Does anyone know..

For discussion of political issues in general.
reese
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1246
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:51 am

Does anyone know..

Postby reese » Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:30 pm

Does anybody know anything about a man named Ogden Kraut?

Sponsored Links

Advertisements

Medical Cost Sharing - It's not insurance it's better!

Rand
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1614
Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:42 pm

Re: Does anyone know..

Postby Rand » Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:36 pm

Nope, but I have heard of him. I found this at:
http://www.morningliberty.com/2010/05/2 ... den-kraut/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


The Life of Ogden Kraut
Ogden Kraut was a convert to the LDS Church, “ the Mormons. “
Coming to grips with the truth of the Book of Mormon and gaining a conviction that Joseph Smith was a modern day Prophet in his day are a couple of the vivid transitions that people go through after they join the L D S Church.
In the oceans there are all kinds of fish. In the Mormon Church there are all kinds of members, people with varying degrees of religious understanding. Some men and women simply do what they are told by their clergy leaders. Some people worship Jesus and try to fit in with changing leadership and policies. A few people go off, on their own and pursue their own study, gaining their own understanding of things.
Joseph Smith used to teach and practice doctrines that the main Church today keeps trying to put behind them.
You can't hide the true history of the L D S Church.
Ogden Kraut became a Sunday School teacher. Easy, P C answers to gospel questions were not enough for him.
Before Ogden Kraut passed away his reputation proceeded him and most people either loved him or hated him. Ogden Kraut's life became a living example to ' all of the truths, “ that Joseph Smith used to espouse.
Ogden Kraut became a prolific writer on significant Principles of the Gospel that Joseph Smith used to teach and live. As Ogden Kraut continued to research he would share the true documentation of the true Mormon History that he found.
A few Mormon researchers love the research and documentation that Ogden Kraut has offered to the public. Ogden Kraut was famous for documenting the true history of polygamy and the Adam-God Doctrine and Blood Atonement and the Dream Mine, just to name a few.
Most Mormons have never heard of Ogden Kraut's work and if they did they would disdain him and his claims.
There are many Ultra Mormon sects, “ Mormon Fundamentalists, “ and some of these thousands and thousands of followers of Joseph Smith appreciate some of Ogden Kraut's work and some fundamentalists despise Ogden's work.
Whether you choose to love Ogden Kraut or hate Ogden Kraut at least here is 1 man who risked everything to follow his convictions and he was willing to discuss these things publicly.

Rand
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1614
Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:42 pm

Re: Does anyone know..

Postby Rand » Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:39 pm

More here:
http://ofimmortalityandheaven.blogspot. ... kraut.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

User avatar
BrianM
The Creator (of the forum)
Posts: 4534
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 1:37 pm
Contact:

Re: Does anyone know..

Postby BrianM » Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:39 pm

reese wrote:Does anybody know anything about a man named Ogden Kraut?
Not a whole lot... but I know he is a Fundamentalist, and has written a lot of books: http://ogdenkraut.com/bookavailability.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
He's also no longer living.
All my opinions are tentative pending further data...

The Matrix is real...

User avatar
iamse7en
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1468
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:19 pm

Re: Does anyone know..

Postby iamse7en » Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:44 pm

I believe he falls under the "Independent Fundamentalist Mormons" category. He was a member of the LDS Church and decided he must practice plural marriage, believe Adam-God, etc. You can get a better idea of his story by listening to one of his wives' story (Anne Wilde).

I have read quite a few of his books. I really like them. He does good research, the books are short and sweet, however I don't like some of his conclusions. For example, he believes the LDS Church is in a state of apostasy (surely true of quite a few members, but he's referring to the prophets as well). We apostatized by giving up plural marriage, denying AG teachings, giving priesthood to blacks, etc. However, I still recommend his books to a seasoned member. Not for every new convert. :)

Update: Here's a good backstory:
One of the most renown of all “independents,” Ogden Kraut was set apart as a “Seventy” by Joseph W. Musser in the mid-1940s, but afterwards served a mission for the Church.[1] Excommunicated in 1972 for “teaching and promoting the living of plural marriage in our day,”[2] he went on to champion the cause of polygamy by authoring more than sixty books defending its continued practice. Staying neutral regarding the specific teachings of the larger “groups,” most fundamentalists applauded Kraut’s writings even if they didn’t agree with all of his interpretation of fundamentalist traditions. Though an activist in many ways, he did not support violence or confrontation as a way to promote the practice of plural marriage. His diplomacy earned him the respect of most of the people he met, regardless of their stand on plural marriage.

