Who knows about Bitcoin?

For discussion of political issues in general.
User avatar
iamse7en
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1468
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:19 pm

Re: Who knows about Bitcoin?

Postby iamse7en » Sun Jun 05, 2011 9:20 pm

I was actually listening to K-Talk the other morning and they were discussing BitCoin. I don't know enough, but this is my initial take: you have to applaud spontaneous efforts to start private currencies, but from the little I learned about it, it doesn't hold the basic characteristics that money needs to have: tangible/real, extremely difficult to duplicate/fake, durable, valued by the people, etc. But I'm all for competing currencies and innovative ideas, so I applaud the idea, but my personal thought is there is a reason markets in our history have always chosen gold and silver as money. But let local, private banks compete and innovate, and the market will determine the best money with the best service. Free markets is a pipe dream, but it's at least fun to speculate what liberty would be like. :)

Sponsored Links

Advertisements

Medical Cost Sharing - It's not insurance it's better!

jonesde
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1304
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 12:39 pm

Re: Who knows about Bitcoin?

Postby jonesde » Sun Jun 05, 2011 11:02 pm

Bitcoin is based on some very reliable technology. There is a good description of it on WikiPedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Bitcoin is valuable as an anonymous and fairly safe medium of exchange. It is quite difficult to falsify a transaction or fraudulently transfer money out of a "wallet". If you have access to the private key for the wallet you can easily transfer out of it, so like cash you have to keep that private key very safe. How much money is associated with each private key is well-known on the network (that is part of the trust aspect of the currency), and it is easy to get the "public key" for the wallet, but it is not mathematically easy to determine the private key from the public key.

That's probably not the best description of it, but basically the value of it is that it is pretty reliable/secure, and can be used to transfer value remotely without physical contact or transportation of physical material.

The flip side is that it does not represent ANY real value other than what people give it because of the two properties I just mentioned. So, if there are better alternatives or government regulation (which would be difficult to enforce) or if people even just lost interest in it, the market in bitcoins would fall apart.

So, it doesn't represent anything real and I wouldn't rely on it for a long-term store of value, and it would be highly risky to invest in it for anything other than a hopeful short-term return, but using it for transactions is interesting.

Another thing to note is that the built-in limit for bitcoins is 21 million, with less than a third of them "mined" yet (done with the bitcoin software, but it intentionally takes a lot of processing power and time to avoid inflation). The problem with those limits is that if lots of people get interested in bitcoin the value of bitcoins will go up fast for a while, but just because it is limited. In other words there is no way to scale the supply in response to the demand, so the market will response with an increase in price. That doesn't represent real value of any sort, it just represents pure demand.

If it goes the other way and people lose interest in it, which would happen FAST if someone did figure out a way to falsify transactions or "forge" bitcoins instead of "honestly" mining them, then interest in it would probably go down very fast and its market value would crash in a short amount of time (ie no one would want to buy them... lots of people would want to sell them).

It's a very interesting concept, and could be a way to safely transfer money without the need for government controlled intermediaries (ie banks, money transfer companies like Western Union, etc). However, it surely won't be used for just that. In fact, it might be used more for speculation than to facilitate trade, which for an intentionally limited currency would corrupt it VERY fast.

So, use if it you find it useful... but watch out for long-term preservation of value.

jonesde
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1304
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 12:39 pm

Re: Who knows about Bitcoin?

Postby jonesde » Sun Jun 05, 2011 11:45 pm

You're right, that's absolutely true about US dollars, they do not have any real value behind them.

There are some big differences between bitcoin and USD (not that one or the other is better, IMO, but they are different in nature):

1. Monetary Inflation (not to be confused with price inflation):
- bitcoin has a fixed limit and intentionally slow "inflation" with no mechanism for deflation
- USD has no limit and by using it we implicitly trust the Federal Reserve banks to inflate/expand and deflate/contract the money supply in a way that is best

2. Voluntary Use and Enforcement
- bitcoin use is purely voluntary; there is no organization threatening violence for not using it or for competing with it; there is no organization using force to prevent counterfeiting
- USD use is mandatory within the United States and competing with it is not allowed, which is enforced by the US Govt who also works to prevent and prosecute counterfeiting

3. Regulation and Taxation
- bitcoin is anonymous and transfer is "peer-to-peer", meaning it does not go through an organization that is licensed and regulated by the government, and therefore is very difficult to enforce a tax on (which is why use of cash is discouraged, and AML laws are so prevalent in spite of being quite onerous)
- USD can be anonymous through cash, and can be transferred peer-to-peer (though safely only face-to-face), but it's use is for the most part highly monitored and goes through organizations that are highly regulated, and with AML and related laws it is fairly easy to enforce taxes based on it

There are probably lots of other interesting comparisons between bitcoin and USD, but those are just some off the top of my head. I'm working with some clients in the financial industry right now and it has been interesting discussing some of these things with them.

User avatar
iamse7en
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1468
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:19 pm

Re: Who knows about Bitcoin?

Postby iamse7en » Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:38 am

JulesGP wrote:
jonesde wrote: The flip side is that it does not represent ANY real value other than what people give it
Doesn't that pretty much describe the USD though??
Essentially, you could say that's true about gold as well, but gold has certain characteristics that has always made the preferred money since the beginning of time.


Samuel the Lamanite
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2832
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 11:58 am

Re: Who knows about Bitcoin?

