Celibacy in the church?

[skmo]

...Sometimes priests have had relations with nuns (& sadly often kept it hidden & forced abortions as well)...

When I was on my mission, a man was recently arrived home from his mission in Peru. He said one of the big things that happened down there at the time was the collapse of hidden underground tunnels connecting a convent and a monastery. What really got the locals buzzing was the discovery of multiple aborted fetuses.

[Fiannan]

I know only one woman who is asexual (you mean chaste), and even she says she may change her mind someday. All the other women I know are just as sexual as the men, many more open about it than most males I know.

You must have an awful lot of conversations about sex with a lot of women other than your wife. What does your wife think about her husband talking with so many other women about intimate details of their sex lives? Is your wife aware that you talk about sex with "all the women you know"?

You equate asexuality with chastity but that is wrong. Asexuality refers to a person who is not attracted to any gender in any sexual way. About 1% of the adult population claims to be asexual.

As for any discussions on human sexuality I might have with others my wife is fully aware of all.

[A Random Phrase]

I know only one woman who is asexual (you mean chaste), and even she says she may change her mind someday. All the other women I know are just as sexual as the men, many more open about it than most males I know.

You must have an awful lot of conversations about sex with a lot of women other than your wife. What does your wife think about her husband talking with so many other women about intimate details of their sex lives? Is your wife aware that you talk about sex with "all the women you know"?

You equate asexuality with chastity but that is wrong. Asexuality refers to a person who is not attracted to any gender in any sexual way. About 1% of the adult population claims to be asexual.

As for any discussions on human sexuality I might have with others my wife is fully aware of all.

What is asexuality - link


.

[Melissa]

I know only one woman who is asexual (you mean chaste), and even she says she may change her mind someday. All the other women I know are just as sexual as the men, many more open about it than most males I know.

You must have an awful lot of conversations about sex with a lot of women other than your wife. What does your wife think about her husband talking with so many other women about intimate details of their sex lives? Is your wife aware that you talk about sex with "all the women you know"?

You equate asexuality with chastity but that is wrong. Asexuality refers to a person who is not attracted to any gender in any sexual way. About 1% of the adult population claims to be asexual.

As for any discussions on human sexuality I might have with others my wife is fully aware of all.

I wish people would have some respect when it comes to sexuality. When did it become correct to discuss with others, outside of marriage, ours or their sex life to such degrees? I know that me and my husband haven't had sex conversations with other people or other couples. Where did modesty and discretion go?

All this open sexual talk is what has our nation over sexed and our kids messed up. With all this gay stuff taking over and porn destroying our good people, sexual inuindos in children's shows, etc it has everyone with sex on the brain instead of more important things. There is a proper place and time to explore and experience and enjoy all of sexuality and it should be done when those times present itself but when it is not the right time it should be placed lower on the list of our thoughts so that we can actually be productive and a purer people who fear and serve God and our fellow man.

Husbands and wives should keep their sex life to themselves. And non married people really shouldn't be discussing their virginity etc. with a married couple. Sex is powerful and attractive and we should be careful not to flirt with it outside of the correct time and place. I have no need to know about others sexuality and frankly would be uncomfortable if they told me. All I know is that I have mine and you have yours and unless there is a problem that needs addressing then please keep it to your self.

I don't want my husband to hear another woman talk about her sexuality because he just might view her in that light and I don't want to hear a man talk about his because I just might view him in that light, it really is a stupid thing to flirt with. Most affairs happen with friends!

Anyway, this is my take. I am not a person who thinks sex is bad or evil but we know that it is immediately bad and evil when viewed in the wrong light and expressed at the wrong time.

[A Random Phrase]

Amen, Melissa.

[Fiannan]

What is asexuality - link

That link sums it up nicely.

Just to make things more complicated though there are situations like this Mormon gal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_QAnFll-fQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[jo1952]

This thread reminds me of one of my favorite Catholic stories:

A monk in a monastery was busily engaged copying old manuscripts, and one day he realized that they were not copying originals, but copying copies of copies. This troubled him, and so he went to visit the Abbot of the Monastery. He discussed this problem with the Abbot and relayed his concern that if one mistake was made in a manuscript; that error would carry down into all future copies of the manuscripts. The Abbot agreed with him that this was cause for concern, and told the young man he would look at some of the older manuscripts to see if errors had occurred.