In one of his more popular publications is 95 Theses, Kraut attempted to mimic Martin Luther who on 31 October 1517 nailed a list of “95 Theses” or problems he had identified with the Catholic Church, on the door of the castle church at Wittenberg, Germany. Some of the “95” topics included by Kraut are unimpressive such as “fear of enemies” and “healing instruments.” However, he also listed the dozen or so more common concerns consistently repeated in fundamentalist literature.[3]

Curiously in all of his writings, it appears that he never explained his beliefs regarding the “one” man mentioned in D&C 132. Reportedly he approached Louis Kelsch to perform some sealings in the early 1970s, but later was influenced by Alex Joseph and Robert C. Crossfield. In 1991, one of his plural wives was asked regarding the sealing authority used to solemnize his own marriages, she paused a moment and then responded, “I’ll have to ask him.”[4] On one occasion he complained: “It is a very perplexing problem today for individuals who want to enter into the law of Abraham, to find someone to perform the sealing, because of the restrictions established by the groups themselves and even some of the independent prophets. If the Lord should reveal to a man and a woman that they are to be joined in the law, and they approach someone they feel has that calling in one of the groups, they are usually told that they must first be baptized into their church group, attend meetings for a year, and pay their tithing to them. The people feel it is priestcraft because it looks like they are required to pay for that ordinance.”[5]

In defense of the distance he kept from the larger polygamist groups, Kraut wrote: “John Taylor authorized and set apart several men to perpetuate the principle of plural marriage and gave them the calling to perform such marriage, regardless of what the Church or the government might say or do... There is no mention of setting up a church, taking tithing, having weekly meetings, or setting up a colony somewhere. Their calling (or keys) was to (1) live plural marriage, (2) perform plural marriage sealings, and (3) set apart others with this same calling.”[6]

Shortly before his death in July of 2002, Kraut penned his opinion of the status of modern polygamy: “The fulness of the Gospel is still alive B seriously wounded, but it does survive. It has been splintered and the splinters have splinters B who disagree over who has the most ‘authority’ or the most ‘keys.’ But a few righteous Saints still defend the restored Gospel and its eternal Priesthood laws as given to Joseph Smith, scattered though they may be.”[7] He also added: “The Mormon Church believes Joseph Smith is a prophet and so do the Fundamentalists; so why are they at such odds with each other? The answer is simple: one believes everything the Prophet Joseph taught, and the other does not. And the gap grows wider.”[8]
Update 2:
Rand wrote:I found this at: http://www.morningliberty.com/2010/05/2 ... den-kraut/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That was a very interesting interview. Thanks for the link! (Kraut comes on at 23:40).

More interviews here. I am enjoying them.

Update 3: Here is an excerpt form Anne's interview, talking about Ogden (they were married in 1969):

Last edited by iamse7en on Tue Aug 02, 2011 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
HeirofNumenor
the Heir Of Numenor
Posts: 4267
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:15 pm
Location: UT

Re: Does anyone know..

Postby HeirofNumenor » Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:07 pm

In other words he is an apostate who didn't believe that God would have His prophets do something different. He did a lot of intellectual research and used his research to change his opinions, and pushed out the Holy Ghost.
"Yet it is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succor of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know...What weather they shall have is not ours to rule."

User avatar
iamse7en
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1468
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:19 pm

Re: Does anyone know..