Postby Samuel the Lamanite » Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:41 am

IMO, BitCoin is just another method for wild specualtion as can be seen in the rapidly rising price. Others can get involved but I'll stick with Gold, Silver, Oil and other real assets.

AllTen
captain of 100
Posts: 113
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 9:35 pm

Re: Who knows about Bitcoin?

Postby AllTen » Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:01 pm

"It's the first Decentralized Digital Crypto-Currency that utilizes a global peer-to-peer network"
BitCoins are very cool.
I'm in full anticipation for them to be demonized by the MSM.
Money for drugs, prostitution, and of course terrorist will be the propaganda.

Whatever your thoughts be, you could mine some bitcoins for me with your extra CPU power while you browse online:
Just go here (requires java). If you start your own account and mine for yourself then that's awesome too.
http://www.bitcoinplus.com/generate?for=949166

THANKS

Samuel the Lamanite
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2832
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 11:58 am

Re: Who knows about Bitcoin?

Postby Samuel the Lamanite » Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:55 pm

FYI, the US Senate is thinking about banning BitCoin.

User avatar
iamse7en
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1468
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:19 pm

Re: Who knows about Bitcoin?

Postby iamse7en » Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:56 pm

Austro-Economist-Historian David Kramer on BitCoin:
Bitcoin: Just Another Bogus Medium of Exchange
Posted by David Kramer on June 9, 2011 03:00 PM

I'm sure by now many of you have heard about Bitcoin. The fact that it's called "virtual currency" gives you an idea about its actual value as a real medium of exchange. While many people who are touting it on Facebook are enamored with the fact that it was voluntarily created by the marketplace (i.e., is not forced down our throats by a private central bank), I'm afraid that those people are losing sight of how a real medium of exchange arises in a free market. A medium of exchange arises from something that had a material use/value in the market prior to becoming a medium of exchange, i.e., it was also a good being bartered for other goods and services. Over the centuries, gold and silver won out as the two most preferred mediums of exchange—with gold holding the number one position due to it being more scarce than silver.

What was Bitcoin's prior material use/value? Zero. It is just bits in a computer. And what's with the "fixed" amount of Bitcoins? Who determined the "proper" amount? A computer programmer? Only the free market can voluntarily determine how much of a real medium of exchange is needed in the marketplace over time. While the idea of attempting to get rid of the Bankster monopoly on creating money out of thin air is commendable, Bitcoin is also money created out of thin air. Bitcoin is just substituting one bogus medium of exchange for another.

User avatar
iamse7en
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1468
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:19 pm

Re: Who knows about Bitcoin?

Postby iamse7en » Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:17 am

A Clear, Concise Look at Bitcoin
JUNE 15, 2011 by JUSTIN PTAK

BitCoin, the world’s “first decentralized digital currency”, was devised in 2009. Unlike other virtual monies it does not have a central clearing house run by a single organization. Nor is it pegged to any real-world currency yet it can be used to purchase real-world goods and services however it is also just as fiat as it is not pegged to any solid commodity.

Inflation is a central point for the next 20 years as 300 coins are mined every hour on average. “Every four years, though, the minting rate is set to fall by a half. It will drop to 25 coins per block in 2013, to 12.5 coins in 2017, and so on, until the total supply plateaus at 21m or so around 2030.” The very definition of inflation until the plan of their plateau becomes a reality perhaps 20 years hence. Ceteris paribus even though it never is.

The instability is also key at this moment as just this last Friday Bitcoin suffered a massive crash from falling from just over $32 to just over $10 for each Bitcoin. Congratulations to all those profit takers, I expect more of the same due to this small and fragile market.

Not to mention a Bitcoin developer admitting that with sophisticated software the system is not so anonymous anyway and the Silk Road folks signaling their willingness to work with “authorities” if necessary.

Caveat emptor.

User avatar
iamse7en
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1468
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:19 pm

Re: Who knows about Bitcoin?

Postby iamse7en » Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:36 pm

Doug Casey on bitcoin.

AllTen
captain of 100
Posts: 113
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 9:35 pm

Re: Who knows about Bitcoin?

Postby AllTen » Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:20 pm

iamse7en wrote:Doug Casey on bitcoin.

Here's a different point of view from Doug's article

http://www.infowarhorse.com/the-economi ... wrong.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


After a very difficult week and lot's of bad press, the new Decentralized Digital Crypt-o-currency is still trading at a descent level (~$15+).


I am now supporting the the BITCOIN network with my own computer and backing its worth with my CPU/GPU power.

User avatar
iamse7en
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1468
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:19 pm

Re: Who knows about Bitcoin?

Postby iamse7en » Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:03 am

Doug Casey responds to his Bitcoin critics.

AllTen
captain of 100
Posts: 113
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 9:35 pm

Re: Who knows about Bitcoin?

Postby AllTen » Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:21 am

Well, Doug sure doesn't like it and that doesn't bother me. No body is forcing anybody to be a part of this.
That is probably why I like it so much. It's true free market in action and It's been a play ground where I have felt free.

My computer has mined over a $100 dollars in BTC so far (been running for 5 days). That doesn't count the electricity cost.

User avatar
iamse7en
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1468
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:19 pm

Re: Who knows about Bitcoin?

Postby iamse7en » Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:05 am

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news ... e-peak.ars" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Silver
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5073
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 3:31 pm

Re: Who knows about Bitcoin?

