How to turn someone against religion.

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Fiannan
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How to turn someone against religion.

Post by Fiannan »

I was speaking to a man from the Middle East recently. He was telling me some of his experiences that turned him into an atheist and thus rejecting Islam. One was that he loves dogs. More conservative Muslims hate dogs. They are unclean. And while many people in the Middle East in more conservative nations get dogs they are often harassed by religious fanatics and often dogs are taken away and killed by the authorities. His dad bent the rules and owned a business. He bought a dog and listed it as a guard dog, which is tolerated. His dad would take him to the business and let him play with his pet.

Maybe when we get too fanatical we sew the seeds for antagonism against the institution we see as the source of that fanaticism.

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David13
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Re: How to turn someone against religion.

Post by David13 »

Do you have any specifics in mind in posting this? I mean, other than dogs.
Most of us fanatics are not against dogs.
dc

Fiannan
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Re: How to turn someone against religion.

Post by Fiannan »

David13 wrote: September 21st, 2017, 11:00 am Do you have any specifics in mind in posting this? I mean, other than dogs.
Most of us fanatics are not against dogs.
dc
I have seen this in all religions. Brigham Young even warned that if you control a kid too much then once they reach 18 they would go crazy with the freedom to do all the things you banned them from doing previously.

Gage
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Re: How to turn someone against religion.

Post by Gage »

I have seen this in all religions. Brigham Young even warned that if you control a kid too much then once they reach 18 they would go crazy with the freedom to do all the things you banned them from doing previously.
[/quote]


Many of the kids I grew up with in the Church with strict parents- the whole forced to go to church, before dark curfews, no freedom at all growing up- many of these same kids as adults are no longer active and have went total opposite of their upbringing. Is kinda sad, I suppose the parents thought they were doing the right thing, and maybe they were I dont know, but as kids growing up they couldn't make any of their own decisions or choices, no kind of freedom, and when they left home they went wild.

Michelle
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Re: How to turn someone against religion.

Post by Michelle »

Gage wrote: September 21st, 2017, 1:07 pm I have seen this in all religions. Brigham Young even warned that if you control a kid too much then once they reach 18 they would go crazy with the freedom to do all the things you banned them from doing previously.
Many of the kids I grew up with in the Church with strict parents- the whole forced to go to church, before dark curfews, no freedom at all growing up- many of these same kids as adults are no longer active and have went total opposite of their upbringing. Is kinda sad, I suppose the parents thought they were doing the right thing, and maybe they were I dont know, but as kids growing up they couldn't make any of their own decisions or choices, no kind of freedom, and when they left home they went wild.
Please share the reference to your Brigham Young quote.

I am so tired of this myth about good parents turning kids bad.

We all come to earth at different levels of progression and we all have agency. I believe the Lord often mixes the more and less righteous in the same family on purpose. Think of Lehi's family. Laman and Lemuel were kind of rotten, but they were needed. There kids were to be a scourge to Nephi's if they forgot the Lord.

We have all probably seen many versions of this: the kid in the good family that rebels; the kid from the bad family that excels.

I will say this, if you don't teach them right from wrong, you can't hope for better than them going wrong. If you teach them right from wrong, they will still have their agency, but a better shot at figuring things out.

Most people I know, who's families grew up in the church, are actually split pretty even on active and non active adults. I've seen a few stellar examples and a few sad stories, but what do you expect when we live in Bablyon but are shooting for Zion?

Not trying to be disrespectful, but remember even a third part of heaven chose Satan's plan. Did God do something wrong, or is this just a part of agency?

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passionflower
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Re: How to turn someone against religion.

Post by passionflower »

Gage wrote: September 21st, 2017, 1:07 pm I have seen this in all religions. Brigham Young even warned that if you control a kid too much then once they reach 18 they would go crazy with the freedom to do all the things you banned them from doing previously.

Many of the kids I grew up with in the Church with strict parents- the whole forced to go to church, before dark curfews, no freedom at all growing up- many of these same kids as adults are no longer active and have went total opposite of their upbringing. Is kinda sad, I suppose the parents thought they were doing the right thing, and maybe they were I dont know, but as kids growing up they couldn't make any of their own decisions or choices, no kind of freedom, and when they left home they went wild.
[/quote]

Sounds like some people think over protecting their children teaches them something. Too many times it just creates an immature kid who turns into an immature adult.

Perhaps what BY was referring to was the control taught by the hellfire and damnation preachers of his day who took "spare the rod and spoil the child" to the extreme. They didn't believe in honing, channeling and bridling our passions, but obliterating them all together to save a child from sin. Many times, in the name of religious salvation, this kind of teaching became absolutely abusive. The church at the time of BY was a church of converts from Protestant religions.

