LDS LIVING--Lesbian says, "heavenly father made me to be gay."

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Re: LDS LIVING--Lesbian says, "heavenly father made me to be gay."

Postby shadow » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:46 am

Finrock wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:53 am
Lizzy60 wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:29 pm
TrueIntent -- the statement that you highlighted, where she says that being a lesbian is a privilege and a blessing, is where she has turned the corner from praying for healing and change and release from her same-sex attraction, into deciding that there is nothing wrong with her attraction, and even calling it a privilege and a blessing, and that it's nothing to be ashamed of.

That is why it's a huge problem, to those of us who know it's a grievous sin, to have this printed in a magazine read by many LDS members.
Our weaknesses are privileges and they are blessings because these weaknesses that we have help us to become more reliant in God and on His grace and mercy. We should not feel ashamed for our weaknesses or guilt either. All of us fall short of the glory of God. So, in that sense I agree with the person in the article. We should not be motivated by guilt and by shame. Those are poor and damning motivators. We should be motivated by our love for God and for others knowing that when we fall, make a mistake, act in error, etc. this isn't a surprise to Heavenly Father. Its not like He says, "Oh, wow, I didn't expect you to screw up that bad! Man, that's more than I can handle, you're on your own buddy!" No, HF doesn't say that. He knows that we will fail, falter, and make errors, that we will sin. He is ever present, always ready to guide us in the paths of righteousness, regardless of our weakness. Those weaknesses can be made in to strengths and that is how these things were designed.

However, we can't suppose that our weakness is the end goal and what we ought to become.

-Finrock
Taking pride in our weaknesses tends to twist and make the weakness an honor, which it isn't. Weaknesses aren't trophies. We are never, ever justified by weaknesses. If we don't have some sort of negative feelings for our weaknesses then there is no motivating factor to change them. The gay movement is trying and succeeding in the delusion that homosexuality isn't a weakness but a strength that should be honored and celebrated. It's sickening.


31 For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance;
32 Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven;
33 And he that repents not, from him shall be taken even the light which he has received; for my Spirit shall not always strive with man, saith the Lord of Hosts.

Isaiah saw the gay pride movement IMO but it can be applied to any weakness-

9 ¶ The shew of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not. Woe unto their soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves.

They flaunt their weaknesses, "they hide it not". It doesn't matter what the weakness or what the sin is, celebrating it will bring a woe upon your soul.
This imminent stuff is taking for-freaking-ever...

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shadow
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Re: LDS LIVING--Lesbian says, "heavenly father made me to be gay."

Postby shadow » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:59 am

Elizabeth wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:38 pm
:( It is most disappointing that LDS Living would publish this article.
"Not only are there apostates within our midst, but there are also apostate doctrines that are sometimes taught in our classes and from our pulpits and that appear in our publications" -President Benson

Granted, LDS Living isn't considered a church publication, but it shows "apostates are within our midst."
This imminent stuff is taking for-freaking-ever...

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Re: LDS LIVING--Lesbian says, "heavenly father made me to be gay."

Postby Finrock » Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:27 am

shadow wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:46 am
Finrock wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:53 am
Lizzy60 wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:29 pm
TrueIntent -- the statement that you highlighted, where she says that being a lesbian is a privilege and a blessing, is where she has turned the corner from praying for healing and change and release from her same-sex attraction, into deciding that there is nothing wrong with her attraction, and even calling it a privilege and a blessing, and that it's nothing to be ashamed of.

That is why it's a huge problem, to those of us who know it's a grievous sin, to have this printed in a magazine read by many LDS members.
Our weaknesses are privileges and they are blessings because these weaknesses that we have help us to become more reliant in God and on His grace and mercy. We should not feel ashamed for our weaknesses or guilt either. All of us fall short of the glory of God. So, in that sense I agree with the person in the article. We should not be motivated by guilt and by shame. Those are poor and damning motivators. We should be motivated by our love for God and for others knowing that when we fall, make a mistake, act in error, etc. this isn't a surprise to Heavenly Father. Its not like He says, "Oh, wow, I didn't expect you to screw up that bad! Man, that's more than I can handle, you're on your own buddy!" No, HF doesn't say that. He knows that we will fail, falter, and make errors, that we will sin. He is ever present, always ready to guide us in the paths of righteousness, regardless of our weakness. Those weaknesses can be made in to strengths and that is how these things were designed.

However, we can't suppose that our weakness is the end goal and what we ought to become.

-Finrock
Taking pride in our weaknesses tends to twist and make the weakness an honor, which it isn't. Weaknesses aren't trophies. We are never, ever justified by weaknesses. If we don't have some sort of negative feelings for our weaknesses then there is no motivating factor to change them. The gay movement is trying and succeeding in the delusion that homosexuality isn't a weakness but a strength that should be honored and celebrated. It's sickening.


31 For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance;
32 Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven;
33 And he that repents not, from him shall be taken even the light which he has received; for my Spirit shall not always strive with man, saith the Lord of Hosts.

Isaiah saw the gay pride movement IMO but it can be applied to any weakness-

9 ¶ The shew of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not. Woe unto their soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves.

They flaunt their weaknesses, "they hide it not". It doesn't matter what the weakness or what the sin is, celebrating it will bring a woe upon your soul.
Either you didn't read my post carefully or you are just making a general comment unconnected to what I've said. In any case, its is a mistake to assume that the only motivators for change and action are negative ones.

-Finrock
"You can't reason with a wolf" -rewcox

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Re: LDS LIVING--Lesbian says, "heavenly father made me to be gay."

Postby captainfearnot » Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:29 am

Lizzy60 wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:17 pm
Yeah, and the brownies I'm bringing to you are mostly good. Only a few have poop in them, so just spit those out. :mrgreen:
I get the reference, and the metaphor has long been used with the youth to guide their choices regarding entertainment media. But do you really think it applies here? I don't think grappling with ideas that we disagree with is the same as consuming objectionable entertainment.

If we eschew anything that contradicts our current views, we contribute to the problem of ideological silos that plagues the political and cultural landscape today. Everyone now has the ability to surround themselves with only validating voices, if we choose, and to the degree that we avail ourselves of that ability, we become more polarized and less able to find common ground or even communicate effectively. (If everyone did this, who would the missionaries talk to?)

Everyone had to "eat the poop" just to participate in this thread. Of course I don't think we are defiled for having considered a viewpoint that we may disagree with. On the contrary, I think we are edified, because it helps us refine our own views when we analyze them in the context of contrary ideas. There is a worthwhile exchange going on here, which wouldn't be possible if we all refused to subject ourselves to intellectual adversity.

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Re: LDS LIVING--Lesbian says, "heavenly father made me to be gay."

Postby sandman45 » Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:46 am

TrueIntent wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:40 pm
one of the apostles acknowledges that "we don't know".....
I also believe that the church is currently teaching gay members to live a celibate lifestyle...that they will have to backtrack on that. This is an extreme teaching, and we shouldn't expect others to live a lifestyle that leadership and priesthood holders would struggle to live themselves (this is my personal opinion).
Why can't the Apostles ask?

We sustain them as Prophets, Seers and Revelators right?

Or maybe we already got the answer many years ago... God and his prophets are not going to force people into anything. So if the answer was already given ( I believe it was ) then we know what is happening now... the Saints (members) did not like it and now they are getting what they want not necessarily what God wants.

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Re: LDS LIVING--Lesbian says, "heavenly father made me to be gay."

Postby eddie » Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:57 am

Schools are promoting homosexuality in the name of anti-bullying.

Ephesians 4:14

"That we no more children tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine of men and by the sleight craftiness henceforth, whereby they lie in wait to deceive."
Talk to your children daily, de-brief them, if my children were young they would not be in public school.

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Re: LDS LIVING--Lesbian says, "heavenly father made me to be gay."

Postby Elizabeth » Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:05 am

http://mommyunderground.com/disgraceful ... rd-spiral/

"The liberal media knows no bounds when it comes to attacking conservatives and traditional family values, withtelevision reporting and programming, have become increasingly left-leaning in recent years.
It is a rare occurrence to tune into primetime or late-night television and find anything appropriate for families to watch together. The LGBT agenda, vulgar language, provocative sexual scenes, and anti-family sentiments fill the airwaves.

But one new show set to premiere on Netflix begs the question, how much further downhill can the entertainment industry go in its effort to gain ratings with disgraceful liberal rhetoric?

A new animated series, Big Mouth, is the creation of Nick Kroll, famous for working on another anti-family cartoon, Family Guy.
And like anything that promotes the liberal agenda and offends conservatives, late-night host Stephen Colbert was thrilled to promote the show by interviewing its writer.
LifeSite News reported:

Colbert introduced Kroll with great fanfare and eventually asked about the show. “Is this the kind of show that parents would sit down and watch with their children?”
Kroll smiled and said jokingly, “Steve, I’m going to leave that up to each and every individual parent.” Then he admitted, “It’s very dirty.”

