Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after all

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AussieOi
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by AussieOi »

buffalo_girl wrote:Obviously, the New Zealand culture is more advanced.

Actually its cerebral now.
It's so culturally ingrained now its superfluous.
We have an agreement
we Always beat them in cricket
they Always beat us in Rugby,
And all of them are allowed to live in Bondi and draw welfare If they want.
;-)

once a year we share a day that for the 2 weeks preceding is possibly more important to us both than your thanksgiving, patriots day, MLK day and homecoming celebrations all wrapped into one.

we've even perfected it
no one has to actually do anything On ANZAC day....it just "is".

And unfortunately for those not from The surrounding Pacific nations, it can't actually be explained.

if you can understand a game which is nailbiting for 5 whole days then ends in a draw, maybe you can get it

if you could understand why our youth travel to the other side of the world to turkey, and at sunlight congratulate The Turks.for beating us in a war, yeah, almost there.

yeah, its a bledisloe thing.

you can't actively think about it. It just is

like that game kids play- where if they remember the game and think of it, they have to say "I just lost" .

or like family. You're allowed to hate a family member. But no one else is.

freedomforall
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

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A Random Phrase wrote:
freedomfighter wrote:So if someone is wrong, who is right? If everyone is wrong no one can be right. If everyone thinks they're right and someone is wrong then it changes all prospects of everybody being right. If some people are right and some people wrong then who is smart enough to separate and categorize the written wrong and right data? They might be wrong in their choices. Then we'd have to start all over, and this ain't right; it's just wrong, wouldn't it be? Right or wrong, I don't want to be wrong when I think I'm right, but I could be wrong not having enough substantial data proving I'm right...so the right thing to do is posting things I think are right, hoping I'm not wrong. This, however could be the wrong approach, but if I'm right I feel good, and if I'm wrong, the right thing to do is study more and not post wrong info.

Am I right or wrong in my supposition? I hope I am right and not wrong.
:))

:ymhug: This is why I like you. You not only think deeply, you think sideways and backways and frontways and upways and inter-dimensional-ways.
Thanks, mery vuch. I dove loing tgnihs thike lat.

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A Random Phrase
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by A Random Phrase »

freedomfighter wrote: Thanks, mery vuch. I dove loing tgnihs thike lat.
That reminds me of the story of the pree thittle ligs (or some such title). A friend told it to me once. It was hilarious.

freedomforall
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

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A Random Phrase wrote:
freedomfighter wrote: Thanks, mery vuch. I dove loing tgnihs thike lat.
That reminds me of the story of the pree thittle ligs (or some such title). A friend told it to me once. It was hilarious.
Or the attack of the snattle rakes.

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A Random Phrase
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by A Random Phrase »

freedomfighter wrote:
A Random Phrase wrote:
freedomfighter wrote: Thanks, mery vuch. I dove loing tgnihs thike lat.
That reminds me of the story of the pree thittle ligs (or some such title). A friend told it to me once. It was hilarious.
Or the attack of the snattle rakes.
:))
Yep.

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AussieOi
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by AussieOi »

Found this
http://emp.byui.edu/marrottr/TithingPayOnWhat.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

statements from lots of lds authorities saying it is on gross
of course, I disagree with them, as per the previous 400 pages, d&c119 and how it was originally lived, etc

In the interest of full discovery these statements should be recognized

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A Random Phrase
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by A Random Phrase »

AussieOi wrote:Found this
http://emp.byui.edu/marrottr/TithingPayOnWhat.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

statements from lots of lds authorities saying it is on gross
of course, I disagree with them, as per the previous 400 pages, d&c119 and how it was originally lived, etc

In the interest of full discovery these statements should be recognized
Yes, they should.

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AussieOi
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by AussieOi »

And then discounted because these men were not introducing church doctrine, but supporting a position which conflicted with established doctrine

buffalo_girl
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by buffalo_girl »

Full Doctrine regarding tithing needs to be worked out between the individual and the Lord.

I'm happy I paid tithing the way I have all these years - on the gross. I'm no accountant and it seems pretty easy to calculate that way. (I still think I need to give ALL the bottle lambs to the bishop. Maybe as a fast offering, though.)

More recently, with the price of a gallon of gas at $4.30 it costs me around $30 to drive to church and back each Sunday.

I've decided it is essential for us to honor the Sabbath. There are so many reasons we must.

