Your home for discussing politics, the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, and the principles of liberty.
I'm surprised at how many people are searching for this talk right now (originally posted in a different thread "Best Stake Conference I Ever Attended"). It has been making the rounds via email. Interesting..lundbaek wrote:This talk is making the rounds in these parts now, and as one might expect there is a number of members who want to believe it is bogus and declare it so. They just cannot or will not believe a stake president would give such a talk, and/or they do not want that message to be true. I have said that bogus or not, the message itself is still true and accurate.
CORRECT> It matters not so much the source of truth as the Holy Ghost can witness the validity. Clamoring for more proof would place us in the "needing to be commanded in all things" group.lundbaek wrote:This talk is making the rounds in these parts now, and as one might expect there is a number of members who want to believe it is bogus and declare it so. They just cannot or will not believe a stake president would give such a talk, and/or they do not want that message to be true. I have said that bogus or not, the message itself is still true and accurate.
What a heap of uninformed nonsense. Much of this sort of talk is demonstrably false by the best available evidence on metrics like rates of violent crime, rates of hunger and starvation, rates of death and injury from war, etc., as a proportion of the world's population. Many religious people need to believe that this time in world history is really, really bad, because that's what their religious texts say. But the data on things like rates of violent crime as a proportion of the population show, rather, a clear decline over time. There are ups and downs along the way, but the trend on things like that is clear - down. But, hey, people like him are adept at believing against the best available evidence in certain circumstances.Never has there been a greater moral, economic, or political decline in society, than there was in 2012 and over the last few years. These climates combined, were as bad in 2012 as they have ever been in the history of the world.
We should role out the welcome mat to our SEO church service missionaries.BrianM wrote:That talk has gone viral and is making rounds via email and elsewhere.
Yes it is. Socialsim is all about free things, dependence, doing things for nothing. Such as the current welfare system of the government. That is the exact opposite of the church's self reliance stance. It has been quoted in General Conference that socialism is an evil trait. There are different variations of it. It does not mean the individual is evil the government part is. There are many good LDS ones who do believe in it. There are many (or ALL) good LDS who err in many doctrines in all sides (the left or the far right). They are still good people and that is life.What do you consider "socialism"? Does socialism = evil? There ARE good LDS members who are Democrats who would take exception to this
“I attended a second lecture on Socialism, by Mr. Finch; and after he got through, I made a few remarks… I said I did not believe the doctrine.” (History of the Church 6:33)
Heber J. Grant
“We again warn our people in America of the constantly increasing threat against our inspired Constitution and our free institutions set up under it. The same political tenets and philosophies that have brought war and terror in other parts of the world are at work amongst us in America…
“… Communism and all other similar isms bear no relationship whatever to the United Order. They are merely the clumsy counterfeits which Satan always devises of the gospel plan… Latter-day Saints cannot be true to their faith and lend aid, encouragement, or sympathy to any of these false philosophies. They will prove snares to their feet.” (Grant and McKay 273, 343)
David O. McKay
“Church members are at perfect liberty to act according to their own consciences in the matter of safeguarding our way of life. They are, of course, encouraged to honor the highest standards of the gospel and to work to preserve their own freedoms. They are free to participate in non-church meetings that are held to warn people of the threat of Communism or any other theory or principle that will deprive us of our free agency or individual liberties vouchsafed by the Constitution of the United States.” (”Statement Concerning the Position of the Church on Communism” 477)
First Presidency 1941 ( Heber J. Grant, J. Reuben Clark, Jr., David O. McKay )
“We believe that our real threat comes from within and not from without, and it comes from that underlying spirit common to Nazism, Fascism, and Communism, namely, the spirit which would array class against class, which would set up a socialistic state of some sort, which would rob the people of the liberties which we possess under the Constitution…
“As we see it, there is no way in which we can, to use your own words, “preserve and perpetuate our freedom—freedom to govern ourselves, freedom of speech, and freedom to worship God according to our own light,” except we shall turn away from our present course and resume the normal course along which this great country traveled to its present high eminence of prosperity, of culture, of universal education, and of the peace and contentment which we enjoyed prior to the inauguration of the “New Deal”. (1932-3)
“These things are not matters of partisan politics with us. We care nothing as Church leaders about partisan politics as such, nor about the dominance of one party or the other. We grant to every man the right to vote as he wishes, and we would not control his vote even if we could. But we do reserve to ourselves the right to tell our people what we think is right regarding politics as affecting the fundamentals of our government system, to warn them of the dangers that lie under the present course, and to try to persuade them that their peace, their happiness, and their security do not lie along the path of the present trends of government.