“Big Mouth” features graphic masturbation, nocturnal emissions, “puberty fairies,” a giant condom creature, and “aching pubes.” A personified masturbation pillow falls in love with its abuser and wants to be more than just a “fling.”

Kroll got a lot of laughs with the line that his show “is kind of like the sex-ed video I wished I had gotten to see, but also, like, filthy.”

After Colbert promised a donation to the Puerto Rico hurricane relief for every celebrity that posts their 13-year-old “pubescent” picture on social media, he made the sign of the cross.

Colbert and his leftist colleagues seem to think it is funny that impressionable young people will tune into the show they jokingly refer to as “filthy.”
Because of his late-night time slot, Colbert is able to push the envelope during every show with his offensive behaviors and disgusting remarks.
He was in the news earlier this year for a verbal tirade against President Trump, full of offensive language which left even the most jaded viewers shocked.

Pro-family and Christian activists are warning parents about the offensive material presented inBig Mouth and chastising Colbert for continuing to promote morally reprehensible content on television.
Besides the vulgar language and imagery described in Big Mouth — including showing the genitals of young teens — critics point to the show becoming the latest to promote acceptance of sexualizing children.

Others express fears the show will become must-see TV for pedophiles and those who view child pornography.

Big Mouth obviously degrades and objectifies young women by making them nothing more than fodder for sexual fantasies, and normalizing sexual encounters and experimentation at a young age.

Because the show is animated, it gives the impression of innocence and fun – and will likely appeal to tweens and teens. And because of the animation, the explicit images depicted are not thought to be offensive in nature to the left.

This program, however, is taking American television further down a slippery slope, where the next television show will likely show images such as these played by live actors.The more shows like this that are allowed to appear – even on less regulated cable networks – the further television programming will fall into degradation.

Newsbusters reported:
The problems with the show are as follows: 1. Explicit depictions of young teens engaging in sexual activity. 2. The producers have labeled the show as aimed at young people. 3. The writer was originally working for Family Guy. That show is not meant for young adults. From what the trailer portrays, it seems doubtful that young adults will be watching the show. More likely, adults will be watching these scenes with graphic depictions of a young teenage girl’s private parts.

In 2011, conservative author and actor Ben Shapiro wrote a book called Primetime Propaganda, in which he recorded numerous television executives from major affiliates. In nearly every interview he conducted, the media execs admitted that Hollywood pushes the liberal agenda while targeting conservatives – and they have no intention of stopping.
“Television has been perhaps the most impressive weapon in the left’s political arsenal,” Shapiro argues in the book.

With television shows increasingly pushing liberal propaganda, it becomes even more imperative for conservative parents to monitor what their children and teens are watching.

Liberal television personalities like Stephen Colbert will continue to push – and encourage – the left’s disturbing agenda with the purpose of purging the airwaves of anything promoting conservative values or that is appropriate for families and children.

Pro-family groups are encouraging a boycott of Netflix – and Stephen Colbert’s late-night programming – in the hopes that a response from American families will slow the pace of immoral television shows debuting on the airwaves.
But with the media, Hollywood studios, and corporate television networks all in the left’s back pocket, it appears the worst is yet to come."
Doctrines of the Gospel are revealed through the Spirit to Prophets... not through the intellect to scholars.

JST Matt 10:30
Think not, that I am come to send peace on earth;
I came not to send peace, but a sword.

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Re: LDS LIVING--Lesbian says, "heavenly father made me to be gay."

Postby Mark » Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:12 am

6 Flee out of the midst of Babylon, and deliver every man his soul: be not cut off in her iniquity; for this is the time of the Lord’s vengeance; he will render unto her a recompence.
You are a true nothing Mark.

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Re: LDS LIVING--Lesbian says, "heavenly father made me to be gay."

Postby bbsion » Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:58 pm

TrueIntent wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:51 pm
Elizabeth wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:38 pm
:( It is most disappointing that LDS Living would publish this article.

Homosexuality is a joke, it is so seriously bizarre and so past ridiculous that is incredulous that any sane person could entertain this insanity. To think that anyone who lives this lifestyle could still expect exaltation in eternities, as has been suggested here on another thread, is troubleing to say the least.
It's sad that you would make this kind of a comment. For these people, it is a real experience....and for religious gay people, it is an overwhelming experience....it is real to them...and they don't take it lightly....can you imagine...there will be people all over the church and BYU campus reacting to this young girl who showed her "face"...with these same kind of hurtful comments. To have someone be called bizarre, or not sane, for something they genuinely believe is hurtful. You don't have to approve, or accept, or even believe what she believes....but it is real to her. You will find that God loves us infinitely, all of us, and I can not believe that he would send people to this earth to have an experience in which they will be never-endingly tormented by something they believe, and that feels real to them...we should assume she is doing her best....and we should do ours. This isn't the kind of comment that fosters love of others...period. Let me repeat what it feels like you are saying...."you aren't worthy of being in God's presence..your own creator...you would be insane and ridiculous to think that you, could be like him, and partake of his glory...because you believe he created you this way" This is why...the church published this article...so you could have time to learn to love others...and communicate that love..... so that people like you dont destroy the church.
I am not trying to take what you said out of context. I just wanted to address the bolded parts of your statement (not that I agree with the logic). Couldn't a similar argument be made for pedophiles and bestiality? Both of those are obviously seriously bizarre and ridiculous types of attraction. Beyond dispute, neither exist in the Celestial Kingdom. And guess what.... neither does homosexuality. You are letting your emotions cloud your judgment. Regarding those who embrace homosexuality we must forgive them for they know not what they do. Not indulge them in their sin.
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."

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Re: LDS LIVING--Lesbian says, "heavenly father made me to be gay."

Postby TrueIntent » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:52 am

bbsion wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:58 pm
TrueIntent wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:51 pm
Elizabeth wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:38 pm
:( It is most disappointing that LDS Living would publish this article.

Homosexuality is a joke, it is so seriously bizarre and so past ridiculous that is incredulous that any sane person could entertain this insanity. To think that anyone who lives this lifestyle could still expect exaltation in eternities, as has been suggested here on another thread, is troubleing to say the least.
It's sad that you would make this kind of a comment. For these people, it is a real experience....and for religious gay people, it is an overwhelming experience....it is real to them...and they don't take it lightly....can you imagine...there will be people all over the church and BYU campus reacting to this young girl who showed her "face"...with these same kind of hurtful comments. To have someone be called bizarre, or not sane, for something they genuinely believe is hurtful. You don't have to approve, or accept, or even believe what she believes....but it is real to her. You will find that God loves us infinitely, all of us, and I can not believe that he would send people to this earth to have an experience in which they will be never-endingly tormented by something they believe, and that feels real to them...we should assume she is doing her best....and we should do ours. This isn't the kind of comment that fosters love of others...period. Let me repeat what it feels like you are saying...."you aren't worthy of being in God's presence..your own creator...you would be insane and ridiculous to think that you, could be like him, and partake of his glory...because you believe he created you this way" This is why...the church published this article...so you could have time to learn to love others...and communicate that love..... so that people like you dont destroy the church.
I am not trying to take what you said out of context. I just wanted to address the bolded parts of your statement (not that I agree with the logic). Couldn't a similar argument be made for pedophiles and bestiality? Both of those are obviously seriously bizarre and ridiculous types of attraction. Beyond dispute, neither exist in the Celestial Kingdom. And guess what.... neither does homosexuality. You are letting your emotions cloud your judgment. Regarding those who embrace homosexuality we must forgive them for they know not what they do. Not indulge them in their sin.

Ok...let me separate the difference. Im going to assume (maybe wrongly, but I don't think so)....but that pedophiles and people practicing beastiality do it to gratify their lusts...they don't care if the child or animal does not like it, or if it harms them. In a relationship between husband and wife, there is a physical gratification sexual act that takes place, but it is because they both consent, they both supposedly are in love...and they do it more than just to procreate...they do it to express love, and those who have married in the name of God, have made a covenant between them and God, not them and the government to uphold their marriage. Homosexuals do the same thing in relationships (some do not, just like some heterosexuals have sex with others they are not married or in a committed relationship with.). So then the next argument would be....sex is only for marriage....I would say sure...under the Law (marriage is a manmade institution with a marriage license, UNLESS you make a covenant between you and the Lord...then it becomes a sealing). ...i believe scriptural there is the law and spirit of the law...Paul says that those "under the spirit are not under the law"...As members who choose exaltation, we are supposed to be living under the law UNTIL we offer a broken heart and contrite spirit, and then covenant to follow the spirit. ( I have been studying, and will attempt to prove when I get done finishing this topic...that there are gross errors in translation that limits most members understanding on this topic...which is why people can't tell the difference between beastiality, pedophila.....and homosexuality)....its actually very hurtful to people who have experienced these judgements.

