Is there an expert in the house?

[freedomforall]

Here are examples of the term furlongs being used, yet the distances of such vary.

Luke 24:13
13 ¶And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore (a) furlongs.

(a)13 a about threescore furlongs
The distance here indicated is about 7½ miles or 12 kilometers.
...................................................................................................................................................................................

John 6:19
19 So when they had rowed about five and twenty or thirty furlongs, they see Jesus walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the ship: and they were afraid.

No reference given.
...................................................................................................................................................................................

John 11:18
18 Now Bethany was nigh unto Jerusalem, about fifteen (b) furlongs off:

(b)18 a furlongs
GR stadium—607 English feet, about 185 meters.
...................................................................................................................................................................................

Revelation 14:20
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

No reference given.
...................................................................................................................................................................................

Revelation 21:16
16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand (c) furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

(c)16 b furlongs
GR stadia. A stadium was about 607 English feet, or 185.2 meters.
...................................................................................................................................................................................

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadia_%28length%29" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furlong" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Based on all these varying distances what is the actual distance of a furlong?
one stade is equal to 600 feet
furlong is a measure of distance in imperial units and U.S. customary units equal to 660 feet
stadium was about 607 English feet
What distance is threescore furlongs?

According to Rev 21:16 ...12,000 furlongs is 7,284,000 ft...or 1,379.54 miles
If the distance per furlong were to be 660 ft, the distance would be 7,900,000 ft, or 1,500 miles, and the square would be much bigger.
If 600 is correct, the distance would be 7,200,000 ft, or 1,363.63 miles

How is all this reconciled?

[truth]

I'm no expert, but your answer resides in your quoted material:

Here are examples of the term furlongs being used, yet the distances of such vary.

Luke 24:13
13 ¶And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore (a) furlongs.

(a)13 a about threescore furlongs
The distance here indicated is about 7½ miles or 12 kilometers.
...................................................................................................................................................................................

John 6:19
19 So when they had rowed about five and twenty or thirty furlongs, they see Jesus walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the ship: and they were afraid.

No reference given.
...................................................................................................................................................................................

John 11:18
18 Now Bethany was nigh unto Jerusalem, about fifteen (b) furlongs off:

(b)18 a furlongs
GR stadium—607 English feet, about 185 meters.

Also, from http://www.etymonline.com:

furlong (n.)
Old English furlang measure of distance of roughly 220 yards, originally the length of a furrow in the common field of 10 acres, from furh "furrow" + lang "long." The "acre" of the common field being variously measured, the furlong was fixed 9c. on the classical stadium, one-eighth of a Roman mile.

The Revelations references you cite don't contain the word "about" but the inherent meaning of "furlong" as roughly 220 yards already implies it.

[RaVaN]

"Based on all these varying distances what is the actual distance of a furlong?
one stade is equal to 600 feet
furlong is a measure of distance in imperial units and U.S. customary units equal to 660 feet
stadium was about 607 English feet
What distance is threescore furlongs?

According to Rev 21:16 ...12,000 furlongs is 7,284,000 ft...or 1,379.54 miles
If the distance per furlong were to be 660 ft, the distance would be 7,900,000 ft, or 1,500 miles, and the square would be much bigger.
If 600 is correct, the distance would be 7,200,000 ft, or 1,363.63 miles

How is all this reconciled?"(freedomforall)

TL:DR version: You can't reconcile it unless you get rid of the variables. You need to know the size of that reed (edit) and how many rods were in that furlong(end edit), otherwise it is completely guessing.

First, all manmade measurements are approximations only, and the +/- is based off the equipment used to measure with. In the case of Rev 21:16, the base unit of measurement was a golden reed.

"15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. "(JST Revelation 21:15)

So that would be how you would know what approximation to use. Now, was that reed equal to a rod?

"1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod; and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. "(Revelation 11:1)

If the rod was used as the base measurement, a rod being approximately 2.96 meters(roman historic),

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_(unit)

that would make the distance 883 miles or so.(if my math is right...which usually isn't...

2.96x40x12000=1420800=882.84419miles Assuming the base measurement of a rod is equivalent to 2.96 meters, and that a rod is a reed...but wait there's more!

In Ezekiel, you have the same thing occurs...measuring reed, angel, city measuring....and you can see what the size of that reed is:

"3 And he brought me thither, and, behold, there was a man whose appearance was like the appearance of brass, with a line of flax in his hand, and a measuring reed; and he stood in the gate.

4 And the man said unto me, Son of man, behold with thine eyes, and hear with thine ears, and set thine heart upon all that I shall show thee; for to the intent that I might show them unto thee are thou brought hither; declare all that thou seest to the house of Israel.

5 And behold a wall on the outside of the house round about, and in the man's hand a measuring reed of six cubits long by the cubit and a handbreadth; so he measured the breadth of the building, one reed; and the height, one reed. "(Ezekiel 40:3-5)

So the reed here was six cubits and a handsbreadth. So what was the size of a cubit? And whose handbreadth are you using as a standard of measurement? Once again, that reed still is the variable, but you can get a bit closer with this but it still is an approximation.

Regardless, it will be a big city in the New Earth, so why the important in focusing on the exact size if you don't mind me asking?

[RaVaN]

By the...you have the size of the reed it would go like this Reed multiplied by 40= size of a furlong.