Postby Silver » Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:53 pm

I believe this thread is the oldest on LDSFF discussing bitcoin. The topic came up again a few months ago in one of my silver contest threads. When this thread started, the only talk was of bitcoin. Now there is bitcoin and bitcoin cash and litecoin and ether and ripple, etc. up to somewhere around 1,000 different types.

In retrospect, which is not being used to ridicule the comments made nearly six years ago, much of what is written, along with the in the articles linked, has been proven wrong.

Virtual currencies are too big to ignore now. Let's discuss.
As a prophet reveals the truth it divides the people. (T)he worldly either want to close the mouth of the prophet, or else act as if the prophet didn’t exist, rather than repent of their sins. Popularity is never a test of truth. Ezra Taft Benson

nvr
captain of 100
Posts: 345
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2008 5:58 am

Re: Who knows about Bitcoin?

Postby nvr » Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:22 pm

I've shared my background with Bitcoin before, but here's a few thoughts I've had recently after listening to some of the debate given its recent price gains:
It's not really private - a record is kept of every transaction made. If an institution or government had the interest and resources, you and your purchases could be identified from the blockchain.
It's not tangible - the network that recognizes the value relies on power grid to operate and would be useless in aftermath of war / emp attack.
It's not really secure - I had all my bitcoins stolen by malware (or Microsoft engineer) which had somehow found the bitcoin wallet on my pc, grabbed my private key and sent all 24 bitcoins to themselves
This last point was probably more my fault since I didn't encrypt the folder. But compared to precious metals stored inside a building, a bitcoin wallet held by lay users is in general much more vulnerable to virtual theft attempts. The right way to have done it would have been for me to have written down or printed off the private key (paper wallet) or at least stored it on a usb drive disconnected to internet. But then that is not very convenient when desiring to spend it.

Silver
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5073
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 3:31 pm

Re: Who knows about Bitcoin?

Postby Silver » Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:48 pm

https://www.coindesk.com/information/

A Beginner's Guide to Blockchain Technology
Bitcoin is a digital currency that is being used increasingly all over the world since its inception in 2009. In the years since, many other assets and forms of blockchain technology have been developed. Find out more about bitcoin, ethereum, blockchains, and enterprise distributed ledger technology and how they are being used and evolving with our straightforward guides.

GUIDE INDEX
What is Bitcoin?
It's a decentralized digital currency
Why Use Bitcoin?
It's fast, cheap to use, and secure
How Can I Buy Bitcoins?
From an exchange or an individual
How to Buy Bitcoin in the UK
Buying bitcoin in the UK
How to Store Your Bitcoins
Use a digital or paper wallet
As a prophet reveals the truth it divides the people. (T)he worldly either want to close the mouth of the prophet, or else act as if the prophet didn’t exist, rather than repent of their sins. Popularity is never a test of truth. Ezra Taft Benson

User avatar
BeNotDeceived
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1109
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:55 am
Contact:

Re: Who knows about Bitcoin?

Postby BeNotDeceived » Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:11 pm

iamse7en wrote:
Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:38 am
JulesGP wrote:
jonesde wrote: The flip side is that it does not represent ANY real value other than what people give it
Doesn't that pretty much describe the USD though??
Essentially, you could say that's true about gold as well, but gold has certain characteristics that has always made the preferred money since the beginning of time.

{flash=480,270}http://www.youtube.com/v/r-o79vfBDJ4{/flash}
Hey cool, :ymapplause: but flash code won't work for me. :-( oh, well.

Gold is finite, but prolly abundant deep within the Earth = bad.

Energy applied over time is called work and is of real value. Cryptos represent work, but unfortunately they represent the waste thereof.

IF ... then we will have developed the perfect currency ... http://www.theperfectcurrency.org/main- ... y-currency

In lieu of storage there's certified capacity to produce.

That's from Silver's thread.

The recent hurricanes bore surprising and timely similarity to financial indicators such as GDP. Prosperity didn't have a rigorous definition, so I patterned after that of a recession.

Psychosis and Neurosis are similar with one being a greater condition than the other. Tropical storms have more tangible definitions. So too, should financial conditions. Depression applies to all three. Good weather and good financial conditions aren't so well defined.

Fusion is what powers the sun and is several orders of magnitude greater than our earthy (terrestrial) experience of chemical energy. Were we to harness fusion we would have something of amazing (celestial) value.

Joules are an aptly named unit of work, but are really small. Food Calories are actually 1000 calories. 1000 years is as a day. These are example of things that differ in orders of magnitude, which is loosely defined to mean 1000 times greater.

Energy consumption is the best indicator of a wealthy nation. Cold Fusion would make fossil fuels practically worthless, so its best to define a currency on what it can do. That way we don't get stuck with a worthless stockpile. Kinda like having a ginormous collection of cassette tapes, although vinyl records are making a comeback.

Just some random thoughts that may come in handy when the debt bomb finally does go boom. Here's what I think would make for a new coin based on the energy dollar:

Image ImageImage Image ImageImage Image

Here's our two cents ;) Image ImageSun Shining. Go Caching. Be Smiling!

Same size as what's on the 1$ bill, with a value = 1 GigaJoule. Image

Image
Proof is the antithesis of faith. It’s often what you don’t say that makes the greater statement. Not all truth is provable.
My Christmas wish comes true on the Real Christmas. Thank God I'm only watching the game, controlling it. —Chess

Everybody's heard

harakim
captain of 100
Posts: 419
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:08 pm
Location: Near Lehi, Utah

Re: Who knows about Bitcoin?