I was a very strict parent. VERY. But my kids are happy well adjusted adults who are all active in the church, married in the temple, RM's, college educated, have good personal habits, and hold down important church callings.

brianj
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Re: How to turn someone against religion.

Post by brianj »

Michelle wrote: September 21st, 2017, 4:40 pm I am so tired of this myth about good parents turning kids bad.

We all come to earth at different levels of progression and we all have agency. I believe the Lord often mixes the more and less righteous in the same family on purpose. Think of Lehi's family. Laman and Lemuel were kind of rotten, but they were needed. There kids were to be a scourge to Nephi's if they forgot the Lord.

We have all probably seen many versions of this: the kid in the good family that rebels; the kid from the bad family that excels.

I will say this, if you don't teach them right from wrong, you can't hope for better than them going wrong. If you teach them right from wrong, they will still have their agency, but a better shot at figuring things out.

Most people I know, who's families grew up in the church, are actually split pretty even on active and non active adults. I've seen a few stellar examples and a few sad stories, but what do you expect when we live in Bablyon but are shooting for Zion?

Not trying to be disrespectful, but remember even a third part of heaven chose Satan's plan. Did God do something wrong, or is this just a part of agency?
I'm going to take issue with the claim this is a myth. I have known many people who were overbearing towards their children, and those children left the church. I also know people who were raised by overbearing parents who left the church as soon as they could.

Yes, there are plenty of people who leave the church in spite of very good parents who weren't in the least bit overbearing or contentious and who didn't compel their children to be active. But I have seen enough examples of parents who pushed too hard to say it isn't a myth.

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David13
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Re: How to turn someone against religion.

Post by David13 »

passionflower wrote: September 21st, 2017, 4:51 pm
Gage wrote: September 21st, 2017, 1:07 pm I have seen this in all religions. Brigham Young even warned that if you control a kid too much then once they reach 18 they would go crazy with the freedom to do all the things you banned them from doing previously.

Many of the kids I grew up with in the Church with strict parents- the whole forced to go to church, before dark curfews, no freedom at all growing up- many of these same kids as adults are no longer active and have went total opposite of their upbringing. Is kinda sad, I suppose the parents thought they were doing the right thing, and maybe they were I dont know, but as kids growing up they couldn't make any of their own decisions or choices, no kind of freedom, and when they left home they went wild.
Sounds like some people think over protecting their children teaches them something. Too many times it just creates an immature kid who turns into an immature adult.

Perhaps what BY was referring to was the control taught by the hellfire and damnation preachers of his day who took "spare the rod and spoil the child" to the extreme. They didn't believe in honing, channeling and bridling our passions, but obliterating them all together to save a child from sin. Many times, in the name of religious salvation, this kind of teaching became absolutely abusive. The church at the time of BY was a church of converts from Protestant religions.

I was a very strict parent. VERY. But my kids are happy well adjusted adults who are all active in the church, married in the temple, RM's, college educated, have good personal habits, and hold down important church callings.
[/quote]


I am going to say your experience is the rule, not the exception. I do believe there are exceptions, but they are rarer than your results.
dc

Crackers
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Re: How to turn someone against religion.

Post by Crackers »

I think it is essential that kids are taught how to live according to the gospel standards; how to live happily. Parents can easily discern if a child needs a little more freedom to make choices that may not always be the best in the short term.

diligently seeking
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Re: How to turn someone against religion.

Post by diligently seeking »

Michelle wrote: September 21st, 2017, 4:40 pm
Gage wrote: September 21st, 2017, 1:07 pm I have seen this in all religions. Brigham Young even warned that if you control a kid too much then once they reach 18 they would go crazy with the freedom to do all the things you banned them from doing previously.
Many of the kids I grew up with in the Church with strict parents- the whole forced to go to church, before dark curfews, no freedom at all growing up- many of these same kids as adults are no longer active and have went total opposite of their upbringing. Is kinda sad, I suppose the parents thought they were doing the right thing, and maybe they were I dont know, but as kids growing up they couldn't make any of their own decisions or choices, no kind of freedom, and when they left home they went wild.
Please share the reference to your Brigham Young quote.

I am so tired of this myth about good parents turning kids bad.

We all come to earth at different levels of progression and we all have agency. I believe the Lord often mixes the more and less righteous in the same family on purpose. Think of Lehi's family. Laman and Lemuel were kind of rotten, but they were needed. There kids were to be a scourge to Nephi's if they forgot the Lord.