Not long after this conversation, the young Monk went in to see the Abbot, and found him to be distraught and nearly in tears. The monk asked the Abbot what was wrong that he should be so troubled. The elderly Abbot, staring incredulously at his manuscript, and shaking his head, responded. "The word was 'CELEBRATE!'"

+1 !!

jo

[skmo]

...All this open sexual talk is what has our nation over sexed and our kids messed up...

And keeping it pent up with NO discussion of it other than "it's bad" gives generations of people who can't deal with the God given sexual urges in a proper way when marriage comes along because they have different views of sex to the point that sometimes it's incompatible and ends in divorce, or at least suffering marriages.

I was a Family Relations teacher at a young married ward at Ricks College. The weeks that I did lessons about intimacy, my class was overflowing and I had people asking both me and my wife when I'd get to that lesson again. Men and women both. I was open, frank, and plain but never did I cross over into crude. That carried over into some of my wards in Utah, and I had people come to me about this because I was someone not afraid to discuss things others were too timid to deal with. In other areas of my life I went way over the line with what was appropriate, I know this. However, in the context of a sunday school teacher or even just a member approached for guidance gleaned from my time in that calling I never strayed into bad territory.

The need for LDS couples to have some clear discussion about sexuality in the context of its appropriate use in marriage is clear to me. It's not something to casually chat about anywhere anytime, but since it's one of the leading causes of divorce, I'd say it's needed.

[shestalou]

I agree there is to much focus on sexuality that is destroying the nation that is why I did not understand what celibacy in the catholic church had to do with a married couple with marital problems, I think they are not related at all, Celibacy to me is an doctrinal problem in the catholic religion. I have heard that same story skmo was talking about in South America and the problems with Priests and young boys, celibacy doesnt work but a married couple with marital issues can be fixed with the right councilor and is a marital problem between husband and wife.

[jo1952]

...All this open sexual talk is what has our nation over sexed and our kids messed up...

And keeping it pent up with NO discussion of it other than "it's bad" gives generations of people who can't deal with the God given sexual urges in a proper way when marriage comes along because they have different views of sex to the point that sometimes it's incompatible and ends in divorce, or at least suffering marriages.

I was a Family Relations teacher at a young married ward at Ricks College. The weeks that I did lessons about intimacy, my class was overflowing and I had people asking both me and my wife when I'd get to that lesson again. Men and women both. I was open, frank, and plain but never did I cross over into crude. That carried over into some of my wards in Utah, and I had people come to me about this because I was someone not afraid to discuss things others were too timid to deal with. In other areas of my life I went way over the line with what was appropriate, I know this. However, in the context of a sunday school teacher or even just a member approached for guidance gleaned from my time in that calling I never strayed into bad territory.

The need for LDS couples to have some clear discussion about sexuality in the context of its appropriate use in marriage is clear to me. It's not something to casually chat about anywhere anytime, but since it's one of the leading causes of divorce, I'd say it's needed.

+1

jo

[Melissa]

...All this open sexual talk is what has our nation over sexed and our kids messed up...

And keeping it pent up with NO discussion of it other than "it's bad" gives generations of people who can't deal with the God given sexual urges in a proper way when marriage comes along because they have different views of sex to the point that sometimes it's incompatible and ends in divorce, or at least suffering marriages.

I was a Family Relations teacher at a young married ward at Ricks College. The weeks that I did lessons about intimacy, my class was overflowing and I had people asking both me and my wife when I'd get to that lesson again. Men and women both. I was open, frank, and plain but never did I cross over into crude. That carried over into some of my wards in Utah, and I had people come to me about this because I was someone not afraid to discuss things others were too timid to deal with. In other areas of my life I went way over the line with what was appropriate, I know this. However, in the context of a sunday school teacher or even just a member approached for guidance gleaned from my time in that calling I never strayed into bad territory.

The need for LDS couples to have some clear discussion about sexuality in the context of its appropriate use in marriage is clear to me. It's not something to casually chat about anywhere anytime, but since it's one of the leading causes of divorce, I'd say it's needed.