I would also argue...love the person, hate the sin mentality, means you still "remember" the sin, and cast a judgement. I have found that a better move for me, is to mentally walk in someones shoes....cast no judgement, and let the Lord be the judge of their intentions...because grace will cover what we can not...and the amount of grace is dependent upon the individual...who am I to judge. It has also helped me, after studying some of these topics in the scriptures, to see that there were deliberate translation errors--so that it would cause others to err. it tells me, exactly what Jesus Christ, that one must exceed the righteousness of a pharisee before one can enter heaven...he didn't say sinner...he said pharisee...they couldn't see their sin, but it was in the judgement they cast. Anyway....im still studying the topic...it may take me a week or so to write my thoughts, but hopefully we can be more open minded after you read what I put together. I prefer the "I dont know, or I won't judge stance, or Im a sinner who sins differently stance, or maybe it's not a sin at all, but an error in understanding".

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Re: LDS LIVING--Lesbian says, "heavenly father made me to be gay."

Postby Serragon » Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:30 pm

TrueIntent wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:52 am
bbsion wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:58 pm
TrueIntent wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:51 pm
Elizabeth wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:38 pm
:( It is most disappointing that LDS Living would publish this article.

Homosexuality is a joke, it is so seriously bizarre and so past ridiculous that is incredulous that any sane person could entertain this insanity. To think that anyone who lives this lifestyle could still expect exaltation in eternities, as has been suggested here on another thread, is troubleing to say the least.
It's sad that you would make this kind of a comment. For these people, it is a real experience....and for religious gay people, it is an overwhelming experience....it is real to them...and they don't take it lightly....can you imagine...there will be people all over the church and BYU campus reacting to this young girl who showed her "face"...with these same kind of hurtful comments. To have someone be called bizarre, or not sane, for something they genuinely believe is hurtful. You don't have to approve, or accept, or even believe what she believes....but it is real to her. You will find that God loves us infinitely, all of us, and I can not believe that he would send people to this earth to have an experience in which they will be never-endingly tormented by something they believe, and that feels real to them...we should assume she is doing her best....and we should do ours. This isn't the kind of comment that fosters love of others...period. Let me repeat what it feels like you are saying...."you aren't worthy of being in God's presence..your own creator...you would be insane and ridiculous to think that you, could be like him, and partake of his glory...because you believe he created you this way" This is why...the church published this article...so you could have time to learn to love others...and communicate that love..... so that people like you dont destroy the church.
I am not trying to take what you said out of context. I just wanted to address the bolded parts of your statement (not that I agree with the logic). Couldn't a similar argument be made for pedophiles and bestiality? Both of those are obviously seriously bizarre and ridiculous types of attraction. Beyond dispute, neither exist in the Celestial Kingdom. And guess what.... neither does homosexuality. You are letting your emotions cloud your judgment. Regarding those who embrace homosexuality we must forgive them for they know not what they do. Not indulge them in their sin.

Ok...let me separate the difference. Im going to assume (maybe wrongly, but I don't think so)....but that pedophiles and people practicing beastiality do it to gratify their lusts...they don't care if the child or animal does not like it, or if it harms them. In a relationship between husband and wife, there is a physical gratification sexual act that takes place, but it is because they both consent, they both supposedly are in love...and they do it more than just to procreate...they do it to express love, and those who have married in the name of God, have made a covenant between them and God, not them and the government to uphold their marriage. Homosexuals do the same thing in relationships (some do not, just like some heterosexuals have sex with others they are not married or in a committed relationship with.). So then the next argument would be....sex is only for marriage....I would say sure...under the Law (marriage is a manmade institution with a marriage license, UNLESS you make a covenant between you and the Lord...then it becomes a sealing). ...i believe scriptural there is the law and spirit of the law...Paul says that those "under the spirit are not under the law"...As members who choose exaltation, we are supposed to be living under the law UNTIL we offer a broken heart and contrite spirit, and then covenant to follow the spirit. ( I have been studying, and will attempt to prove when I get done finishing this topic...that there are gross errors in translation that limits most members understanding on this topic...which is why people can't tell the difference between beastiality, pedophila.....and homosexuality)....its actually very hurtful to people who have experienced these judgements.

I would also argue...love the person, hate the sin mentality, means you still "remember" the sin, and cast a judgement. I have found that a better move for me, is to mentally walk in someones shoes....cast no judgement, and let the Lord be the judge of their intentions...because grace will cover what we can not...and the amount of grace is dependent upon the individual...who am I to judge. It has also helped me, after studying some of these topics in the scriptures, to see that there were deliberate translation errors--so that it would cause others to err. it tells me, exactly what Jesus Christ, that one must exceed the righteousness of a pharisee before one can enter heaven...he didn't say sinner...he said pharisee...they couldn't see their sin, but it was in the judgement they cast. Anyway....im still studying the topic...it may take me a week or so to write my thoughts, but hopefully we can be more open minded after you read what I put together. I prefer the "I dont know, or I won't judge stance, or Im a sinner who sins differently stance, or maybe it's not a sin at all, but an error in understanding".
These same arguments can be made for incestuous relationships. And adulterous relationships. And plural marriage relationships. And Pedophiles, too, to some extent. We socially consider adults to be age 18+, but biology says otherwise. It is not unheard of for a legal adult and a non-legal but biologically ready child to want to express love for each other.

It isn't about 2 people wanting to express love. You are missing the entire point. All sin can be rationalized if you abstract away far enough.

The Lord does not require that we do not judge. He requires that we judge righteously. Walking in the shoes of another is a good first step, but if not accompanied with a judgement of some sort it actually makes the first step irrelevant. Why develop empathy for a person or situation if you are unwilling to do anything with that empathy? The empathy is to help you understand them, love them, and help to get them back on the right course.

I believe your ideology to be satanic, not Christian. i think you mean well, but the result of your system is that more people will be saddled by the chains of their carnal natural man, with no hope or path to freedom. Although it is couched in expressions of love, it really doesn't show any love at all to the sinner as it will never bring them to repentance. Instead, it is really just an ideology to make you feel better about yourself. You feel loving. You feel open minded. You feel accepting. You feel enlightened. Yet the poor homosexual is damned to a life of bondage to their desires.

I wish you well on your endeavors to finally key upon the correct translation of the scriptures after all these thousands of years. I keep an open mind that I could be wrong about my viewpoints, so I will read your findings with interest. I must admit I find it highly unlikely you will discover anything new, however. It would be truly remarkable if something considered a heinous sin by all Jews/Christians from the time of Abraham were just a misunderstanding.

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Re: LDS LIVING--Lesbian says, "heavenly father made me to be gay."

Postby bbsion » Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:54 pm

TrueIntent wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:52 am
bbsion wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:58 pm
TrueIntent wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:51 pm
Elizabeth wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:38 pm
:( It is most disappointing that LDS Living would publish this article.

Homosexuality is a joke, it is so seriously bizarre and so past ridiculous that is incredulous that any sane person could entertain this insanity. To think that anyone who lives this lifestyle could still expect exaltation in eternities, as has been suggested here on another thread, is troubleing to say the least.
It's sad that you would make this kind of a comment. For these people, it is a real experience....and for religious gay people, it is an overwhelming experience....it is real to them...and they don't take it lightly....can you imagine...there will be people all over the church and BYU campus reacting to this young girl who showed her "face"...with these same kind of hurtful comments. To have someone be called bizarre, or not sane, for something they genuinely believe is hurtful. You don't have to approve, or accept, or even believe what she believes....but it is real to her. You will find that God loves us infinitely, all of us, and I can not believe that he would send people to this earth to have an experience in which they will be never-endingly tormented by something they believe, and that feels real to them...we should assume she is doing her best....and we should do ours. This isn't the kind of comment that fosters love of others...period. Let me repeat what it feels like you are saying...."you aren't worthy of being in God's presence..your own creator...you would be insane and ridiculous to think that you, could be like him, and partake of his glory...because you believe he created you this way" This is why...the church published this article...so you could have time to learn to love others...and communicate that love..... so that people like you dont destroy the church.
I am not trying to take what you said out of context. I just wanted to address the bolded parts of your statement (not that I agree with the logic). Couldn't a similar argument be made for pedophiles and bestiality? Both of those are obviously seriously bizarre and ridiculous types of attraction. Beyond dispute, neither exist in the Celestial Kingdom. And guess what.... neither does homosexuality. You are letting your emotions cloud your judgment. Regarding those who embrace homosexuality we must forgive them for they know not what they do. Not indulge them in their sin.


