The “shortage of Mormon men”

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AI2.0
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Re: The “shortage of Mormon men”

Post by AI2.0 »

iWriteStuff wrote: October 16th, 2017, 1:05 pm
WhereCanITurn4Peace wrote: October 16th, 2017, 12:00 pm
iWriteStuff wrote: October 16th, 2017, 10:59 am Usually I agree with your posts, but I rather take exception to the "Blame the man" attitude here.
How about the "Blame the women" attitude that is frequently expressed by certain posters? Seems pretty hypocritical to see men complaining about Conference talks in which are made sweeping generalizations about Mormon women being perfect and then turning around to bang on that same discordant key with their own oft repeated and tiresome comments about LDS women as gold-digging harlots.

I totally agree that "it takes both sides" and "blame and keeping score keep us apart". I see nothing good in pitting men against women (and vice versa) and wish there were less of these kind of threads and more uplifting discussions about relationships, marriages, serving one another, etc.
I agree that we need a balanced approach. That was kind of my final point there. We can say there's not enough good men in the church because some would rather play video games and hang out with their buddies, and we can say that there are some women who won't go out with anyone less than apostolic. I'm guessing both are correct. I was mostly responding to AI2.0's comments, which seemed to bend slightly more in the "It's the guys' fault" direction.

I think it safe to say both men and women are fallen individuals and have much need of repentance and humility.
Playing video games isn't the problem, both my daughters love video games. What they can't relate to is LDS men who don't pay tithing or think there's nothing wrong with gambling. LDS men who don't have a problem with stealing small things or who don't honor the sabbath day, who think nothing of going to sporting events or boating on a Sunday.

Do you think that's looking for an 'Apostle?" I don't, I think that's what you should look for because people always get worse after you marry them.
Better that they have higher standards to begin with so that when they start to slide, it isn't as far. While to some, these may seem like over-zealousness, some of us LDS do actually have these standards. Some were raised with standards of what constituted living the gospel and wish to continue to have those in the homes that they set up. This isn't a matter of 'it's the guys' fault'...there are women who also don't have the same level of standards and LDS men shouldn't have to lower their standards to find a righteous woman. THAT goes both ways for certain.

What I don't like is the apparent resentment that some men on this forum have for women in general and LDS women in particular. It's appalling at times the vitriol spewed against LDS women in general.

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iWriteStuff
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Re: The “shortage of Mormon men”

Post by iWriteStuff »

AI2.0 wrote: October 16th, 2017, 3:34 pm
Iwritestuff, I'm sorry you disagree with me, I suspect you didn't read the 2 pages of posts which came before mine or you might understand where I was coming from. WherecanIturnforpeace obviously read the posts. She saw the ugly sweeping condemnation of women that was the consensus of the posters. There is a subset of men on this forum who apparently have been so ill-treated by the women in their lives, that they see no value in them and blame them for all the problems in their lives. The consensus among this subset is that women are; Selfish, money grubbing, evil, immoral, cruel. What's most frightening is that they seem to reserve their most strongest contempt for LDS women.

I actually hope our church leaders will stop saying nice things about the women in the church since it seems to be backfiring. Instead of helping them to realize the importance of showing charity and love for their wives, daughters and mothers, it seems to make some men even more resentful and angry.

As a woman in the church, I certainly don't feel that I'm diefied. I hear the conference talks that counsel us to do better, to live more righteous lives, to serve more, to love more to treat others with kindness and selflessness--I hear those talks as counsel for ME, not for others only and not just for the men. I don't understand this vile contempt and ugliness that is regularly heaped on women--especially LDS women, when these types of threads come up on the forum.

And no. I know that marrying an RM doesn't guarantee celestial bliss. The fact that you even ask me that makes me shake my head.... You don't need to tell me 'it takes both sides'--I've been married for almost 32 years. I know what it takes to have a happy, productive marriage. I've also been around the block enough to know that one or both parties in a marriage can destroy it and they can cause serious misery for the other spouse whom they covenanted to love and cherish.

I gave my thoughts on the topic of the 'shortage of mormon men' and as a mother of two older marriageable age LDS girls, I am familiar with some reasons why my daughters haven't found eternal companions yet.

They are looking for men who are committed to living the gospel all the time, not just on Sundays or when it's convenient. They want men who honor their priesthood and live morally clean lives. They want men who want to have children and want to be a leader in their home--righteously lead the family as moral priesthood holders. They want men who will love and cherish them and be monogamously faithful to them--both physically and virtually. They want men who will be good providers (not rich--this often means a man is too caught up in the world) and be good, loving fathers. They want husbands who value the role a mother plays in raising and nurturing a family. They want husbands who will honor them and treat them as equals and truly enjoy spending time with them. This may seem like too high of standards to hope for, but when you are looking for a man to be the father of your children, you need to find the very best. A man who will be a lazy father, who will not care for his family, or is selfish or has bad habits or is not committed to righteous living, can do horrible damage to his children and their own prospects for happy productive lives and strong moral foundations.

If this is too much to ask of LDS men, then I guess we're going to have a lot of righteous single women in the church, because I don't think they are going to lower their standards of what makes a virtuous man and why should they? Why should they marry a man who doesn't love the Lord as much as they do, who doesn't want to live the gospel on the spiritual level that they do? And if there are a lot of good single men, as you suggest, who want the same thing, then it shouldn't be a problem--there should be plenty of devout LDS to pare up with eachother.
I read the posts. I've also read enough from the posters prior to this thread to understand a bit of where they're coming from. There's some real hurt there. I can understand the bitter feelings to some extent. That being said, it doesn't mean we should be over-generalizing in one direction or the other. Not all women are gold-digging alpha chasers and not all men are video game playing, basement-dwelling marriage deniers.

I'm not suggesting women should lower their standards. I agree that it is appropriate for men to bring their standards up to a higher level and work diligently to be worthy of a good woman. Where I get a bit chaffed is when people lay all the blame on men for women not getting married. Clearly it takes two to tango. I think Feminism has tainted the water a bit. This isn't the same culture our parents and grandparents grew up in. There is an active force in the world seeking the complete emasculation of all men. Manhood is ridiculed in our culture, whereas "girl power" is all the rage. I know it's unhealthy to esteem a man any more than he is actually worth, but shouldn't the same hold true for women? One is not greater than the other; they are only greatest when they are together. And yet that's not where our culture is taking us.