Postby harakim » Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:43 pm


Silver
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5073
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 3:31 pm

Re: Who knows about Bitcoin?

Postby Silver » Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:18 am

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-09-1 ... currencies

The idea for Blockchain has been around much longer than I realized.

http://kk.org/mt-files/outofcontrol/ch12-b.html


Encryption always wins because it follows the logic of the Net. A given public-key encryption key can eventually be cracked by a supercomputer working on the problem long enough. Those who have codes they don't want cracked try to stay ahead of the supercomputers by increasing the length of their keys (the longer a key, the harder it is to crack) -- but at the cost of making the safeguard more unwieldy and slow to use. However, any code can be deciphered given enough time or money. As Eric Hughes often reminds fellow cypherpunks, "Encryption is economics. Encryption is always possible, just expensive." It took Adi Shamir a year to break a 120-digit key using a network of distributed Sun workstations working part-time. A person could use a key so long that no supercomputer could crack it for the foreseeable future, but it would be awkward to use in daily life. A building-full of NSA's specially hot-rodded supercomputers might take a day to crack a 140-digit code today. But that is a full day of big iron to open just one lousy key!

Cypherpunks intend to level the playing field against centralized computer resources with the Fax Effect. If you have the only fax machine in the world it is worth nothing. But for every other fax installed in the world, your fax machine increases in value. In fact, the more faxes in the world, the more valuable everybody's fax becomes. This is the logic of the Net, also known as the law of increasing returns. It goes contrary to classical economic theories of wealth based on equilibratory tradeoff. These state that you can't get something from nothing. The truth is, you can. (Only now are a few radical economics professors formalizing this notion.) Hackers, cypherpunks, and many hi-tech entrepreneurs already know that. In network economics, more brings more. This is why giving things away so often works, and why the cypherpunks want to pass out their tools gratis. It has less to do with charity than with the clear intuition that network economics reward the more and not the less -- and you can seed the "more" at the start by giving the tools away. (The cypherpunks also talk about using the economics of the Net for the reverse side of encryption: to crack codes. They could assemble a people's supercomputer by networking together a million Macintoshes, each one computing a coordinated little part of a huge, distributed decryption program. In theory, such a decentralized parallel
As a prophet reveals the truth it divides the people. (T)he worldly either want to close the mouth of the prophet, or else act as if the prophet didn’t exist, rather than repent of their sins. Popularity is never a test of truth. Ezra Taft Benson

Silver
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5073
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 3:31 pm

Re: Who knows about Bitcoin?

Postby Silver » Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:18 pm

Look at this list! I think this is getting too big to ignore. I'm not sure if there is anything nefarious lurking behind all this, but it wouldn't hurt to be aware of what is happening.

https://coinmarketcap.com/all/views/all/
As a prophet reveals the truth it divides the people. (T)he worldly either want to close the mouth of the prophet, or else act as if the prophet didn’t exist, rather than repent of their sins. Popularity is never a test of truth. Ezra Taft Benson

User avatar
iWriteStuff
blithering blabbermouth
Posts: 3554
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:31 am
Location: Sinope

Re: Who knows about Bitcoin?

Postby iWriteStuff » Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:01 pm

Silver wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:18 pm
Look at this list! I think this is getting too big to ignore. I'm not sure if there is anything nefarious lurking behind all this, but it wouldn't hurt to be aware of what is happening.

https://coinmarketcap.com/all/views/all/
Allow me to play Devil's Advocate!

A) Bitcoin is a misnomer. There is no coin, per se, just a transferable credit. This presupposes that someone wants to accept payment in digital credits.
B) Where'd all the talk about Constitutional Money go? What's constitutional about cryptocurrencies? They seem more like a super fiat - medium of exchange backed by nothing, created by an independent party, sold by an independent party, and useful in only a limited number of economic transactions.
C) I only buy things with intrinsic value. Example:
1) Gold/Silver/Copper - they can be used for things other than as a medium of exchange.
2) Stocks - designates ownership in a business entity - entitles one to voting rights.
3) Bonds - corporate debt - in the event of default of said corporation, I am entitled to a percentage of their assets.
4) Treasuries - promises to pay backed by the U.S. Government
5) US Dollars - I like these the least, because they are fiat (backed by nothing but the "good faith and credit" of the U.S. govt, BUT they are the only thing accepted as payment of taxes. THAT is their intrinsic value, outside of their primary function as a medium of exchange.
D) ICOs are coming under increased scrutiny by the U.S. Govt (specifically SEC at the moment and eventually Dept of Treasury). The Ledger ties you to activity with a medium of exchange that could be made illegal at some future point. Your info is tied to the transactions. In short, they are designed to track you. I like this less. At least with cold, hard cash I can buy things anonymously.
E) If I can't hold it in my hand, I don't own it.

Them's my thoughts, but I'm open to edumacation!
"Every step in the direction of increasing one's personal holdings is a step away from Zion."

Hugh Nibley

User avatar
iWriteStuff
blithering blabbermouth
Posts: 3554
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:31 am
Location: Sinope

Re: Who knows about Bitcoin?