Postby iamse7en » Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:50 pm

Some more information from this 1998 article about Ogden Kraut (he died in 2002):

Ogden Kraut served a mission for the LDS church in 1948 after being ordained to the office of seventy for that mission by Joseph W. Musser, fundamentalist leader and publisher of Truth. Kraut continued as an active elder in the LDS church and as a fundamentalist seventy and publisher until his excommunication for apostasy in 1972.

Ogden Kraut was a fundamentalist for twenty-one years as an adult before he married a plural wife in 1969.

Ogden Kraut observes that the organized groups regard an increase in the number of wives as requirement or reward for each level of presiding office. Even though Kraut himself now has five wives, he waited two decades to marry polygamously, and says, "Personally, I don't just don't think that they ought to be running around looking for a bunch of wives. Some of the groups kind of have the idea that the more wives you have the more power, authority, whatever."

After the Singer-Swapp family bombed an LDS chapel and barricaded themselves at their family compound, Ogden Kraut's efforts at defusing the situation endeared him to the law enforcement agencies. When the resulting publicity of Kraut's polygamous status endangered his position as a civilian employee of the U.S. Army, the local FBI chief and the Utah attorney general intervened with the post commander to protect Kraut's position.

Ogden Kraut observed that there are "professors of religion that I'm acquainted with who believe all the doctrines of Fundamentalism, and yet they're teaching at BYU, seminaries, and institutes" of the LDS church. He added in another interview that these fundamentalist sympathizers include "high councilmen, bishops, and in some cases stake presidents."

---

Fascinating article. Especially interesting was the section on how Fundamentalists view the LDS Church, particularly when you consider how the LDS Church treats them.

User avatar
A Random Phrase
Follower of Christ
Posts: 6613
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:15 pm
Location: Staring at my computer, not sure whether to laugh or cry.

Re: Does anyone know..

Postby A Random Phrase » Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:26 pm

The grade-school-age son of a friend of mine was playing around a dumpster at a church building and found a book called "Jesus Was Married" by Ogden Kraut. (This was over twenty years ago.) He brought it home to his mother and she let me read it. It was very interesting and brought up some good points. At the time, I had no idea if the author was alive or dead. The book looked pretty old to me.


Edit: forgot the word "son"
Last edited by A Random Phrase on Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- - Toni


Lord, I believe. Help thou mine unbelief.

User avatar
iamse7en
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1468
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:19 pm

Re: Does anyone know..

Postby iamse7en » Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:48 am

I first read "Jesus Was Married" on my mission, and I had no idea it was written by an ex'd fundamentalist. ;) It was a great book. I like a lot of his books. Good research. I don't agree with all of his conclusions, but I could say the same about lots of authors I love reading.

User avatar
sadie_Mormon
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1487
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:08 pm
Location: Northeastern US

Re: Does anyone know..

Postby sadie_Mormon » Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:16 am

HeirofNumenor wrote:In other words he is an apostate who didn't believe that God would have His prophets do something different. He did a lot of intellectual research and used his research to change his opinions, and pushed out the Holy Ghost.

huh?
"Mormonism is the pure doctrine of Jesus Christ; of which I myself am not ashamed." Joseph Smith

User avatar
A Random Phrase
Follower of Christ
Posts: 6613
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:15 pm
Location: Staring at my computer, not sure whether to laugh or cry.

Re: Does anyone know..

Postby A Random Phrase » Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:36 pm

iamse7en wrote:I first read "Jesus Was Married" on my mission, and I had no idea it was written by an ex'd fundamentalist. ;) It was a great book. I like a lot of his books. Good research. I don't agree with all of his conclusions, but I could say the same about lots of authors I love reading.
Same here (with the exception of reading it on my mission).
- - Toni


Lord, I believe. Help thou mine unbelief.

User avatar
iamse7en
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1468
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:19 pm

Re: Does anyone know Ogden Kraut..