I hope your daughters find good, eligible, faithful priesthood holders for husbands. Knowing how you probably raised them, I have small doubt they will. Most people in my family married a bit older, but when they did they married well. I take no issue with your point of view whatsoever - I merely beg of you to apply some balance. Men are not the sole offenders when it comes to lonely hearts.

Then again, perhaps your approach was intended to bring balance to what you saw as an onslaught against women. In that case, I get where you're coming from.

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AI2.0
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Re: The “shortage of Mormon men”

Post by AI2.0 »

Thanks Iwritestuff, my post was a response to the two pages of diatribe against women in general--as a woman, I felt attacked and offended, but rather than attack back, I decided to try to write my own perspective on this. I don't think it brought balance because there is no balance of some of these men, they are damaged and I'm very sorry for them.

I could have been like them; My first marriage ended in divorce. My husband was an RM, but had straightened up to go on a mission, then as the stresses of marriage, school/life set in, he started drinking and using drugs again. You can imagine what this did to our marriage, it was not good. It only lasted 2 years, but instead of determining that all men were jerks, I decided to try to find an inherently righteous man to marry. I also considered carefully my own weaknesses and problems which had contributed to an unhappy marriage and worked to improve myself and how I interacted with others--I read every self help I could get my hands on. :) I figured I'd need to be the kind of person a truly good man would be attracted to and worked to improve myself. I still work hard to overcome my faults and try to improve each day--it's slow going....I have a lot of faults.

I married the best man I could find and we've been married now almost 32 years. He's been a loving, kind companion and a wonderful father to our children and a solid hard worker and devout LDS priesthood holder. He's also a man who loves to be with us so we get lots of family time. I'm very blessed. BUT--He is not perfect, no humans are and we all have our trials in life; there are serious struggles, but I'm in this for the long haul, I have plenty of opportunities to forgive and learn to be patient, which I've decided it part of becoming more like Christ. I'm sure he feels the same way when having to deal with my moods and I tend to be controlling, wanting things my way. I've had to learn to be good at admitting when I'm wrong.

I hope my daughters will find eternal companions who deserve them. They are exceptional and wonderful human beings--and I'd say that even if I wasn't their mother. ;)

I'm not at all down on men, I just was surprised that this thread turned so negative toward women and felt someone needed to speak up and defend the women of the church--and give my perspective on why there might seem to be a shortage of virtuous, devout LDS men. We are daughters of God and he wants us to be happy, just as he wants his sons to be happy. Living the gospel is the way to find true joy and enduring love in a marriage, and in this life, IMO.

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harakim
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Re: The “shortage of Mormon men”

Post by harakim »

First they came for boyfriends, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a boyfriend.
Then they came for my married co-workers, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not married.
Then they came for my father, and I spoke out—
Because next it was me.

I've seen so many lives ruined by demanding wives and only a few ruined by lazy husbands. This is what the men are talking about. I think there are more broken homes with two parents than people realize.

Fiannan
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Re: The “shortage of Mormon men”

Post by Fiannan »

There isn't a shortage of Mormon men, there does seem to be a shortage of righteous, committed LDS men who want to marry righteous committed LDS women.
As things are now, demographically speaking, an LDS woman is dang lucky to get a believing LDS man interested in her...active and totally committed is absolutely a bonus.

Fiannan
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Re: The “shortage of Mormon men”

Post by Fiannan »

I'm not at all down on men, I just was surprised that this thread turned so negative toward women and felt someone needed to speak up and defend the women of the church--and give my perspective on why there might seem to be a shortage of virtuous, devout LDS men. We are daughters of God and he wants us to be happy, just as he wants his sons to be happy. Living the gospel is the way to find true joy and enduring love in a marriage, and in this life, IMO.
I do not think some of the comments are down on women as a whole -- not like the comments one finds on any internet thread dealing with male-female reslationship dynamics. I think men in Church in particular may find certain aspects of some of the women a problem. However, this is not because the women are women, it is because of the pollution from both LDS culture and secular American culture that may set men off.

First of all, LDS culture. Yes, you are a daughter of God. I am glad you recognize that. Problem is men rarely have this aspect of their origin emphasized to them. In LDS culture, males are presented as chimps who, if righteous, wear a white shirt and tie to Church. Even on this board we are told by some that all men who are looking at a computer screen while alone are probably indulging in porn. Men are blessed to have a woman because she might be able to tame the chimps.

In secular culture women are shown that the ideal friend is a gay man. TV programs geared for girly girls generally have a preponderance of gay males. As for talk shows the standard program is either the out-of-control teenage girl or the cheating husband. This of course is not a surprise in that this is the demographic that is aimed for. About the only entertainment that features real men (action and science fiction) are generally R-rated so many LDS women won't watch, although they make an exception for BDSM Hollywood movies. And on top of the Hollywood cesspool churns out programs that present the standard American home looking like something in The Hamptons. We get to see neurotic rich housewives go about their shopping sprees. Pure fantasy but it still warps the mind of young women who are also told they don't need a man anyway since they can get a career and, just as in a chick flick, when they reach their late 30s they will meet a man who is absolutely perfect, but has never been in a relationship before because he was magically just waiting for her.

Unless Mormons disconnect from modern entertainment -- all of it including porn, talk shows and Disney princess-based programming, this is only going to get so bad that it will be the end of the Church. We are already coughing up blood, so to speak.

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Re: The “shortage of Mormon men”

Post by Spaced_Out »

AI2.0 wrote: October 16th, 2017, 5:14 pm I could have been like them; My first marriage ended in divorce. My husband was an RM, but had straightened up to go on a mission, then as the stresses of marriage, school/life set in, he started drinking and using drugs again. You can imagine what this did to our marriage, it was not good. It only lasted 2 years, but instead of determining that all men were jerks, I decided to try to find an inherently righteous man to marry. I also considered carefully my own weaknesses and problems which had contributed to an unhappy marriage and worked to improve myself and how I interacted with others--I read every self help I could get my hands on. :) I figured I'd need to be the kind of person a truly good man would be attracted to and worked to improve myself. I still work hard to overcome my faults and try to improve each day--it's slow going....I have a lot of faults.
Very good post.