Postby iWriteStuff » Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:28 pm

Oh, and

F) They are currently the most speculative investment out there. Speculators are not the same as investors. I know there are some investors in Bitcoin, LiteCoin, Ripple, etc, but they are vastly overwhelmed by people pumping money in there just because they are "hot" at the moment. The minute the momentum shifts, the value plummets and you have to convert back to US Dollars. This is why there are swings of 20% up and down almost every day. That's a sign of speculation, not investment.
G) Smarter minds than mine have referred to the cryptocurrency market as a "bubble". And sometimes "super bubble". This is linked to the observation in F, that they are mostly pumped by speculators.
H) Cryptocurrencies are purchased using government-backed currencies (ie: USD, Yen, Yuan, Euro, etc). All a central bank needs to do to blow up the currency is create a department to 1) buy a massive load of said digital currency and then 2) dump it during thin market hours. This is the same thing they do with Gold and Silver futures contracts at the Comex now, but they can do it much easier with Cryptocurrencies given the clandestine nature of their markets. In short, any Central Bank can kill them any time they want because they have unlimited resources to destroy them. Heck, they could even pump and dump as a source of revenue for the bank's balance sheet.
I) Referring back to H, since Cryptocurrencies are denominated in value based on a government-backed currency, which is ultimately more important? The product or the currency in which it is denominated? If you're saying "Yeah I booked a 20% profit when I sold my Bitcoins", you're saying you valued the US Dollar more than the Bitcoin - hence you sold. Doesn't that imply that you're really more interested in obtaining profits on the US Dollar? What, then, does that say about the intrinsic value of the Bitcoin?

I'd add that I think the future of currency in general is going towards cryptocurrencies. You'll know the "official" cryptocurrency because it will be the only one the government accepts as payment for taxes. All others will have to weigh their value in comparison to that currency (which hasn't been introduced yet). Even other cryptocurrencies will be available for purchase in transactions denominated by this main government-sponsored cryptocurrency. Banks will love it, too, because it will be available for them to create out of nothing (like current fiat) and the government will love it because they can also track all your purchases due to the ledger feature.

Could also be that I'm missing out on the opportunity of a lifetime.
"Every step in the direction of increasing one's personal holdings is a step away from Zion."

Hugh Nibley

Silver
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5073
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 3:31 pm

Re: Who knows about Bitcoin?

Postby Silver » Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:23 am

All good points, IWS. Thanks for sharing them.

It's time for full disclosure. Although my posts above have been intended merely to inform and not necessarily to support cryyptocurrencies, I admit that I have recently purchased some. I now own Bitcoin (BTC), Litecoin (LTC) and Ether (ETH). I intend to diversify into a few other currencies, but only in small amounts. For me, for now, this is an educational process.

I feel confident that I'm not doing anything illegal or unconstitutional by merely owning cryptocurrencies. Since they are not issued by a government entity (as far as I know), I equate them to stocks. The issuers of these coins have some technology/trade secret/network that has some value. Are they possibly overvalued? Without a doubt. Are they all -- every single one of them -- overvalued? I'm not sure. Again, in order to force myself to learn more, I have purchased a small amount.

Whenever I recommend precious metals to someone for the first time, I always add: Don't buy them with your grocery money, or your rent money. The same advice applies to cryptocurrencies. I only buy with money that I do not need to survive.

As you know, travel to a foreign country always provides an encounter with a nosy question from the government authorities at the border. You are required to supply an answer as to whether or not you are carrying on your person US$10,000 or its equivalent. With your cryptocurrency wallet and password, you can cross a border with nothing in your hands or pockets and still possess many multiples of that amount while truthfully answering the question with a "No." Like a debit card, I guess. Only you don't even need to have a card.

Finally, anyone who knows the truth of what happened at Jekyll Island all those years ago, knows that there is no currency more cryptic and evil than the Federal Reserve note (well, soon to be replaced by SDRs). Whenever you listen to some of the creators of the cryptocurrencies, they speak of "fiat" and they speak of technology. That's refreshing to me. There is a growing segment of our population who are learning, for the first time in many cases, the truth about government-issued debt instruments like Federal Reserve Hiney Wipes. Only Jesus Christ will ultimately abolish the Gadiantons of our day, but if we can expose them now, even in a small way, I'm on board.
As a prophet reveals the truth it divides the people. (T)he worldly either want to close the mouth of the prophet, or else act as if the prophet didn’t exist, rather than repent of their sins. Popularity is never a test of truth. Ezra Taft Benson

Silver
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5073
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 3:31 pm

Re: Who knows about Bitcoin?

Postby Silver » Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:56 am

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-09-1 ... all-street

It's Official: "Long Bitcoin" Is The Most Crowded Trade On Wall Street

Tyler Durden's picture
by Tyler Durden
Sep 12, 2017 7:48 AM

... at least according to BofA's latest, just released monthly Fund Managers Survey, in which 181 participants with $549bn in AUM responded to dozens of questions, among which "what do you think is the most crowded trade." In September, for the first time ever, the top answer, per 26% of respondents, was Bitcoin, (which as BofA handily reminds us was up as much as 344% YTD), #2 was "long Nasdaq" (up 20% YTD) according to 22% of fund managers, while the "Short US Dollars" (-11% YTD) was third at 21%. Note: long US$ was most crowded trade as recently as Mar'17.

Of course, this does not mean that everyone is long bitcoin; it just means that everyone thinks everyone else is long bitcoin...
As a prophet reveals the truth it divides the people. (T)he worldly either want to close the mouth of the prophet, or else act as if the prophet didn’t exist, rather than repent of their sins. Popularity is never a test of truth. Ezra Taft Benson

User avatar
iWriteStuff
blithering blabbermouth
Posts: 3554
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:31 am
Location: Sinope

Re: Who knows about Bitcoin?