Edit===>>>> I am NOT an expert

[freedomforall]

"Based on all these varying distances what is the actual distance of a furlong?
one stade is equal to 600 feet
furlong is a measure of distance in imperial units and U.S. customary units equal to 660 feet
stadium was about 607 English feet
What distance is threescore furlongs?

According to Rev 21:16 ...12,000 furlongs is 7,284,000 ft...or 1,379.54 miles
If the distance per furlong were to be 660 ft, the distance would be 7,900,000 ft, or 1,500 miles, and the square would be much bigger.
If 600 is correct, the distance would be 7,200,000 ft, or 1,363.63 miles

How is all this reconciled?"(freedomforall)

TL:DR version: You can't reconcile it unless you get rid of the variables. You need to know the size of that reed (edit) and how many rods were in that furlong(end edit), otherwise it is completely guessing.

First, all manmade measurements are approximations only, and the +/- is based off the equipment used to measure with. In the case of Rev 21:16, the base unit of measurement was a golden reed.

"15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. "(JST Revelation 21:15)

So that would be how you would know what approximation to use. Now, was that reed equal to a rod?

"1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod; and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. "(Revelation 11:1)

If the rod was used as the base measurement, a rod being approximately 2.96 meters(roman historic),

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_(unit)

that would make the distance 883 miles or so.(if my math is right...which usually isn't...

2.96x40x12000=1420800=882.84419miles Assuming the base measurement of a rod is equivalent to 2.96 meters, and that a rod is a reed...but wait there's more!

In Ezekiel, you have the same thing occurs...measuring reed, angel, city measuring....and you can see what the size of that reed is:

"3 And he brought me thither, and, behold, there was a man whose appearance was like the appearance of brass, with a line of flax in his hand, and a measuring reed; and he stood in the gate.

4 And the man said unto me, Son of man, behold with thine eyes, and hear with thine ears, and set thine heart upon all that I shall show thee; for to the intent that I might show them unto thee are thou brought hither; declare all that thou seest to the house of Israel.

5 And behold a wall on the outside of the house round about, and in the man's hand a measuring reed of six cubits long by the cubit and a handbreadth; so he measured the breadth of the building, one reed; and the height, one reed. "(Ezekiel 40:3-5)

So the reed here was six cubits and a handsbreadth. So what was the size of a cubit? And whose handbreadth are you using as a standard of measurement? Once again, that reed still is the variable, but you can get a bit closer with this but it still is an approximation.

Regardless, it will be a big city in the New Earth, so why the important in focusing on the exact size if you don't mind me asking?

I was taken aback when, after a few posters have spoken of the New Jerusalem being built in Missouri, that I checked out Rev 21:16 and found out just how big the City really is. By either using 600 or 607 or 660 or 883 as a base then multiplying it by 12,000...that is one massive city. Therefore, I conclude/guess that Adam-ondi Ahman could be near the center of the city...when one lays out the square as an overlay over the American Continent, and assuming that Adam-ondi Ahman is to be where Christ comes to reign.
For this reason I was attempting to get an accurate distance for one side of the square spoken of in Rev, so it can be over-layed in a close proximity, assuming Adam-ondi Ahman to be near the center. I think many people would like to know just how big New Jerusalem really is. For many, when they say NJ will be built in Missouri, do they truly fathom that the whole state of Missouri and the surrounding states will comprise NJ?
Another thing to consider is the City of Enoch. Will it come down and resume its location in the Gulf of Mexico, or will it be part of NJ? In other words, if it fills the Gulf of Mexico...the southern segment of the square could be a lot farther south.
I hope I haven't confused everyone. I sometimes can't get my thoughts to be right on paper.

Thanks.

[RaVaN]

You missed an important part of that scripture:

"1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."(JST 21:1)

This city is that which comes down from heaven to the New Earth, after the old earth has passed away. Not the same thing as our world now. If you notice the size of the city in Ezekiel is different from the one on the New Earth in Revelation. The height is what gets me though. Our atmosphere is at best 100 kilometers...which would mean that the city of New Jerusalem is taller in terms of magnitude than our current atmosphere...which suggests if you make a few assumptions you can guess the size of the New Earth approximately.

But BUT, for some reason...it was important for the prophets to outline the size of the city in both Ezekiel and Revelation. I don't believe God does things uselessly, so I suspect these things have an importance for people in the now.

Anyhow, you are trying to apply a New Earth on an old earth...and there are too many variables to even begin to do that.

[freedomforall]

You missed an important part of that scripture:

"1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."(JST 21:1)

This city is that which comes down from heaven to the New Earth, after the old earth has passed away. Not the same thing as our world now. If you notice the size of the city in Ezekiel is different from the one on the New Earth in Revelation. The height is what gets me though. Our atmosphere is at best 100 kilometers...which would mean that the city of New Jerusalem is taller in terms of magnitude than our current atmosphere...which suggests if you make a few assumptions you can guess the size of the New Earth approximately.

But BUT, for some reason...it was important for the prophets to outline the size of the city in both Ezekiel and Revelation. I don't believe God does things uselessly, so I suspect these things have an importance for people in the now.

Anyhow, you are trying to apply a New Earth on an old earth...and there are too many variables to even begin to do that.