People that are weak and lack leadership blame others for their failures and unhappiness and inability to progress. Those woman haters need psychiatric help and some strong medication,

It is an undisputed fact that there are more active woman in the church and more male YSA go less active. Blaming PH leaders for their inactivity and apostasy form the church is ridiculous, Most of them don't listen to general conference or their PH leaders that is why they are less active. Quoting a few individual biased accounts of what happened to them or family members is not looking at the bigger picture. Has has been pointed out it is not just in the LDS church, and as the world becomes more wicked there will be a greater separation - it is not long now and we will be in the tribulations those that have not overcome the world and mastered their soul will be overcome.-

The most important decision in life is marriage - why do people make statements like you cant tell how a person will change or they were deceptive prior to marriage. It is the most important decision a person can make so one needs to pray about it and get a definite answer prior to making the decision. Then work to make it work and show some leadership and build your partner up if they have serious miss conceptions over life, get counselling if needed to get an independent person to put things in perspective. Don;t accept bad behaviour.
If it all fails take the leanings and move on - blaming the church and PH leaders is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

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Re: The “shortage of Mormon men”

Post by Gage »

A serious problem is making poor dating/marriage choices: Many make poor choices, choosing their dates/mates because of superficial things--it's surprising how many men will blindly saddle themselves with a pretty, young, immature high maintenance girl--because they were attracted to her and wanted a wife that would make their friends envious. Then, she turns out to be shallow and selfish, unprepared for the sacrifices needed to make a relationship work, making them and their mate miserable and regardless of whether the marriage survives or not--the man becomes bitter, resentful and makes the mistake of judging all women to be like their wife/exgirlfriend. Then, it's no wonder the men then can't find anyone interested in them--they have such a misogynistic attitude that comes across to women they come in contact with-- so, why would any sane woman want to take that on?

IMO, it's more attractive to remain single than have to settle for marrying a man who's problems prevent him from being a good husband and father and will make your life miserable.
[/quote]




Did you just blame a man for his wife's actions? Did I read this correctly? Men look for superficial things in a woman? So women are going around looking for the fat, ugly, poor guy? As young men in the church it was drilled into us that as long as we stay faithful, pay our tithing, honor our Priesthood, God would send us a beautiful, sexy, loyal wife. This is a load. Women are looking for the hot Alpha guy with the big house, and nice cars, the guy that has plenty of money to give her, if he is a faithful Priesthood holder- well ok that cant hurt anything. So what these Bishops should have been telling us was hey a few of you are gona grow up to be good looking rich men, you will have the beautiful sexy women falling at your feet, dont worry so much about how faithful you are, because you dont have to. For you other average and below average looking guys with temple recommends, good luck nothing in this life is guaranteed.

djinwa
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Re: The “shortage of Mormon men”

Post by djinwa »

We're told regularly about the deficiencies of men, and we're told to man up and grow a pair. Men are rude and crude and have dirty minds, and are disgusting, creepy, women have to "settle" for a man, etc.

If you point out deficiencies of women, you are dismissed as a woman hater.

On our local news the other day they showed a conference against domestic violence. I noted that pretty much everyone there was female, and they shared stories of women being beaten by husbands. Fair enough, there are many bad guys out there.

But I wondered when the following was ever going to be shown on the news.

http://www.saveservices.org/2012/02/cdc ... ner-abuse/
SUMMARY: According to a 2010 national survey by the Centers for Disease Control and Department of Justice, in the last 12 months more men than women were victims of intimate partner physical violence and over 40% of severe physical violence was directed at men. Men were also more often the victim of psychological aggression and control over sexual or reproductive health. Despite this, few services are available to male victims of intimate partner violence.

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Re: The “shortage of Mormon men”

Post by Fiannan »

Did you just blame a man for his wife's actions? Did I read this correctly? Men look for superficial things in a woman? So women are going around looking for the fat, ugly, poor guy? As young men in the church it was drilled into us that as long as we stay faithful, pay our tithing, honor our Priesthood, God would send us a beautiful, sexy, loyal wife. This is a load. Women are looking for the hot Alpha guy with the big house, and nice cars, the guy that has plenty of money to give her, if he is a faithful Priesthood holder- well ok that cant hurt anything. So what these Bishops should have been telling us was hey a few of you are gona grow up to be good looking rich men, you will have the beautiful sexy women falling at your feet, dont worry so much about how faithful you are, because you dont have to. For you other average and below average looking guys with temple recommends, good luck nothing in this life is guaranteed.
Okay, in fairness we need to look at the differences between males and females to explain some of the traits that have, sadly, been manipulated by society so that they no longer function as they were meant to.

Women are given only a short period of their lives to reproduce; let’s say 15 years to 40. That means if a woman lives to be 80 then only less than 1/3 of her time on earth she was capable of bringing forth offspring. If she fails to reproduce then, at least as far as biology is concerned, she is a failure and her DNA will cease to exist upon her death.

During that short period of life, if blessed with pregnancy, she will be severely hampered in her ability to get food and provide for her other needs. And after the birth she is also going to have to place a great deal of attention in her child. Therefore she will seek a male that is capable of providing for her and assisting her in rearing her children. She must choose wisely as she only makes an egg a month and once impregnated she will no longer be available for reproduction for about two years. So it appears women will desire a male who is superior in one of three areas:

1) Physical strength. Such a man can protect her and he is capable of securing resources.
2) Intellectual strength (cleverness). Such a man can use cunning to advance his interests and thus hers.
3) Wealth. Regardless of looks, strength or intelligence (or a temple recommend) if a man possesses wealth then it gives her and her children safety and security.

Now as for how these can be manipulated we live in a consumeristic society that must sell people on the idea that the grass is greener around the corner. Women’s magazines promote materialism, fashion, achieving the best orgasm and losing weight. That pretty much sums up their message. The rest of the media also promote the idea that a woman must have a husband that looks great and makes lots of money so she can indulge her fantasies. At the same time they are told to hold off on reproducing and that they should date often (in other words have sex with many types of men and women) and “see the world.” Career is vital and maternal feelings can be projected onto a cute cat or dog. This is the propaganda that hits all women today and then when you mix that with their natural instincts you get a product that may not be so pleasant to live with.

Of course those women who stay close to the Gospel and strive to discern between good and evil are more immune to this than those who think that the world is a fun place. Yes, many good LDS women exist who don’t fall for Satanic lies (be they on TV or in Relief Society) and desire to make families that our Heavenly Father would be proud of.