Postby iWriteStuff » Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:04 am

Silver wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:23 am
I feel confident that I'm not doing anything illegal or unconstitutional by merely owning cryptocurrencies.

...

As you know, travel to a foreign country always provides an encounter with a nosy question from the government authorities at the border. You are required to supply an answer as to whether or not you are carrying on your person US$10,000 or its equivalent. With your cryptocurrency wallet and password, you can cross a border with nothing in your hands or pockets and still possess many multiples of that amount while truthfully answering the question with a "No." Like a debit card, I guess. Only you don't even need to have a card.
Odd pairing of statements, Silver. First you say you're not doing anything illegal by owning them, then you go on to say how you can use them to transport funds internationally without having to declare them to Customs. To that point, here's how they define illicit trade in the Customs world:
National customs and border control agencies typically have a parallel mandate in which to facilitate the flows of licit and legal trade while concurrently deterring illicit and illegal trade. Illicit trade encompasses a diverse range of commodities and services that creates the formation of black markets around the world.
- Gautam Basu, Combating illicit trade and transnational smuggling: key challenges for customs and border control agencies, World Customs Journal, Vol. 8, No. 2
I think it's pretty much a given now that the primary uses of Bitcoin exist within the black market economy. Just look up "Silk Road" or try looking up "bitcoin black market". Almost since its inception, Bitcoin has been a black market tool. That makes it a target. Which brings me to my next point:

Congress is trying to pass bills to make it a requirement that you declare how much cryptocurrency you have in your possession when you cross the border:
New US Legislation Would Force Travelers to Declare Bitcoin, Digital Assets
Papers please!

P. H. Madore on 19/06/2017

Since the problems of immigration and illegal immigration have been brought to the forefront of the national conversation, one thing that is frequently said by opponents of enhanced immigration enforcement and other additional measures by the government is that laws are already in place which effectively achieve the ends desired, and that more laws are not only unnecessary, but unlikely to be any more effective.

The same can be said of the United States’ money laundering laws. While they are not bulletproof, and while they do not prevent money laundering from happening (as laws do not inherently prevent anything at all from happening), they do punish those who get caught trying to cheat the system. A new bill (S. 1241) introduced by Senator Chuck Grassley specifically targets Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies and ties them in with terrorist financing and money laundering, making demands on subordinate agencies to find methods of blocking certain cryptocurrencies and digital assets allegedly tied to so-called terrorism. Specifically, agencies involved (such as ICE and the TSA) have to find out a way to “interdict” digital currencies and compile a report within 18 months for:

[D]etailing a strategy to interdict and detect prepaid access devices, digital currencies, or other similar instruments, at border crossings and other ports of entry for the United States.

Additional provisions in the bill make it such that simply having a blank check, which is signed and can be drawn on an account that has more than $10,000, is considered carrying more than $10,000 and must be declared. This bit is Orwellian in natures, since someone may have no clue how much is in the account of the person who gave them the check.

While cutting off the financing of groups which are dedicated to senseless murder and the establishment of religious states is an admirable goal, the question of how these changes to existing law will actually achieve that has to be examined. For starters, existing regulations already make it illegal to fund or assist a terrorist organization in any way. Then, most such organizations have an all but impossible task if they want to use anything outside of cash. Cash is already highly detectable by border agencies in a number of ways, and in some ways as difficult to smuggle as are drugs. The second problem arises when you consider what they are doing here – regulating incoming money without providing any proof that it would or could do anything to prevent domestic terrorist activities.

Thus, it comes as no surprise that many libertarians and cryptoanarchists automatically view this move as a way to criminalize traveling with bitcoins. Luckily for the average bitcoiner, it’s trivial to hide bitcoins, and the agencies that have been directed to detect them will have a serious hurdle in so doing. Those who are more interested in following the law to the letter are more than welcome to declare the full amount and accounting of their bitcoins, but ultimately it is left up to the agent’s discretion as to whether or not your money is involved in a crime, and Bitcoin is generally treated the same as cash.

The cryptographic nature of cryptocurrencies, it seems, will become more important than ever in the coming days. What they don’t know is not there cannot be demanded from one, yet we would of course prefer a more just world where the government was not so interested in seizing every bit of wealth private citizens extract from the economy for themselves with no help from said government and, in the case of cryptocurrency operations, little or no protection not to mention yearly hassles of noticeable scale.
https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/new-us- ... al-assets/

This is only the first law coming down the pike to reign in cryptocurrencies. More are likely coming. There is a bulls eye on anything that could be used in the Black Market, and this is especially true of anything that claims to rival government-sponsored fiat. I haven't discussed the NSA hack attempts on blockchain or the conspiracy theories about how "Satoshi" may just be a nom-de-plume of the CIA.

Suffice it to say I think your advice to avoid putting your grocery cash there would be well heeded! :!:
"Every step in the direction of increasing one's personal holdings is a step away from Zion."

Hugh Nibley

User avatar
iWriteStuff
blithering blabbermouth
Posts: 3554
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:31 am
Location: Sinope

Re: Who knows about Bitcoin?

Postby iWriteStuff » Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:36 am

Full Disclaimer: I don't own any cryptocurrencies. I am too much of a wimp. There be sharks in them thar waters, and I ain't the fastest swimmer in the ocean!
"Every step in the direction of increasing one's personal holdings is a step away from Zion."