I was just thinking. Why would the height have any relevance as far as the land mass used for living on? Makes no sense to me.
We believe that the NJ will be built just prior to the Savior coming to dwell for a thousand years. The earth will not pass away until after the last battle with Gog and Magog during the little season after the Millennium is over.
The New Jerusalem will also be called Zion, and it will comprise people from every nation:

D&C 45:66 (66–71)
66 And it shall be called the New Jerusalem, a land of peace, a city of refuge, a place of safety for the saints of the Most High God;
67 And the glory of the Lord shall be there, and the terror of the Lord also shall be there, insomuch that the wicked will not come unto it, and it shall be called Zion.
68 And it shall come to pass among the wicked, that every man that will not take his sword against his neighbor must needs flee unto Zion for safety.
69 And there shall be gathered unto it out of every nation under heaven; and it shall be the only people that shall not be at war one with another.
70 And it shall be said among the wicked: Let us not go up to battle against Zion, for the inhabitants of Zion are terrible; wherefore we cannot stand.
71 And it shall come to pass that the righteous shall be gathered out from among all nations, and shall come to Zion, singing with songs of everlasting joy.

And it will be referred to as Mount Zion. An interesting point here, too, is that the city will begin at the temple lot in western Missouri, possibly Nauvoo. Se here we have a reference point given:

D&C 84:2, 4 (2–5)
2 Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem.
3 Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased.
4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation.
5 For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house.

Another evidence of Zion being built for the dwelling of the Savior for a thousand years:

Moses 7:62
62 And righteousness will I send down out of heaven; and truth will I send forth out of the earth, to bear testimony of mine Only Begotten; his resurrection from the dead; yea, and also the resurrection of all men; and righteousness and truth will I cause to sweep the earth as with a flood, to gather out mine elect from the four quarters of the earth, unto a place which I shall prepare, an Holy City, that my people may gird up their loins, and be looking forth for the time of my coming; for there shall be my tabernacle, and it shall be called Zion, a New Jerusalem.

You are correct about a renewing, however, there has to be a little season between Christ's reign and the end. But it is not mentioned in this Article of Faith:

A of F 1:10
10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

I guess "the little season" is a different topic to be discussed elsewhere. D&C 43:31, D&C 88:111, D&C 29:22, and Revelation 20:3

You may have seen my envisioned layout for NJ on a different thread.

Along these lines, I don't fully understand why we at present are in the last days...when there will be "a little season" after the reign of Christ, where evil, chaos and war will be present. The only thing I can come up with is this: we are now in the Telestial existence of the earth. When Jesus comes this is when the Terrestrial period begins, then when the earth is renewed, this is when the earth is Celestialized. It's weird that war and chaos would be present in a Terrestrial period, however.

[RaVaN]

I don't disagree about the New Jerusalem on this earth. The New Jerusalem described in Revelation though, is not the same thing as the New Jerusalem in western Missouri...which btw is on the Temple Lot, in Independence. The reason I say this is outlined here:

"22 And I saw no temple therein; for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. "(Revelation 21:22)

New Jerusalem on this earth has the Temple, New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven to the New Earth...has no temple. Different place.

"1 Hearken, O ye elders of my church, saith the Lord your God, who have assembled yourselves together, according to my commandments, in this land, which is the land of Missouri, which is the land which I have appointed and consecrated for the gathering of the saints.

2 Wherefore, this is the land of promise, and the place for the city of Zion.

3 And thus saith the Lord your God, if you will receive wisdom here is wisdom. Behold, the place which is now called Independence is the center place; and a spot for the temple is lying westward, upon a lot which is not far from the courthouse."(D&C 57:1-3)

I think the timeline issue is where you are confusing things here, and you may not see it as such but that is what it is. I look at it like this

Gathering=>Building of Zion/New Jerusalem/Temple=>Christ's return=>Millennial Reign=>Satan released=>Final Judgement=>Earth destroyed by fire=>New Heaven and New Earth=>New Jerusalem descends out of heaven to the New Earth

That is how the Scriptures are laid out and I tend to take Scripture at face value. The problem you have is that LDS doctrine does not agree with Scripture so it has to be fudged here and there, and Scriptures have to be wrested or thrown out to support those doctrines. Anyhow, don't mean to be irritating or patronizing about it, that is just the way I see it as well as why I think we will just disagree on this subject. This is sad to me, and is a continuing issue with me here on this forum since it is one specific doctrine that once approached shuts down any discussion beyond a "I am right" argument. This doctrine obviously is the Doctrine of Exaltation as described by the LDS church. Anyhow, just saddens me about that.

[freedomforall]

I don't disagree about the New Jerusalem on this earth. The New Jerusalem described in Revelation though, is not the same thing as the New Jerusalem in western Missouri...which btw is on the Temple Lot, in Independence. The reason I say this is outlined here:

"22 And I saw no temple therein; for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. "(Revelation 21:22)

New Jerusalem on this earth has the Temple, New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven to the New Earth...has no temple. Different place.

"1 Hearken, O ye elders of my church, saith the Lord your God, who have assembled yourselves together, according to my commandments, in this land, which is the land of Missouri, which is the land which I have appointed and consecrated for the gathering of the saints.

