[Deleted]

[lemuel]

Alma was baptizing Helam long before he met Mosiah. He had authority even though it came from wicked king Noah.

No. Not King Noah

Mosiah 18:13 And when he had said these words, the Spirit of the Lord was upon him, and he said: Helam, I baptize thee, having authority from the Almighty God,

18 And it came to pass that Alma, having authority from God, ordained priests;

Thank you. I should write more clearly. Alma had authority from God, despite having been put into his position by wicked king Noah.

[jdt]

Thank you for sharing your story jdt, it helped to shed some light on where you are coming from and what it is you are looking for. My experience in the church has been similar but different. I also noticed the repetition but have never felt bored or as if I had hit a wall in my progression or studies. I can imagine the frustration when you feel as if progression has halted, and can see why it may have caused you to look for something more. I heard a humorous phrase a while back about the church, “the best kept secret in the church is the gospel.” And in reality it isn’t that it is kept secret but my experience has been that we are not very good at sharing how the gospel is changing and transforming our life. If you go back and look at the content in the lessons it really is amazing but if those teaching or participating are not experiencing the fruits of the gospel that in turn shines through in their passions, participation, and spirit during the lesson that is not the fault of the church. That is the fault of everyone in that room either not experiencing the things that would create the “fire” that would light a “fire” in others or not appropriately sharing what they are experiencing. I can also tell you I have been in meetings, lessons, and heard talks where this has taken place and the result is nothing short a miracle and has caused in me an feeling so overwhelming to turn to God with full purpose of heart, to repent, and to strive with all the energy I have to serve others. The gospel really isn’t so “deep” in terms of what we are expected to know/do In my opinion. It is as deep as loving god and others and trying to do these two things with all of our hearts. From what I have seen talking about calling and election, or rending the veil, or many other “mysteries” causes the finantical to surface and pushes many further away from the reality of these blessings rather than simply focusing on the two great commandments with faith like a child that all things are possible with God recognizing that all of these blessings are available because his church is on the earth.

Kind words drtanner. Thank you.
The difference between what lies on the institution and what lies on the members is a tough one. The remnant is certainly not on a nice smooth ride to Zion either. You take away the institution, all that is left is you (well in this case me). And that needs a lot of work! It sounds great to take care of the poor among you, until the rubber hits the road and you see that people are making bad financial decisions and asking for help. Every couple of weeks asking for help. And showing a sense of entitlement and little gratitude. My heart still needs a lot of work. And yes there are fanatics in the remnant too (as you say they are drawn to some subjects).
But the institution does bear some responsibility as well. If you have 48 lessons a year at 50 minutes a piece, that give less than 5 minutes per page of lesson time for the Book of Mormon. That text deserves more, a lot more. But you need very well studied teachers or a slower pace is even more boring and tortuous. But there really is no flexibility to adapt. Many find it a great thing "that people all over the world are getting the exact same lesson today". To me that is more a sign of the lack of the Spirit directing.
Part of me wanted to post on the thread about educating adult members without losing them. I did not want to divert an important topic, so I did not post. But I may say here what I think on the subject (this thread is already loaded with my tainted opinion so this does not derail anything). My background is important to my perspective though. I joined the church at 16 because of the doctrine and teachings. I was not born into it, it was not for familial or social reasons. Here goes: I think it first starts with being honest with ourselves and others about our lives (we will get to church history in a second). I like what Bill Reel had to say about this. (Paraphrasing) When he was Bishop there were many instances where he felt like he received clear direction from heaven. But in many cases he did not receive that same direction. Not in a negative (don't do this), just well nothing. And sometime he had to make a decision/issue a calling. Now he felt this sort of cultural pressure to always state it came from the Lord, even when it really hadn't. This is being honest. Many years ago Elder Oaks spoke in conference about priesthood blessings and mentioned that sometimes he has no idea what to say. This is being honest. I think our meetings should have a healthy dose of accounts of our (people today's) failures with a mixture of success stories. We are a fallen people. Even with Christ's atonement, we still by our nature are prone to sin continually, we never overcome the weakness of the flesh. And that is why Christ came! We will never overcome sin ourselves. And when we come together in that spirit, we see others struggles and we feel mercy and compassion. We want to reach out with love. And when we think of our own struggles, we see Brothers and Sisters in Christ who have similar ones, some of them who have been able to have positive spiritual experiences that seem quite attainable and you are uplifted.
Now there is a different spirit (and in my observation the dominant one in the church) that I will typify with 2 examples let's go back to Elder Oaks who said "We don't give apologies" in the context of what the church does at a general level. And then Elder Bednar (paraphrasing), young women if you are romantically interested in a young man, ask him if he has ever viewed pornography and if he flinches or says yes, run! Really the only way forward with this spirit is to cover your sins, to act like you don't have any. Always present a good face forward. Only tell success stories. When we come together with this spirit, we feel judgment and condemnation for others. And when we think of our own struggles, we often see others who appear flawless and get a sense of depression wondering what is wrong with us.
If we have the former spirit, we can be much more open and honest about church history. Brigham Young had what we would now call racist statements that were pretty common for the time. If you have the first spirit, it is not a big deal, we don't expect anyone to be perfect. Then we can talk about the Hugh B Brown's who saw the problem and tried to fix it. And then we can appreciate the difficulty in changing a long standing policy. If we have the latter and issue no apologies, it is really just best to cover the whole thing up. Act like it did not happen.
We can also be more honest about the things we don't know. With the second spirit, there is a tendency to always be in control, to have every answer. With the former, it is okay to be unsure. A little speculation is perfectly fine. So Joseph had multiple accounts of the first vision, and some seemingly important details are different. We could have a set of former Bishops (or any person for that matter) in any ward discuss first hand how they have received inspiration from heaven to only have mis-interpreted it at first and understand the full meaning later. Sometimes it takes many years for the full accounting to be understood. The things that were details that you think are important change.