It is not about being bad or good, it is about being appropriate and treating it with respect.
Why cant a couple find out for themselves what is right for their marriage without having something "pent" up that they need to discuss with other couples? I dont disagree with general instruction of intimacy within a marriage class but really should we be talking about such personal feelings and desires about sex at church? I have never had to go to anyone or see a bishop or take a church class to figure out how to be with my husband and what is ok and not ok and such and such. We take what we know from the guidlines we have, we take the marriage and family relations class, get a book whatever and then we govern ourselves accordingly.

If it is general intimacy, love, compassion whatever else then that is fine in the proper context as soon as it talks about sex, how to, how often, is it good, etc then it is entering dangerous territory- if it is not a conversation with just your spouse.

I agree with you that many people struggle with intimacy and romance because most of us do not grow and change with our marriage. Lust is young love and immature love, romance and intimacy is mature love. We all have to make this painful transition in our marriage and those who struggle with it would be attending these classes trying to figure out how to be romantic and intimate because lust wore off but they didnt take it upon themselves to mature and now they are having issues (i know that is a bold statement and doesnt represent everyone in those classes).

I do not live in Utah and I come from a very "healthy" family where we were not told these things are evil. We treated it with respect and discretion. I feel sorry that there are people out there who need so much instruction for something that is so natural - we all can do it. If a husband has a wife who thinks sex is evil then he has the responsibility to educate her not betray her. If a man is having problems in his sex life because of his wife, then he should reevaluate how he is portraying sex.
A man is not powerless in this situation, if he finds himself in it. Maybe she is not attracted to him? Maybe she hasn't discovered the power her body has in intimacy connection with her husband. If she was raised to believe this way about sex, then she was probably raised with the statement that if he is a worthy priesthood holder then you must agree to marry him. So she is not really in love with him but what he represents, and is living a marriage of "duty". I really have no idea just throwing some things out there.

[Fiannan]

Melissa, I can see your point but what of the dangers of people incorporating the false facades we present as a people? Is there a danger of believing in the personas we promote to each other?
Example, many LDS leaders have addressed the problem with perfectionism. I can’t remember who the speaker was in the last conference who was talking about a woman being impressed that her employer was willing to let the house go as long as the children were prioritized. I think too often LDS people try to pretend they are those cardboard cutouts in Church that actually do not exist. The danger is that if we incorporate those images into our expectations towards ourselves and our spouse we will only reap unhappiness.
We are complex biological, spiritual and psychological beings. We are not white shirts, dress shoes and long dresses. Yet if people feel they must repress their desires with their husband/wife because they cannot come out and express themselves die to guilt from childhood or misinterpreting messages from leaders then where will they get the information to relax and get past the caricature?
You speak of lust as if it is a bad thing. Another word for lust is infatuation – a necessary component for romantic love to develop. Can it be recaptured? Absolutely! To get those hormonal boosts couples can experiment with new things, new fantasies and even take vacations that are unique in their collective memories – like hiking in Tibet. Associate new things with your relationship and you can regain the sparks. And if a couple seek to try new things together that they think might freak out the local Relief Society president why not? Chances are whatever you and your husband/wife come up with there are people in your ward doing the same thing, including the RS Pres.
I guess the answer is not to treat sex as some sort of dirty thing. Does that mean we set up a blog and tell everyone what we do? Absolutely not. Does it mean we dare not mention the unspeakable subject? Again, absolutely not. In the past I have overheard LDS women comparing the size of their husband’s organ and I have to admit that is a bit overboard. Yet discussing human sexuality seems not only okay, but healthy; as long as it is not invasive and exibitionistic.

[Thinker]

...Sometimes priests have had relations with nuns (& sadly often kept it hidden & forced abortions as well)...

When I was on my mission, a man was recently arrived home from his mission in Peru. He said one of the big things that happened down there at the time was the collapse of hidden underground tunnels connecting a convent and a monastery. What really got the locals buzzing was the discovery of multiple aborted fetuses.

It's so sad.
But this is probably the exception, rather than the rule - at least I'd hope so.

[Thinker]

I agree there is to much focus on sexuality that is destroying the nation that is why I did not understand what celibacy in the catholic church had to do with a married couple with marital problems, I think they are not related at all, Celibacy to me is an doctrinal problem in the catholic religion. I have heard that same story skmo was talking about in South America and the problems with Priests and young boys, celibacy doesnt work but a married couple with marital issues can be fixed with the right councilor and is a marital problem between husband and wife.