2 Wherefore, this is the land of promise, and the place for the city of Zion.

3 And thus saith the Lord your God, if you will receive wisdom here is wisdom. Behold, the place which is now called Independence is the center place; and a spot for the temple is lying westward, upon a lot which is not far from the courthouse."(D&C 57:1-3)

I think the timeline issue is where you are confusing things here, and you may not see it as such but that is what it is. I look at it like this

Gathering=>Building of Zion/New Jerusalem/Temple=>Christ's return=>Millennial Reign=>Satan released=>Final Judgement=>Earth destroyed by fire=>New Heaven and New Earth=>New Jerusalem descends out of heaven to the New Earth

That is how the Scriptures are laid out and I tend to take Scripture at face value. The problem you have is that LDS doctrine does not agree with Scripture so it has to be fudged here and there, and Scriptures have to be wrested or thrown out to support those doctrines. Anyhow, don't mean to be irritating or patronizing about it, that is just the way I see it as well as why I think we will just disagree on this subject. This is sad to me, and is a continuing issue with me here on this forum since it is one specific doctrine that once approached shuts down any discussion beyond a "I am right" argument. This doctrine obviously is the Doctrine of Exaltation as described by the LDS church. Anyhow, just saddens me about that.

The old Jerusalem where Christ walked, and was eventually destroyed, and is now built up again, and will be destroyed again...is going to be rebuilt.

So we don't go by scripture?
We fudge here and there?
We wrest or throw out scriptures?

Believe want you want...but here is the proof:

There will be TWO cities of Jerusalem, the city of old, and the New Jerusalem. The city of old will be built back up...whereas, the NJ will come down out of heaven and will be on this, The Promised Land, even the USA...where Christ will reign for a Millennium.

Ether 13:2-6,11
2 For behold, they rejected all the words of Ether; for he truly told them of all things, from the beginning of man; and that after the waters had receded from off the face of this land it became a choice land above all other lands, a chosen land of the Lord; wherefore the Lord would have that all men should serve him who dwell upon the face thereof;
3 And that it was the place of the New Jerusalem, which should come down out of heaven, and the holy sanctuary of the Lord.
4 Behold, Ether saw the days of Christ, and he spake concerning a New Jerusalem upon this land.
5 And he spake also concerning the house of Israel, and the Jerusalem from whence Lehi should come—after it should be destroyed it should be built up again, a holy city unto the Lord; wherefore, it could not be a new Jerusalem for it had been in a time of old; but it should be built up again, and become a holy city of the Lord; and it should be built unto the house of Israel—
6 And that a New Jerusalem should be built up upon this land, unto the remnant of the seed of Joseph, for which things there has been a type.
11 And then also cometh the Jerusalem of old; and the inhabitants thereof, blessed are they, for they have been washed in the blood of the Lamb; and they are they who were scattered and gathered in from the four quarters of the earth, and from the north countries, and are partakers of the fulfilling of the covenant which God made with their father, Abraham.


3 Ne. 20:22
22 And behold, this people will I establish in this land, unto the fulfilling of the covenant which I made with your father Jacob; and it shall be a New Jerusalem. And the powers of heaven shall be in the midst of this people; yea, even I will be in the midst of you.

Here, why should I do your due diligence?

Jerusalem, New
mountain of the Lord’s house shall be established:.................................................. Isa. 2:2 . ( 2 Ne. 12:2 . )
O Zion, that bringest good tidings:...................................................................... Isa. 40:9 .
law shall go forth of Zion:................................................................................. Micah 4:2 .
Jerusalem which is above is free:....................................................................... Gal. 4:26 .
name of the city of my God … new Jerusalem:........................................................ Rev. 3:12 .
holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down:............................................................... Rev. 21:2 .
---->it shall be a New Jerusalem:......................................................................... 3 Ne. 20:22 .
that they may build a city … the New Jerusalem:..................................................... 3 Ne. 21:23 .
New Jerusalem, which should come down:............................................................. Ether 13:3 .
---->New Jerusalem … built up upon this land:........................................................ Ether 13:6 .
city of the New Jerusalem shall be prepared:......................................................... D&C 42:9 .
called the New Jerusalem, a land of peace:............................................................ D&C 45:66 .
---->Mount Zion … city of New Jerusalem:.............................................................. D&C 84:2 .
Zion is the city of our God:................................................................................ D&C 97:19 .
Let them … who are among the Gentiles flee unto Zion:............................................ D&C 133:12 .
Zion shall dwell in safety forever:........................................................................ Moses 7:20 .
---->it shall be called Zion, a New Jerusalem:.......................................................... Moses 7:62 .
Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent:............................ A of F 1:10 .

I don't want to be right, just accurate.

[RaVaN]

Except you aren't accurate but I don't think we are arguing the same thing here. What I am saying specifically, is that arguing that the New Jerusalem that is built is not on the same timeline as the one that descends from heaven as described by Revelation. Those two points New Jerusalem being built and New Jerusalem descending out of heaven are two different points in time. Reread those Scriptures, it's pretty clear. It's the timeline we are arguing here, not New Jerusalem.

[freedomforall]

Except you aren't accurate but I don't think we are arguing the same thing here. What I am saying specifically, is that arguing that the New Jerusalem that is built is not on the same timeline as the one that descends from heaven as described by Revelation. Those two points New Jerusalem being built and New Jerusalem descending out of heaven are two different points in time. Reread those Scriptures, it's pretty clear. It's the timeline we are arguing here, not New Jerusalem.