Let me share one experience. As a person in the remnant, I take the interpretation that the Saints in Joseph's day largely failed to accept what was offered. Their attempt at Zion in Missouri failed. By Nauvoo, they had lost the fulness of the priesthood. The Lord gave them an opportunity to get it back with the promise that they would not be moved if they did their part. Instead the Prophet and Patriarch were killed, the temple was destroyed (twice), and they sent to the wilderness like the children of Israel in Moses day. Now today, here we are trying to prepare for Zion. Guess what, we can't even draft a couple page document of our basic beliefs! We suck. When I look back at the early saints, my heart goes out. It is really hard to become of one heart and mind. I get it. I am just as fallen as they were (if not more). I reach out with compassion and not judgment. (Now yes if someone tries to tell me things were a stunning success, I have to judge the results, but I am not condemning the people). And this gives a small insight into who Christ is. He has carried all of our burdens, He knows them intimately. And He so readily forgives. As we progress too, we become the most forgiving of others as we know the difficulty of the path.
God bless

[silk]

Let me share one experience. As a person in the remnant, I take the interpretation that the Saints in Joseph's day largely failed to accept what was offered. Their attempt at Zion in Missouri failed. By Nauvoo, they had lost the fulness of the priesthood. The Lord gave them an opportunity to get it back with the promise that they would not be moved if they did their part. Instead the Prophet and Patriarch were killed, the temple was destroyed (twice), and they sent to the wilderness like the children of Israel in Moses day. Now today, here we are trying to prepare for Zion. Guess what, we can't even draft a couple page document of our basic beliefs! We suck. When I look back at the early saints, my heart goes out. It is really hard to become of one heart and mind. I get it. I am just as fallen as they were (if not more). I reach out with compassion and not judgment. (Now yes if someone tries to tell me things were a stunning success, I have to judge the results, but I am not condemning the people). And this gives a small insight into who Christ is. He has carried all of our burdens, He knows them intimately. And He so readily forgives. As we progress too, we become the most forgiving of others as we know the difficulty of the path.
God bless

I've been away because of illness, so I've mostly lost the progress of the thread. But from what I've read, it seems that your mind is made up about the LDS church, so I won't dwell more on that. Instead, I wanted to talk about some things you've mentioned, and it dovetails nicely with the quote above.

As I was musing, I pondered on our discussion about John the Baptist's claim to the keys because of lineage. That led me to ponder on the similarity between Moses and Joseph Smith. The Remnant claims that as Moses was removed from Israel and took the Melchizedek Priesthood keys with him, so Joseph Smith was removed in similar fashion. But when you dig into it, nothing seems to work. I can't figure out how, according to Remnant claims, the Aaronic Priesthood keys would have been available to wrest in 2014. That's because of one word: "lineage".