There are similarities, but not exact.
Like the Catholic church, our doctrine includes the importance of celibacy - no sexual relations before marriage or else it is shameful. (Switching paradigmes may be difficult for some once they get married.)
Unlike the Catholic church, we place high importance on family & particularly marriage - for everyone, including church leaders.

Sometimes negative behavior comes from celibacy, especially in men.
Yet, often men are fine - like on missions, although they tend to be more than ready to NOT be celibate when released.
Maybe it depends on one's expectations - intention & character.

I think both husbands and wives need to find ways to love each other better.
Also, it's important to correct distorted views of sex, so that one has a healthier view of it.

[skmo]

Why cant a couple find out for themselves what is right for their marriage without having something "pent" up that they need to discuss with other couples? We take what we know from the guidlines we have, we take the marriage and family relations class, get a book whatever and then we govern ourselves accordingly....

Because the intensity of this subject is such that if there is damage, it can be too great to overcome without serious effort. We’re really not in disagreement here, I just have had some experience that puts me outside the norm of this topic. I would agree that sex isn’t something to be just casually tossed about. However, there are exceptions. I have a great deal of ability in helping others see through relationship difficulties. I believe I would have made an excellent therapist or counselor, but I also knew that with my tendency to be weak with regard to matters of chastity, I should not place myself in a position to have to deal with it on a regular basis. However, I still seem to be the one people come to for relationship advice. I take after my mom in this.

I dont disagree with general instruction of intimacy within a marriage class but really should we be talking about such personal feelings and desires about sex at church?

Sure. We talk about why sex is bad, why not talk about why sex is good? Why just focus on the negative aspects of it? It’s like the Word of Wisdom. We focus all of our efforts on what we shouldn’t do, when in fact, those verses take up only 5 out of the 21 verses of the whole section. I’m not talking about a “how to” manual in Sunday School, and to be honest, my intimacy discussions in FR classes were more than enough to get passion going, but I rarely see a class like that outside of a Young Singles situation. That’s a shame, because for a couple of young, newly married people there is much less need to have a desire to understand intimacy. In a couple married for 20 years, I believe it to be much more necessary.

I have never had to go to anyone or see a bishop or take a church class to figure out how to be with my husband and what is ok and not ok and such and such.

And I wish it was like that for more couples. Unfortunately, that’s often not the case.

If a husband has a wife who thinks sex is evil then he has the responsibility to educate her not betray her. If a man is having problems in his sex life because of his wife, then he should reevaluate how he is portraying sex.
A man is not powerless in this situation, if he finds himself in it...

There are cases where this is not an option because one partner or the other refuses. Case in point: I know a couple where the wife has steadfastly refused sex for over ten years. One day, the husband was watching her bend over in her pajamas while she was picking something up off the floor, and he looked down her top. She immediately stood up and yelled at him for being a dirty old man for looking at his own wife’s nakedness. When this man came to me and a friend who is a bishop (not the husband’s bishop) for advice, we recommended the books “And They Were Not Ashamed” by Sr. Laura Brotherson and “The Purity and the Passion” by Wendy Watson. When he recommended either book to his wife, he again got yelled at because he only wanted her to read those books so he could convince her to let him “work off his lustful desires” on her. I recognize that this is a woman in serious need of professional counseling (which she’s never going to get) but it’s not an isolated case. Their marriage continues along, and the husband, now in his 18th year of enforced celibacy honors his marriage through a sense of duty rather than desire. The woman is a prominent member of ward leadership offices because of her “holy” nature. It’s a sad case of satan using something beautiful to destroy love. It’s sad. I would hope that appropriate discussions in church meetings could help turn some of this tide.

[Melissa]

Oh man, that poor husband! I am almost certain that she has problems surrounding sex and not sex itself? Maybe? Anyway, if this is actually common I am really suprised. So beyond dysfunctional. How did he even continue courting her? You really should be more careful in whom you marry I guess.

In this womans case, I dont imagine hearing possitives about sexuality in any church setting would help her. I really like that book by wendy watson that you mentioned.

If she understood and loved her hsband and cared about her marriage as much as she does her church responsibilities then she would have a desire to please her husband. And should see that her role in marriage is a necessary role full of power that only women can bring. I thought women were instilled with a desire to please their husband, I mean, for the life of me I cannot shake my desire to please serve and adore my husband - even when he falls far short of meeting my needs. I admit, I am young and maybe naive to all the different dynamics that can happen in marriages.