I would also argue...love the person, hate the sin mentality, means you still "remember" the sin, and cast a judgement.
I don't follow your logic with your entire post and I don't feel the need to respond to everything you said. Please do not take offense to that.
But I have heard this statement several times from too many people and it feels like a cop out. I would not encourage my children to fornicate the same as I would not encourage them to engage in homosexuality. Just because I tell someone that homosexuality is a sin that does not mean I hate them and I am "judging" them. I'm just telling them that it is out of order with Gods law, which is what sin is. I know I am not perfect, but if everyone waited until they were perfect to preach a gospel doctrine then all of earth would be without knowledge of the gospel.

I can respect that you are at least doing research before really delving much further into this topic. But, your research will either bring you to the truth of homosexuality, which is that it is a sin, or you will be deceived.
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."

Thomas Jefferson

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Re: LDS LIVING--Lesbian says, "heavenly father made me to be gay."

Postby TrueIntent » Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:25 pm

Serragon wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:30 pm
TrueIntent wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:52 am
bbsion wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:58 pm
TrueIntent wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:51 pm


It's sad that you would make this kind of a comment. For these people, it is a real experience....and for religious gay people, it is an overwhelming experience....it is real to them...and they don't take it lightly....can you imagine...there will be people all over the church and BYU campus reacting to this young girl who showed her "face"...with these same kind of hurtful comments. To have someone be called bizarre, or not sane, for something they genuinely believe is hurtful. You don't have to approve, or accept, or even believe what she believes....but it is real to her. You will find that God loves us infinitely, all of us, and I can not believe that he would send people to this earth to have an experience in which they will be never-endingly tormented by something they believe, and that feels real to them...we should assume she is doing her best....and we should do ours. This isn't the kind of comment that fosters love of others...period. Let me repeat what it feels like you are saying...."you aren't worthy of being in God's presence..your own creator...you would be insane and ridiculous to think that you, could be like him, and partake of his glory...because you believe he created you this way" This is why...the church published this article...so you could have time to learn to love others...and communicate that love..... so that people like you dont destroy the church.
I am not trying to take what you said out of context. I just wanted to address the bolded parts of your statement (not that I agree with the logic). Couldn't a similar argument be made for pedophiles and bestiality? Both of those are obviously seriously bizarre and ridiculous types of attraction. Beyond dispute, neither exist in the Celestial Kingdom. And guess what.... neither does homosexuality. You are letting your emotions cloud your judgment. Regarding those who embrace homosexuality we must forgive them for they know not what they do. Not indulge them in their sin.

Ok...let me separate the difference. Im going to assume (maybe wrongly, but I don't think so)....but that pedophiles and people practicing beastiality do it to gratify their lusts...they don't care if the child or animal does not like it, or if it harms them. In a relationship between husband and wife, there is a physical gratification sexual act that takes place, but it is because they both consent, they both supposedly are in love...and they do it more than just to procreate...they do it to express love, and those who have married in the name of God, have made a covenant between them and God, not them and the government to uphold their marriage. Homosexuals do the same thing in relationships (some do not, just like some heterosexuals have sex with others they are not married or in a committed relationship with.). So then the next argument would be....sex is only for marriage....I would say sure...under the Law (marriage is a manmade institution with a marriage license, UNLESS you make a covenant between you and the Lord...then it becomes a sealing). ...i believe scriptural there is the law and spirit of the law...Paul says that those "under the spirit are not under the law"...As members who choose exaltation, we are supposed to be living under the law UNTIL we offer a broken heart and contrite spirit, and then covenant to follow the spirit. ( I have been studying, and will attempt to prove when I get done finishing this topic...that there are gross errors in translation that limits most members understanding on this topic...which is why people can't tell the difference between beastiality, pedophila.....and homosexuality)....its actually very hurtful to people who have experienced these judgements.

I would also argue...love the person, hate the sin mentality, means you still "remember" the sin, and cast a judgement. I have found that a better move for me, is to mentally walk in someones shoes....cast no judgement, and let the Lord be the judge of their intentions...because grace will cover what we can not...and the amount of grace is dependent upon the individual...who am I to judge. It has also helped me, after studying some of these topics in the scriptures, to see that there were deliberate translation errors--so that it would cause others to err. it tells me, exactly what Jesus Christ, that one must exceed the righteousness of a pharisee before one can enter heaven...he didn't say sinner...he said pharisee...they couldn't see their sin, but it was in the judgement they cast. Anyway....im still studying the topic...it may take me a week or so to write my thoughts, but hopefully we can be more open minded after you read what I put together. I prefer the "I dont know, or I won't judge stance, or Im a sinner who sins differently stance, or maybe it's not a sin at all, but an error in understanding".
These same arguments can be made for incestuous relationships. And adulterous relationships. And plural marriage relationships. And Pedophiles, too, to some extent. We socially consider adults to be age 18+, but biology says otherwise. It is not unheard of for a legal adult and a non-legal but biologically ready child to want to express love for each other.

It isn't about 2 people wanting to express love. You are missing the entire point. All sin can be rationalized if you abstract away far enough.

The Lord does not require that we do not judge. He requires that we judge righteously. Walking in the shoes of another is a good first step, but if not accompanied with a judgement of some sort it actually makes the first step irrelevant. Why develop empathy for a person or situation if you are unwilling to do anything with that empathy? The empathy is to help you understand them, love them, and help to get them back on the right course.

I believe your ideology to be satanic, not Christian. i think you mean well, but the result of your system is that more people will be saddled by the chains of their carnal natural man, with no hope or path to freedom. Although it is couched in expressions of love, it really doesn't show any love at all to the sinner as it will never bring them to repentance. Instead, it is really just an ideology to make you feel better about yourself. You feel loving. You feel open minded. You feel accepting. You feel enlightened. Yet the poor homosexual is damned to a life of bondage to their desires.

I wish you well on your endeavors to finally key upon the correct translation of the scriptures after all these thousands of years. I keep an open mind that I could be wrong about my viewpoints, so I will read your findings with interest. I must admit I find it highly unlikely you will discover anything new, however. It would be truly remarkable if something considered a heinous sin by all Jews/Christians from the time of Abraham were just a misunderstanding.
So, have you ever had a direct conversation with a gay person about this? i don't think Im the one who is acting enlightened...im not assuming that I know how to put "them" back on their course. They're not asking for it. All i know, is that I have experienced what repentance feels like...it brought with it healing, and a change of being...these people aren't receiving a change of being...tell me why? i don't believe its because they aren't truly trying to bring a broken heart and contrite spirit.

I don't claim to be enlightened. I don't care if you think my ideology is satanic. That's on you not me...i know Im good with God. But Trust me, if you can just be willing to read a few of the things I post when Im done...my hope is you will leave a little more open minded....you don't have to accept anything, believe anything, condone anything...or preach anything...just be willing to walk away and say...hmmmm...maybe its not as cut and dry as i thought it was...maybe the early christian translators had become biased and altered texts, maybe christianity in general has been tagging scriptures to homosexuality that never should have been....thats all I'm saying.

It opens your heart....it gives you an opportunity to say, I don't know...so I will just love them, and assume they are doing their best. All i know, is that adultery...according to scripture, especially those who have made a covenant with God, are under way greater condemnation that any other sexual sin--it is shocking to me that cultural positions we take against homosexuals. Im just saying....homosexuality seems to take center stage....adultery in a covenant marriage (male and female as the church defines it). by the way...it wasn't considered a heinous sin by all jews throughout history...im going to explain that....why do you think they cut the heterosexual males foreskin on his penis for the covenant amongst the jews up until christ....they had issues themselves. I think in the church, we don't completely understand the covenants we have made, and we like to judge others as more grevious sins than ours....i don't think we understand what we do.

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Re: LDS LIVING--Lesbian says, "heavenly father made me to be gay."

Postby TrueIntent » Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:27 pm

bbsion wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:54 pm
TrueIntent wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:52 am
bbsion wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:58 pm
TrueIntent wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:51 pm


It's sad that you would make this kind of a comment. For these people, it is a real experience....and for religious gay people, it is an overwhelming experience....it is real to them...and they don't take it lightly....can you imagine...there will be people all over the church and BYU campus reacting to this young girl who showed her "face"...with these same kind of hurtful comments. To have someone be called bizarre, or not sane, for something they genuinely believe is hurtful. You don't have to approve, or accept, or even believe what she believes....but it is real to her. You will find that God loves us infinitely, all of us, and I can not believe that he would send people to this earth to have an experience in which they will be never-endingly tormented by something they believe, and that feels real to them...we should assume she is doing her best....and we should do ours. This isn't the kind of comment that fosters love of others...period. Let me repeat what it feels like you are saying...."you aren't worthy of being in God's presence..your own creator...you would be insane and ridiculous to think that you, could be like him, and partake of his glory...because you believe he created you this way" This is why...the church published this article...so you could have time to learn to love others...and communicate that love..... so that people like you dont destroy the church.
I am not trying to take what you said out of context. I just wanted to address the bolded parts of your statement (not that I agree with the logic). Couldn't a similar argument be made for pedophiles and bestiality? Both of those are obviously seriously bizarre and ridiculous types of attraction. Beyond dispute, neither exist in the Celestial Kingdom. And guess what.... neither does homosexuality. You are letting your emotions cloud your judgment. Regarding those who embrace homosexuality we must forgive them for they know not what they do. Not indulge them in their sin.