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Re: The “shortage of Mormon men”

Post by JohnnyL »

AI2.0 wrote: October 16th, 2017, 3:34 pm
iWriteStuff wrote: October 16th, 2017, 10:59 am
AI2.0 wrote: October 16th, 2017, 10:13 am
There isn't a shortage of Mormon men, there does seem to be a shortage of righteous, committed LDS men who want to marry righteous committed LDS women.

We know that there is a large percentage of returned missionaries who go inactive after their missions. One has to wonder why? There are lots of reasons; They get caught up in worldly interests, some get involved with pornography and this keeps them from having an interest in a real woman or hurts their ability to relate to real women; Others fall back into their old high school ways and don't really want to move into adulthood, taking on a wife, children and looking forward to a future of working to make a living to support them. They don't put the time or effort into seeking out a wife, but instead, keep relationships superficial. Some LDS men's standards of attitude/behavior are lax; they aren't truly committed to living righteous, clean lives of service and devotion and will drag down their family to their telestial level and resent their wife/girlfriend's attempts to get them to live on a terrestrial or celestial level.

I agree with much of the second paragraph. Still, those RM's that leave? They aren't all male. I've known female RM's to do the same. All those reasons fit both sides. But yes, I've sat by EQ president at BYU when he disagreed, in more than a whisper, very much so with the bishop's chastity talk. I've heard guys say, "I can't go out with that girl--she made out with me. I need someone better than that."

Oftentimes, I think that they are hampered by the candy store dilemna. With the internet making the world so small, they see how many different choices they have in marriageable women and so they can't decide. They don't want to settle with one and so, put it off with endless dating or 'hanging out'.
Yes! This was part of my problem, too. But a talk on "hanging out" (wait, now it's multiple talks) will not really do much, while I think a spiritual talk on understanding and overcoming "candy store" WOULD.
A serious problem is making poor dating/marriage choices: Many make poor choices, choosing their dates/mates because of superficial things--it's surprising how many men will blindly saddle themselves with a pretty, young, immature high maintenance girl--because they were attracted to her and wanted a wife that would make their friends envious. Then, she turns out to be shallow and selfish, unprepared for the sacrifices needed to make a relationship work, making them and their mate miserable and regardless of whether the marriage survives or not--the man becomes bitter, resentful and makes the mistake of judging all women to be like their wife/exgirlfriend. Then, it's no wonder the men then can't find anyone interested in them--they have such a misogynistic attitude that comes across to women they come in contact with-- so, why would any sane woman want to take that on?
Those pretty, young, immature high maintenance girls--they're all "righteous, committed" LDS! (And I totally agree with what you wrote here, too. It happens all the time.)
IMO, it's more attractive to remain single than have to settle for marrying a man who's problems prevent him from being a good husband and father and will make your life miserable.
I agree, it would be.
Usually I agree with your posts, but I rather take exception to the "Blame the man" attitude here. Telling men that they will find a great wife as long as they are righteous, work hard, go to church, stay temple worthy, and treat all women with respect is about as nonsensical as telling a woman all she has to do is marry an RM and celestial happiness is guaranteed. It takes both sides.
Agree. And both sides need to hear and understand the truth.
If there's one aspect of church culture that rubs me wrong it's the deification of all women and the constant "Stop playing video games and thinking naughty thoughts" attacks we get as men, even if we do neither. Men aren't the only imperfect beings God created. However, we seem to be the only ones whose flaws can be fairly targeted. The following meme sums it up pretty well:
womensconference.jpg
What if men were congratulated for staying worthy, for preparing to be responsible providers, for seeking virtuous women? What if our efforts at staying true to the gospel were praised as frequently as they are in Relief Society or Women's Conference? If you ever listen to Priesthood session and compare it to Women's Conference, in one you get a stern fatherly talking to while in the other it's all "You sisters are just awesome. It's just a shame all you celestial ladies have to put up with telestial husbands." Jesus wasn't deferential to one gender or the other - he called out imperfections when needed and praised when needed. I don't see the equality these days.
I already had an abusive dad, I don't need to go to GC priesthood meetings and get it all over again...
There are plenty of good single Mormon men. I would put it to you that there are plenty out there who are single by no fault of their own. Satan isn't just attacking the men of the church. Just last night my wife was sitting with her extended family talking about how we both work to strengthen each others' weaknesses, neither of us being perfect. I think that is how it ought to be. I'm not perfect, she's not perfect, but we're both doing our best. Blame and keeping score only keep us apart.
And it's quite disheartening to be attacked everywhere, then go to GC and ... get attacked there, too. I'd LOVE to see GA's live with many women I know, lol... Once the "higher up and therefore more spiritual" effect wore off of those women, especially.
Iwritestuff, I'm sorry you disagree with me, I suspect you didn't read the 2 pages of posts which came before mine or you might understand where I was coming from. WherecanIturnforpeace obviously read the posts. She saw the ugly sweeping condemnation of women that was the consensus of the posters. There is a subset of men on this forum who apparently have been so ill-treated by the women in their lives, that they see no value in them and blame them for all the problems in their lives. The consensus among this subset is that women are; Selfish, money grubbing, evil, immoral, cruel. What's most frightening is that they seem to reserve their most strongest contempt for LDS women.
I actually hope our church leaders will stop saying nice things about the women in the church since it seems to be backfiring. Instead of helping them to realize the importance of showing charity and love for their wives, daughters and mothers, it seems to make some men even more resentful and angry.
What would any sane person expect, really? When you yell at your son and everything that comes out of your mouth to him is negative and you just talk about his problems; then, praise your daughter and care so much for her and adore her, when in fact they're pretty equal--do ya think?
As a woman in the church, I certainly don't feel that I'm diefied.
I know women that are mad at their husbands because their husbands DON'T deify them, lol.
I hear the conference talks that counsel us to do better, to live more righteous lives, to serve more, to love more to treat others with kindness and selflessness--I hear those talks as counsel for ME, not for others only and not just for the men. I don't understand this vile contempt and ugliness that is regularly heaped on women--especially LDS women, when these types of threads come up on the forum.

It's the one-sidedness. It's: When you yell at your son and everything that comes out of your mouth to him is negative and you just talk about his problems; then, praise your daughter and care so much for her and adore her, when in fact they're pretty equal--from our church leaders. It's the continual one-sidedness in the culture. It's like the comment you first wrote.

It's about HAVING A VOICE.

Because it's been going on for way too long, too much, and men--being who they are--generally won't say a thing about it, so it just keeps getting worse.