“Truly, we do not believe that—again to quote your own words—we can “preserve and perpetuate our freedom—freedom to govern ourselves, freedom of speech, and freedom to worship God according to our own light” unless we turn squarely about and return to the old-time virtues, and re-enthrone our liberties and free institutions.” (A Letter to the Treasury from the LDS First Presidency in 1941 )
Ezra Taft Benson
“No true Latter-day Saint can be a Communist or a Socialist because Communist principles run counter to the revealed word of God and to the Constitution of this land which was established by men whom the God of Heaven raised up unto that very purpose [D&C 101:80].” (”A Four-Fold Hope” 11)
“President McKay has said a lot about our tragic trends towards socialism and communism and the responsibilities liberty-loving people have in defending and preserving our Constitution. (See Conference Report, Apr 1963, pp. 112-13.) Have we read these words from God’s mouthpiece and pondered on them?” (”Be Not Deceived” 1064; compare GFC 340)
“Let us not be deceived in the sifting days ahead. Let us rally together on principle behind the prophet as guided by the promptings of the Spirit. We should continue to speak out for freedom and against socialism and communism. We should continue to come to the aid of patriots, programs, and organizations that are trying to save our Constitution through every legal and moral means possible.” (”Be Not Deceived” 1065; compare GFC 342)
“We must be righteous and moral. We must live the gospel principles—all of them. We have no right to expect a higher degree of morality from those who represent us than what we ourselves are. In the final analysis, people generally get the kind of government they deserve. To live a higher law means we will not seek to receive what we have not earned by our own labor. It means we will remember that government owes us nothing. It means we will keep the laws of the land. It means we will look to God as our Lawgiver and the Source of our liberty.” (CHB 28-31)
“I fear for the future when I realize that for some thirty years our once-free institutions, political, economic, educational and social, have been drifting into the hands of those who favor the Welfare State, and who would “centralize all power in the hands of the political apparatus in Washington. This enhancement of political power at the expense of individual rights, so often disguised as ‘democracy’ or ‘freedom’ or ‘civil rights,’ is ’socialism,’ no matter what name tag it bears…
“I fear for the future when I see an affluent but complacent citizenry paying little or no attention to these and many other socialistic trends in America.
“Dr. V. Orval Watts, noted political economist, has described this socialist system which I fear-and I have but suggested a very few evidences. Here are his words: ‘Socialism… is the theory and practice of coercive collectivism. It is the evil fruit of greed for other men’s possessions and greed for control over other men’s labor.’” (Elder Ezra Taft Benson December 10 1963. A Race Against Time.)
“We have moved a long way – and are now moving further and more rapidly down the soul-destroying road of socialism. The evidence is clear – shockingly clear for all to see…
“Now we should all be opposed to Socialistic-Communism, for it is our mortal and spiritual enemy – the greatest evil in the world today. But the reason many liberals don’t want the American people to form study groups to really understand and than fight Socialistic-Communism is that once the American people get the facts they will begin to realize that much of what these liberals advocate is actually helping the enemy.
“The liberals hope you’ll believe them when they tell you how anti-Communist they are. But they become alarmed if you really inform yourself on the subject of Socialistic-Communism. For after you inform yourself you might begin to study the liberal voting record. And this study would show you how much the liberals are giving aid and comfort to the enemy and how much the liberals are actually leading America towards Socialism itself.
“For Communism is just another form of socialism, as is fascism. So now you can see the picture. These liberals want you to know how much they are doing for you – with your tax money of course. But they don’t want you to realize that the path they are pursuing is socialistic, and that socialism is the same as communism in its ultimate effect on our liberties. When you point this out they want to shut you up – they accuse you of maligning them, of casting aspersions, of being political. No matter whether they label their bottle as liberalism, progressivism, or social reform – I know the contents of the bottle is poison to this Republic and I’m going to call it poison.” (Ezra Taft Benson. Stand Up For Freedom. Assembly Hall at Temple Square, Feb 11, 1966. Given to The Utah Forum for the American Idea)
lundbaek wrote:I am aware of a great many Church members who are definitely not wicked as I understand the word "wicked", but who cannot cope with what the Lord and His prophets and apostles have told us about the US Constitution and the attacks against it and our freedoms. Not only have they ignored the admonitions in their scriptures and from their prophets and apostles to study, uphold, and abide by the principles of the US Constitution, but they have also largely ignored the warnings about secret combinations among them striving to gain control over their government and steal their wealth. But that alone does not qualify anyone for the "wicked" label. In spite of the hellfire and brimstone threats I have heard and read pertaining to members who neglect those responsibilities, I don't envision them shoveling coal down in the eternal boiler room for that neglect alone. But then as I reread this: http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/images/fp_1941.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; I have to wonder.
Thanks for the link Lund! Although, now I may have to research the "Deseret News" article that is referenced at the end that is evidently contrary to that which is in the letter. (Of course I trust that letter from the First Presidency more) Would be an interesting read.lundbaek wrote:No, I am not suggesting that the changing attitude of the church toward promoting war bonds after Pearl Harbor is some sort of evidence of secret combinations. I am impressed with statements in that letter that evidence a very serious view on parts of Presidents Grant, Clark, and McKay toward neglect on the part of Church members of the US Constitution.