I'm not going to argue, nor debate something that may not occur in my lifetime. All I know is that a New Jerusalem will be built on this Continent where Jesus will dwell for a thousand years and that the Continents will have come together. The earth will leave its Telestial state and enter into its Terrestrial state.
That the Jerusalem of old will become a Holy City unto the Lord. I really don't care if it is next year or three hundred years from now. I believe John saw the New Jerusalem, the same NJ that comes down and is placed in Missouri. That's good enough for me.

Ether 13:3 (1–12)
1 And now I, Moroni, proceed to finish my record concerning the destruction of the people of whom I have been writing.
2 For behold, they rejected all the words of Ether; for he truly told them of all things, from the beginning of man; and that after the waters had receded from off the face of this land it became a choice land above all other lands, a chosen land of the Lord; wherefore the Lord would have that all men should serve him who dwell upon the face thereof;
3 And that it was the place of the New Jerusalem, which should come down out of heaven, and the holy sanctuary of the Lord.
4 Behold, Ether saw the days of Christ, and he spake concerning a New Jerusalem upon this land.
5 And he spake also concerning the house of Israel, and the Jerusalem from whence Lehi should come—after it should be destroyed it should be built up again, a holy city unto the Lord; wherefore, it could not be a new Jerusalem for it had been in a time of old; but it should be built up again, and become a holy city of the Lord; and it should be built unto the house of Israel—
6 And that a New Jerusalem should be built up upon this land, unto the remnant of the seed of Joseph, for which things there has been a type.
7 For as Joseph brought his father down into the land of Egypt, even so he died there; wherefore, the Lord brought a remnant of the seed of Joseph out of the land of Jerusalem, that he might be merciful unto the seed of Joseph that they should perish not, even as he was merciful unto the father of Joseph that he should perish not.
8 Wherefore, the remnant of the house of Joseph shall be built upon this land; and it shall be a land of their inheritance; and they shall build up a holy city unto the Lord, like unto the Jerusalem of old; and they shall no more be confounded, until the end come when the earth shall pass away.
9 And there shall be a new heaven and a new earth; and they shall be like unto the old save the old have passed away, and all things have become new.
10 And then cometh the New Jerusalem; and blessed are they who dwell therein, for it is they whose garments are white through the blood of the Lamb; and they are they who are numbered among the remnant of the seed of Joseph, who were of the house of Israel.
11 And then also cometh the Jerusalem of old; and the inhabitants thereof, blessed are they, for they have been washed in the blood of the Lamb; and they are they who were scattered and gathered in from the four quarters of the earth, and from the north countries, and are partakers of the fulfilling of the covenant which God made with their father, Abraham.
12 And when these things come, bringeth to pass the scripture which saith, there are they who were first, who shall be last; and there are they who were last, who shall be first.

D&C 84:2 (2–4)
2 Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem.
3 Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased.
4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation.

Isaiah 4:3,4
3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem: Sounds to me like the two Jerusalem's spoken of here are simultaneous.
4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

What happens after the Millennium is a different matter because Satan will be loosed for a little season and then there will be a massive battle, Gog and Magog, afterwhich, the earth will go through another change and enter into its Celestial state.

Every little detail and a perfect timeline is not pertinent to my salvation and is not worth debating. If you believe differently, that is wonderful. We'll both find out when the time comes which is way beyond our lifetime. Well, perhaps mine anyway.

I don't understand why people get all worked up over something they will not even see in the flesh. We have much more pressing issues, like our freedom and liberty being stripped away, our Constitution being destroyed. The very Constitution that Christ will have in force when He reigns. The Mormon's do not have exclusive rights to the Millennium. So let's concentrate on what really matters for today.

[RaVaN]

Every Scripture you posted confirms what I said minus your A of F. That being said, it probably is better we leave off on talking about this since we have both reached a point of talking past each other rather than to each other, which is sad and we should be better than that.

And you are right, it is hard to discuss something that may or may not happen in our lifetimes, but there is an importance there or it wouldn't have been written for us. That doesn't mean every detail is pertinent to our Salvation, but that each detail is important. To use an example:

"22 And I saw no temple therein; for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it."(Revelation 21:22)

Throughout Revelation, the "One Personage God Theory" is shown false categorically, but this Scripture and well as chapter 22 is the final nail in the coffin. It confirms the Lectures of Faith as true and the belief of the Restoration. It is one simple line, but elegant. The Scriptures are full of this.

The problem with false doctrine, is that many times it begins with a misinterpretation of a single word, verse, or even punctuation. It leads to a rejection of what the Scriptures lay out plainly. Now, not knowing what X scripture means may or may not be important to your Salvation(especially if you haven't read it), but taking a stance on something that is a false stance is important to your salvation. I am speaking in generalities here and not to anyone in specific, since I run afoul of this myself at times. It generally is what I want to believe versus what is said plainly.

Anyhow, my apologies.

[bobhenstra]

Heck, I've enjoyed this conversation! Only thing I would press on is this earth never ends, just the Telestial and Terrestrial aspects of it pass away. And I would emphasize the term "Pass away" as in change, and then cease to exist in its former configuration.

Years ago I knew an old farmer who was a very nice guy, although a bit eccentric. He insisted on using the terms "rod" and furlongs, considered them "holy terms of measurement. He also considered the dove a holy bird, and I agreed, I also thought dove tasted great.

