Visions of Glory (spoiler alert)

[davedan]

I just finished this book.

Things I liked:
1. The General Conference was cool but this great meeting will likely be at Adam-ondi-ahmen and not Salt Lake City.

Small Issues:
1. Immigration Canyon should be spelled Emigration Canyon
2. Medical descriptions do not ring true
3. Union Pacific building is part of Gateway Mall and has 2 restaurants, live performance area called “The Depot”, and offices.
4. Not enough emphasis on the problem of nuclear fallout and clean water.

Possible Doctrinal Problems:
1. Attempt to link to Apostle for legitimacy.
2. Interaction between pre-mortal and post-portal spirits. (This would indicate the veil is lifted)
3. Ordinances in heaven mirrors ordinance on Earth. (Spirits can't do ordinances)
4. Says calling to 144,000 not a church calling and women also called.
5. Says dust in atmosphere made temperatures warmer due to global warming and not colder by reflection of sun's light.
6. Zion laid out in a wagon wheel pattern. (City of Zion layout was square)
7. No Sign of the Son of Man proceeding coming in glory.
8. No year without a rainbow.
9. No money or ownership. (United Order recognizes ownership and stewardship)
10. Describes Christ's eye color as blue and doesn't witness marks.
11. Christ at His coming in glory is wearing white and not red. (D&C 133 and Rev 19)
12. Does not discuss the physical resurrection.
12. Says that some Translated Beings were called to serve on other planets (D&C 130:5)

[TZONE]

Nice insights. I never paid this closely to it. I will respond to some I don't agree with.

I just finished this book.

Things I liked:
1. The General Conference was cool but this great meeting will likely be at Adam-ondi-ahmen and not Salt Lake City.
Still possible there is another smaller occurrence. There are statements form leaders talking about a meeting in SLC for the initial gathering. None of them talk about Christ or this conference center though.
Small Issues:
1. Immigration Canyon should be spelled Emigration Canyon
2. Medical descriptions do not ring true
3. Union Pacific building is part of Gateway Mall and has 2 restaurants, live performance area called “The Depot”, and offices.
4. Not enough emphasis on the problem of nuclear fallout and clean water.

Possible Doctrinal Problems:
1. Attempt to link to Apostle for legitimacy.
2. Interaction between pre-mortal and post-portal spirits. (This would indicate the veil is lifted)
How so? Which part you referring to? The interaction between them becoming translated etc, and talking to the other side? We know they will help build up NJ.
3. Ordinances in heaven mirrors ordinance on Earth. (Spirits can't do ordinances)
Ressurection is an ordinance. How is that done? There ARE spiriutla ordinances. Different than physical ones. This is just a guess though. Like how were we ordained to the priesthood before this life? Given blessings?
4. Says calling to 144,000 not a church calling and women also called.
Many people believe this to be true. I'm indifferent. Here is the main reason they cite this

D&C 77: 11 Q. What are we to understand by sealing the aone hundred and forty-four thousand, out of all the tribes of Israel—twelve thousand out of every tribe?

A. We are to understand that those who are sealed are bhigh priests, ordained unto the holy order of God, to administer the everlasting gospel; for they are they who are ordained out of every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, by the angels to whom is given power over the nations of the earth, to bring as many as will come to the church of the cFirstborn.

As women be set apart to it. I have no problems either. We believe in prophetess's and many believe in female apostleship. Not sure its true just sayin.
5. Says dust in atmosphere made temperatures warmer due to global warming and not colder by reflection of sun's light.
6. Zion laid out in a wagon wheel pattern. (City of Zion layout was square)
7. No Sign of the Son of Man proceeding coming in glory.
8. No year without a rainbow.
9. No money or ownership. (United Order recognizes ownership and stewardship)
I always figured the United Order would NOT be what the law of consecration would be. In fact I thought it was an inferior to consecration?
10. Describes Christ's eye color as blue and doesn't witness marks.
11. Christ at His coming in glory is wearing white and not red. (D&C 133 and Rev 19)
12. Does not discuss the physical resurrection.
But it states they were changed "in the twinkling of an eye"... I believe ressurection is a natural process of "being quickened" until glorifed with a fullnes of THAT ORDER (tel, ter, cel, etc)
12. Says that some Translated Beings were called to serve on other planets (D&C 130:5)
Joseph Smith was known to give a name of another world he was to administer to when he departed this life. So they must have belonged to it, or had belonged to it.