We have all probably seen many versions of this: the kid in the good family that rebels; the kid from the bad family that excels.

I will say this, if you don't teach them right from wrong, you can't hope for better than them going wrong. If you teach them right from wrong, they will still have their agency, but a better shot at figuring things out.

Most people I know, who's families grew up in the church, are actually split pretty even on active and non active adults. I've seen a few stellar examples and a few sad stories, but what do you expect when we live in Bablyon but are shooting for Zion?

Not trying to be disrespectful, but remember even a third part of heaven chose Satan's plan. Did God do something wrong, or is this just a part of agency?

Is a "good parent" a hovering / controling parent?

My mother was a righteous woman who taught me correct principles and let me govern myself--- for the most part.

I made poor choices in high school. I CAUSED the spirit / Heaven's positive opportunities angels etc to flee-- most definitely. My mother continued to teach and most importantly continued to live in a way that emanated powerful light and love. She was not overly / unduly controlling and respected my agency. I witnessed miracles in her life again and again and again. Her joy and peace from her relationship with Jesus was quite tangible. I'll never forget as a brand new 16 year old driver after having gone with my mother as she drove to Salt Lake to visit her mother-- she upon the conclusion of our visit told me that I would have the opportunity to drive home to Sandy. This was a frightful invitation. You see, I failed the written driving test 2 times. If you failed it 3 times you had to take Driver's Ed course over again. I barely opened my text book to study. Luckily for me, so I thought, my teacher was crooked. He said if it came down to being able to pass the test when needed / the third time-- if you put a six pack of pepsi on his desk everything would work to your benefit. Relying on the strength of that promise I chose not to study like I should and bought the six pack and passed the test. When my mother told me I'd be driving home from busy congested Salt Lake City--- I was pretty scared. Not too far into driving-- I came upon a busy intersection where I need to turn left. The light turned green which meant you are free to turn left, right? That's what me and my mightily undernourished driving knowledge skills chose to do. As our teeny tiny "Subaru Justy" car was turning left I realized to my horror and to the very frightened pleading cry to the Lord from my mother that we were doomed. It was beyond obvious in that split-second realization of horror that we were going to suffer quite the collision because of my poor choice. Mercifully, because my mother was tight with heaven -- protective intervention took over. My mother shouted out "Jesus! save us!" what happened next was straight out of the movies. Everything around us stood still except our little car which whipped around that turn miraculously avoiding a devastating passenger side collision. I drove about 40 feet down the road pulled over to the right side of the road stopping the car and was absolutely shooken to my core. I knew that something crazy strange just barely happened, and I couldn't put my finger on it. my mom's incredibly calm and loving demeanor let me know that she could put her finger on it. I fully expected her to lambaste me for such a foolish decision. She calmly and lovingly said "honey do you want me to drive the rest of the way home." And of course I let her.

When it came time for me to want to grow up (18ish) and change my ways-- it was so apparent and beyond obvious that the counterfeits of babylon I chose to be too familiar with pailed in comparison to the real stuff that she had in her life. The way she raised me without unrighteous dominion without suppressive control and allowing me to govern my life-- helped me to realize. / Witness and see without question that what she had was light and truth and was the absolute real deal--- the desired for stuff... My buddies around me in my ward -- most definitely had helicopter parents. If it wasn't for the example of my mothers influence in the ward-- I would have been alienated. When it came time to serve missions 3 of them to the surprise of their parents, chose not to go, and I'm sure much more to their surprise the wildest one of them, me, chose to go... If not for my mother who was converted to her core in Jesus and was quite the splendid example of him-- I too would have chosen wandering paths from the Iron Rod. This has to be no doubt the 10th :twisted: time I have posted my conversion story which has so much to do with my mother. For those who have not read it-- here is a little more open window to the positive influence of what a righteous parent looks like as well of the amazing Christ influencing power of the Book of Mormon:


My parents divorced when I was 10-- resulting with my Father choosing to be absent from our lives. Regrettably, I chose to use my agency poorly in my teen years. Tragically, mom was diagnosed with a terminal cancer when I was 14. She was told that with chemotherapy and radiation she could possibly live 8 months. She explained to the doctor that she had faith she would live long enough to see her last children off. Very shortly after this, she was given a priesthood blessing that told her as much. Miraculously, her bone cancer multiple myeloma, went into remission. My sweet angel mother was about as perfect as mom (Child of God) could be. She was a fervent/faithfull follower of Jesus in word and deed. There was no duplicity in her; truly, this elect woman was without guile and was wonderfully filled with and emanated the pure love of Christ. Miracles too, were ubiquitous/everywhere for this saintly woman.