...
I gave my thoughts on the topic of the 'shortage of mormon men' and as a mother of two older marriageable age LDS girls, I am familiar with some reasons why my daughters haven't found eternal companions yet.
Having hung out (and not just going over to eat and goof off a moment, but like take them shopping, walk home with them, etc.) with and dated hundreds of young (and older) women, I have plenty of thoughts to share, too. I don't make up the negative things I write about women, and sometimes, I tone them down and leave things out. In my last ward, lots of guys came to church without their member wives. My ward now is high in divorces, and most are men who got taken for a loop in more than one way.

I have no doubt there are decent young men out there for my daughters; heck, we have some in our ward. Well, we've had some in every ward I've ever been in, frankly.

NOW--what all that does, is not give me a completely bitter view on women, but it does give me a much more truthful view. Because of that, when I see what is promulgated in the church, it doesn't make me happy.

They are looking for men who are committed to living the gospel all the time, not just on Sundays or when it's convenient. They want men who honor their priesthood and live morally clean lives. They want men who want to have children and want to be a leader in their home--righteously lead the family as moral priesthood holders. They want men who will love and cherish them and be monogamously faithful to them--both physically and virtually. They want men who will be good providers (not rich--this often means a man is too caught up in the world) and be good, loving fathers. They want husbands who value the role a mother plays in raising and nurturing a family. They want husbands who will honor them and treat them as equals and truly enjoy spending time with them. This may seem like too high of standards to hope for, but when you are looking for a man to be the father of your children, you need to find the very best. A man who will be a lazy father, who will not care for his family, or is selfish or has bad habits or is not committed to righteous living, can do horrible damage to his children and their own prospects for happy productive lives and strong moral foundations.
And men are looking for the equal on the other side.
If this is too much to ask of LDS men, then I guess we're going to have a lot of righteous single women in the church, because I don't think they are going to lower their standards of what makes a virtuous man and why should they? Why should they marry a man who doesn't love the Lord as much as they do, who doesn't want to live the gospel on the spiritual level that they do? And if there are a lot of good single men, as you suggest, who want the same thing, then it shouldn't be a problem--there should be plenty of devout LDS to pare up with eachother.
And if this is too much to ask of LDS women, then I guess we're going to have a lot of righteous single men in the church...

Fiannan
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Re: The “shortage of Mormon men”

Post by Fiannan »

And it's quite disheartening to be attacked everywhere, then go to GC and ... get attacked there, too. I'd LOVE to see GA's live with many women I know, lol... Once the "higher up and therefore more spiritual" effect wore off of those women, especially.
One thing to keep in mind is that it is really difficult for a man to advance in business, or any other field, if he is married to an emotionally distant or abusive wife. So since most GAs are successful in their line of work they have wives who are probably totally committed to the spirituality that the scriptures promote.

Gage
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Re: The “shortage of Mormon men”

Post by Gage »

Fiannan wrote: October 17th, 2017, 8:52 am
Did you just blame a man for his wife's actions? Did I read this correctly? Men look for superficial things in a woman? So women are going around looking for the fat, ugly, poor guy? As young men in the church it was drilled into us that as long as we stay faithful, pay our tithing, honor our Priesthood, God would send us a beautiful, sexy, loyal wife. This is a load. Women are looking for the hot Alpha guy with the big house, and nice cars, the guy that has plenty of money to give her, if he is a faithful Priesthood holder- well ok that cant hurt anything. So what these Bishops should have been telling us was hey a few of you are gona grow up to be good looking rich men, you will have the beautiful sexy women falling at your feet, dont worry so much about how faithful you are, because you dont have to. For you other average and below average looking guys with temple recommends, good luck nothing in this life is guaranteed.
Okay, in fairness we need to look at the differences between males and females to explain some of the traits that have, sadly, been manipulated by society so that they no longer function as they were meant to.

Women are given only a short period of their lives to reproduce; let’s say 15 years to 40. That means if a woman lives to be 80 then only less than 1/3 of her time on earth she was capable of bringing forth offspring. If she fails to reproduce then, at least as far as biology is concerned, she is a failure and her DNA will cease to exist upon her death.

During that short period of life, if blessed with pregnancy, she will be severely hampered in her ability to get food and provide for her other needs. And after the birth she is also going to have to place a great deal of attention in her child. Therefore she will seek a male that is capable of providing for her and assisting her in rearing her children. She must choose wisely as she only makes an egg a month and once impregnated she will no longer be available for reproduction for about two years. So it appears women will desire a male who is superior in one of three areas:

1) Physical strength. Such a man can protect her and he is capable of securing resources.
2) Intellectual strength (cleverness). Such a man can use cunning to advance his interests and thus hers.
3) Wealth. Regardless of looks, strength or intelligence (or a temple recommend) if a man possesses wealth then it gives her and her children safety and security.

Now as for how these can be manipulated we live in a consumeristic society that must sell people on the idea that the grass is greener around the corner. Women’s magazines promote materialism, fashion, achieving the best orgasm and losing weight. That pretty much sums up their message. The rest of the media also promote the idea that a woman must have a husband that looks great and makes lots of money so she can indulge her fantasies. At the same time they are told to hold off on reproducing and that they should date often (in other words have sex with many types of men and women) and “see the world.” Career is vital and maternal feelings can be projected onto a cute cat or dog. This is the propaganda that hits all women today and then when you mix that with their natural instincts you get a product that may not be so pleasant to live with.

Of course those women who stay close to the Gospel and strive to discern between good and evil are more immune to this than those who think that the world is a fun place. Yes, many good LDS women exist who don’t fall for Satanic lies (be they on TV or in Relief Society) and desire to make families that our Heavenly Father would be proud of.


yep I can agree with all that.

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Sarah
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Re: The “shortage of Mormon men”

Post by Sarah »

djinwa wrote: October 17th, 2017, 8:34 am We're told regularly about the deficiencies of men, and we're told to man up and grow a pair. Men are rude and crude and have dirty minds, and are disgusting, creepy, women have to "settle" for a man, etc.

If you point out deficiencies of women, you are dismissed as a woman hater.

On our local news the other day they showed a conference against domestic violence. I noted that pretty much everyone there was female, and they shared stories of women being beaten by husbands. Fair enough, there are many bad guys out there.