[durangout]

I just finished this book too and I had NUMEROUS problems with it as well. Most of the things on Davedan's list were obvious problems for me too. I guess I should've made a list...I'll just make a few general observations.

It apperas "Spencer" simply took existing end times "visions", jumbled them together and embellished upon them. I especially liked two segments that were eerily similar to 2 scens in The Matrix! He took obviously symbolic scriptural end times events and used them as literal events to tell his story.

BTW there are no Lost Tribes living under the N Pole. There are not. Really. Even if there were do you really think that they would be so spiritually developed that they could change the shape of objects by thought, create their own seer stones, have Christ visit them and they NOT have temple blessings? Really?

Don't get me wrong. I enjoyed reading the book. My only recommendation is read it knowing full well it is a work of fiction.

One last thought: I've never read any of Pontius' other works. I can only assume they are full of the same kinds of doctrinal, logical and incorrect scriptural interpretation errors that plague this one. I guess I can cross his books off my list.

So Sorry. One final. final comment. Pontius: get a new editor--one that will tell you how to correctly use the words "whom" and "who".

[TZONE]

Visions of Glory is Spencers dream. Its not John Pontiius's doctrine at all. His other books are NOTHING like this one. This one is an interview he had with Spencer compiled together. He states that at the beginning.

have Christ visit them and they NOT have temple blessings?

While I agree the NP is far fetched. This statement is not. Joseph Smith stated, "the rich receive their temple blessings in the temple, the poor receive them on the mountain tops". You can see Christ and have not had your endowment yet. Linguistics of what and how I don't know. May be different experiences or maybe not I don't know.

[LateOutOfBed]

6. Zion laid out in a wagon wheel pattern. (City of Zion layout was square)

This one didn't bug me so much, and here's a simple reason why. In the scriptures when it talks about the city of Zion's dimensions:

16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

The description never fully sat well with me because I thought "really Zion is a giant ~1500 mile cube?"... with 4 accessible sides and 3 gates in each side? (unless there's gates in the floor and "ceiling"). Then one day while messing with some 3d software and rotating a cube, I rotated in such a way that I saw this:


I then realized maybe this really was what John was trying to describe by giving 3 dimensions... just my thinking anyways, maybe the Lamanite posterity + the remnant really won't be building a 1500 mile high city afterall. Plus it makes it seem like it would be easier to organize the 12 tribes in a way all facing Christ.

The bigger issue I had with "Visions of Glory" was w/ the whole Temples in New Jerusalem:

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

-- Geoff

[durangout]

Another real "beauty" was that they literally eat the fruit from the "tree of life" and drink the water that came from under the temple. It was these acts that caused the people, plants and animlas to become immortal. Wow--just shocking. He of course "borrowed" that image from Rev 22. Again he shows his breathtakingly incorrect understanding of scripture. Those two things (the tree/friut and the water) are symbols and represent something very important yet he says this will actually happen. One more reason why I say it is a work of fiction.

[davedan]

Geoff-

Wow, I saw the cube at first, then I scrolled down looking for the wagon wheel. I then scrolled back up and only saw the hexagram. I was then thinking, where did the cube go? It took me a second to be able to switch perspectives back and forth.


Its tough to record authentic revelation because every detail needs to be correct. I think the Second Coming Christ wearing white was the biggest miss.

The thing I may agree with and had thought about prior was the details about possession by spirits. We are warned that the same addictions that we have here may plague us in the next life. I can imagine that without the holy ghost a spirit may not FEEL at all. So, I can see how spirits may seek to tempt mortals to pleasure seek and possibly possess them in the act in an attempt to FEEL what they are feeling. I don't buy spirits fighting over possession. It seems Legion didn't have any problem with sharing the pig.