So many over cast times in my life I would be healed mentally, emotionally, and lifted spiritually just being in her righteous presence. I will never forget a time in my life when I was 16 watching "Geraldo" (a tv talk show) downstairs in my room. The theme of the show that day was: people who were abducted by aliens and returned. Sounds so comical now, but, at that time of my life-- it created a faith crisis. Geraldo's guests were most convincing. As the show progressed, I became increasingly convinced these folks --had-- been abducted. Panic filled my heart. The thoughts that raced through my mind were "how could the church be true-- why would God allow these things to take place--Alien abductions were not supposed to be apart of the Plan of Salvation"!?

I knew I had to speak to the resident- spiritual authority in my home. Hollering to see if my mom was upstairs-- She replied that she was. I wanted at some point in my life to embrace the faith that my mother so beautifully reflected. I knew that my lifestyle was practically void of the happiness and serenity she had in abundance. I was feeling very forlorn as I walked up those stairs. I most assuredly hoped, but was not so convinced, that my mother could pour healing oil on my troubled waters. When she saw me, she asked sweetly what she could do for me. I observed that she was sitting in her favorite dimpled leather chair reading her oh-so-loved-scriptures. Upon being in my mother's presence I was immediately filled with incredible peace and joy. All feelings of emotional pain, anxiety, and confusion were completely taken from me. So thorough was this cleansing-- that I didn't even ask my mother a single question. Astonished by this beautiful and immediate result-- I simply told her "oh nothing" turned around and went back downstairs.

Though I had this profound experience, numbskull me, Still chose to live a life That was unbecoming of a Latter day Saint. The 19th year in my life was approaching fast. I was settling in on the idea that a mission was going to be a part of my future. This was a strong wish and desire of my mothers. My mission call came. The day came for me to leave to the MTC. My angel mother passed that morning. My twin sister had already left the home. Departing to the MTC that morning, I was the last of her 9 children to leave. The power of this righteous woman's faith, and the power / efficacy of the priesthood blessing she received-- resulted in her righteous desire and wish being fulfilled --to the day--

At first, the Lord's mission I was called to serve to was a difficult struggle. President Ezra T Benson talked about having a vision seeing an army of missionaries that could "match the message," this--I was not. Growing spiritually during my formative/ early years was largely wasted. The lead surgeon in the county that we labored in -- my first area-- Invited us over to teach a friend. Introducing my companion and I-- he explained in glowing details what a great missionary my trainer was. He explained with an unenthused tone that "Elder Beesley meant well as a missionary but was not quite up to speed."

I was devastated. No doubt he was right. As we entered our apartment that night, I asked to be alone in the bedroom. Pouring my heart and soul out to Father in Heaven-- I cried and cried asking forgiveness for not being prepared and pleading for help.That first area I nearly read the Book of Mormon 3 times. A miracle occurred. Nothing short of the Red Sea parting. Not only did the gospel make crystal clear sense, but my intellect (by my standards) soared! I went from an unorganized somewhat unkempt fella-- all the sudden I felt to be organized and precise in my actions. So much fog lifted-- my mind was expanded and made much more clear. My previous swollen twisted tongue shrunk to size and was "loosed" I truly was going through a glorious- spiritual rebirth. The last fast and testimony meeting before I was transferred to a new area this lead-surgeon member stood to bear his testimony. He stated that amongst other things helping him to know that the church is true-- he testified that another feather in his cap of testimony was seeing a miracle with the transformation of Elder Beesley. He rightly knew that I was a lowly way behind the curve missionary when I first entered the mission field. He also knew that nothing short Of God's tender mercy and miraculous help could have done for me what had occurred and was occurring.

I know unquestionably, nothing unlocked this door for me so profoundly as did the study of the Book of Mormon. Father in Heaven and my Savior Jesus Christ became so wonderfully real and close to me. I can honestly say that I read a total of 6 books in 19 years of living. The majority of those in the fourth grade. I gave little to no energy in my studies from junior high to high school. Suddenly, to study the Book of Mormon, a book littered with thee thou and thines etc --for it! to come alive! Wonder of wonders...