Also, the war between Gog and Magog is the continuation of the war in Heaven, in other words a war of testimony (missionary work). Not a war with weapons. The war of Armageddon is a different earlier war that will involve weapons, part of the cleansing.

My opinion!

Bob

[freedomforall]

Heck, I've enjoyed this conversation! Only thing I would press on is this earth never ends, just the Telestial and Terrestrial aspects of it pass away. And I would emphasize the term "Pass away" as in change, and then cease to exist in its former configuration.

Years ago I knew an old farmer who was a very nice guy, although a bit eccentric. He insisted on using the terms "rod" and furlongs, considered them "holy terms of measurement. He also considered the dove a holy bird, and I agreed, I also thought dove tasted great.

Also, the war between Gog and Magog is the continuation of the war in Heaven, in other words a war of testimony (missionary work). Not a war with weapons. The war of Armageddon is a different earlier war that will involve weapons, part of the cleansing.

My opinion!

Bob

Revelation 20:7-9
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/gog.p ... g&letter=g" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Another battle, called the battle of Gog and Magog, will occur at the end of the Millennium (Rev. 20:7–9; D&C 88:111–116).
110 And so on, until the seventh angel shall sound his trump; and he shall stand forth upon the land and upon the sea, and swear in the name of him who sitteth upon the throne, that there shall be time no longer; and Satan shall be bound, that old serpent, who is called the devil, and shall not be loosed for the space of a thousand years.
111 And then he (Satan) shall be loosed for a little season, that he may gather together his armies.
112 And Michael, the seventh angel, even the archangel, shall gather together his armies, even the hosts of heaven.
113 And the devil shall gather together his armies; even the hosts of hell, and shall come up to battle against Michael and his armies.
114 And then cometh the battle of the great God; and the devil and his armies shall be cast away into their own place, that they shall not have power over the saints any more at all.
115 For Michael shall fight their battles, and shall overcome him who seeketh the throne of him who sitteth upon the throne, even the Lamb.
116 This is the glory of God, and the sanctified; and they shall not any more see death.

After the great battle of Gog and Magog comes a renewing of all things.
D&C 29:22-25
22 And again, verily, verily, I say unto you that when the thousand years are ended, and men again begin to deny their God, then will I spare the earth but for a little season;
23 And the aend shall come, and the heaven and the earth shall be consumed and pass away, and there shall be a new heaven and a new earth.
24 For all old things shall pass away, and all things shall become new, even the heaven and the earth, and all the fulness thereof, both men and beasts, the fowls of the air, and the fishes of the sea;
25 And not one hair, neither mote, shall be lost, for it is the workmanship of mine hand.

[freedomforall]

Does anyone think the Lord does not express fury?

From Ezekiel 38
The battle of Gog, from the land of Magog, against Israel will usher in the Second Coming—The Lord will come amid war and pestilence, and all men will shake at His presence.

18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord God, that my fury shall come up in my face.
19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord God: every man’s sword shall be against his brother.
22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the Lord.

[RaVaN]

@bobhenstra

Heck, I've enjoyed this conversation! Only thing I would press on is this earth never ends, just the Telestial and Terrestrial aspects of it pass away. And I would emphasize the term "Pass away" as in change, and then cease to exist in its former configuration.

A traveler lost his way in the backwoods country. While wondering which path to take, he heard the breaking of twigs in the underbrush, and presently there emerged an overgrown boy with a rifle on his arm. By way of opening conversation, the traveler remarked, "That's a good-looking gun you have."
"Yes," replied the youth, "this was grandpap's gun. He carried it through the Revolutionary War."
Surprised by this statement, the traveler looked at the gun more closely. "Why , the barrel," he said, "seems shorter that those of the Revolutionary period."
"Yes," said the boy, "Pap had a new barrel put on."
The traveler continued his examination of the gun. "That looks like a new stock," he observed.
"Yes," said the boy, "Pap had that put on."
"The lock can't be very old either," observed the traveler.
"Pap had that put on too," said the boy.
"Then you must have a new gun."

"No," said the boy, "it's the same old gun grandpap carried through the Revolutionary war.

There's a reason it says "New heaven and new earth." JST 2 Peter 3:10-13:

"10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in the which the heavens shall shake, and the earth also shall tremble, and the mountains shall melt, and pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall be filled with fervent heat; the earth also shall be filled, and the corruptible works which are therein shall be burned up.

11 If then all these things shall be destroyed, what manner of persons ought ye to be in holy conduct and godliness,

12 Looking unto, and preparing for the day of the coming of the Lord wherein the corruptible things of the heavens being on fire, shall be dissolved, and the mountains shall melt with fervent heat?"

13 Nevertheless, if we shall endure, we shall be kept according to his promise. And we look for a new heavens, and a new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness.

The other argument I would pose to you and freedomforall based on what is said in D&C 29:22-25 is this:

If you take a bullet fire it, retrieve the lead, recast it, reload it in the same casing. Is it the same bullet? You can call it a "renewal", but I would consider it a new bullet. It may be using most of the same parts, but it has be remade with a new energy source. This is similar to view and why I say it is a New Heaven and a New Earth. Even if it uses the same matter to "renew" everything, it is still new. I think this is a difference in viewpoint and definition than being in disagreement.