Hugh Nibley

Silver
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5073
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 3:31 pm

Re: Who knows about Bitcoin?

Postby Silver » Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:54 am

IWS, your post brings up an interesting dilemma. If a woman gets on an airplane bound for a foreign country holding a debit card with an available balance of $10,000 and doesn't declare the card at her destination port of entry, is she in violation of any laws?

If the same woman arrives in a foreign country with no financial instruments and only a memorized password to her bitcoin account that happens to be valued in excess of $10,000, has she broken any laws when she does not declare the account? The better question may be: In the near future, will she be in violation?

Are cryptocurrencies used in unrighteous/illegal activities? Without a doubt. Just like guns. Who's the baddie, the gun or the guy holding it in the act of murder? Long before bitcoin existed, every sort of horrible thing we can think of was happening which will continue to be the case until Christ returns. Is your point that by merely owning cryptocurrencies one is, even unconsciously, supporting evil because they are primarily used in the black market economy? Perhaps you better define "black market" because many Venezuelans are surviving by buying basic foodstuffs on the so-called black market.

Blockchain technology has some beneficial results like providing a vehicle to store something of value for poor people around the world who have cellphones but no bank account. Think Asia, Africa and South America. (For example, https://www.omise.co/ )

I hope others will chime in with their thoughts. Am I the only one on LDSFF who owns crypto?
As a prophet reveals the truth it divides the people. (T)he worldly either want to close the mouth of the prophet, or else act as if the prophet didn’t exist, rather than repent of their sins. Popularity is never a test of truth. Ezra Taft Benson

Silver
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5073
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 3:31 pm

Re: Who knows about Bitcoin?

Postby Silver » Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:41 am

Multiple links, images, and video in the article can be seen by clicking on the link immediately below:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-09-1 ... losing-bit

hedgeless_horseman's E-Z Internet Guide To Safely Buying and Then Conveniently Losing Bitcoin in a Tragic Boating Accident

hedgeless_horseman's picture
by hedgeless_horseman
Sep 11, 2017 4:57 PM
0
SHARES
TwitterFacebookReddit
"We fear what we do not understand."

You may have read my ZeroHedge article, hedgeless_horseman's E-Z Internet Guide On How To Actually Buy Gold, and Not Just Talk About It, Bitchezzz!!!! This past June, at the First ZeroHedge Symposium and Live Fight Club in Marfa, I learned some good information from Ken and Jonathon about disintermediation using crypto currencies during their excellent talk, "Rise of New Financial Ecosystems - How to Make it Work For You."

Like other sympopsium attendees, after listening to the talk, I felt confident enough to return home and begin aquiring some firsthand experience with cryptocurrencies. Now, just three months later, I bring to you, dear ZH readers, hedgeless_horseman's E-Z Internet Guide To Safely Buying and Then Conveniently Losing Bitcoin in a Tragic Boating Accident.

It's so E-Z even an old goldbug can do it!

First, buy a Trezor Hardware Wallet. Yes, they are probably most conveneintly available at Amazon, the go-fund-me site for Jeff Bezos' political blog known as, The Washington Post. If you would rather not be an enabler of Jeff's propaganda, here is another site that appears to sell them in the USA: https://cryptowalletsupply.com/ Please, let us all know in the comment section, below, if you have a better source.

Second, while you are waiting for the Trezor to arrive in the mail...it is a piece of hardware after all...open a Coinbase account on line at: https://www.coinbase.com/

Yes, I understand that Coinbase is a fudging bank, for all intents and purposes, and I am aware of at least a few of the risks of using their service, only some of which can be easily mitigated. I will touch on some tactics in a moment, if you keep reading. Please, remember that this is an E-Z Internet Guide, intended to help other neophytes like me gain firsthand experience with cryptocurrencies. Coinbase does, in fact, make it easy to buy Bitcoin, at least relative to the other online options currently available. There are, of course, costs in addition to risks. Expect Coinbase to charge you a fee of about $19.18 to purchase $480.82 of BTC using a Visa Debit Card. Once again, please, let us all know in the comment section, if you have a safer, better, and/or cheaper solution.

When setting up a Coinbase account, I discovered that I could buy Bitcoin, Ethereum, or LiteCoin using either a wire transfer, checking account, or bank card. If I upload a photo ID, to authenticate my bank account, then I am, "rewarded," with higher weekly purchase limits. I understand that there are probably much more secretive ways of buying Bitcoin, but why? I learned in Marfa that, unlike gold coins, Bitcoin transactions are not anonymous, and are rather quite the opposite. It seems to me that for BTC purchases, secure is far more important than secret. If you disagree, then you can probably find someone on Craig's List that will sell you some BTC for cash at midnight behind the Bowling Alley.

This is not an article about WHY you should buy bitcoin. The main goal of this article is to spur some discussion about the practical aspects of HOW you can buy Bitcoin, safely, and then lose it in a convenient fashion. I also hope to communicate my personal experience that the process is not insurmountable, but neither is it very convenient. It may, however, be relatively safe, thanks mostly to the cool little gadget known as a Trezor.

John McAfee, the computer security expert that vowed to eat his own d*** on live television if BTC does not rise to $500,000 inside of three years, recommends Trezor.

Talk about having some skin in the game.