But I wondered when the following was ever going to be shown on the news.

http://www.saveservices.org/2012/02/cdc ... ner-abuse/
SUMMARY: According to a 2010 national survey by the Centers for Disease Control and Department of Justice, in the last 12 months more men than women were victims of intimate partner physical violence and over 40% of severe physical violence was directed at men. Men were also more often the victim of psychological aggression and control over sexual or reproductive health. Despite this, few services are available to male victims of intimate partner violence.
There's a reason this "headline" or "summary" was never reported. Here's the actual survey data. https://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/ ... 2010-a.pdf

It's kind of hard to find all the the points mentioned in that summary. I finally did find them but it wasn't easy. If there is any headline that should come out of this survey, it is that 1 in 5 women have been raped and 1 in 71 men have. It also might help to explain what is meant by "psychological aggression" and "control over sexual or reproductive health:"

Psychological aggression
includes expressive aggression (such as name calling,
insulting or humiliating an intimate partner) and coercive control, which includes
behaviors that are intended to monitor and control or threaten an intimate partner.

Control of reproductive or sexual health
includes the refusal by an intimate partner
to use a condom. For a woman, it also includes times when a partner tried to get her
pregnant when she did not want to become pregnant. For a man, it also includes times
when a partner tried to get pregnant when the man did not want her to become pregnant.

I'm not trying dismiss your grievances. No one should feel they need to tolerate receiving violence, aggression, or manipulation. But is seems obvious to me that whoever wrote that "summary" had an agenda of stirring up feelings of male-victumhood. The bottom line is that no one wants to feel controlled. Everyone wants their freedom. That is why people need boundaries on their behavior if they are feeling controlled, used or manipulated. If you have a demanding wife, lovingly explain why you cannot give. If you have a demanding husband, do the same. If someone is not giving to you what you want, putting pressure on that person to give to you more time, money or sex is never going to work. You will come across as controlling. The only thing you can do is work and sacrifice to please God - which means having children and raising a righteous family - and respond to your spouse's withholding with love and persuasion.

JohnnyL
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Re: The “shortage of Mormon men”

Post by JohnnyL »

Fiannan wrote: October 17th, 2017, 10:46 am
And it's quite disheartening to be attacked everywhere, then go to GC and ... get attacked there, too. I'd LOVE to see GA's live with many women I know, lol... Once the "higher up and therefore more spiritual" effect wore off of those women, especially.
One thing to keep in mind is that it is really difficult for a man to advance in business, or any other field, if he is married to an emotionally distant or abusive wife. So since most GAs are successful in their line of work they have wives who are probably totally committed to the spirituality that the scriptures promote.
Exactly!!

Either that, or the wives silently put up with abuse/ mistreatment.

PressingForward
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Re: The “shortage of Mormon men”

Post by PressingForward »

Fiannan wrote: October 17th, 2017, 10:46 am
And it's quite disheartening to be attacked everywhere, then go to GC and ... get attacked there, too. I'd LOVE to see GA's live with many women I know, lol... Once the "higher up and therefore more spiritual" effect wore off of those women, especially.
One thing to keep in mind is that it is really difficult for a man to advance in business, or any other field, if he is married to an emotionally distant or abusive wife. So since most GAs are successful in their line of work they have wives who are probably totally committed to the spirituality that the scriptures promote.
Totally disagree with the “rightousness = prosperous” doctrine. But boy it does exist in our church. Saw a 3year convert to the church become a High Councilman a few years back. Many people were surprised. I wasn’t, he fit the profile of the Local church leaders, Doctors, Lawyers and local Business Owners, of which he was the latter.

Serragon
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Re: The “shortage of Mormon men”

Post by Serragon »

brianj wrote: October 15th, 2017, 4:53 pm
Gage wrote: October 15th, 2017, 4:36 pm Yep. And you can believe the ones that have husbands that leave gain all the sympathy from the members and some eat it up. A one time Bishop in my ward found out some things about the Church he didnt agree with so he denounced his membership, left the Church. Ok, the wife before all this is already not happy with the marriage, this I knew, because I was good friends with their son. She rode the sympathy card like a champ, woe is me my husband left the church he has destroyed our marriage. Turns out she had been cheating on him with the same man before and after he left the Church, imagine that.
She was cheating on him, but she's the victim. She sounds like she has a lot in common with my not-yet-ex.

Mine publicly announced her engagement on Facebook four months before our first court date (which was postponed), she has made multiple statements to government officials about living with her fiance, she lives in a two bedroom apartment where our son has his own room, and has twice told a Bishop that she's not living with anybody else. And, apparently, she's telling everybody who will give her sympathy about what an abusive person I am. The really pathetic part: the stories of abuse that she tells describe how she treated me.
There are plenty of good and faithful sisters out there.

But it is a large problem in the church that our expectations for men are much higher than they are for women. We often give voice in talks to the idea that women are more naturally virtuous and faithful than men. This is absolutely false. I would suggest that it says more about how we measure faith than the faith itself.

When I was an Elders Quorum president, one of the members of the quorum went through a divorce. She left him and the kids because, in her words, he was not being faithful to his temple covenants. These "covenants" consisted of him making enough money to keep her happy. She left and within a few months and was dating a doctor in another ward and was married in just over a year. She devastated this mans life, took his kids, and received no negative consequence from the church at all. On the contrary, she was treated as a victim in her new ward.

I think another reason that many men are leaving the church is because the church has become very feminine and centralized, much like society at large. It no longer offers them anything of value. Compare what priesthood service meant in previous generations to now. I look at what my grandfathers did compared to what we do today and am left saddened. The focus of the church has changed from spreading the word of God, service, and building zion communities to "families", where the father is simply a second mother. Your church experience is planned by committees in Salt Lake instead of the members of the local ward. Quorum meeting is just another sunday school class. The word quorum has no significance at all anymore.

Men do not thrive in an environment where they have a title of leader but are really a manager. Where very little that is masculine is expected of them, but much that is feminine is. Where they are told repeatedly to quell that natural man where the same is not often emphasized with the sisters. Where men cannot be left alone with a woman or a child for fear they will attack them sexually. Where homosexuality is being treated as a normal male trait. Where men are often judged based on their career choice and wealth instead of their devotion to Christ.

I know many men who maintain a testimony of the restored Gospel but do not attend church. They just don't see the point anymore.