Marriage is so crucial and important and our married relationship and actions are symbolic of the relationship in Godhood.
If we believe man represents the spirit and woman represents the physical then unity of man and woman create a soul. A soul is living and needs care and nourishing.
A soul is created within marriage and represents the unity and oneness that makes up God, you know Elohim is plural!

[skmo]

She's a loving and holy woman, but I beleive there was abuse at a very young age base on discussions with her sisters. Three sisters, I believe all of them suffered abuse from a neighbor. One got over it to be emotionally healthy. Two did not, at least not completely. The woman I speak of turned herself into the Lord, which is good, but she still never managed to heal that one glaring wound. She's got a lot going for her, but she's hurt her husband a lot in the process. He has lived with it because he's very devoted to God, and he has taken his oaths seriously. It doesn't change the neglect and pain their marriage has suffered. The family has 4 children, had one born stillborn, and he's indicated that the total number of times he's had intimate relations barely gets over 20.

Yes, Wendy's book is great. If you ever meet her, you'll know why she can have written something like this even as a single woman. She and my wife are friends, and I have to say she has an impressive bearing about her.

I would like to see the church develop more resources for families to find success, the Family Relations class is a great way. It just doesn't get used well enough or often enough from what I've seen.

[djinwa]

Case in point: I know a couple where the wife has steadfastly refused sex for over ten years. One day, the husband was watching her bend over in her pajamas while she was picking something up off the floor, and he looked down her top. She immediately stood up and yelled at him for being a dirty old man for looking at his own wife’s nakedness. When this man came to me and a friend who is a bishop (not the husband’s bishop) for advice, we recommended the books “And They Were Not Ashamed” by Sr. Laura Brotherson and “The Purity and the Passion” by Wendy Watson. When he recommended either book to his wife, he again got yelled at because he only wanted her to read those books so he could convince her to let him “work off his lustful desires” on her. I recognize that this is a woman in serious need of professional counseling (which she’s never going to get) but it’s not an isolated case. Their marriage continues along, and the husband, now in his 18th year of enforced celibacy honors his marriage through a sense of duty rather than desire. The woman is a prominent member of ward leadership offices because of her “holy” nature.

I've been busy on the farm, and just read this thread. What SKMO wrote above is what I was getting at.

So let me ask my question more simply. Has anyone heard of someone being chastised or disciplined for denying their spouse sex for an extended period of time?

[skmo]

This woman is praised for what a wonderful and blessed saint she is, because in pretty much all other areas she truly appears saintly. The husband never brings it up in a PPI or TR interview, and if he did, she raise holy hell with him, probably stop talking to him. Maybe even move out to go stay with her mother for a while. If she knew he's talked to me about it, it'd be the same thing.

[Fiannan]

Case in point: I know a couple where the wife has steadfastly refused sex for over ten years. One day, the husband was watching her bend over in her pajamas while she was picking something up off the floor, and he looked down her top. She immediately stood up and yelled at him for being a dirty old man for looking at his own wife’s nakedness. When this man came to me and a friend who is a bishop (not the husband’s bishop) for advice, we recommended the books “And They Were Not Ashamed” by Sr. Laura Brotherson and “The Purity and the Passion” by Wendy Watson. When he recommended either book to his wife, he again got yelled at because he only wanted her to read those books so he could convince her to let him “work off his lustful desires” on her. I recognize that this is a woman in serious need of professional counseling (which she’s never going to get) but it’s not an isolated case. Their marriage continues along, and the husband, now in his 18th year of enforced celibacy honors his marriage through a sense of duty rather than desire. The woman is a prominent member of ward leadership offices because of her “holy” nature.

I've been busy on the farm, and just read this thread. What SKMO wrote above is what I was getting at.

So let me ask my question more simply. Has anyone heard of someone being chastised or disciplined for denying their spouse sex for an extended period of time?

I have Heard it is grounds for a cancellation of sealing.

[Melissa]

There is somewhere that a divorce is considered ok (although not encourage) in the case of a spouse who is not performing their family role or responsibility. I always figured it was refering to men not working and women refusing to have children and care for them. Not sure it means sex necessarily but that should probably be left up to the couple to determine otherwise the church just might have to produce a minimum number of acceptable "encounters". And that just would not happen.

