shared, we just might carry that moment of another's unripeness with us for years after the fact.

That may not be priesthood power that is doing it...but it is power nonetheless. I've experienced to a degree the same things Bethany describes. Our intentions towards another are more powerful than we suppose, and often carry with them more energy than we can imagine.

Hence why it would be so important to be "ripe", and live in the manner Christ teaches in the sermon on the mount....so that we can be free of the kind of unripe energy people just spread around...and instead have for all our fellow man love, and for our God and Father.

[bethany]

The thing is that as we learn to wield power & know that we can it is magnified. Years ago when my gifts opened up, I had a cpl experiences where I was warned to guard my thoughts because they would manifest. I forget the first thing that was shown me, but I gave attention to a fleeting neg fear & it immediately happened. Another day I was thinking about my youngest who never choked, we were eating chips & salsa & he always handled it. As soon as I thought it weird he never choked, he immediately choked badly. I avoided those thoughts from that moment forward & made sure I was constantly sending love & avoiding any judgements toward others. I would fast & pray abt my needs which really had more to do with my temple work or family's safety... Other types of activities that were functional everyday issues & literally my fasts/prayers would be answered immediately. I would foresee future things that were short term, Etc. Being given that gift to manifest, it would have been devastating if I had tossed out hate or anger or fear.

A friend that used to manifest all the time asked recently why she had that power pulled back. God showed her a scenario with her husband driving home & she was thinking... What if he hits a deer or has an accident driving thru the mountains. She needs to let go of the fear or she will create those accidents. So if you have that power given to you & you go into fear mode then that fear will happen. If you as a priesthood holder have to project your personal demands on the members... You can cause trouble. Let them manage their own lives. We need to not judge our youth but support them. My bishop right now is awesome, very good at being supportive & inspirational. Before I moved I had a very condemning bishop.

Danny you probably explained it better than me. Even if God withdraws His power, the person has gained the focus to effectualize their thoughts.

[larsenb]

. . . . . This has relevance when you look at Moroni 7, and he says that a man, being evil, cannot do that which is good. Because we are legalistic, we often read passages like that and assume that it is talking about murders and robbers and abusers and what not. But what if instead, it is just talking about temporary states of being.

What if it is saying that a man, being unripe (angry, judgmental, fearful, lustful, envious, unkind, etc) cannot do that which is good...or in other words even if he does good things like give a gift, they will not produce fruit unto himself because he is unripe. And a man, being in a moment ripeness (full of love towards fellow man, forgiving, kind, charitable, grateful, hopeful, etc.) cannot do that which is evil, and cannot bring forth evil fruit.

I don't know about you all...but I'm capable of being kind and grateful and hopeful for most of the day, and then for a moment I become angry and judgmental. It doesn't mean I'm an evil person, but it does mean that whatever comes out of that evil/unripe way of being, will not yield anything that will sustain life for me. . . . . .

Excellent commentary, Dannyk, especially your suggestion that the Moroni 7 passages are mainly talking about what may be a temporary or possibly transitory state of being or of mind/spirit.

I'm in the middle of a scripture memorization program and have memorized most of Moroni 7, and was quite bothered by my black-and-white interpretations of this and similar passages in Moroni Ch. 7; i.e., thinking he was talking about a stark, absolute, evil person. Whereas we all know how easy it is to slip into an unrighteous frame of mind and even act out from that position.

What we are all trying to do, I think, is arrive at the state where we do good continually; where we reign in our tendency to slip into unrighteous or "unripe', or evil as it were, attitudes or states of mind/spirit, with their accompanying actions.

As I rehearse these passages, I'm going to keep your idea in mind. It makes more sense, and fits reality quite well, in my view.

Thank you!

[Dannyk]

. . . . . This has relevance when you look at Moroni 7, and he says that a man, being evil, cannot do that which is good. Because we are legalistic, we often read passages like that and assume that it is talking about murders and robbers and abusers and what not. But what if instead, it is just talking about temporary states of being.

What if it is saying that a man, being unripe (angry, judgmental, fearful, lustful, envious, unkind, etc) cannot do that which is good...or in other words even if he does good things like give a gift, they will not produce fruit unto himself because he is unripe. And a man, being in a moment ripeness (full of love towards fellow man, forgiving, kind, charitable, grateful, hopeful, etc.) cannot do that which is evil, and cannot bring forth evil fruit.

I don't know about you all...but I'm capable of being kind and grateful and hopeful for most of the day, and then for a moment I become angry and judgmental. It doesn't mean I'm an evil person, but it does mean that whatever comes out of that evil/unripe way of being, will not yield anything that will sustain life for me. . . . . .

Excellent commentary, Dannyk, especially your suggestion that the Moroni 7 passages are mainly talking about what may be a temporary or possibly transitory state of being or of mind/spirit.

I'm in the middle of a scripture memorization program and have memorized most of Moroni 7, and was quite bothered by my black-and-white interpretations of this and similar passages in Moroni Ch. 7; i.e., thinking he was talking about a stark, absolute, evil person. Whereas we all know how easy it is to slip into an unrighteous frame of mind and even act out from that position.

What we are all trying to do, I think, is arrive at the state where we do good continually; where we reign in our tendency to slip into unrighteous or "unripe', or evil as it were, attitudes or states of mind/spirit, with their accompanying actions.

As I rehearse these passages, I'm going to keep your idea in mind. It makes more sense, and fits reality quite well, in my view.