I would also argue...love the person, hate the sin mentality, means you still "remember" the sin, and cast a judgement.
I don't follow your logic with your entire post and I don't feel the need to respond to everything you said. Please do not take offense to that.
But I have heard this statement several times from too many people and it feels like a cop out. I would not encourage my children to fornicate the same as I would not encourage them to engage in homosexuality. Just because I tell someone that homosexuality is a sin that does not mean I hate them and I am "judging" them. I'm just telling them that it is out of order with Gods law, which is what sin is. I know I am not perfect, but if everyone waited until they were perfect to preach a gospel doctrine then all of earth would be without knowledge of the gospel.

I can respect that you are at least doing research before really delving much further into this topic. But, your research will either bring you to the truth of homosexuality, which is that it is a sin, or you will be deceived.
i don't believe in fornicating either...everyone on this thread seems to think homosexuality equals fornication. it doesnt. I believe in committed, monogamous, relationships...where one binds themselves through a sealing. Period. ....ive already done the research...im just having to go back and reread it and type it up for you guys...who haven't done the research. Im the one whose getting judged here on this. Study the other side of the argument. i would never encourage my children to fornicate either. Homosexuality does not equal fornication.

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Re: LDS LIVING--Lesbian says, "heavenly father made me to be gay."

Postby Elizabeth » Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:36 pm

Of course it does not, there is no legitimate comparison. Homosexuality is far far far worse, it is serious depravity.
TrueIntent wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:27 pm
Homosexuality does not equal fornication.
Doctrines of the Gospel are revealed through the Spirit to Prophets... not through the intellect to scholars.

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Think not, that I am come to send peace on earth;
I came not to send peace, but a sword.

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Re: LDS LIVING--Lesbian says, "heavenly father made me to be gay."

Postby bbsion » Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:09 am

Elizabeth wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:36 pm
Of course it does not, there is no legitimate comparison. Homosexuality is far far far worse, it is serious depravity.
TrueIntent wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:27 pm
Homosexuality does not equal fornication.
Very true. I should reword what I said maybe if it implies that fornication is as heinous.

TrueIntent wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:27 pm
bbsion wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:54 pm
TrueIntent wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:52 am
bbsion wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:58 pm


I am not trying to take what you said out of context. I just wanted to address the bolded parts of your statement (not that I agree with the logic). Couldn't a similar argument be made for pedophiles and bestiality? Both of those are obviously seriously bizarre and ridiculous types of attraction. Beyond dispute, neither exist in the Celestial Kingdom. And guess what.... neither does homosexuality. You are letting your emotions cloud your judgment. Regarding those who embrace homosexuality we must forgive them for they know not what they do. Not indulge them in their sin.


I would also argue...love the person, hate the sin mentality, means you still "remember" the sin, and cast a judgement.
I don't follow your logic with your entire post and I don't feel the need to respond to everything you said. Please do not take offense to that.
But I have heard this statement several times from too many people and it feels like a cop out. I would not encourage my children to fornicate the same as I would not encourage them to engage in homosexuality. Just because I tell someone that homosexuality is a sin that does not mean I hate them and I am "judging" them. I'm just telling them that it is out of order with Gods law, which is what sin is. I know I am not perfect, but if everyone waited until they were perfect to preach a gospel doctrine then all of earth would be without knowledge of the gospel.

I can respect that you are at least doing research before really delving much further into this topic. But, your research will either bring you to the truth of homosexuality, which is that it is a sin, or you will be deceived.
i don't believe in fornicating either...everyone on this thread seems to think homosexuality equals fornication. it doesnt. I believe in committed, monogamous, relationships...where one binds themselves through a sealing. Period. ....ive already done the research...im just having to go back and reread it and type it up for you guys...who haven't done the research. Im the one whose getting judged here on this. Study the other side of the argument. i would never encourage my children to fornicate either. Homosexuality does not equal fornication.
That's a massive assumption that no one else has done research. I also think you might be confused on what "judging" means. Just because we disagree with you, that does not mean we judge you. From everything I've read, God does not recognize homosexual marriages. So anyone who actually engages in homosexual intercourse, legally married or not, are fornicating.
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."

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Re: LDS LIVING--Lesbian says, "heavenly father made me to be gay."

Postby Robin Hood » Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:31 am

Elizabeth wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:05 am
http://mommyunderground.com/disgraceful ... rd-spiral/

"The liberal media knows no bounds when it comes to attacking conservatives and traditional family values, withtelevision reporting and programming, have become increasingly left-leaning in recent years.
It is a rare occurrence to tune into primetime or late-night television and find anything appropriate for families to watch together. The LGBT agenda, vulgar language, provocative sexual scenes, and anti-family sentiments fill the airwaves.

But one new show set to premiere on Netflix begs the question, how much further downhill can the entertainment industry go in its effort to gain ratings with disgraceful liberal rhetoric?

A new animated series, Big Mouth, is the creation of Nick Kroll, famous for working on another anti-family cartoon, Family Guy.
And like anything that promotes the liberal agenda and offends conservatives, late-night host Stephen Colbert was thrilled to promote the show by interviewing its writer.
LifeSite News reported:

Colbert introduced Kroll with great fanfare and eventually asked about the show. “Is this the kind of show that parents would sit down and watch with their children?”
Kroll smiled and said jokingly, “Steve, I’m going to leave that up to each and every individual parent.” Then he admitted, “It’s very dirty.”

“Big Mouth” features graphic masturbation, nocturnal emissions, “puberty fairies,” a giant condom creature, and “aching pubes.” A personified masturbation pillow falls in love with its abuser and wants to be more than just a “fling.”

Kroll got a lot of laughs with the line that his show “is kind of like the sex-ed video I wished I had gotten to see, but also, like, filthy.”

After Colbert promised a donation to the Puerto Rico hurricane relief for every celebrity that posts their 13-year-old “pubescent” picture on social media, he made the sign of the cross.

Colbert and his leftist colleagues seem to think it is funny that impressionable young people will tune into the show they jokingly refer to as “filthy.”
Because of his late-night time slot, Colbert is able to push the envelope during every show with his offensive behaviors and disgusting remarks.
He was in the news earlier this year for a verbal tirade against President Trump, full of offensive language which left even the most jaded viewers shocked.

Pro-family and Christian activists are warning parents about the offensive material presented inBig Mouth and chastising Colbert for continuing to promote morally reprehensible content on television.
Besides the vulgar language and imagery described in Big Mouth — including showing the genitals of young teens — critics point to the show becoming the latest to promote acceptance of sexualizing children.

Others express fears the show will become must-see TV for pedophiles and those who view child pornography.

Big Mouth obviously degrades and objectifies young women by making them nothing more than fodder for sexual fantasies, and normalizing sexual encounters and experimentation at a young age.

Because the show is animated, it gives the impression of innocence and fun – and will likely appeal to tweens and teens. And because of the animation, the explicit images depicted are not thought to be offensive in nature to the left.

This program, however, is taking American television further down a slippery slope, where the next television show will likely show images such as these played by live actors.The more shows like this that are allowed to appear – even on less regulated cable networks – the further television programming will fall into degradation.

Newsbusters reported:
The problems with the show are as follows: 1. Explicit depictions of young teens engaging in sexual activity. 2. The producers have labeled the show as aimed at young people. 3. The writer was originally working for Family Guy. That show is not meant for young adults. From what the trailer portrays, it seems doubtful that young adults will be watching the show. More likely, adults will be watching these scenes with graphic depictions of a young teenage girl’s private parts.

In 2011, conservative author and actor Ben Shapiro wrote a book called Primetime Propaganda, in which he recorded numerous television executives from major affiliates. In nearly every interview he conducted, the media execs admitted that Hollywood pushes the liberal agenda while targeting conservatives – and they have no intention of stopping.
“Television has been perhaps the most impressive weapon in the left’s political arsenal,” Shapiro argues in the book.

With television shows increasingly pushing liberal propaganda, it becomes even more imperative for conservative parents to monitor what their children and teens are watching.

Liberal television personalities like Stephen Colbert will continue to push – and encourage – the left’s disturbing agenda with the purpose of purging the airwaves of anything promoting conservative values or that is appropriate for families and children.

Pro-family groups are encouraging a boycott of Netflix – and Stephen Colbert’s late-night programming – in the hopes that a response from American families will slow the pace of immoral television shows debuting on the airwaves.
But with the media, Hollywood studios, and corporate television networks all in the left’s back pocket, it appears the worst is yet to come."
This is one of the reasons why I no longer watch TV.
Since I quit watching I have found the house to be more quiet and peaceful, and my evenings seem longer.