True, Moses was removed, and the Melchizedek Priesthood keys with him. But the Aaronic or Levitical Priesthood was able to remain because it was based on lineage. As long as there were descendants of Levi (and especially Aaron), everything would function as it should. As you correctly pointed out, John the Baptist had a lineal right to the keys.

After the Savior came, however, the lineal requirement was removed. Men could receive the priesthood regardless of their lineage, and they could officiate in the ordinances of the Aaronic Priesthood because it was a subset of the Melchizedek Priesthood. Then there was the Great Apostasy, and everything fell apart. The keys were lost. Then the Restoration, and Melchizedek keys restored, including as a subset the Aaronic Priesthood keys.

So what would have happened after Joseph and the Melchizedek Priesthood keys were removed?

Men with valid ordinations would still have their Melchizedek Priesthood, but they wouldn't be able to give it to anyone else. That means that within a generation, all Melchizedek Priesthood would be gone. And with it would go all those who could officiate in the office of bishop (unless they were literal descendants of Aaron). It gets worse, though, because even those who had the Melchizedek Priesthood could not be a bishop unless he was ordained through Melchizedek Priesthood keys. So only those who were bishops at the time the Melchizedek Priesthood keys were removed would be able to officiate in the ordinances of the Aaronic Priesthood.

Wait, though, the worst is yet to come. Even if there was a descendant of Aaron, he still wouldn't be able to have the keys, because D&C 68 says he also has to be ordained under the hands of the Melchizedek Priesthood keys to make it work in this dispensation.

So what's the consequence of that? As soon as that generation died off, all Aaronic Priesthood keys would go with them. I can't figure out any other way to make it work based on the scriptures. Can you?

This is the part of D&C 68 that corresponds to the discussion.

14 There remain hereafter, in the due time of the Lord, other bishops to be set apart unto the church, to minister even according to the first;

15 Wherefore they shall be high priests who are worthy, and they shall be appointed by the First Presidency of the Melchizedek Priesthood, except they be literal descendants of Aaron.
...
18 No man has a legal right to this office [bishop], to hold the keys of this priesthood, except he be a literal descendant and the firstborn of Aaron.

19 But, as a high priest of the Melchizedek Priesthood has authority to officiate in all the lesser offices he may officiate in the office of bishop when no literal descendant of Aaron can be found, provided he is called and set apart and ordained unto this power, under the hands of the First Presidency of the Melchizedek Priesthood.

20 And a literal descendant of Aaron, also, must be designated by this Presidency, and found worthy, and anointed, and ordained under the hands of this Presidency, otherwise they are not legally authorized to officiate in their priesthood.

[jdt]

Let me share one experience. As a person in the remnant, I take the interpretation that the Saints in Joseph's day largely failed to accept what was offered. Their attempt at Zion in Missouri failed. By Nauvoo, they had lost the fulness of the priesthood. The Lord gave them an opportunity to get it back with the promise that they would not be moved if they did their part. Instead the Prophet and Patriarch were killed, the temple was destroyed (twice), and they sent to the wilderness like the children of Israel in Moses day. Now today, here we are trying to prepare for Zion. Guess what, we can't even draft a couple page document of our basic beliefs! We suck. When I look back at the early saints, my heart goes out. It is really hard to become of one heart and mind. I get it. I am just as fallen as they were (if not more). I reach out with compassion and not judgment. (Now yes if someone tries to tell me things were a stunning success, I have to judge the results, but I am not condemning the people). And this gives a small insight into who Christ is. He has carried all of our burdens, He knows them intimately. And He so readily forgives. As we progress too, we become the most forgiving of others as we know the difficulty of the path.
God bless

I've been away because of illness, so I've mostly lost the progress of the thread. But from what I've read, it seems that your mind is made up about the LDS church, so I won't dwell more on that. Instead, I wanted to talk about some things you've mentioned, and it dovetails nicely with the quote above.