On the other hand, it would make more financial, as well as time sense to buy a few farm essentials after church on Sunday rather than make another complete round trip drive once or twice during the month. It's a 3 hour there and back drive. On Sunday, it's a three hour drive and three hours in meetings. The extra drive to Bismarck during the week is a big bite out of our needed time working on the farm.

I know there's an answer somewhere in this, but I sure wouldn't expect some General Authority to figure it out for me.

When a member of the Church is living on nothing, 10% of nothing works out really well since the Lord blesses us with everything we need and more. The Church doesn't make up the difference. The Lord does.

If a member has $10-million annual gross, and his standard of living required 'for appearances' eats into the entire $10-million in order to insure that next year he/she will be able to make as much or more, then I can see why $1-million might be a trial - especially with governments taking the absolute cream off the top before tithing!

Nevertheless, I trust the Lord's accounting. I'm sure his mortal access to coin was sorely restricted. Otherwise, why tell Peter to go catch a fish - which happened to have a coin in its mouth - with which to pay tribute to the bureaucrats in Capernaum?

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/matt/17?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Zowieink
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by Zowieink »

My goodness. Such todo about nothing. Its individual. Period. When asked the question by your Bishop and Stake Presidency is either yes or no per your understanding of what tithing is. And besides, it will all come out in the wash, er, final judgement which way it really is supposed to have been.

Watch us all be wrong in our various definitions................. :))

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AussieOi
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by AussieOi »

Zowieink wrote:My goodness. Such todo about nothing.


If paying tithing means that you can’t pay for water or electricity, pay tithing. If paying tithing means that you can’t pay your rent, pay tithing. Even if paying tithing means that you don’t have enough money to feed your family, pay tithing." (Aaron L. West, Sacred Transformations, December 2012)



individual. Period. When asked the question by your Bishop and Stake Presidency is either yes or no per your understanding of what tithing is.

I dare you to say Yes, I pay it on surplus and see if you can get your TR



And besides, it will all come out in the wash, er, final judgement which way it really is supposed to have been.

Watch us all be wrong in our various definitions................. :))
All be wrong? What, god too? he was pretty clear wasn't he?

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AussieOi
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by AussieOi »

Zowieink wrote:My goodness. Such todo about nothing.
If paying tithing means that you can’t pay for water or electricity, pay tithing. If paying tithing means that you can’t pay your rent, pay tithing. Even if paying tithing means that you don’t have enough money to feed your family, pay tithing." (December 2012)


Dang, if only I had a spare $9.99. But alas, I borrowed money to pay my last tithing bill and my credit card is maxed out so i can't

Maybe I can take out another credit card to buy this

Yes, I got an e-mail from Deseret Book advertising Elder Holland's latest book.
http://deseretbook.com/Times-Trouble-Je ... /i/5098837" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Elder Holland's Opus - "Messages of Comfort" for the careworn and troubled, words of wisdom from an Apostle of the Church, just the salve any tortured soul needs. Who doesn't need messages of comfort?

But I need $9.99 though, words of comfort from an Apostle of the Church don't come free from Deseret (being a private profit making institution I can understand why they need to sell products at a profit).

Sure this could have been posted for free on the internet - or complementary for tithing payers (gross, of course)

But dang that Deseret book, selling a Prophets words for money.

Would Christ have charged money for his words of comfort? Absolutely not - Christ would have provided comfort for those who needed it without charge. I think Elder Holland would be so angry at Deseret selling his words of Apostolic comfort for money like that.

Personally, I've always found the selling of the gospel a tasteless practice, particularly by those who use a high position in the Church to make the sale happen. If Brother AussieOi gave the same speech (watch the YouTube) no one would be interested, but because he is an apostle Deseret stands to make a tidy sum from his "Messages of Comfort".

I know I sound snide and angry - but I really find this kind of thing troubling.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Our Father in Heaven wants us to be happy. And yet, we all have times of trouble. As Elder Jeffrey R. Holland writes, "One of the unfailing facts of mortal life is the recurring presence of trouble...When these difficult days (and nights!) come—and they will—it will help us to remember that 'it must needs be,' that in the grand councils of heaven before the world was, we agreed to such a time of challenge and refinement. We were taught then that facing, resolving, and enduring troublesome times was the price we would pay for progress. And we were committed to progress eternally."

A large percentage of the psalms that appear in the Bible were written for such times of trouble. From petitions for relief to acknowledgments of God's power, these psalms provide comfort, perspective, and spiritual solace when we are going through our own trials.