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Re: LDS LIVING--Lesbian says, "heavenly father made me to be gay."

Postby Thinker » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:58 am

captainfearnot wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:35 am
Thinker wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:54 am
Love is not kissing up and essentially saying, “Sure - go ahead hurt yourself & others, anything you want I just want MYSELF to seem like a good guy so I will go along with whatever harmful insanity you want.”

Love is acknowledging what is, while striving for what is best.
According to US nation-wide gathered health reports, those practicing homosexuality have many more cases of STDs, AIDs/HIV, mental illness & anal sex complications.
Thinker, a lot of your reasoning in opposition to homosexuality seems to center on the health risks associated with it. This seems like a non-sequitur to me for several reasons.

First of all, is it your opinion that if the health risks associated with homosexuality could be completely mitigated, then it would cease to be immoral? Somehow I doubt it. Same sex contact would still be deemed immoral by the church, I'm guessing, so why even bring up the health risks at all?
First of all, a non-sequitur is "a conclusion or statement that does not logically follow from the previous argument or statement."
I never stated that if reality was not as it was, there would be no moral problem. Why would I?
Why are you pulling out another straw-man - suggesting reality not exist - suggesting that homosexual health risks that are KNOWN -are not real???

Moral means, "concerned with the principles of right and wrong behavior and the goodness or badness of human character."
What is immoral is pretending behavior KNOWN to be harmful - is "gay rainbows" when it isn't.
Most of the people I'm writing to on this forum are NOT dealing with homosexual issues - but are being subject to constant lies that homosexuality is fine.
It is immoral to lie to people and even more immoral when such lies can and will result in suffering.
It is moral to correct lies - to state medical and statistical facts in order to help prevent suffering.

What you have done is attempted other logical fallacies like mind-projection (you are assuming my opinion), red-herring (you're distracting by suggesting that "IF" reality was not as it is - then I'd be wrong), appeal to authority (assuming the church are specialists in human development, psychology and sexuality when they are not) and straw-man (assuming my opinion to be what is convenient for YOU to easily refute).
Secondly, anal sex is not synonymous with homosexuality. There are plenty of gays who never do it, and there are plenty of straights who do. If your crusade is against anal sex, then why would the sexual orientation of the participants matter?
Now you can say non-sequitur. Just because some people with homosexual preferences do not engage in anal sex, does NOT mean that anal sex risks do not apply to the many who DO engage in it.
I thought that would be so self-evident, but I guess not.
Then there are the health parameters in which gays, as a population, fare better than straights.
Prove it.
The research shows the opposite.
If we can find studies that show that gays are less likely than straights to be obese, for instance, is that relevant to the morality of homosexuality? Of course not.
Even though you have not shown any proof of this- the overall health of those practicing homosexuality is much less as evident by their shorter life-spans, high rates of STDs, HIV/AIDS, mental illness, incarsaration, drug use etc. So even if they were skinnier, it doesn't mean they are healthier, if they are on the road to sickness and premature death.

You're picking out one little thing that isn't even factual - just your hypothetical guess - and then assuming that based on your illogical reasoning, we should forget any morality - since your pretend attempt failed so miserably.
Finally, is increased risk to personal health and safety always immoral? If it's immoral to engage in anal sex because of the health risks, is it also immoral to ride a motorcycle to work? Is it immoral to be overweight? My life insurance application asks me if I smoke, if I'm overweight, and if I race cars, scuba dive, or pilot private planes, but it doesn't ask me if I engage in anal sex.
Seems like there are lots of things we can do that put our lives at risk for the sake of fun and recreation, but most of us don't consider all of them to be immoral. We generally allow adults to assess risks to their person and make their own decisions accordingly.
Again, that does not logically follow. In church, we discussed similarly - how the word of wisdom does not tell you NOT to drink poison. There are a lot of things that are known to be unhealthy - and many things that need to be proactively lived to be healthy. None of them are contained in the definition of moral. But again moral is "concerned with the principles of right and wrong behavior and the goodness or badness of human character." If you know the consequence of trying to force an anatomical structure to be an entrance when it was designed to be an exit only - and if you encourage such harmful behavior anyway - you are acting immoral by trying to deceive people into engaging in behavior that will hurt them.
Thinker wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:54 am
Why would anyone encourage behavior KNOWN to be harmful?
captainfearnot wrote:Gay adults, like straight adults, can study the statistics on their own (or not, as they choose) and decide what activities they want to engage in accordingly. If being gay (or acting on same sex attraction, as the church seems to put it nowadays) is a sin, then people who want to live the LDS version of a moral lifestyle must refrain from it. But I don't think it follows that homosexuality is immoral because anal sex carries a health risk.
"Moral: concerned with the principles of right and wrong behavior and the goodness or badness of human character."
Anal sex is wrong behavior - anatomically - so it's factually wrong to try to use the anus for sex because it's designed for excretion.
This is medical fact we all can attest to.
So it is immoral medically and as to one's health.
It is also immoral for you to pretend something that is known to be harmful, to be good and ok.

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Re: LDS LIVING--Lesbian says, "heavenly father made me to be gay."

Postby Daniel2 » Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:10 am

There are so many anti-gay themes being thrown around that it's hard to make sense of them. It's like an agenda-driven word-cloud of mudslinging, with very little regard to facts.

I'm going to try to limit my posts to short sound-bites that are limited to one issue at a time.

To start with: at the individual level, homosexual behavior doesn't lead to STDs any more or less than heterosexual behavior leads to STDs. The determining factor of the risk of transmitting diseases through sexual behavior isn't the gender of the person one is having sex with; the determining factor of transmitting disease through sexual behavior is the number of people one is having sex with.

Two monogamous people who are healthy and free of STDs--whether they're the same gender or different genders--won't spontaneously generate STDs by engaging in sexual activities with one another and infect each other. One has to have received the STD from an external party.

In other words, acquisition of STDs is the result of contact with an infected person while engaging in non-monogamous, promiscuous behavior (regardless of the gender of the person you're engaging in sexual activities with).

Concerning promiscuity: again, speaking on an individual basis: monogamy or promiscuity or celibacy are all individual choices. No individual automatically defaults to the behaviors or classifications of statistics that may apply to those who make other life choices. While it's clear that statistically, gay men engage in higher rates of promiscuous behaviors, lesbian women engage in higher rates of monogamy than even their straight counterparts. None of those statistics need dictate personal choices we all make to do something more healthy than a trend that applies to the majority. The majority of adults and children in the USA are overweight; that statistic need not define our own personal choices to eat healthy, exercise, and get enough sleep.

It IS possible to live in a committed, monogamous, STD-free, and emotionally, mentally, and sexually-healthy relationship, regardless of the gender of the two individuals involved.

One can acknowledge the statistics and make healthy choices. Additionally, prohibiting gay couples from civilly marrying one another obviously didn't work and in all likelihood contributed to the subversive, reckless, and irresponsible behaviors that led to the proliferation of STDs in gay men... as well as the depression, alcohol consumption, drug use, etc. There was never really an option until recently for same-sex couples to live openly without fear of persecution. I will continue to support efforts to offer and encourage same-sex couples the chance to live committed, healthy, sexually-responsible lives and make healthier choices. History has shown that banning same-sex behavior only made things worse. And I submit that same result and the same statistics would likely play out if straight relationships were ever banned (meaning, if heterosexuals lived in a totalitarian government that banned forming couples and engaging in sex, straight people would still engage in sexual couplings, at increased rates of promiscuity, resulting in higher rates of STDs, drug use, alcoholism, and depression).

As gay and lesbians integrate into society, we'll remove the barriers and prohibitions that led to the unhealthy behaviors that resulted in the horrifying statistical fall-out that we face from decades of repression and banning a segment of our population's ability to express love and form families.
Have compassion for everyone you meet, even if they don't want it. What seems conceit, bad manners, or cynicism is always a sign of things no ears have heard, no eyes have seen. You do not know what wars are going on down where the spirit meets the bone.

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Re: LDS LIVING--Lesbian says, "heavenly father made me to be gay."

Postby Fiannan » Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:22 am

I was just waiting for people who support traditional morality to get blamed for all the problems:
As gay and lesbians integrate into society, we'll remove the barriers and prohibitions that led to the unhealthy behaviors that resulted in the horrifying statistical fall-out that we face from decades of repression and banning a segment of our population's ability to express love and form families.
"One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors."
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Re: LDS LIVING--Lesbian says, "heavenly father made me to be gay."

Postby TrueIntent » Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:23 am

bbsion wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:09 am
Elizabeth wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:36 pm
Of course it does not, there is no legitimate comparison. Homosexuality is far far far worse, it is serious depravity.
TrueIntent wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:27 pm
Homosexuality does not equal fornication.
Very true. I should reword what I said maybe if it implies that fornication is as heinous.