As I was musing, I pondered on our discussion about John the Baptist's claim to the keys because of lineage. That led me to ponder on the similarity between Moses and Joseph Smith. The Remnant claims that as Moses was removed from Israel and took the Melchizedek Priesthood keys with him, so Joseph Smith was removed in similar fashion. But when you dig into it, nothing seems to work. I can't figure out how, according to Remnant claims, the Aaronic Priesthood keys would have been available to wrest in 2014. That's because of one word: "lineage".

True, Moses was removed, and the Melchizedek Priesthood keys with him. But the Aaronic or Levitical Priesthood was able to remain because it was based on lineage. As long as there were descendants of Levi (and especially Aaron), everything would function as it should. As you correctly pointed out, John the Baptist had a lineal right to the keys.

After the Savior came, however, the lineal requirement was removed. Men could receive the priesthood regardless of their lineage, and they could officiate in the ordinances of the Aaronic Priesthood because it was a subset of the Melchizedek Priesthood. Then there was the Great Apostasy, and everything fell apart. The keys were lost. Then the Restoration, and Melchizedek keys restored, including as a subset the Aaronic Priesthood keys.

So what would have happened after Joseph and the Melchizedek Priesthood keys were removed?

Men with valid ordinations would still have their Melchizedek Priesthood, but they wouldn't be able to give it to anyone else. That means that within a generation, all Melchizedek Priesthood would be gone. And with it would go all those who could officiate in the office of bishop (unless they were literal descendants of Aaron). It gets worse, though, because even those who had the Melchizedek Priesthood could not be a bishop unless he was ordained through Melchizedek Priesthood keys. So only those who were bishops at the time the Melchizedek Priesthood keys were removed would be able to officiate in the ordinances of the Aaronic Priesthood.

Wait, though, the worst is yet to come. Even if there was a descendant of Aaron, he still wouldn't be able to have the keys, because D&C 68 says he also has to be ordained under the hands of the Melchizedek Priesthood keys to make it work in this dispensation.

So what's the consequence of that? As soon as that generation died off, all Aaronic Priesthood keys would go with them. I can't figure out any other way to make it work based on the scriptures. Can you?

This is the part of D&C 68 that corresponds to the discussion.

14 There remain hereafter, in the due time of the Lord, other bishops to be set apart unto the church, to minister even according to the first;

15 Wherefore they shall be high priests who are worthy, and they shall be appointed by the First Presidency of the Melchizedek Priesthood, except they be literal descendants of Aaron.
...
18 No man has a legal right to this office [bishop], to hold the keys of this priesthood, except he be a literal descendant and the firstborn of Aaron.

19 But, as a high priest of the Melchizedek Priesthood has authority to officiate in all the lesser offices he may officiate in the office of bishop when no literal descendant of Aaron can be found, provided he is called and set apart and ordained unto this power, under the hands of the First Presidency of the Melchizedek Priesthood.

20 And a literal descendant of Aaron, also, must be designated by this Presidency, and found worthy, and anointed, and ordained under the hands of this Presidency, otherwise they are not legally authorized to officiate in their priesthood.

I hope you get feeling better! Especially in time for Thanksgiving.
I think we are reaching an impasse.
Ultimately Joseph did not explain keys well enough and consistently enough for me to come to any certain conclusions on how they really operate, how they are passed along and so forth. The Book of Mormon and Bible are silent on the subject.
At the end of the day, the only thing I can come up with objectively to tell whether someone is sent from God or not, is the message that they carry. And I am quite comfortable stating and defending that Denver Snuffer has shared a superior message to that currently offered by the LDS Church. This is a debatable point, but one that from my observation Latter-Day Saints do not engage in. Instead, as you have done too, the topic is focused on keys. And when it comes to keys, no evidence is offered in support to demonstrate that the current Church leaders have them, only evidence to try to disqualify Denver/others. Which is fine. But this is really not discussable. I have asked for this in different words, but we can't really go forward you or someone else can give an objective criteria to define what key holders look like (besides they were ordained by someone who was ordained by someone who was ordained...). The fundamental sects also make that same claim just through a different line. Joseph said John was a legal administrator, but never really said what that looked like. I admit the question is not settled in my own mind. The only thing I can come up with is that they would have a message from God (which John had and shared). But LDS seem to reject that as a qualifier. So I ask then how do you objectively identify a key-holder? Is there really nothing other than he was ordained by someone who was ordained by someone who was ordained...?