In this tender book, Elder Holland explores dozens of scriptural passages from the psalms, offering personal ideas and insights and sharing his testimony that "no matter what the trouble and trial of the day may be, we start and finish with the eternal truth that God is for us." Elder Holland's reflections on the psalms provide a powerful witness of that comforting truth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 4FtsdDew#!
Available in three editions:
Hardcover w/DVD with over 2 hours with Elder Holland
Enhanced Bookshelf eBook with 17 digital video segments featuring Elder Holland
Combo including Hardcover w/DVD and Enhanced Bookshelf eBook
Product Details

Size: 6 x 9
Pages: 256

freedomforall
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by freedomforall »

Whether a man pays tithing or not is his prerogative, his agency. But, by withholding that which belongs to God brings ramifications. Let's explore some scriptures.

Malachi, Chapter 3:8
8 ¶(a)Will a man (b)rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
(a) The term "will" here refers to ingratitude in the TG
(b) The term "rob" refers to:

1 Chr. 29:14
14 But who am I, and what is my people, that we should be able to offer so willingly after this sort? for all things come of thee, and of thine own have we given thee.

and: stealing in the TG

Now, if a person says how can I pay tithing when I have bills, lack of food for the family and other necessities I must have, is he showing faith? Let's see what the Lord says:

Third Nephi, Chapter 13:28-33
28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin;
29 And yet I say unto you, that even Solomon, in all his glory, was not arrayed like one of these.
30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is cast into the oven, even so will he clothe you, if ye are not of little faith.
31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
32 For your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you.

Therefore, isn't the paying of tithes, when it is difficult, an act of faith? Even more-so to believe God's promise, also in Matthew 6

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AussieOi
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by AussieOi »

Anyone who has read this thread is laughing at your ignorance

If you have read this thread, you are deceiving yourself.

For those who came late to this thread, all I can say is read page 1 please

freedomforall
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by freedomforall »

AussieOi wrote:Anyone who has read this thread is laughing at your ignorance Anyone who? A Random Phrase didn't claim me as something to be laughed at, or didn't you read the post? Who is anyone? Come on, name them. Read the scriptures again, and then determine who is ignorant. Good grief, Charlie Brown!

If you have read this thread, you are deceiving yourself.

For those who came late to this thread, all I can say is read page 1 please
Here we go again, whatever you say you all knowing scripture guru. All you spew is your contempt for having to pay tithing in the first place. It shows in so many of your posts. Don't you even read your own posts. Talk about ignorance.

You're not slamming me, you're slamming scripture and this is why you are so contemptuous.

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Post by freedomforall »

Is this person one of your followers, I really doubt it. In fact the opposite is evident.

The faithful know why they keep their covenants, if you want to cast them aside you are welcome to, but lets be honest about your intentions. You want to stir up contention more than anything else. If you actually believed that the garment wasn't important than you would take it off and go about your way. Instead you need to go to a place where you know people believe it is important in order to argue with them. Search your heart and if you find a contentious spirit then ask the Lord to remove it from you because contention comes from Satan.

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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

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For anyone that does not like me quoting scripture, just remember, it was Christ who used scripture to cast Satan away when He was on a forty day fast. He said:

Matthew 4:3-10
3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

So I am in perfect justification to follow his example by quoting scripture. But some of you already know that.

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AussieOi
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by AussieOi »

You know who Malachi was talking about, and 3 posts up you asserted that man is robbing god ( by referring to that scripture) and then played the gods ramifications / eternal punishment/ fear card. That is disingenuous.

Malachi , sorry, god through Malachi, was talking to the church/ religious leaders, NOT the people (as it is always sold to us)

But you knew that

If you like scripture so much, stick with D&C119

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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

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AussieOi wrote:You know who Malachi was talking about, and 3 posts up you asserted that man is robbing god ( by referring to that scripture) and then played the gods ramifications / eternal punishment/ fear card. That is disingenuous.

Malachi , sorry, god through Malachi, was talking to the church/ religious leaders, NOT the people (as it is always sold to us)

But you knew that
You forgot one important fact. We have been told we can liken the scriptures to ourselves, in our time. So your argument doesn't hold water. God's word is for any and all situations, because his word doesn't change, nor do circumstances that warrant such replies where applicable.