Studying the gospel, particuarly reading the Book of Mormon, I became infused/ filled with the Spirit of God. I truly became a "New Creature in Christ" (2Corinthians 5:17) born of god, having received a mighty change of heart! I do not know how many times I read The Book of Mormon on the Lord's mission. I do know that it was approaching somewhere around 15 times. I read certain books with in the Book of Mormon a hundred times and more. I love the book of Alma. :) Joy and anticipation came arising in the morning to read the Book of Mormon. I could not wait to come home for lunch to read the Book of Mormon. I truly hungered and thirsted for the glorious affects that came into my life reading the great "Stick of Joseph" (Ezekiel37:19)

When you are near SPIRITUALY--blind, lame, deaf, and dumb and you discover sooner than later your relationship with deity/God and Jesus becoming so real and sacred for you--and you are suddenly given beautiful gifts and your known talents heightened--beautiful spiritual vistas are opened up to you--the voice of the Lord (via the Holy Ghost that blessed "Comforter" (John 14:26,27) is heard and obeyed--when great clarity of thought and speech increase and all of this from these fruits given through sincere study and application and prayer from reading a book! Incredible! What amazing love and appreciation fills your whole being...I always knew my mother "knew it" she truly was a mother "who knew" (Alma 56:47,48) I testify that to become a person "who knows" the expedited path is the path that leads you to the unending feast, even the great spiritual banquet --which is-- the BOOK of MORMON--book of all BOOKS!

Gage
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Re: How to turn someone against religion.

Post by Gage »

It was a trust issue, my friends with strict parents just wanted to be trusted by their parents that they could make good choices and decisions, and they would have. I think it hurt their self esteem and affected them later in their young adult years. Nothing wrong with being an involved parent, but at some point you have to start trusting your teenage children to make good decisions on their own.

Michelle
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Re: How to turn someone against religion.

Post by Michelle »

I grew up with my church friend's parents saying: "If my kids are going to try alcohol, I want them to do it in front of me so they are safe." "If they are going to have sex, I want to make sure they have the proper protection." Sure, they told their kids they didn't want them to do those things. Taught them that they were contrary to the gospel. Then said they were letting the kids use agency. They were so worried about being overbearing that they forgot to be parents. Zero. Zero. Zero. of my LDS friends from those year are active. All of them drink. All of them had sex before marriage. Some had kids out of wedlock. One got pregnant from an older married guy and later married him.

I had a lot of not LDS friends at school (because there weren't any. lol) but many of them were evangelicals and other protestant faiths. I had Amish friends too. I can't think of any who have left the faith of their parents or rebelled in the ways mentioned above. (Not that their weren't many kids at our school who did, and we had our fair share of deaths and pregnancies during my 4 years of high school.)

Perhaps we all had the experiences we needed. But mine experience is one of helping them choose the right turns out better than walking them down the path of sin.

I would still say my parenting matches "teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves" I simply choose not to facilitate or encourage bad behavior either.

Remember Eli and his sons from the Old Testament?

Fiannan
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Re: How to turn someone against religion.

Post by Fiannan »

One can note that before the Iranian Islamic Revolution of 1979 the attendance at mosque was quite high but once the government started dictating what women could and could not wear, began a war on dog ownership, and warned people who did not attend Islamic services the actual attendance crashed. And most Iranians resent being told what to do, just as most people do.

I noticed at when our Church began the whole modesty push, the anti-tattoo push, the whole white shirt thing that young people started questioning whetehr they should even attend our services. Add to that the over-zealose attacks on porn use (seems the Church is doing some positive revising of the whole addiction myth) and, well, you see what is happening. One can address issues as they were in the past and most people will make the right decisions. Make a big deal of such issues and people begin to rebel.

gardener4life
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Re: How to turn someone against religion.

Post by gardener4life »

Gage wrote: September 21st, 2017, 1:07 pm I have seen this in all religions. Brigham Young even warned that if you control a kid too much then once they reach 18 they would go crazy with the freedom to do all the things you banned them from doing previously.

Many of the kids I grew up with in the Church with strict parents- the whole forced to go to church, before dark curfews, no freedom at all growing up- many of these same kids as adults are no longer active and have went total opposite of their upbringing. Is kinda sad, I suppose the parents thought they were doing the right thing, and maybe they were I dont know, but as kids growing up they couldn't make any of their own decisions or choices, no kind of freedom, and when they left home they went wild.
[/quote]

I think its not right to say this as a generalization for all church members. I'd be careful about this. I think you meant well and you are a nice person. I don't wish to offend you but I have to speak against this concept.