Years ago I knew an old farmer who was a very nice guy, although a bit eccentric. He insisted on using the terms "rod" and furlongs, considered them "holy terms of measurement. He also considered the dove a holy bird, and I agreed, I also thought dove tasted great.

I would imagine so since those forms of measurement were important to understand for land reasons...Same reason I know what a rod or a chain is. Never had dove, but I suppose if you are eating it...it would be a holey bird(had to say it).

Also, the war between Gog and Magog is the continuation of the war in Heaven, in other words a war of testimony (missionary work). Not a war with weapons. The war of Armageddon is a different earlier war that will involve weapons, part of the cleansing.

That is interesting but I think only half true. It's a question I have pondered for years. How do you have a war in heaven? You don't have physical bodies that can be killed. When you look into the Scriptures, what you find is like you said, "testimony" but you also have binding and casting out/down, yet they had "swords". Everything tends to suggest that a spirit is unkillable. At least one weapon will be used however.

"8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle; the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city; and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."(JST 20:8-9)

That is a weapon in my book.

And these are my opinions as well here.

[bobhenstra]

@bobhenstra

Heck, I've enjoyed this conversation! Only thing I would press on is this earth never ends, just the Telestial and Terrestrial aspects of it pass away. And I would emphasize the term "Pass away" as in change, and then cease to exist in its former configuration.

Years ago I knew an old farmer who was a very nice guy, although a bit eccentric. He insisted on using the terms "rod" and furlongs, considered them "holy terms of measurement. He also considered the dove a holy bird, and I agreed, I also thought dove tasted great.

I would imagine so since those forms of measurement were important to understand for land reasons...Same reason I know what a rod or a chain is. Never had dove, but I suppose if you are eating it...it would be a holey bird(had to say it).

Also, the war between Gog and Magog is the continuation of the war in Heaven, in other words a war of testimony (missionary work). Not a war with weapons. The war of Armageddon is a different earlier war that will involve weapons, part of the cleansing.

That is interesting but I think only half true. It's a question I have pondered for years. How do you have a war in heaven? You don't have physical bodies that can be killed. When you look into the Scriptures, what you find is like you said, "testimony" but you also have binding and casting out/down, yet they had "swords". Everything tends to suggest that a spirit is unkillable. At least one weapon will be used however.

"8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle; the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city; and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."(JST 20:8-9)

That is a weapon in my book.

And these are my opinions as well here.

There are two types of fire that need to be considered here, fire as we know it, and fire of the Holy Ghost. The fire of the Holy Ghost cleanses and destroys false ideas, converts the spiritual children of the Most High who were once wicked, examples; Paul, Alma the Younger, The People of Ammon----

Those whom the scripture suggest are cast out at the end of the millennium are cast into Spirit Prison where teaching continues according to the agency of those being taught, however long it takes----"the prisoners shall be freed" because of conversion!" and Spirit prison then serves no further purpose and will cease to exist.

Again, My opinion!
Bob

[freedomforall]

@bobhenstra

Heck, I've enjoyed this conversation! Only thing I would press on is this earth never ends, just the Telestial and Terrestrial aspects of it pass away. And I would emphasize the term "Pass away" as in change, and then cease to exist in its former configuration.

A traveler lost his way in the backwoods country. While wondering which path to take, he heard the breaking of twigs in the underbrush, and presently there emerged an overgrown boy with a rifle on his arm. By way of opening conversation, the traveler remarked, "That's a good-looking gun you have."
"Yes," replied the youth, "this was grandpap's gun. He carried it through the Revolutionary War."
Surprised by this statement, the traveler looked at the gun more closely. "Why , the barrel," he said, "seems shorter that those of the Revolutionary period."
"Yes," said the boy, "Pap had a new barrel put on."
The traveler continued his examination of the gun. "That looks like a new stock," he observed.
"Yes," said the boy, "Pap had that put on."
"The lock can't be very old either," observed the traveler.
"Pap had that put on too," said the boy.
"Then you must have a new gun."

"No," said the boy, "it's the same old gun grandpap carried through the Revolutionary war.

There's a reason it says "New heaven and new earth." JST 2 Peter 3:10-13:

"10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in the which the heavens shall shake, and the earth also shall tremble, and the mountains shall melt, and pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall be filled with fervent heat; the earth also shall be filled, and the corruptible works which are therein shall be burned up.

11 If then all these things shall be destroyed, what manner of persons ought ye to be in holy conduct and godliness,

12 Looking unto, and preparing for the day of the coming of the Lord wherein the corruptible things of the heavens being on fire, shall be dissolved, and the mountains shall melt with fervent heat?"

13 Nevertheless, if we shall endure, we shall be kept according to his promise. And we look for a new heavens, and a new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness.

The other argument I would pose to you and freedomforall based on what is said in D&C 29:22-25 is this:

If you take a bullet fire it, retrieve the lead, recast it, reload it in the same casing. Is it the same bullet? You can call it a "renewal", but I would consider it a new bullet. It may be using most of the same parts, but it has be remade with a new energy source. This is similar to view and why I say it is a New Heaven and a New Earth. Even if it uses the same matter to "renew" everything, it is still new. I think this is a difference in viewpoint and definition than being in disagreement. Actually, when one thinks about it, there will be two renewings, (1) after the calamities and the cleansing, the earthquakes and volcanoes, etc. then the earth will be renewed so Christ can dwell here. and (2) at the very end after the "little season" has expired and the earth is burned and then becomes Celestial. It may be the same dirt ball, but will be completely renewed as per: I create a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered: Isa. 65:17; ( Rev. 21:1; A of F 1:10; ) So, it isn't the same casing, but a new one, new powder and a new bullet.