Fiannan
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Re: The “shortage of Mormon men”

Post by Fiannan »

I think another reason that many men are leaving the church is because the church has become very feminine and centralized, much like society at large. It no longer offers them anything of value. Compare what priesthood service meant in previous generations to now. I look at what my grandfathers did compared to what we do today and am left saddened. The focus of the church has changed from spreading the word of God, service, and building zion communities to "families", where the father is simply a second mother. Your church experience is planned by committees in Salt Lake instead of the members of the local ward. Quorum meeting is just another sunday school class. The word quorum has no significance at all anymore.

Men do not thrive in an environment where they have a title of leader but are really a manager. Where very little that is masculine is expected of them, but much that is feminine is. Where they are told repeatedly to quell that natural man where the same is not often emphasized with the sisters. Where men cannot be left alone with a woman or a child for fear they will attack them sexually. Where homosexuality is being treated as a normal male trait. Where men are often judged based on their career choice and wealth instead of their devotion to Christ.
What he said.

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DEEPER storm
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Re: The “shortage of Mormon men”

Post by DEEPER storm »

Single/divorced, & widowed, A Question:


What are your biggest Red Flags about choosing a (new) partner?

-Religion ?

-Finances ?

- Personality/ character issues ? (specifically, please)

- Family conflicts/ expectations ?

Spaced_Out
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Posts: 1795

Re: The “shortage of Mormon men”

Post by Spaced_Out »

PressingForward wrote: October 17th, 2017, 3:18 pm
Fiannan wrote: October 17th, 2017, 10:46 am
And it's quite disheartening to be attacked everywhere, then go to GC and ... get attacked there, too. I'd LOVE to see GA's live with many women I know, lol... Once the "higher up and therefore more spiritual" effect wore off of those women, especially.
One thing to keep in mind is that it is really difficult for a man to advance in business, or any other field, if he is married to an emotionally distant or abusive wife. So since most GAs are successful in their line of work they have wives who are probably totally committed to the spirituality that the scriptures promote.
Totally disagree with the “rightousness = prosperous” doctrine. But boy it does exist in our church. Saw a 3year convert to the church become a High Councilman a few years back. Many people were surprised. I wasn’t, he fit the profile of the Local church leaders, Doctors, Lawyers and local Business Owners, of which he was the latter.
Some people come down to earth with many gifts of the spirit and develop them both spiritually and in vocation, and are given many talents or bring them with from the preexistence.. This is also due to hard work - becoming a doctor one must work hard in school and at work to be successful and will develop many talents on the way. It is not for you to judge another and the decisions of PH leaders. It has nothing to do with wealth but the individual gifts of the spirit and talents they have developed as well as righteous desires. I had a Bishop that was a fork lift driver in a steel mill, our current Bishop has no post high school qualifications so it does not always work like that.

Leadership is one of the most difficult things to develop in people many simply don't have it or are not prepared to accept responsibility. One needs to learn to follow first before leading, all I hear is the PH leaders are incorrectly criticising the males and chasing them away from the church and appointing people to positions of responsibility above them who are more desrving, the woman in the church have all the power and the men are easily manipulated... None of these things show leadership but cowardice and no surprise the sisters take control due to the extreme lack in leadership from the individuals making these accusations.
D&C46:29 That unto some it may be given to have all those gifts, that there may be a head, in order that every member may be profited thereby.

Gage
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Re: The “shortage of Mormon men”

Post by Gage »

PressingForward wrote: October 17th, 2017, 3:18 pm
Fiannan wrote: October 17th, 2017, 10:46 am
And it's quite disheartening to be attacked everywhere, then go to GC and ... get attacked there, too. I'd LOVE to see GA's live with many women I know, lol... Once the "higher up and therefore more spiritual" effect wore off of those women, especially.
One thing to keep in mind is that it is really difficult for a man to advance in business, or any other field, if he is married to an emotionally distant or abusive wife. So since most GAs are successful in their line of work they have wives who are probably totally committed to the spirituality that the scriptures promote.
Totally disagree with the “rightousness = prosperous” doctrine. But boy it does exist in our church. Saw a 3year convert to the church become a High Councilman a few years back. Many people were surprised. I wasn’t, he fit the profile of the Local church leaders, Doctors, Lawyers and local Business Owners, of which he was the latter.

Many Mormons base their testimonies on the things they have, not to the truth of the BofM or church doctrine, etc., many dont agree with much of what they read or are taught. Prosperous doctrine, I've seen it my whole life. The Church must be true as I am successful and have more than most. I must be living righteously as I am successful and have more than most. Righteousness is many times determined by how successful you are.

Crackers
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Re: The “shortage of Mormon men”

Post by Crackers »

Please know that the experiences many of you have shared here, about being made to feel less valued as a man and conversely seeing women as being put on a pedestal and given a pass on anything they do wrong, is not pervasive in the church. My husband has never in his life been made to feel this way, and neither have I or any of my teenagers (of both genders). I have never had any friends or family members mention anything of the kind happening in their experience. I have never heard this mentioned in any church classes or meetings. So please consider that while this may be your experience in your wards and lives, it is not mine, and it is not necessarily your neighbors'.

Sometimes we just find ourselves in difficult places and situations, surrounded by "difficult" people. I'm not saying that these things aren't happening to you, but I do think some of you have had some unfortunate experiences in the social culture of the church (as you've described), and now you are looking for it this particular problem, and have an ax to grind, and can't see that it isn't nearly as pervasive as you think it is. I am truly pained that some of you feel this way, and hope that you can find a way to look for the positive around you and see that things aren't as bad as you think.

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Sarah
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Re: The “shortage of Mormon men”

Post by Sarah »

Serragon wrote: October 17th, 2017, 4:13 pm
brianj wrote: October 15th, 2017, 4:53 pm
Gage wrote: October 15th, 2017, 4:36 pm Yep. And you can believe the ones that have husbands that leave gain all the sympathy from the members and some eat it up. A one time Bishop in my ward found out some things about the Church he didnt agree with so he denounced his membership, left the Church. Ok, the wife before all this is already not happy with the marriage, this I knew, because I was good friends with their son. She rode the sympathy card like a champ, woe is me my husband left the church he has destroyed our marriage. Turns out she had been cheating on him with the same man before and after he left the Church, imagine that.
She was cheating on him, but she's the victim. She sounds like she has a lot in common with my not-yet-ex.

Mine publicly announced her engagement on Facebook four months before our first court date (which was postponed), she has made multiple statements to government officials about living with her fiance, she lives in a two bedroom apartment where our son has his own room, and has twice told a Bishop that she's not living with anybody else. And, apparently, she's telling everybody who will give her sympathy about what an abusive person I am. The really pathetic part: the stories of abuse that she tells describe how she treated me.
There are plenty of good and faithful sisters out there.