And a lot of people will will join you on this idea and will speak out against the law and against the rule of law jumping on the bandwagon. A lot of the cop haters when you actually look up their names too for example you will see rap sheets with violent crime history and possession of weapons known and then someone claims they are a victim and father of 4 or 6 or whatever...and some won't even be fathers and others will have never paid child support their entire life. You could even say that the scriptures talking about the rule of law disappearing, and people's hearts failing them is people speaking out against religion. It's also including this idea of blaming church and your parents for your bad behavior...that it's some other persons fault I rebelled, etc. I think posts like this can do a lot of harm because you are creating this view that church members are bad. This is a classic satan tactics to teach evil people to claim that those they victimize are bad, while those that committed crimes were victims.

strict parents never caused that. It's their true character. Lack of obedience and rebelling...a lot of those people were like that in the pre-existence. But they will still blame others.

I have a family member who fits into this. It never fails that if I turn my back on him, he's always conning our parents too. Money, stealing food, parasitic lifestyle of living off others, borrowing money and never paying it back. Sneaking several cars onto mom's car insurance without her agreeing to it first because she's older and isn't always aware then never paying her a dime, blaming others, living for entertainment while trying to get others to support your lifestyle, sneaking whores and drug people into our parent's basement at late hours in the early AM, and living hard. Many of the people above fit into this as you described as 'victims'.

Nobody was ever a victim who had parents who loved them enough to keep them out of trouble.

This person described above grew up from birth swimming up stream. If you tell him don't cross the street there, it's dangerous...he will do it just because you said that. And even hurting himself non-stop as he's done this non-stop yet expect others to pay for his life because he's profitable and people fall for it. Nobody abused him. Nobody was too strict with him. He was born from birth doing this kind of behavior. He didn't start when he was 16 because of parents...he was like that from birth. When I grew up with this sibling at 3 years old he already had all the classic signs of rebellion. At 3 he would stop playing with his toy to steal mine, over and over. And then throw fits until our parents would give in. I could go on and on showing you how its very obvious he would have rebelled against the church, NO MATTER or WHO his parents would have been or what policy they would have used. Some people just do. But they will blame their parents and every other person on the planet all the way to hell for free stuff.

People who study psychologists of prisons have written books on this kind of stuff like blaming your parents for being too strict and how everything is their fault. It's classic delinquent textbook material to blame church people and parents especially. If they are blaming their parents for stuff, you can be sure they haven't learned yet that their own choices determine their actions. You can research some of this. I think it actually helps for people to understand it.

The concept is...I do wrong. I get caught. I refuse to admit its my fault or the cause of my actions. I try to pass the buck to others so I don't have to pay the consequences. You can compare the 12 step program and steps of repentance against this behavior too in order to see why each step is valuable.

And if you talk to people from previous generations, they will tell you how lenient we are as a society and how we practically live in anarchy from having less discipline than the previous generation, and that generation was already way less than the one before. If anything we've got no standards, and no consistency in any kind of rules except seeking out wealth. We have rules, but as a society almost nobody is keeping them or enforcing them. And if you tried to do so, someone would accuse you of abuse. No other generation in all of history was so anti-rules, and no discipline!

Brigham Young gets quoted by a lot of people but sometimes it doesn't fit the situation.

Crackers
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Re: How to turn someone against religion.

Post by Crackers »

Fiannan wrote: September 21st, 2017, 11:51 pm One can note that before the Iranian Islamic Revolution of 1979 the attendance at mosque was quite high but once the government started dictating what women could and could not wear, began a war on dog ownership, and warned people who did not attend Islamic services the actual attendance crashed. And most Iranians resent being told what to do, just as most people do.

I noticed at when our Church began the whole modesty push, the anti-tattoo push, the whole white shirt thing that young people started questioning whetehr they should even attend our services. Add to that the over-zealose attacks on porn use (seems the Church is doing some positive revising of the whole addiction myth) and, well, you see what is happening. One can address issues as they were in the past and most people will make the right decisions. Make a big deal of such issues and people begin to rebel.
I'm not sure the church is losing people because it suggests modest dress and a less generous view of pornography viewing than you would like to see. And if it is, what would that matter? Should standards be relative to what brings in good attendance?

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David13
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Re: How to turn someone against religion.

Post by David13 »

There, it has been said.
If you make wrong choices in life, you hold the responsibility, the blame, not your parents.
dc

Fiannan
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Posts: 12983

Re: How to turn someone against religion.