TrueIntent wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:27 pm
bbsion wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:54 pm
TrueIntent wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:52 am


I would also argue...love the person, hate the sin mentality, means you still "remember" the sin, and cast a judgement.
I don't follow your logic with your entire post and I don't feel the need to respond to everything you said. Please do not take offense to that.
But I have heard this statement several times from too many people and it feels like a cop out. I would not encourage my children to fornicate the same as I would not encourage them to engage in homosexuality. Just because I tell someone that homosexuality is a sin that does not mean I hate them and I am "judging" them. I'm just telling them that it is out of order with Gods law, which is what sin is. I know I am not perfect, but if everyone waited until they were perfect to preach a gospel doctrine then all of earth would be without knowledge of the gospel.

I can respect that you are at least doing research before really delving much further into this topic. But, your research will either bring you to the truth of homosexuality, which is that it is a sin, or you will be deceived.
i don't believe in fornicating either...everyone on this thread seems to think homosexuality equals fornication. it doesnt. I believe in committed, monogamous, relationships...where one binds themselves through a sealing. Period. ....ive already done the research...im just having to go back and reread it and type it up for you guys...who haven't done the research. Im the one whose getting judged here on this. Study the other side of the argument. i would never encourage my children to fornicate either. Homosexuality does not equal fornication.
That's a massive assumption that no one else has done research. I also think you might be confused on what "judging" means. Just because we disagree with you, that does not mean we judge you. From everything I've read, God does not recognize homosexual marriages. So anyone who actually engages in homosexual intercourse, legally married or not, are fornicating.
Im not talking about judging me for my position...I don't care if you "judge me" personally. i can tell you haven't done you're research ...youve never read the other side of the debate (and I'm talking about scripture on this...interpretation, translation....maybe you should start studying up so that you can rebuttal what I present). I can tell none of you have done it...it's a foreign topic to you (the other side).....Thats a bold statement to make right....but its obvious...im not going to beat around the bush.

We, as a church, contradict scripture in our teaching of it..Why is no one asking the question, Why does the church's position appear to contradict scripture??? These are the questions that lead us to know answers. Why can't we get a good position scripturally on this topic? Why does a broken heart and contrite spirit not offer a change of heart and being? The scriptures teach our thoughts matter....the church says it doesnt matter if we don't act on it. This is a contradiction....my position won't contradict anything found in scripture...it will just clarify things. Why will no one ask questions when they see a contradiction and seek for higher answers? Its takes work. and research...there is lot's of research on this topic...and yes, a lot of it is put out by the gay community, but it's not flawed, and very valid. People are rejecting scholarly work for no other reason than their religious bias (this happened in the days of Christ..its all over the new testament). This same thing has occurred in my studies of women and religion. It's all over the place. The scribes and pharisees "hid the keys of knowledge" and they are still doing it today, to keep men from entering the gate.

we would have to acknowledge we were wrong and change ourselves. Someone in an early post said something like...yeah, after 1000 of years, you think you will come up with new answers....Im not presenting new answers...the information is there, it's published by scholars in many areas. Im presenting something that exists...and is all over the place...even on wikipedia, but is not acknowledge by mainstream Christianity, because they would also have to acknowledged that people were tormented, and even murdered in other cultures for their sexual orientation based on a flawed interpretation, and flawed understanding of scripture. Thats a hard pill to swallow...the region of peace and love that claims to follow christ. In general, people will have to call on leaders to acknowledge this. It's even on wikipedia....and i quote straight from wikipedia for you in the first paragraph... "Sodom and Gomorrah have been used historically and today as metaphors for vice and homosexuality, although a close reading of the text and other Ancient Near Eastern sources suggest that this association may be incorrect.[8] "

You're going to have to be willing to read what I teach with an open mind...not because it's not true...but because we are heavily culturally biased on this subject. HEAVILY....your natural man is gonna say...this can't be true..being gay has to be a sin...God would never have people come to earth this way. Instead, You're going to have to be able to say....but Could it be true?. Im not going to claim anything.....except that we should suspend judgement, love others...let god be the judge of the individual. If my kid told me they were gay....i wouldn't tell them they were sinning. I would tell them I loved them....that would honestly be my response....that's what they would be looking for anyway.

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Re: LDS LIVING--Lesbian says, "heavenly father made me to be gay."

Postby TrueIntent » Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:26 am

"Sodom and Gomorrah have been used historically and today as metaphors for vice and homosexuality, although a close reading of the text and other Ancient Near Eastern sources suggest that this association may be incorrect.[8] " Im going to show you why?????....and then every scripture that has been used for Sodomite, and sodomy which is widely equated with homosexuality.....is then called into question. Sexuality is a sin in soddom, but it has more to do with the people and they way they worship, and less with sexual orientation. The sin of soddom and Gomorrah is THE SAME SIN of the book of mormon. I will teach you about Soddom and Gomorrah.

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Re: LDS LIVING--Lesbian says, "heavenly father made me to be gay."

Postby Fiannan » Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:46 am

TrueIntent wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:26 am
"Sodom and Gomorrah have been used historically and today as metaphors for vice and homosexuality, although a close reading of the text and other Ancient Near Eastern sources suggest that this association may be incorrect.[8] " Im going to show you why?????....and then every scripture that has been used for Sodomite, and sodomy which is widely equated with homosexuality.....is then called into question. Sexuality is a sin in soddom, but it has more to do with the people and they way they worship, and less with sexual orientation. The sin of soddom and Gomorrah is THE SAME SIN of the book of mormon. I will teach you about Soddom and Gomorrah.
You might want to inform the Muslim world of your insights as the Koran says:
And Lut, when he said to his people, "Do you commit an obscenity not perpetrated before you by anyone in all the worlds? You come with lust to men instead of women. You are indeed a depraved people." (Qur'an, 7:80-81)
"One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors."
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Re: LDS LIVING--Lesbian says, "heavenly father made me to be gay."

Postby Crackers » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:46 pm

"The scriptures teach our thoughts matter....the church says it doesnt matter if we don't act on it. This is a contradiction...."

Of course our thoughts matter, and at some point our thoughts will condemn us just as our actions will. However, I don't necessarily think this is what the church is talking about. I think what the church means is that "being" homosexual and having those feelings afflict you isn't the sin. Nurturing, rationalizing or acting on those feelings would be the sin (this is where your thoughts and/or your behavior will condemn you). So you can be a member in good standing as a homosexual, as long as you don't engage in the accompanying behavior.

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Re: LDS LIVING--Lesbian says, "heavenly father made me to be gay."

Postby Daniel2 » Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:39 pm

Fiannan wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:22 am
I was just waiting for people who support traditional morality to get blamed for all the problems:
As gay and lesbians integrate into society, we'll remove the barriers and prohibitions that led to the unhealthy behaviors that resulted in the horrifying statistical fall-out that we face from decades of repression and banning a segment of our population's ability to express love and form families.
Hi, Finnan,

I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean by "traditional morality," but it wasn't my intent cast blame in any of my comments.

Surely, rational minds can understand and accept that both internal and external pressures can contribute to things like alcoholism, promiscuity, struggles with self-worth and suicide, and unhealthy behaviors.

I think understanding the root causes of our thoughts, feelings, and behaviors is certainly valuable, and it's an entirely healthy approach to understand how both our internal and external forces shape our selves and identities, not with the intent of pointing figures, but with the aim of owning what needs to be owned and making whatever improvements to that can be improved.

As far as "traditional morality," traditions of the past (those sanctioned in scripture) have included stoning or putting people to death if they violated any number of rules (including murder, adultery, bestiality, rape of a betrothed virgin, intercourse between two men [but nothing about lesbian behavior], picking up sticks on the Sabbath, both the man and a woman betrothed to someone else if the two sleep together [unless the woman can prove she cried out and no one heard her, then only the man was stoned], a woman found not to be a virgin on her wedding night, worship of false gods, witchcraft, taking the Lord's name in vain or cursing his name, kidnapping, or disobeying or cursing a parent). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_and ... _the_Bible

The death penalty for most of those have not stood the test of time, so... I guess it certainly depends on which "traditional morality" you're advocating, before I could comment further.
Have compassion for everyone you meet, even if they don't want it. What seems conceit, bad manners, or cynicism is always a sign of things no ears have heard, no eyes have seen. You do not know what wars are going on down where the spirit meets the bone.

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Re: LDS LIVING--Lesbian says, "heavenly father made me to be gay."

Postby yjacket » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:11 pm

[/quote]
HEAVILY....your natural man is gonna say...this can't be true..being gay has to be a sin...God would never have people come to earth this way.
[/quote]

I don't think you quite know what the natural man is.

Being blunt, I do truly hope that instead of seeking after the world's wisdom (which is what you are doing by citing studies, research etc.) that you would study, ponder, and pray about His words; I really think you should read Alma 30. There are many, even many members of the Church who are just simply anti-Christ. The have the form of godliness but deny the power thereof. The deny the power of God to change their hearts, their thoughts, their very being into something different.