Thank you!

I am more than delighted that the commentary resonated with you. It is one of the most important things I've learned and really helped me solidify my shift towards less black/white/legalistic/western mind thinking, and more towards a mindset that I believe is designed to yield "the kingdom of God [which] is within you".

If you are interested in exploring the idea further, I suggest reading M. Catherine Thomas "A Light in the Wilderness". She is not the one that presented the idea to me, but the entire book is about natural man vs man of Christ types of states of being. It's one of the best books I've read.

The other one that actually taught me this and SO MANY OTHER BEAUTIFUL THINGS was a book by Non-denominational Pastor David Brisbin, and it is called "The Fifth Way: On the Aramaic sayings of Christ" or something like that. I don't believe it is in print now because he is redoing the book....but MAN IS IT GOOD.

If you wish to see some additional commentary on the concept, feel free to review a talk I gave last year that I posted on my blog - http://www.ablogaboutlove.com/2013/06/c ... ermon.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

Also, below is some commentary on Moroni 7 that I left in one of the private areas...you might find it helpful. I just posted the whole thing instead of a link, since not everyone could go there. We were discussing the idea of doubting doubt. This fits nicely with the commentary Bethany has on manifesting intentions.

I love this conversation. I was forced to learn a few years ago how totally destructive fear and doubt and other non-virtues can be. Much of life is a self-fulfilling prophesy, we tend to reap what we sow on even the tiniest of levels. Perhaps this is why agency is so important, and why it is so important to use it on the little tiny stuff like recognizing doubt and choosing faith instead, or recognizing anger and choosing love instead. (The sermon on the mount conveys this idea well, with Christ clarifying that choosing not to kill is not good enough...you're not just choosing whether or not you will kill, he doesn't even want you to be full of anger towards your brother.)

Like others have said, a seed of doubt planted and nourished creates it's own reality for an individual, independent of a greater reality. Such is the story of Laman and Lemuel vs Nephi. Nephi is the example of always choosing virtue (faith, hope, love, etc) in the face of the good and bad of life, and his brothers are the example of choosing non-virtue (fear, doubt, and enmity) in the face of both the good and bad in life. They both go through nearly identical circumstances (leaving homeland, giving up possessions, almost being killed while on an errand for the Lord, wandering in the desert, etc)...and yet they end up living in completely different "realities" that are entirely shaped by the virtue or non-virtue they aligned with. Though Nephi suffered a great deal in his journeys and at the hands of his brothers, he proclaims the goodness of God and sings God's praises. Laman and Lemuel have nothing but evil to speak of the exact same experiences.

It isn't so important what happens to you, but what you think about what happens to you.

I like to see it in light of how I read Moroni 7:1-19. We are taught what it takes to be a peaceable follower of Christ, and we are told that all "good things" come from God, and all "evil things" come from the devil. But what is a good or evil thing? What is a "thing"? Is he saying "good circumstances" come from God....or is a thing different than that? Does thing not refer to actual temporal moments or objects or even blessings...but instead the virtue that WE CHOOSE to embrace when we experience them.

This would explain why he says "a man being evil cannot do that which is good; for if he offereth a gift, or prayeth unto God, except he shall do it with real intent it profiteth him nothing." So apparently good things are neither gift giving, nor praying (even though most of us would usually say both of them are good). Good is the virtue that accompanies gift giving, or praying.

I could pay a compliment to someone, which normally would be a good thing. But if I'm doing it to manipulate their emotions, it is no longer good. So it isn't about the compliment at all, it is about the heart of the one offering. Likewise the person receiving the compliment could either receive it in gratitude, or receive it in pride. So again, it has nothing to do with the compliment, but the way it was received.

I've come to feel that "all things which are good come from God" refers more to the virtues consistent with Gods character, and less to the things themselves. The three all encompassing virtues being Faith, Hope, and Charity. Those things which are evil are also not always "things", but non-virtues - the opposite of faith/hope/love - which includes fear/doubt/enmity.

This is what doubting doubt means to me. Realize that in most circumstances, the existence of doubt is an energy/emotion/attitude that is inconsistent with the nature of God. Like Sara said, the Spirit has no interest in confirming doubt.

In this way, if you are praying for a job and you get it...getting the job is not the "good thing". The good thing is allowing your heart to swell with gratitude, and using this blessing to offer increased generosity and kindness. You could also get the job and choose instead of gratitude....Pride for how smart you are, lifting yourself up against other applicants. Likewise if you pray and DON'T get the job, not getting the job has nothing to do with and "evil thing"....but instead how you react to it. If you react to that in patience, faith, added humility and long-suffering...that is Goodness from God and it will sustain you. If you react to not getting the job with anger and bitterness, with questioning the Lord and doubting his goodness, that would be the "Evil thing".

Sorry if this doesn't make sense, it's much easier to explain in person. Drawing nearer to God has happened as I've learned to identify the non-virtue/natural man responses that want to arise within me to both the good and bad of life, and choosing Virtue instead. The result of choosing virtue??? Turn to 2 Peter 1:1-12....after listing virtues consistent with Godliness Peter says "For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ." He then goes on to say to do otherwise is to accept blindness, and then encourages all to seek their calling and election.

[JohnnyL]

Church leaders, early church experiences. With links (but they don't work for me).

https://bookofmormonnotes.wordpress.com ... ilarities/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;