However, I am sure with the gift of the Holy Ghost righteous spirits can focus on feeling the joy and happiness of Christian service and not get caught up in pleasure- or pain-seeking behavior.

[LateOutOfBed]

Geoff-

Wow, I saw the cube at first, then I scrolled down looking for the wagon wheel. I then scrolled back up and only saw the hexagram. I was then thinking, where did the cube go? It took me a second to be able to switch perspectives back and forth.


Its tough to record authentic revelation because every detail needs to be correct. I think the Second Coming Christ wearing white was the biggest miss.

Yea, there's a lot stated in his book that definitely disagrees with scripture. However, I don't doubt that he had these visions at all. He right off the bat claims he's not a prophet. My guess is he did see these things, but they have meaning for him and maybe some others that have read it. They definitely should not be taken as scripture. I honestly really enjoyed the read and felt many truths were being taught through him, I just don't think the whole thing is for us to learn "further light and knowledge" or to use as prophetical guidance on what will happen during the time leading up to our Savior's return. I feel strongly that he did see what he claims he saw and some of it meshed very closely to some other things I've read up on that I feel are true, I just don't think EVERYTHING in it holds truths (not even a lot of it, just a few things to be honest).

-- Geoff

[A Random Phrase]

Thanks for creating the thread, davedan. Your list brought up some things I had not noticed, as well as some I had.

Durangout, good points in your posts.

As far as John Pontius' other books in comparison to this one, I am of the understanding that he did not inject much into this book, but let it largely be "Spencer's" words. I have not found as much to disagree with in his other books as I have this one.

"Spencer" could have actually dreamed these things, or they could be nde's like he said most of them were. If they were true visions (no matter the vehicle), it is possible that they were not to be taken literally, and that they were only for him.

Since I am not in his shoes and did not experience those things, I can only take what I see through my own paradigms, and my paradigms tell me to be very skeptical, while at the same time acknowledging that he said is what he said. He seems to believe what he said. That is great, I suppose, as is the fact that some people feel lots of warm fuzzies or "Wow" feelings when they read some of what he has written.

If I lived in SLC or environs, I might feel the need to seek my own vision on the matter, but I live far from there and don't expect to live in that area again, thus I feel perfectly free to say to myself that the story was interesting in many parts and leave it at that, while I struggle not to condemn or be alarmed that people seem to be believing what I see as obvious untruths/defects.

[shestalou]

I think people have a hard time accepting that other people can have NDE's, and everyone interperts their experiences differently, for that reason I would never share my experiences unless I knew the person well. I refuse to judge anyone that is reaching out to give people hope and comfort in the days ahead. I have to applaud Spencer really willing to share his story knowing he would be unjustly scrutinized.

[EmmaLee]

6. Zion laid out in a wagon wheel pattern. (City of Zion layout was square)

This one didn't bug me so much, and here's a simple reason why. In the scriptures when it talks about the city of Zion's dimensions:

16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

I think davedan may have been referring to the City of Zion according to Joseph Smith (that's what I think of anyway, not the symbolic description in Revelation). From - http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/City_Planning" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Joseph Smith's ideas about city planning are contained in a document known as the City of Zion plan, which he prepared in 1833. The characteristics of this Zion plan include a regular grid pattern with square blocks, wide streets (132 feet), alternating half-acre lots so that houses face alternate streets on each block, uniform brick or stone construction, homes set back 25 feet from the street, frontyard landscaping, gardens in the backyard, the location of farms outside of town, and the designation of central blocks as a site for temples, schools, and other public buildings."

[EmmaLee]

+1 ARP

[sbsion]

btw, 144,000 NOT a church calling....it's a priesthood calling........so much more

[A Random Phrase]

I think people have a hard time accepting that other people can have NDE's, and everyone interperts their experiences differently, for that reason I would never share my experiences unless I knew the person well. I refuse to judge anyone that is reaching out to give people hope and comfort in the days ahead. I have to applaud Spencer really willing to share his story knowing he would be unjustly scrutinized.

You are right, imo.

I do accept that people have NDE's (in case you were referring to me). I think "Spencer" daring to share the depths of his soul like that.