The philosophy you espouse is quite simply anti-Christ.

"53 But behold, the devil hath deceived me; for he appeared unto me in the form of an angel, and said unto me: Go and reclaim this people, for they have all gone astray after an unknown God."

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Re: LDS LIVING--Lesbian says, "heavenly father made me to be gay."

Postby captainfearnot » Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:30 pm

Thinker wrote: First of all, a non-sequitur is "a conclusion or statement that does not logically follow from the previous argument or statement."
Correct. My position is that the immorality of homosexuality is not rooted in (nor does it logically follow from) the health risks associated with anal sex. Therefore, to bring up the dangers of anal sex in a discussion about the immorality of homosexuality is a non-sequitur.
Thinker wrote:I never stated that if reality was not as it was, there would be no moral problem.
I know you didn't state this. That's why I asked what your position would be, given those circumstances. Then I stated my assumption that if the health facts were different, there would still be a moral problem with homosexuality, in your view. Is my assumption incorrect?
Thinker wrote:Why are you pulling out another straw-man - suggesting reality not exist - suggesting that homosexual health risks that are KNOWN -are not real???
It's never a straw-man to ask someone what they believe. I'm not imposing a position on you that you do not hold. I'm asking what position you would take if the facts were different, in order to demonstrate whether your position rests on those facts.
What you have done is attempted other logical fallacies like mind-projection (you are assuming my opinion), red-herring (you're distracting by suggesting that "IF" reality was not as it is - then I'd be wrong), appeal to authority (assuming the church are specialists in human development, psychology and sexuality when they are not) and straw-man (assuming my opinion to be what is convenient for YOU to easily refute).
You have stated elsewhere that you believe homosexuality is immoral even when anal sex is not involved. Lesbians who have never practiced anal sex are still living an immoral lifestyle, for instance. This leads me to assume that your belief that homosexuality is immoral is independent of your belief that anal sex is harmful and immoral. But if I'm wrong please correct my assumption. That's why I asked about your position.

A hundred years ago a lot of people based their belief that fornication was immoral on the natural risks involved, in particular unwanted pregnancy and disease. Now that those risks have largely been mitigated in the developed world, many people now conclude that pre-marital sex is no longer immoral—or not as immoral as it once was. Mormons, however, continue to believe that it is as immoral as ever. That's because the LDS belief that fornication is immoral is not and never has been based on the natural risks involved.

My position is that it's the same with homosexuality. Even if the natural risks were to be mitigated, as they have been with unmarried sex generally in the last century, I believe Mormons would still consider homosexuality to be immoral. Do you agree?
Just because some people with homosexual preferences do not engage in anal sex, does NOT mean that anal sex risks do not apply to the many who DO engage in it.
Obviously. And, of course, I never argued otherwise. I fully concede that anal sex carries inherent health risks. My position is that this "known fact" is not relevant to homosexuality's moral status as a whoredom and an abomination, at least according to the LDS church. In other words, it is a non-sequitur.

Given your passion about the health risks involved with anal sex, I wonder if your crusade against it extends to straight couples? Given the increased prevalence of anal sex among straight couples (as indicated in surveys) should we be doing more to address this growing health scourge among straights?

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Re: LDS LIVING--Lesbian says, "heavenly father made me to be gay."

Postby TrueIntent » Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:05 am

Crackers wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:46 pm
"The scriptures teach our thoughts matter....the church says it doesnt matter if we don't act on it. This is a contradiction...."

Of course our thoughts matter, and at some point our thoughts will condemn us just as our actions will. However, I don't necessarily think this is what the church is talking about. I think what the church means is that "being" homosexual and having those feelings afflict you isn't the sin. Nurturing, rationalizing or acting on those feelings would be the sin (this is where your thoughts and/or your behavior will condemn you). So you can be a member in good standing as a homosexual, as long as you don't engage in the accompanying behavior.
Well jesus says its not what goes into a man that defileth him, its what cometh out. and as a man thinketh so is he....and Thou shalt not lust. Internal is the sin under Christ teachings. Under law of moses...its definitely more outward...but the law always points to Christ.

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Re: LDS LIVING--Lesbian says, "heavenly father made me to be gay."

Postby TrueIntent » Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:20 am

yjacket wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:11 pm
HEAVILY....your natural man is gonna say...this can't be true..being gay has to be a sin...God would never have people come to earth this way.
I don't think you quite know what the natural man is.

Being blunt, I do truly hope that instead of seeking after the world's wisdom (which is what you are doing by citing studies, research etc.) that you would study, ponder, and pray about His words; I really think you should read Alma 30. There are many, even many members of the Church who are just simply anti-Christ. The have the form of godliness but deny the power thereof. The deny the power of God to change their hearts, their thoughts, their very being into something different.

The philosophy you espouse is quite simply anti-Christ.

"53 But behold, the devil hath deceived me; for he appeared unto me in the form of an angel, and said unto me: Go and reclaim this people, for they have all gone astray after an unknown God."
[/quote]
[/quote]




I don't think you undrestand what study ponder and pray means. Joseph Smith, under the "school of prophets" hired hebrew instructors to educate the brethren so that they could correctly understand the scriptures. Obtaining knowledge does not mean doing NO leg-work...and it does not mean that we don't study historians, or scholars work (the church does this...Im assuming you think they don't seek after the worlds wisdom but somehow I do?")...

THE DIFFERENCE IS, that we don't let them interpret the scriptures for us AFTER gaining a correct interpretation of them--we let the spirit lead us...it must fit within the context of scripture. The church has let several historians interpret the history AND THEN interpret the scriptures based on this history--THE spirit should always direct someone ....that is where we search ponder and pray...we don't dismiss the jews (as it says in the book of mormon)...they are the ones who kept the records..Im NOT GOING TO DISMISS HEBREW TRANSLATION---neither would jospeh smith...the bible is only correct AS FAR AS IT IS TRANSLATED CORRECTLY

...When I refer to scholars...im referring to people who have spent their whole lives studying artifacts and languages and translation..AND IM REFERREING TO THE JEWS..who kept the records in the first place...im just referring to Hebrew.

....WE as those who claim to possess the spirit should use the spirit to make sense of the information. WE should be, JUST AS THEY DID IN THE SCHOOL OF PROPHETS, studying the works of those hebrew scholars and historians...HOWEVER....joseph then used revelation to interpret the information. GOD doesnt do the studying for us....we have to...joseph did, sydney did, and he expected the brethren too. DO your own leg-work.

Thats a load of crap, btw, about me denying the power of Godliness...."The deny the power of God to change their hearts, their thoughts, their very being into something different." This is a crap statement if you are applying it to me....that's my whole point....why are these people not receiving a change of being if it's a sin. Have you not read my other posts?????? God changes desires....I totally believe that. It's because of my own experience with the atonement that our teachings on sexuality in the church dont mesh. Christ changes you! AND i do believe these people are sincere and offer broken heart and contrite spirit. If you think a devil has deceived me...that's on you....the ones who crucified christ claimed he was blasmephous. Doesnt bug me that you think that. Im comfortable believing what I do because...Ive done the legwork. Ive been on both sides of the debate spiritually and doctrinally--Ive been where you've been, and so I can see what you can't. I can't deny what i know now.

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Re: LDS LIVING--Lesbian says, "heavenly father made me to be gay."

Postby yjacket » Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:43 pm

[/quote]
...WE as those who claim to possess the spirit should use the spirit to make sense of the information.
[/quote]
And you are listening to the wrong spirit.

[/quote]
Thats a load of crap, btw, about me denying the power of Godliness...."The deny the power of God to change their hearts, their thoughts, their very being into something different." This is a crap statement if you are applying it to me....that's my whole point....why are these people not receiving a change of being if it's a sin. Have you not read my other posts?????? God changes desires....I totally believe that.
[/quote]

No you don't believe that God can change desires. Yes you are denying the power of Godliness. "The wicked take the truth to be hard". You are extremely defensive; if you were a true following of Christ my words would have no effect on you b/c you would know in your heart regardless of what I say that you are following Christ. You aren't and therefore you are being extremely antagonist about it.

[/quote]
Christ changes you! AND i do believe these people are sincere and offer broken heart and contrite spirit.
[/quote]
This things don't work together. You claim that it is good and right that homosexuality is approved of God simply b/c you believe based on what you have seen that these individuals offer a broken heart and contrite spirit. Your logically fallacy is that if you observe a lot of people who you believe offer a contrite spirit but yet their heart/feelings/thoughts don't change then it must mean that God approves of their actions.

So therefore you don't believe Christ changes you, you believe if I pray for Christ to change me and he doesn't then it must mean that the action is approved God. That's not the gospel, that's anti-Christ.


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