Post by Fiannan »

I'm not sure the church is losing people because it suggests modest dress and a less generous view of pornography viewing than you would like to see. And if it is, what would that matter? Should standards be relative to what brings in good attendance?
Oh come on, there is a difference between telling members that viewing porn is wrong (as I find it to be) and going all "Reefer Madness" in regards to the issue. I have seriously heard LDS people say that looking at porn is as addictive as heroin and any amount is addiction. Thankfully the Church is now saying that this is incorrect and that most people who look at porn are not addicted. As for modesty it may depend on when a person was raised in the Church. In the 1950s is was perfectly fine at BYU to wear gowns that exposed the shoulders and much of the back. In the 1970s one can remember most youth wearing those really short running shorts (both males and females) to youth activities. Then something happened around the turn of the century and suddenly little girls in sun dresses were seen as immodest and we saw sleaves added to classic art paintings depicting angels. That is going overboard, don't you think?

Crackers
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Re: How to turn someone against religion.

Post by Crackers »

Fiannan wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 8:36 am
I'm not sure the church is losing people because it suggests modest dress and a less generous view of pornography viewing than you would like to see. And if it is, what would that matter? Should standards be relative to what brings in good attendance?
Oh come on, there is a difference between telling members that viewing porn is wrong (as I find it to be) and going all "Reefer Madness" in regards to the issue. I have seriously heard LDS people say that looking at porn is as addictive as heroin and any amount is addiction. Thankfully the Church is now saying that this is incorrect and that most people who look at porn are not addicted. As for modesty it may depend on when a person was raised in the Church. In the 1950s is was perfectly fine at BYU to wear gowns that exposed the shoulders and much of the back. In the 1970s one can remember most youth wearing those really short running shorts (both males and females) to youth activities. Then something happened around the turn of the century and suddenly little girls in sun dresses were seen as immodest and we saw sleaves added to classic art paintings depicting angels. That is going overboard, don't you think?

The BYU dress code, classical art and anecdotal outrage over children’s clothing don’t define the church’s standards. If you go to what the church actually teaches, I think it presents good concepts.

For example, not in the current For The Strength of Youth, but in the previous one (I believe), it mentioned that young ladies should wear one pair of modest earrings (if they desire). What do you think modest means when discussing earrings? Do you think most people either ignored this or didn’t take the time to understand its intent? If we use that standard to understand that we shouldn’t dress so as to draw attention to our physical self, then we can use that same understanding with regard to related modesty issues, including the clothes we wear. I don’t think asking people to cover up and dress modestly goes overboard. Modesty is an essential part of understanding one’s eternal identity.

Of note, my guess as the why the word “modest” has been taken out of the current pamphlet with regard to earrings is because we have a worldwide church with many cultures and societal norms, some of which might include large earrings as a cultural standard.

I am sorry that you find the church’s standards so offensive. If you prefer a watered-down version of these things, you can find them anywhere else. The church and parents need to continue to teach youth correct principles and standards with the expectation of adherence. In love, with accompanying support and continued teaching, and with increasing agency with age and learning. This is the best course for a good outcome.


I’m not sure what the question of whether pornography is addictive has to do with anything. Does the church teach that viewing pornography is okay as long as it doesn’t rise to the level of addiction? I honestly don’t know what that has to do with anything.

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passionflower
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Re: How to turn someone against religion.

Post by passionflower »

Fiannan wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 8:36 am
I'm not sure the church is losing people because it suggests modest dress and a less generous view of pornography viewing than you would like to see. And if it is, what would that matter? Should standards be relative to what brings in good attendance?
Oh come on, there is a difference between telling members that viewing porn is wrong (as I find it to be) and going all "Reefer Madness" in regards to the issue. I have seriously heard LDS people say that looking at porn is as addictive as heroin and any amount is addiction. Thankfully the Church is now saying that this is incorrect and that most people who look at porn are not addicted. As for modesty it may depend on when a person was raised in the Church. In the 1950s is was perfectly fine at BYU to wear gowns that exposed the shoulders and much of the back. In the 1970s one can remember most youth wearing those really short running shorts (both males and females) to youth activities. Then something happened around the turn of the century and suddenly little girls in sun dresses were seen as immodest and we saw sleaves added to classic art paintings depicting angels. That is going overboard, don't you think?
I agree with you that a very reactive type of extremism has found its way into religion. Having 23 children is just one example. But on the other hand, like the ever escalating thrill rides at the amusement park, Tattoos, body piercings, open sexuality, gender bending, violent games, immodest clothing and pornography also push the bounds of social norms to an extreme and do much more damage.

As a parent I would never have felt I was overbearing if I forbid these things to my children. To resent impositions on your personal choice and freedoms is human nature, but so is going to the bathroom in your pants. And once past the age of four, very few rebel against using the toilet as an infringement on their right to choose for themselves. Now why is that?

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Re: How to turn someone against religion.