My struggles

while I struggle not to condemn or be alarmed that people seem to be believing what I see as obvious untruths/defects.

are struggles against a tendency to be critical and judgmental, and struggles with recognizing that each person has their own path and that God is guiding them as much as He is allowed to (and to what level they are allowing Him is not my call to make). I believe it is vital to recognize truth, but not necessarily vital to be contentious about things I disagree with, nor should I dig in like a pit bull and insist that my perception is the only valid one.




Thanks, Stella.

[shestalou]

Im actually refering to everyone that tend to dismiss NDE's as a work of fiction, things in my NDE dont make sense here but it did there and I know most people will never understand it so I only share it on occassion but random phrase I find you one of the least judgemental people on here and very much enjoy your posts, thanks for your input and your christlike posts

[A Random Phrase]

Im actually refering to everyone that tend to dismiss NDE's as a work of fiction, things in my NDE dont make sense here but it did there and I know most people will never understand it so I only share it on occassion but random phrase I find you one of the least judgemental people on here and very much enjoy your posts, thanks for your input and your christlike posts

Thanks. :ymblushing:

I suspected that one reason some parts of nde's don't make sense to us other people is because what was experienced is so foreign to mortal culture that trying to explain it is nigh unto impossible. In fact, I have had some spiritual experiences that I don't know how to explain to others because the words available don't quite bring the reality of it, and even what I just said will probably not make sense to anyone who has not had such experiences.

[norgaards]

I felt the spirit while I read Visions of Glory, but I don't consider Spencer an alternative to the president of the Church - it was his own experience and he shared it with us. That's all. And I really enjoyed reading it. The president of the Church allways has the final word and I look to him for continued guidance.

The apostle John said: "The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." (Revelation 19:10). So any person who has the testimony of Jesus is a prophet - not for the Church, but for himself. Joseph Smith said that “The Holy Ghost is a revelator.” And, “No man can receive the Holy Ghost without receiving revelations.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 328). He further said: "God hath not revealed anything to Joseph, but what he will make known unto the Twelve, and even the least Saint may know all things as fast as he is able to bear them.” (Teachings, p. 149).

"Would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!" (Numbers 11:29).

John

[Rachael]

I just finished this book.

Things I liked:
1. The General Conference was cool but this great meeting will likely be at Adam-ondi-ahmen and not Salt Lake City.

Small Issues:
1. Immigration Canyon should be spelled Emigration Canyon
2. Medical descriptions do not ring true
3. Union Pacific building is part of Gateway Mall and has 2 restaurants, live performance area called “The Depot”, and offices.
4. Not enough emphasis on the problem of nuclear fallout and clean water.

Possible Doctrinal Problems:
1. Attempt to link to Apostle for legitimacy.
2. Interaction between pre-mortal and post-portal spirits. (This would indicate the veil is lifted)
3. Ordinances in heaven mirrors ordinance on Earth. (Spirits can't do ordinances)
4. Says calling to 144,000 not a church calling and women also called.
5. Says dust in atmosphere made temperatures warmer due to global warming and not colder by reflection of sun's light.
6. Zion laid out in a wagon wheel pattern. (City of Zion layout was square)
7. No Sign of the Son of Man proceeding coming in glory.
8. No year without a rainbow.
9. No money or ownership. (United Order recognizes ownership and stewardship)
10. Describes Christ's eye color as blue and doesn't witness marks.
11. Christ at His coming in glory is wearing white and not red. (D&C 133 and Rev 19)
12. Does not discuss the physical resurrection.
12. Says that some Translated Beings were called to serve on other planets (D&C 130:5)

Looks like you wasted however many hours it took of your life to read this book. It happens to all of us, with books, movies, etc. Thanks for the spoiler so I don't waste my time or money on it.

[Spaced_Out]

I just finished this book.

Things I liked:
1. The General Conference was cool but this great meeting will likely be at Adam-ondi-ahmen and not Salt Lake City.

Small Issues:
1. Immigration Canyon should be spelled Emigration Canyon
2. Medical descriptions do not ring true
3. Union Pacific building is part of Gateway Mall and has 2 restaurants, live performance area called “The Depot”, and offices.
4. Not enough emphasis on the problem of nuclear fallout and clean water.