But it is a large problem in the church that our expectations for men are much higher than they are for women. We often give voice in talks to the idea that women are more naturally virtuous and faithful than men. This is absolutely false. I would suggest that it says more about how we measure faith than the faith itself.

When I was an Elders Quorum president, one of the members of the quorum went through a divorce. She left him and the kids because, in her words, he was not being faithful to his temple covenants. These "covenants" consisted of him making enough money to keep her happy. She left and within a few months and was dating a doctor in another ward and was married in just over a year. She devastated this mans life, took his kids, and received no negative consequence from the church at all. On the contrary, she was treated as a victim in her new ward.

I think another reason that many men are leaving the church is because the church has become very feminine and centralized, much like society at large. It no longer offers them anything of value. Compare what priesthood service meant in previous generations to now. I look at what my grandfathers did compared to what we do today and am left saddened. The focus of the church has changed from spreading the word of God, service, and building zion communities to "families", where the father is simply a second mother. Your church experience is planned by committees in Salt Lake instead of the members of the local ward. Quorum meeting is just another sunday school class. The word quorum has no significance at all anymore.

Men do not thrive in an environment where they have a title of leader but are really a manager. Where very little that is masculine is expected of them, but much that is feminine is. Where they are told repeatedly to quell that natural man where the same is not often emphasized with the sisters. Where men cannot be left alone with a woman or a child for fear they will attack them sexually. Where homosexuality is being treated as a normal male trait. Where men are often judged based on their career choice and wealth instead of their devotion to Christ.

I know many men who maintain a testimony of the restored Gospel but do not attend church. They just don't see the point anymore.
Well, like Brigham said in his day, if we ever get the call, "to your tents O Israel," because that's the only thing that would keep the people pure, you'll have plenty of manly things to do. You can chop all the wood you want and build lots of fires and guard us women while we tend the children and do all the cooking.

Seriously though, your friend's divorce is unfortunate, and I would guess it is fairly unusual if indeed the woman's main reason for leaving was for more money. We know that outsiders never get the whole story on divorce, or just one side of it. But for every woman in the Church who engages in bad behavior there is a man who is guilty of the same or similar crimes. If women are getting away with more, because of the weaknesses of men, those deeds are not going to be glossed over by God at judgment day, so best not to worry about what others are getting away with and worry about yourself, and not whine or complain about what our Church leaders are or not doing. If men are getting the tougher message, or higher standard placed upon them (which I don't believe they are), then why does that bother you? On one hand you want a more masculine environment in Church culture, but when treated like the tough guys you are you complain that women are getting softer treatment?

I'm with Crackers - it is not my experience at all in the Church, nor my husband's, that there is some pervasive man-bashing or woman praising in the Church. I hear the praise go both ways in testimony meeting, and there is a good balance in my ward of faithful men and women. I have been very impressed with everyone in my ward, men and women, although materialism and worldliness gets the best of both genders. I've had Bishops with very humble vocations.

I do think men need to be with other men and be working together. My husband would like nothing more than to go on a mission again and be with the boys, so maybe that is what the men are longing for - that team feeling like they have when playing sports. Being at home with children is so not fun - I get it! But I think if men have the chance to be in a good presidency, they get that man-time they need. If men aren't involved in a good-working council or presidency, I can see how they would feel something was missing in their church service.

Serragon
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Re: The “shortage of Mormon men”

Post by Serragon »

Crackers wrote: October 18th, 2017, 9:15 am Please know that the experiences many of you have shared here, about being made to feel less valued as a man and conversely seeing women as being put on a pedestal and given a pass on anything they do wrong, is not pervasive in the church. My husband has never in his life been made to feel this way, and neither have I or any of my teenagers (of both genders). I have never had any friends or family members mention anything of the kind happening in their experience. I have never heard this mentioned in any church classes or meetings. So please consider that while this may be your experience in your wards and lives, it is not mine, and it is not necessarily your neighbors'.

Sometimes we just find ourselves in difficult places and situations, surrounded by "difficult" people. I'm not saying that these things aren't happening to you, but I do think some of you have had some unfortunate experiences in the social culture of the church (as you've described), and now you are looking for it this particular problem, and have an ax to grind, and can't see that it isn't nearly as pervasive as you think it is. I am truly pained that some of you feel this way, and hope that you can find a way to look for the positive around you and see that things aren't as bad as you think.
These things are pervasive. The anecdotal reasons you have given do not mean the problem doesn't exist. It simply means you have not noticed it. It is often difficult to see problems from the inside. A different perspective can make hidden things become clear. Many active men have no clue that church culture has been feminized because it is normal to them. There are some men who actually prefer this type of culture. But for many, it is distasteful.

I have no axe to grind. I have been in church leadership for over 20 years and am simply trying to help fix the issues. We talk about these things in presidency meetings often.

I learned the severity of the problem while visiting Elders who no longer came to church. It didn't take long to see a pattern develop. it is not talked about at church, because there is no real forum to talk about it at church. Very few quorums use their meetings as an actual quorum meetings where these things might get discussed. Whenever someone begins talking about things that are are critical of our current church culture or leaders in church meetings, people get uncomfortable or hostile. We often value not offending more than we value truth and self-reflection.

You seem to have a good heart, but telling people "things aren't as bad as you think" is no solution. it simply puts the blame on the people who no longer find any value in the feminized culture and and the feminized Gospel being preached.

Serragon
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Re: The “shortage of Mormon men”

Post by Serragon »

Sarah wrote: October 18th, 2017, 10:40 am
Well, like Brigham said in his day, if we ever get the call, "to your tents O Israel," because that's the only thing that would keep the people pure, you'll have plenty of manly things to do. You can chop all the wood you want and build lots of fires and guard us women while we tend the children and do all the cooking.

...

I do think men need to be with other men and be working together. My husband would like nothing more than to go on a mission again and be with the boys, so maybe that is what the men are longing for - that team feeling like they have when playing sports. Being at home with children is so not fun - I get it! But I think if men have the chance to be in a good presidency, they get that man-time they need. If men aren't involved in a good-working council or presidency, I can see how they would feel something was missing in their church service.
These comments are very condescending and show that you actually do not get it. Yours is is an extremely shallow interpretation of a serious problem.

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