As a side note, the original recording of D&C 68 did not include most of the bits you quoted:
http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper- ... -a-dc-68/2
I do not have the time today to look into when/how/who made the additions. Maybe it checks out, maybe it does not. I don't know. But I thought it worth mentioning.

[silk]

Let me share one experience. As a person in the remnant, I take the interpretation that the Saints in Joseph's day largely failed to accept what was offered. Their attempt at Zion in Missouri failed. By Nauvoo, they had lost the fulness of the priesthood. The Lord gave them an opportunity to get it back with the promise that they would not be moved if they did their part. Instead the Prophet and Patriarch were killed, the temple was destroyed (twice), and they sent to the wilderness like the children of Israel in Moses day. Now today, here we are trying to prepare for Zion. Guess what, we can't even draft a couple page document of our basic beliefs! We suck. When I look back at the early saints, my heart goes out. It is really hard to become of one heart and mind. I get it. I am just as fallen as they were (if not more). I reach out with compassion and not judgment. (Now yes if someone tries to tell me things were a stunning success, I have to judge the results, but I am not condemning the people). And this gives a small insight into who Christ is. He has carried all of our burdens, He knows them intimately. And He so readily forgives. As we progress too, we become the most forgiving of others as we know the difficulty of the path.
God bless

I've been away because of illness, so I've mostly lost the progress of the thread. But from what I've read, it seems that your mind is made up about the LDS church, so I won't dwell more on that. Instead, I wanted to talk about some things you've mentioned, and it dovetails nicely with the quote above.

As I was musing, I pondered on our discussion about John the Baptist's claim to the keys because of lineage. That led me to ponder on the similarity between Moses and Joseph Smith. The Remnant claims that as Moses was removed from Israel and took the Melchizedek Priesthood keys with him, so Joseph Smith was removed in similar fashion. But when you dig into it, nothing seems to work. I can't figure out how, according to Remnant claims, the Aaronic Priesthood keys would have been available to wrest in 2014. That's because of one word: "lineage".

True, Moses was removed, and the Melchizedek Priesthood keys with him. But the Aaronic or Levitical Priesthood was able to remain because it was based on lineage. As long as there were descendants of Levi (and especially Aaron), everything would function as it should. As you correctly pointed out, John the Baptist had a lineal right to the keys.

After the Savior came, however, the lineal requirement was removed. Men could receive the priesthood regardless of their lineage, and they could officiate in the ordinances of the Aaronic Priesthood because it was a subset of the Melchizedek Priesthood. Then there was the Great Apostasy, and everything fell apart. The keys were lost. Then the Restoration, and Melchizedek keys restored, including as a subset the Aaronic Priesthood keys.

So what would have happened after Joseph and the Melchizedek Priesthood keys were removed?

Men with valid ordinations would still have their Melchizedek Priesthood, but they wouldn't be able to give it to anyone else. That means that within a generation, all Melchizedek Priesthood would be gone. And with it would go all those who could officiate in the office of bishop (unless they were literal descendants of Aaron). It gets worse, though, because even those who had the Melchizedek Priesthood could not be a bishop unless he was ordained through Melchizedek Priesthood keys. So only those who were bishops at the time the Melchizedek Priesthood keys were removed would be able to officiate in the ordinances of the Aaronic Priesthood.

Wait, though, the worst is yet to come. Even if there was a descendant of Aaron, he still wouldn't be able to have the keys, because D&C 68 says he also has to be ordained under the hands of the Melchizedek Priesthood keys to make it work in this dispensation.

So what's the consequence of that? As soon as that generation died off, all Aaronic Priesthood keys would go with them. I can't figure out any other way to make it work based on the scriptures. Can you?

This is the part of D&C 68 that corresponds to the discussion.

14 There remain hereafter, in the due time of the Lord, other bishops to be set apart unto the church, to minister even according to the first;

15 Wherefore they shall be high priests who are worthy, and they shall be appointed by the First Presidency of the Melchizedek Priesthood, except they be literal descendants of Aaron.
...
18 No man has a legal right to this office [bishop], to hold the keys of this priesthood, except he be a literal descendant and the firstborn of Aaron.

19 But, as a high priest of the Melchizedek Priesthood has authority to officiate in all the lesser offices he may officiate in the office of bishop when no literal descendant of Aaron can be found, provided he is called and set apart and ordained unto this power, under the hands of the First Presidency of the Melchizedek Priesthood.