When the spirit directs me to say certain things, that is what I do. After that the ball is in your court to either accept them or reject them. But I will continue using God's word. Remember Moses? He had problems articulating his thoughts, so God appointed Aaron to be his spokesperson. Likewise, I have an issue of putting thoughts into perspective sometimes, so I use scripture. I let them do my talking for me. And God is okay with that. Too bad you're not.

But I will say this out of my own mouth, if you are allowed by the mods to continue calling names and using innuendo, and sick judgement in trying to stir up trouble and people to follow your example...to the end that you try to pit other forum members against each other including me or anyone else with your contemptuous manner...then why shouldn't it become open season for reciprocation in kind on you. Because it is profoundly clear that the mods are allowing you to continue with your rhetoric which seems to set a precedence here. Some of us are sick and tired of it. This "tool" declares it.

If you don't like some answers, fine. But don't come back with demeaning remarks in an attempt to make other people look down on other posters, just to make yourself look good. In fact, it does just the opposite. So why don't you clean up your act?

And I do not need sanctification from you. That's the very reason we have scripture.
Last edited by freedomforall on May 25th, 2013, 7:47 am, edited 2 times in total.

freedomforall
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by freedomforall »

AussieOi wrote:You know who Malachi was talking about, and 3 posts up you asserted that man is robbing god ( by referring to that scripture) and then played the gods ramifications / eternal punishment/ fear card. That is disingenuous.

Malachi , sorry, god through Malachi, was talking to the church/ religious leaders, NOT the people (as it is always sold to us)

But you knew that

If you like scripture so much, stick with D&C119
I went through D&C 119 and told you my take on it. Why, I even agreed with you on some points, but you were to busy screwing things up to notice it. Now if you want to go back and find out for yourself where I sided with you...go ahead. Otherwise just keep coming back with the same arguments over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over...again. You'll convince yourself sooner or later.

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AussieOi
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by AussieOi »

Just saw on another thread tomorrow is the Lorenzo Snow lesson on tithing.

Refer page 1.

Return and report please. I can't make it tomorrow, love to hear how wards go with this

Penstress
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by Penstress »

I said something to my teacher in class about Malachi. He said, "no" ... I said, I disagree. Lol

idahommie
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by idahommie »

Nice posts Freedom. Being new to this forum, it sure seems like there are many trying to justify not following the teachings of the Church and those commandments that have been given to the saints. From paying tithing to whom "you" want to or drinking beer, lots of rebellion going on.
One question to those in rebellion, if you don't believe the church, why do you associate yourself with it. Seems that would be stressful. The gospel of Jesus Christ should be peaceful.

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ajax
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by ajax »

Why are you so afraid that others may live the gospel different from you? I personally could care less how the gospel is lived in your home or anybody else's home. No stress at all. I welcome your fellowship. You seem to be the one adding unnecessary stress to your life worrying about others.
Too often LDS read the scriptures and then jump to the commentarys to see what someone else says about it. Read the scriptures straight. Only rely on the HG to teach. As concerning the WoW and tithing, section 89 and 119 are clear. These are Jesus' words.

A couple of reminders:

Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 3:203-204. It makes no difference what is written or what anyone has said, if what has been said is in conflict with what the Lord has revealed, we can set it aside. My words, and the teachings of any other member of the Church, high or low, if they do not square with the revelations, we need not accept them. Let us have this matter clear. We have accepted the four standard works as the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we measure every man's doctrine.

Harold B. Lee, The Teachings of Harold B. Lee, pg 544. If anyone, regardless of his position in the Church, were to advance a doctrine that is not substantiated by the standard Church works, meaning the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price, you may know that his statement is merely his private opinion. The only one authorized to bring forth any new doctrine is the President of the Church, who, when he does, will declare it as a revelation from God, and it will be so accepted by the Council of the Twelve and sustained by the body of the Church. And if any man speak a doctrine which contradicts what is in the standard Church works, you may know by that same token that it is false and you are not bound to accept it as truth.

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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Post by freedomforall »

idahommie wrote:Nice posts Freedom. Being new to this forum, it sure seems like there are many trying to justify not following the teachings of the Church and those commandments that have been given to the saints. From paying tithing to whom "you" want to or drinking beer, lots of rebellion going on.
One question to those in rebellion, if you don't believe the church, why do you associate yourself with it. Seems that would be stressful. The gospel of Jesus Christ should be peaceful.
Thank you, idahommie. Welcome to the forum.

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