Years ago I knew an old farmer who was a very nice guy, although a bit eccentric. He insisted on using the terms "rod" and furlongs, considered them "holy terms of measurement. He also considered the dove a holy bird, and I agreed, I also thought dove tasted great.

I would imagine so since those forms of measurement were important to understand for land reasons...Same reason I know what a rod or a chain is. Never had dove, but I suppose if you are eating it...it would be a holey bird(had to say it).

Also, the war between Gog and Magog is the continuation of the war in Heaven, in other words a war of testimony (missionary work). Not a war with weapons. The war of Armageddon is a different earlier war that will involve weapons, part of the cleansing.

That is interesting but I think only half true. It's a question I have pondered for years. How do you have a war in heaven? You don't have physical bodies that can be killed. When you look into the Scriptures, what you find is like you said, "testimony" but you also have binding and casting out/down, yet they had "swords". Everything tends to suggest that a spirit is unkillable. At least one weapon will be used however.

"8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle; the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city; and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."(JST 20:8-9)

That is a weapon in my book.

And these are my opinions as well here.

[RaVaN]

There are two types of fire that need to be considered here, fire as we know it, and fire of the Holy Ghost. The fire of the Holy Ghost cleanses and destroys false ideas, converts the spiritual children of the Most High who were once wicked, examples; Paul, Alma the Younger, The People of Ammon----(bobhenstra)

I think this is really a semantics argument over what we mean by weapon.

Those whom the scripture suggest are cast out at the end of the millennium are cast into Spirit Prison where teaching continues according to the agency of those being taught, however long it takes----"the prisoners shall be freed" because of conversion!" and Spirit prison then serves no further purpose and will cease to exist.(bobhenstra)

I disagree with this pretty vehemently(obviously). What you have in my opinion is each person getting that which they have chosen. This is what the battle here on earth is all about, God seeking people to chose him and Lucifer seeking to get people to choose him. The end result is those that chose Lucifer get cut off from the presence of God and those that chose God get eternal life living in the presence of God.

[bobhenstra]

Well, all I can say is one of us is going to be surprised! I look at salvation like this; A perfect God can only make a perfect plan, and perfection cannot fail.

I believe my perfect Mother in Heaven would tell my perfect Father in Heaven; "Look buster, if you can't bring all of my children back to me, step aside and I'll do it!

"When Mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy!"

My opinion

Bob

[freedomforall]

Well, all I can say is one of us is going to be surprised! I look at salvation like this; A perfect God can only make a perfect plan, and perfection cannot fail.

I believe my perfect Mother in Heaven would tell my perfect Father in Heaven; "Look buster, if you can't bring all of my children back to me, step aside and I'll do it!

"When Mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy!"

My opinion

Bob

Not to mention that she would position herself to be kicked out with the rest of the third of hosts for defiance and rebellion. JMO. And maybe there would no longer be any Doves either because some earthling ate them all. :-B

[bobhenstra]

Naw, my Father in Heaven loves my Mother in Heaven, and ALL their children! Can't speak for yours--------

[RaVaN]

Well, all I can say is one of us is going to be surprised! I look at salvation like this; A perfect God can only make a perfect plan, and perfection cannot fail.

I believe my perfect Mother in Heaven would tell my perfect Father in Heaven; "Look buster, if you can't bring all of my children back to me, step aside and I'll do it!

"When Mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy!"

My opinion

Bob

I look at it differently. God does not force us to love him, he wants us to love him by our own choice. He wants us to be with him by our own choice. That is what the final separation is, those who chose to love God and those that chose to reject him. He gives each one what they desire, even though he knows how miserable they will be without him. He wants to dwell with those who love him and chose to be with him.

[bobhenstra]

Well, all I can say is one of us is going to be surprised! I look at salvation like this; A perfect God can only make a perfect plan, and perfection cannot fail.

I believe my perfect Mother in Heaven would tell my perfect Father in Heaven; "Look buster, if you can't bring all of my children back to me, step aside and I'll do it!

"When Mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy!"

My opinion

Bob

I look at it differently. God does not force us to love him, he wants us to love him by our own choice. He wants us to be with him by our own choice. That is what the final separation is, those who chose to love God and those that chose to reject him. He gives each one what they desire, even though he knows how miserable they will be without him. He wants to dwell with those who love him and chose to be with him.

I never said God forces anything on any of his children, agency never ceases, agency is never taken from a child of God. What I am saying is as the Children of God repent they will return to our Heavenly Father and he will accept them back (D&C 138:58)

Brother Brigham said very clearly said he didn't care if it took 10,000 years. President Kimball added 1 million years. They said and I say eventually all of Gods children will repent! They are "MY" brothers and sisters, I will be there to help them, I will not desert them!

My opinion!

Bob

[RaVaN]

It's not a question of you deserting them, but rather they deserting you.

But we are wandering into that bit of LDS theology that I disagree with.