20 And a literal descendant of Aaron, also, must be designated by this Presidency, and found worthy, and anointed, and ordained under the hands of this Presidency, otherwise they are not legally authorized to officiate in their priesthood.

I hope you get feeling better! Especially in time for Thanksgiving.
I think we are reaching an impasse.
Ultimately Joseph did not explain keys well enough and consistently enough for me to come to any certain conclusions on how they really operate, how they are passed along and so forth. The Book of Mormon and Bible are silent on the subject.
At the end of the day, the only thing I can come up with objectively to tell whether someone is sent from God or not, is the message that they carry. And I am quite comfortable stating and defending that Denver Snuffer has shared a superior message to that currently offered by the LDS Church. This is a debatable point, but one that from my observation Latter-Day Saints do not engage in. Instead, as you have done too, the topic is focused on keys. And when it comes to keys, no evidence is offered in support to demonstrate that the current Church leaders have them, only evidence to try to disqualify Denver/others. Which is fine. But this is really not discussable. I have asked for this in different words, but we can't really go forward you or someone else can give an objective criteria to define what key holders look like (besides they were ordained by someone who was ordained by someone who was ordained...). The fundamental sects also make that same claim just through a different line. Joseph said John was a legal administrator, but never really said what that looked like. I admit the question is not settled in my own mind. The only thing I can come up with is that they would have a message from God (which John had and shared). But LDS seem to reject that as a qualifier. So I ask then how do you objectively identify a key-holder? Is there really nothing other than he was ordained by someone who was ordained by someone who was ordained...?

As a side note, the original recording of D&C 68 did not include most of the bits you quoted:
http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper- ... -a-dc-68/2
I do not have the time today to look into when/how/who made the additions. Maybe it checks out, maybe it does not. I don't know. But I thought it worth mentioning.

Here's what the original recording of D&C 68 says (reading from the actual paper):

other Bishops to be set apart unto the church to minister even according to the first wherefore it shall be an high priest who is worthy and he shall be appointed by the presidency of high priests

So only high priests -- that cuts out descendants of Aaron entirely. Not sure how that's any better....

I was struck by something the other day, and I think it's pertinent. After Mormon died, Moroni was assigned to finish out the record and abridge the Book of Ether. He did so, but he had some extra time and space beyond what he thought he would. I thought about him looking at the extra plates, wondering what he could possibly write on them that would be of benefit to the Lamanites. And what did he? It seems like he pulled out the Handbook of Instruction and started writing it down -- not from his own time, but from the time of the Savior. A careful reading showed that Chapters 2-6 were about the time just after the Savior visited. If you want to look at a church in its purity -- in key-holders who were acting with perfect righteousness, that's a place to start. Especially Chapter 6. Does that look like what Denver Snuffer is doing? No. Then look at Alma the Elder, another key holder. Is Denver Snuffer acting like he did -- setting up an organization, using the keys to bind (baptize, ordain), and loosen (excommunicate when necessary)? No. Then look at Joseph Smith and his actions just after the keys were presented to him. Is Denver Snuffer acting like he did? No.

The message is only half of a dispensation. If Joseph Smith had only come with a message, but no keys/authority and no church, would it be the Restoration? No. All I can see from Denver Snuffer is Reformation.

I know you have a preliminary Guide and Standard. I don't know if you agree with it or not, but it might make a good starting place. Let's start with the assumption that Denver Snuffer does indeed have keys. Then what I want you to do is answer these three questions based on it (or any other documents of Denver Snuffer that you choose):

1. Where in the document do you see any evidence of Denver Snuffer exercising his keys on behalf of the Remnant followers, especially as regarding ordinances?
2. How would the document be any different if Denver Snuffer did not have any keys?
3. How has he provided for the succession of keys so if he were to die tomorrow, apostasy wouldn't again cover the earth?

[silk]

In re-reading your post, I realized that you were looking for a graceful way to end the conversation. Sorry that I missed that entirely. I'm fine with letting it go.

But in parting, I wanted to address something.

Ultimately Joseph did not explain keys well enough and consistently enough for me to come to any certain conclusions on how they really operate, how they are passed along and so forth. The Book of Mormon and Bible are silent on the subject.