Possible Doctrinal Problems:
1. Attempt to link to Apostle for legitimacy.
2. Interaction between pre-mortal and post-portal spirits. (This would indicate the veil is lifted)
3. Ordinances in heaven mirrors ordinance on Earth. (Spirits can't do ordinances)
4. Says calling to 144,000 not a church calling and women also called.
5. Says dust in atmosphere made temperatures warmer due to global warming and not colder by reflection of sun's light.
6. Zion laid out in a wagon wheel pattern. (City of Zion layout was square)
7. No Sign of the Son of Man proceeding coming in glory.
8. No year without a rainbow.
9. No money or ownership. (United Order recognizes ownership and stewardship)
10. Describes Christ's eye color as blue and doesn't witness marks.
11. Christ at His coming in glory is wearing white and not red. (D&C 133 and Rev 19)
12. Does not discuss the physical resurrection.
12. Says that some Translated Beings were called to serve on other planets (D&C 130:5)

Looks like you wasted however many hours it took of your life to read this book. It happens to all of us, with books, movies, etc. Thanks for the spoiler so I don't waste my time or money on it.

Reading theses kinds of post are a bigger waste of time

[Rachael]

Well stop doing it

[bbsion]

I enjoyed this book. I did not take everything as doctrine and I did have questions. But some of the questions I would want to ask Spencer instead of speculating here. I would recommend reading it to anyone but do not take it as scripture.

[Silver Pie]

One last bump.

I mean, we need something other than covid, the economy, and the murderers in Idaho to talk about - something entertaining.

[Scooter]

I just finished this book.

Things I liked:
1. The General Conference was cool but this great meeting will likely be at Adam-ondi-ahmen and not Salt Lake City.

Small Issues:
1. Immigration Canyon should be spelled Emigration Canyon
2. Medical descriptions do not ring true
3. Union Pacific building is part of Gateway Mall and has 2 restaurants, live performance area called “The Depot”, and offices.
4. Not enough emphasis on the problem of nuclear fallout and clean water.

Possible Doctrinal Problems:
1. Attempt to link to Apostle for legitimacy.
2. Interaction between pre-mortal and post-portal spirits. (This would indicate the veil is lifted)
3. Ordinances in heaven mirrors ordinance on Earth. (Spirits can't do ordinances)
4. Says calling to 144,000 not a church calling and women also called.
5. Says dust in atmosphere made temperatures warmer due to global warming and not colder by reflection of sun's light.
6. Zion laid out in a wagon wheel pattern. (City of Zion layout was square)
7. No Sign of the Son of Man proceeding coming in glory.
8. No year without a rainbow.
9. No money or ownership. (United Order recognizes ownership and stewardship)
10. Describes Christ's eye color as blue and doesn't witness marks.
11. Christ at His coming in glory is wearing white and not red. (D&C 133 and Rev 19)
12. Does not discuss the physical resurrection.
12. Says that some Translated Beings were called to serve on other planets (D&C 130:5)

The medical issues were laughable. One does not have a code blue and get sent home later...
Can’t we agree this guy is part of the daybell crazy train and stop talking about him.

[Tbone]

I don't live out west so I don't really know what it was like back when Visions of Glory came out, but would there have been a Chad Daybell, Mike Stroud, Julie Rowe, or Hector Sosa without the influence of VoG? Personally, I absolutely loved most of the book, but without the recommendation of my former home teaching companion I would have never read it, signed up for this forum, listened to Mills Crenshaw, or any of the other people previously mentioned. It's been an interesting ride, that's for sure.

[brianj]

The medical issues were laughable. One does not have a code blue and get sent home later...
Can’t we agree this guy is part of the daybell crazy train and stop talking about him.

I don't understand: are you saying that if someone has a code blue and is resuscitated and subsequently recovers, they aren't ever allowed to go back home?

People are going to talk about what they want to talk about. I hope you don't take offense at a suggestion that has worked wonders for me: if you don't like a subject of discussion, just skip that discussion!