Postby iamse7en » Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:10 pm

Read this recently and thought it was excellent. Ogden has some great stuff.
Before we were born, we listened to two different programs presented for this earth. The devil's plan was not that he would let people kill, rob, rape, go to war and do evil. Absolutely not! Rather, he said, "I'm going to save everyone; I'm going to make them obey. I'm going to establish federal police, state police, city police, officers and agents. I'll issue thousands and thousands of laws, codes, statutes, rules and regulations for the people to obey. I will make people get licenses, permits, charters, and exemptions. They will need to be finger-printed, photographed, registered, and computerized. They will be identified in numerous ways including numbering.

And, we are going to protect them by offering many different ways to get welfare, food stamps, grants, loans, aid--even foreign aid. And we will institute a complete taxing system to tax everyone except those who are on our welfare programs.

User avatar
Joel
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3728
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:48 am

Anne’s Marriage – Was Jesus a Polygamist?

Postby Joel » Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:44 am

I’m excited to talk to Anne Wilde about her own polygamist marriage to Ogden Kraut. She was the second wife of Ogden. We’ll also talk a little bit about Jesus. Was he a polygamist?


More of her interview here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4juEh8 ... YB-1GCodKv
Before the photoshop job :)

User avatar
Meili
Don't ask . . .
Posts: 6693
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:18 am
Contact:

Re: Does anyone know..

Postby Meili » Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:06 pm

I know his son Kevin a bit.
"I do respect 'authority' - when it respects me. Otherwise it is not 'authority'; it is tyranny."
~buffalo_girl

User avatar
sandman45
captain of 100
Posts: 671
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:38 pm

Re: Does anyone know..

Postby sandman45 » Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:58 am

reese wrote:
Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:30 pm
Does anybody know anything about a man named Ogden Kraut?
He wrote some amazing books. I have read a couple of them. They were very well written and researched with sources etc..

check it out here

http://ogdenkraut.com/

Prattaking
Hi, I'm new.
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:37 pm

Re: Does anyone know..

Postby Prattaking » Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:40 pm

i did have heard about this man but never actually knew anything about him. All I heard is that he's a writer if i'm not wrong, but not sure what he writes. thanks for all the information here, might be useful!

User avatar
skmo
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4339
Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:44 am

Re: Does anyone know..

Postby skmo » Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:24 pm

Although it's off topic, the title of this thread made me think of this song, and I found myself melancholy about when musicians made music, not just pelvic grinding.
.
.
.
Governments don’t live together, people live together. With governments you don’t always get a fair word or a fair fight. Well I’ve come here to give you either one - Or get either one from you.

gardener4life
captain of 100
Posts: 724
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:46 am

Re: Does anyone know..

Postby gardener4life » Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:39 pm

Most comments here bring to light the fact that he is a teacher and followed the gospel etc, but fail to bring up he was excommunicated. When you are excommunicated there's a reason. No offense but I think some of the answers above are misleading about him. If you don't say it like how it is people will get confused and start looking at sources of teaching not approved by the Lord.

User avatar
inho
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1230
Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2013 2:08 am
Location: in a galaxy far, far away

Re: Does anyone know..

Postby inho » Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:40 am

gardener4life wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:39 pm
Most comments here bring to light the fact that he is a teacher and followed the gospel etc, but fail to bring up he was excommunicated. When you are excommunicated there's a reason. No offense but I think some of the answers above are misleading about him. If you don't say it like how it is people will get confused and start looking at sources of teaching not approved by the Lord.
That is a good clarification,. As said in many of the responses above, he was a fundamentalist. However, his books are often more like collections of quotes than something written by himself. So if one is interested in the gift of tongues, three Nephites, or dreams or something else, one can check his books and read quote after quote about the topic. Usually it is pretty easy to skip the fundamentalist stuff in them. And not all of his books have any fundamentalist agenda at all. Many orthodox Mormons enjoy his books too.


Return to “General Discussions”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Arenera, BeNotDeceived, BrianM, captainfearnot, CelestialAngel, Col. Flagg, DesertWonderer2, e-eye2.0, Ezra, Fiannan, Finrock, gilgal, gkearney, Google Adsense [Bot], jess123, jsk, Juliet, LdsMarco, lundbaek, Onsdag, sbee60, Serragon, simpleton and 172 guests