This doesn't have to be an end -- this can be a beginning. This can be a James 1:5 moment. When Joseph Smith read the Bible and listened to the preachers speak, he eventually realized that he didn't know enough to decide for himself. So he turned to God.

We've had a much different experience through this discussion. In respect for Remnant movement beliefs, I've restricted myself to the standard works, History of the Church, and teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. Yet we have come to very different conclusions. You've decided that you can't figure it out, and so have given up. I eventually hit a wall as you did -- I realized that there was no coherent statement of teachings that would make things crystal clear. But I was determined. I had to know. Why? Because I realized that keys were vital, and really the only way to settle the discussion. Because, no matter what the outside message is, if the church has the keys, that's where I need to be. Think Samuel the Lamanite -- his message was true and profound. His prophesies were spirit-filled and accurate. And his words turned people to the church, not away from it. After they heard his words, they sought Nephi for baptism, because he held the keys.

And so I turned to God. I read what was available, and then I pleaded with Him. And read it again. And pleaded again. And pondered long and hard. And, slowly, line upon line, the Holy Ghost has taught me. My eyes have been opened, the scriptures have become clear, and I have been blessed with knowledge. This is the Gift of the Holy Ghost in action. I have received revelation upon revelation, confirmation upon confirmation, and felt truth through its witness. My answer has been worth every struggle, because now I know for myself and I need not doubt again.

This blessing can be yours as well. It requires great humility, though. Humility like Joseph Smith Jr. had. When he went to the Sacred Grove to pray, his mind was made up. Whatever the answer was, he would accept it. Whatever church God told him to join, he would join it. And thus he was willing to take upon himself the enormous burden of restoration.

You need to decide whether you really want to know the answer. You need to ask yourself if you are willing to act upon the knowledge you receive. It is not trivial to receive revelation from heaven, and God will expect you to live in accordance with it.

God bless you in your journey to find truth and live by it.

[jdt]

In re-reading your post, I realized that you were looking for a graceful way to end the conversation. Sorry that I missed that entirely. I'm fine with letting it go.

But in parting, I wanted to address something.

Ultimately Joseph did not explain keys well enough and consistently enough for me to come to any certain conclusions on how they really operate, how they are passed along and so forth. The Book of Mormon and Bible are silent on the subject.

This doesn't have to be an end -- this can be a beginning. This can be a James 1:5 moment. When Joseph Smith read the Bible and listened to the preachers speak, he eventually realized that he didn't know enough to decide for himself. So he turned to God.

We've had a much different experience through this discussion. In respect for Remnant movement beliefs, I've restricted myself to the standard works, History of the Church, and teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. Yet we have come to very different conclusions. You've decided that you can't figure it out, and so have given up. I eventually hit a wall as you did -- I realized that there was no coherent statement of teachings that would make things crystal clear. But I was determined. I had to know. Why? Because I realized that keys were vital, and really the only way to settle the discussion. Because, no matter what the outside message is, if the church has the keys, that's where I need to be. Think Samuel the Lamanite -- his message was true and profound. His prophesies were spirit-filled and accurate. And his words turned people to the church, not away from it. After they heard his words, they sought Nephi for baptism, because he held the keys.

And so I turned to God. I read what was available, and then I pleaded with Him. And read it again. And pleaded again. And pondered long and hard. And, slowly, line upon line, the Holy Ghost has taught me. My eyes have been opened, the scriptures have become clear, and I have been blessed with knowledge. This is the Gift of the Holy Ghost in action. I have received revelation upon revelation, confirmation upon confirmation, and felt truth through its witness. My answer has been worth every struggle, because now I know for myself and I need not doubt again.

This blessing can be yours as well. It requires great humility, though. Humility like Joseph Smith Jr. had. When he went to the Sacred Grove to pray, his mind was made up. Whatever the answer was, he would accept it. Whatever church God told him to join, he would join it. And thus he was willing to take upon himself the enormous burden of restoration.

You need to decide whether you really want to know the answer. You need to ask yourself if you are willing to act upon the knowledge you receive. It is not trivial to receive revelation from heaven, and God will expect you to live in accordance with it.

God bless you in your journey to find truth and live by it.