[djinwa]

There is somewhere that a divorce is considered ok (although not encourage) in the case of a spouse who is not performing their family role or responsibility. I always figured it was refering to men not working and women refusing to have children and care for them. Not sure it means sex necessarily but that should probably be left up to the couple to determine otherwise the church just might have to produce a minimum number of acceptable "encounters". And that just would not happen.

Well I've heard plenty of counsel to provide money for a family, and to provide for the emotional needs, and to nurture children.

Has anyone ever heard, say, in general conference, for spouses to provide for the sexual needs of each other?

I guess what I'm getting at, is if the only sexual messages are to exercise restraint, and there is no shame or disciplinary action if one shuts out their spouse, and the only recourse is divorce, then one could pretty much get away with not providing sex if they don't feel like it.

Sure, it would be hard to put a figure on how often it should be provided, but surely 18 years without is a bit much, and I would say a month is too long, but I would say a large percent of the members go longer than that.

I saw an interesting interview recently with the model and volleyball star Gabby Reece, who said she offers sex every 48 hours to her husband, and lets him run the family. She said that sex doesn't take that long. I'm sure she could come up with excuses to not do it, like her emotional needs not being met, but then how many would slog off to work every day if that was a prerequisite?

Ultimately, if offering sex is not a responsibility, then celibacy is considered acceptable in the church.

[Melissa]

Has anyone thought that if the men in the church would NOT have looked at pornography especially while married that some of these women wouldn't feel so insecure about themselves and feel so rejected physically already by their husbands? Maybe a woman holding out is the last straw of her dignity as a woman and wife? Maybe her withholding is the same as him looking at porn? Both are considered rejections by the other. Anyone looked at these correlations? I would dare say that there are many many many cases where this is the truth. A woman holds out because that is her very last sense of control with a man who has done as he pleases selfishly and she feels like she has lost him and their connection.

Seriously, it is not normal for a woman to withhold sex unless she is traumatized or for some physical discomforts, so when a woman does that it means it is a symptom of relationship problems. If men would stop complaining and acting so depressed about it and go to work to fix themselves and the relationship then the women just might regain some trust again and be willing to share something that pretty much requires us to feel safe to do.

Also, something that men need to know, women are fragile and if say you have an affair, the wife just may never be able to get over the betrayal and the self hatred and blame that it can produce. So be wise men!

Source of my thoughts: psychological training and extensive experience in human behaviors and a bit of my personal passion on the subject.

[Thinker]

Has anyone thought that if the men in the church would NOT have looked at pornography especially while married that some of these women wouldn't feel so insecure about themselves and feel so rejected physically already by their husbands? Maybe a woman holding out is the last straw of her dignity as a woman and wife? Maybe her withholding is the same as him looking at porn? Both are considered rejections by the other. Anyone looked at these correlations? I would dare say that there are many many many cases where this is the truth. A woman holds out because that is her very last sense of control with a man who has done as he pleases selfishly and she feels like she has lost him and their connection.

Seriously, it is not normal for a woman to withhold sex unless she is traumatized or for some physical discomforts, so when a woman does that it means it is a symptom of relationship problems. If men would stop complaining and acting so depressed about it and go to work to fix themselves and the relationship then the women just might regain some trust again and be willing to share something that pretty much requires us to feel safe to do.

Also, something that men need to know, women are fragile and if say you have an affair, the wife just may never be able to get over the betrayal and the self hatred and blame that it can produce. So be wise men!

Source of my thoughts: psychological training and extensive experience in human behaviors and a bit of my personal passion on the subject.

:ymapplause:
Well put!
I realize that generally...men need sex more than women - that it's in their nature.
I also realize women need emotional intimacy more than men - it's in their nature.

So...
Q: What tends to be the consequences of denying emotional intimacy?
A: The lack of motivation in sexual intimacy.

Q: What tends to be the consequences of denying sexual intimacy?
A: The lack of motivation in emotional intimacy.

It takes 2 to tango.

Though, I might add... in courting, one (emotional intimacy) comes before the other (sexual intimacy).

[skmo]

...Though, I might add... in courting, one (emotional intimacy) CAN AND SHOULD COME before the other (sexual intimacy).

Fixed. Unfortunately, it doesn't always happen that way.