August 25, 2017
Excerpt from an interview with John McAfee

Interviewer: “Is there any way to secure your bitcoins once you have earned them?”

"Absolutely! I think mine are secure. But the only way to do it is offline. You can buy devices, my favorite one is Trezor and the reason is, is because your seed keys. When you first create a wallet it gives you a thing called seed keys. Its a list of words, random words. Car, shoelace, dog, cow, whatever. These are your seed keys. Randomly generated to the point that theres no way anybody could ever guess them in the right order.

… Whats nice about the Trezor device, is it has a tiny little screen that shows you the seed keys on this screen not your smart phone, not your laptop, not your desktop. But on that device. So no hacker can access them. Then once you put your bitcoin into the wallet, unplug it, bury it in the back yard, hide it under your mattress, whatever you want to do with it like it was real cash.

But to keep the wallet on any intelligent device (referring to online wallets) whether its your laptop, desktop or any mobile device is insane, it will get stolen.”

Once your Trezor arrives, make sure that the Trezor's secure packaging is intact, then follow the instructions that come with it. They will walk you through setting up a Trezor Wallet on the internet, and your Trezor hardware device.

After you have completed these instructions, and hidden both paper copies of your list of seed key code words, read this article about how and why to, "Hide Your TREZOR Wallets with Multiple Passphrases." Hidden Trezor wallets are the technological equivalent of losing your gold in a boating accident. Good luck proving I didn't.

In the age when security services might detain you until you decrypt your hard drive, or border guards might threaten to deny you entry until you reveal your phone’s PIN, it is only a matter of time before the state authorities discover what Bitcoin hardware wallets are (maybe they did already). When they do, what can stop them from forcing you to unlock and reveal your wallet?

This is not only limited to governments though, look at the classic $5 wrench example...

With this or a similar set up you are now able to produce a decoy wallet under duress or during government controls. Since there is no way to prove that there is any wallet beyond the ones that you have admitted to, the “attacker” will have to be satisfied with the revealed ones.

Also, for national security purposes, you have unlocked and “decrypted” your device and therefore you have fully complied with the security control.

Pro Tip

When crossing borders (or even during daily usage), you can always turn Passphrase Encryption off and on repeatedly. If you turn it off, the passphrase-protected wallets will not be deleted, but the passphrase input form will disappear from the GUI. This creates an illusion that passphrases were never used in the first place?—?one cannot accuse you of having hidden wallets. When needed, turn the feature back on and use your passphrases as usual.


https://blog.trezor.io/hide-your-trezor ... passphrase...


Next, buy some Bitcoin in your Coinbase account, then send it to your Trazor wallet. You can generate a new receive address for your Trazor each time, to at least try to fudge with the crypto-transaction tracking software being used by the revenuers.

Last, but not least, consider the benefits of dollar cost averaging, which is buying the same dollar amount of BTC every week, month, or quarter, to lower your average purchase price in a rising market, and therefore increase your rate of return. I described this proven strategy in the article about buying gold coins, and it works the same for BTC.

If you do happen to lose your Trezor in a boating accident, you can always recover your Bitcoin by using your list of seed code words. No SCUBA gear required!

Peace, prosperity, love, and liberty!
As a prophet reveals the truth it divides the people. (T)he worldly either want to close the mouth of the prophet, or else act as if the prophet didn’t exist, rather than repent of their sins. Popularity is never a test of truth. Ezra Taft Benson

Silver
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5073
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 3:31 pm

Re: Who knows about Bitcoin?

Postby Silver » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:23 am

nvr wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:22 pm
I've shared my background with Bitcoin before, but here's a few thoughts I've had recently after listening to some of the debate given its recent price gains:
It's not really private - a record is kept of every transaction made. If an institution or government had the interest and resources, you and your purchases could be identified from the blockchain.
It's not tangible - the network that recognizes the value relies on power grid to operate and would be useless in aftermath of war / emp attack.
It's not really secure - I had all my bitcoins stolen by malware (or Microsoft engineer) which had somehow found the bitcoin wallet on my pc, grabbed my private key and sent all 24 bitcoins to themselves
This last point was probably more my fault since I didn't encrypt the folder. But compared to precious metals stored inside a building, a bitcoin wallet held by lay users is in general much more vulnerable to virtual theft attempts. The right way to have done it would have been for me to have written down or printed off the private key (paper wallet) or at least stored it on a usb drive disconnected to internet. But then that is not very convenient when desiring to spend it.
I have a question about the highlighted comment, addressed to anyone who knows the answer.

If hackers -- governmental or otherwise -- can expose this sort of information, why hasn't it already happened? Wouldn't there be extreme satisfaction on the part of the hacker in publishing data which shows that John Doe owns $10 million in bitcoins? Even if the hacker couldn't access the coins and could only expose the owner's ID, it seems like that would be a more common event -- common enough that we would hear about it.

I'm sorry to read that you lost your 24 BTC. That would amount to a tidy sum right now. Do you have no intention in trying to mine anything else? A company called NEM issues a currency called XEM which is apparently easier to "harvest."
As a prophet reveals the truth it divides the people. (T)he worldly either want to close the mouth of the prophet, or else act as if the prophet didn’t exist, rather than repent of their sins. Popularity is never a test of truth. Ezra Taft Benson


Return to “General Discussions”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: BeNotDeceived, Ezra, gardener4life, moving2zion, PressingForward, Sarah, Silver, Tbmbro, True and 122 guests