I have certainly not given up. I am constantly trying to learn. Sometimes I have to suspend final judgment until I just have more information (whether through study or prayer or both). Sometimes I have to reverse my previous understanding.
In the end, no matter how many times I have asked and in how many different ways, you (and as far as I know no in the church) simply have no way of describing a key holder. You have found lots of ways to say how someone isn't. You have a couple of examples of how people in scriptures self-identify or in the case of Joseph identifying John the Baptist. But at the end of the day, you have offered nothing that would have identified Christ as a key holder in his own life. And if you are fine with that, then go in peace. It is not enough for me. I have offered the one thing that to me seems to work. The message. And you deny that, and that is fine, but you don't offer a concrete alternative.
Now for the harsh part and I hope you take this in the spirit it is given. There is a reason why can't give the description. Simply put, any description you give that qualifies the current leaders of the LDS church would also likely qualify at a minimum the fundamentalist leaders and the Sanhedrin in Christ's day. And any description you give that disqualifies the fundamentalists and Sanhedrin, likely disqualifies the current leaders of the LDS church.
And if your understanding of keys is so limited that you cannot give that description, I say it is too limited to be making any judgments about Denver Snuffer (hence suspending judgment until further understanding).
If you can come up with this description, I would love to hear it. And we can discuss further. Without, we are basically left with a "well, the guys I like have these things that cannot be seen or described (except in negative ways to say that people we don't like don't have them), but with them makes everything they say and do right (to the point of "if you are told do something wrong, you do it and you will be blessed")". There can be no real conversation about that.
God bless, have a Happy Thanksgiving.

[Silver Pie]

I'm curious more than anything. What is it that is drawing the remnant people together? What is it that all of you agree about that causes you to identify yourselves by that label? What is it that you are offering others, the reason to join with you? What would cause someone raised Catholic, or Buddhist, or RLDS, or LDS to leave what they know and unite themselves with you? That is what I'm trying to figure out.

For me, it was God talking to me, telling me "This is the man you prayed for," (referring to a prayer I'd fervently prayed right after general conference after 9/11). I continue on the path because God continues to tell me I should do so. I don't join the drama at this point. And I continue to improve when it comes to condemning others who don't believe as I do.

Also, one does not need to leave their religion to be baptized. In the case of LDS, they will probably excommunicate the person once they discover it. I don't know if other religions would do that or not (though I expect Muslims would feel like they had to kill the converted person).

I would say the agreement we have (judging by my own thoughts and those of my closest friends), is that we believe God has sent a messenger with a message to prepare the way for a real Zion to come.

Many (most?) of us believe that Christ has set his hand again, and that the earth is becoming wicked enough to be totally cleansed.

The message is that the Lord's coming is very soon and if there is not a people prepared who can bear his presence in this life, there will be no one left alive when he comes (and he'd really prefer people to be living on a high enough level of love to survive his coming). On the other hand, if we (as a movement) fail, God will destroy us along with everyone else and try again with some other gentiles who will take the gospel to Lehi's seed, and who will put the Lord above their pride and petty arguments.

It is prophesied that Zion will come and that there will be people who survive the Lord's coming, however few that may be. The Lord can do his own work; he has said so. But I think he'd prefer to save as many people as he can, both from physical destruction and from spiritual destruction.

[Silver Pie]

Your best predictions on the Remnant Sects

Denver is a god, everyone who doesn't belong to his particular sect will burn for eternity. Boom! You can quote me on that.

...I am a really good guesser.

[Silver Pie]

I have offered the one thing that to me seems to work. The message.

This is the crux for me, as well. I cannot debate on keys, why Denver says one thing then seems to say something different later, or how the people in the movement act in general. All I know is what God told me (and tells me) about the message, and the approval he gave to me of the messenger.

That does not mean the messenger will always have that stamp of approval, thus, for me, it is a continuing reliance on the Lord. Without the Lord's own communications to me, I would have been swayed from this path long ago by those who argue against it, who fear it, and/or who mock it. I was an absolutely faithful LDS person, totally and completely believing in the scriptures, in the General Authorities' direct link with God, and all that goes with that. It was only because God was more important to me than even the Church, and because I was willing to do anything God asked of me, if I was capable of it, that I now find myself in a different place. (Also, the Church has changed drastically in the last 25-40 years, incredibly so.)