Post by Fiannan »

I am sorry that you find the church’s standards so offensive. If you prefer a watered-down version of these things, you can find them anywhere else. The church and parents need to continue to teach youth correct principles and standards with the expectation of adherence. In love, with accompanying support and continued teaching, and with increasing agency with age and learning. This is the best course for a good outcome.
WHo said I was offended? Not some SJW. Strange you use the term "watered-down" as this afternoon I noticed on social media that BYU will now sell caffeinated drinks in the cafeteria. While we know that our leaders use caffeinated soda we appear to have a lot of people who are saying this is wrong. It isn't, but people have believed it.

Crackers
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Re: How to turn someone against religion.

Post by Crackers »

Fiannan wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 1:28 pm

WHo said I was offended? Not some SJW. Strange you use the term "watered-down" as this afternoon I noticed on social media that BYU will now sell caffeinated drinks in the cafeteria. While we know that our leaders use caffeinated soda we appear to have a lot of people who are saying this is wrong. It isn't, but people have believed it.
Umm, it IS "wrong" to put caffeinated soda into your body. Have you read the ingredient list for a Diet Coke? Do you think you are making a good choice when you drink that? Just saying.

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Re: How to turn someone against religion.

Post by Fiannan »

Crackers wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 1:35 pm
Fiannan wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 1:28 pm

WHo said I was offended? Not some SJW. Strange you use the term "watered-down" as this afternoon I noticed on social media that BYU will now sell caffeinated drinks in the cafeteria. While we know that our leaders use caffeinated soda we appear to have a lot of people who are saying this is wrong. It isn't, but people have believed it.
Umm, it IS "wrong" to put caffeinated soda into your body. Have you read the ingredient list for a Diet Coke? Do you think you are making a good choice when you drink that? Just saying.
Not the best thing for your body but not a sin.

Crackers
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Re: How to turn someone against religion.

Post by Crackers »

Fiannan wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 2:19 pm
Crackers wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 1:35 pm
Fiannan wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 1:28 pm

WHo said I was offended? Not some SJW. Strange you use the term "watered-down" as this afternoon I noticed on social media that BYU will now sell caffeinated drinks in the cafeteria. While we know that our leaders use caffeinated soda we appear to have a lot of people who are saying this is wrong. It isn't, but people have believed it.
Umm, it IS "wrong" to put caffeinated soda into your body. Have you read the ingredient list for a Diet Coke? Do you think you are making a good choice when you drink that? Just saying.
Not the best thing for your body but not a sin.
I guess I disagree. If you choose to pollute your body, which is a temple, that is a sin. A very, very minor one in the big picure, but could it keep you from God? No unclean thing can enter His presence.

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Lyster
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Re: How to turn someone against religion.

Post by Lyster »

Parents aside, people tend to choose how they will be. Corrections can be given, but people make up their own minds fairly early on.

My family is split down the middle of activity, and even then in understanding of the gospel. The parable of the prodigal son comes to mind. Same teachings of the parents, different choices. Lehi taught well his sons, and some rebelled and some lived well.

The Amish seem to do quite well with raising obedient children with all their strictness. And yes, there are the exceptions that seek the world.

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mcusick
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Re: How to turn someone against religion.

Post by mcusick »

Crackers wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 6:35 pm
Fiannan wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 2:19 pm
Crackers wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 1:35 pm
Fiannan wrote: September 22nd, 2017, 1:28 pm

WHo said I was offended? Not some SJW. Strange you use the term "watered-down" as this afternoon I noticed on social media that BYU will now sell caffeinated drinks in the cafeteria. While we know that our leaders use caffeinated soda we appear to have a lot of people who are saying this is wrong. It isn't, but people have believed it.
Umm, it IS "wrong" to put caffeinated soda into your body. Have you read the ingredient list for a Diet Coke? Do you think you are making a good choice when you drink that? Just saying.
Not the best thing for your body but not a sin.
I guess I disagree. If you choose to pollute your body, which is a temple, that is a sin. A very, very minor one in the big picure, but could it keep you from God? No unclean thing can enter His presence.
Mark 7:14-23 (RSV)

And he called the people to him again, and said to them, “Hear me, all of you, and understand: there is nothing outside a man which by going into him can defile him; but the things which come out of a man are what defile him.”

And when he had entered the house, and left the people, his disciples asked him about the parable. And he said to them, “Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a man from outside cannot defile him, since it enters, not his heart but his stomach, and so passes on?” (Thus he declared all foods clean.)

And he said, “What comes out of a man is what defiles a man. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, fornication, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a man.”

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