Satan's plan

For Discussion of the Spiritual/Religious side of the Secret Combination. i.e. New Age Movement, Occult, New Spirituality, The Shift, The Secret, The Law of Attraction.

Re: Satan's plan

Postby clarkkent14 » Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:00 pm

There seems to be a bit of confusion over PLANS. Just to be clear, there was only ONE PLAN presented. Heavenly Father presented it, and he chose Jehovah to fulfill the role of Savior in that plan. Lucifer was "cast out" because he rebelled, not because of his plan.

Bible Dictionary: War in Heaven - "This term arises out of Rev. 12: 7 and refers to the conflict that took place in the premortal existence among the spirit children of God. The war was primarily over how and in what manner the plan of salvation would be administered to the forthcoming human family upon the earth. The issues involved such things as agency, how to gain salvation, and who should be the Redeemer. The war broke out because one-third of the spirits refused to accept the appointment of Jesus Christ as the Savior. Such a refusal was a rebellion against the Father’s plan of redemption. It was evident that if given agency, some persons would fall short of complete salvation; Lucifer and his followers wanted salvation to come automatically to all who passed through mortality, without regard to individual preference, agency, or voluntary dedication (see Isa. 14: 12-20; Luke 10: 18; Rev. 12: 4-13; D&C 29: 36-38; Moses 4: 1-4). The spirits who thus rebelled and persisted were thrust out of heaven and cast down to the earth without mortal bodies, “and thus came the devil and his angels” (D&C 29: 37; see also Rev. 12: 9; Abr. 3: 24-28). "
Chad S. Clark

"For how knoweth a man the master whom he has not served..." (Mosiah 5:13) | Seek This Jesus | "By proving contraries, the truth is made manifest." - Joseph Smith
clarkkent14
LBFOJ

User avatar
 
Posts: 2094
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:08 pm
Location: Saint George, UT

Re: Satan's plan

Sponsor

Sponsor
 
The Mormon Chronicle

Latter-day Conservative

Re: Satan's plan

Postby shadow » Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:23 pm

Abraham 3:21-28 and Moses 4:1-4 are a good basic review of this topic.
"behold, he aspireth to establish his counsel instead of the counsel which I have ordained, even that of the Presidency of my Church" -The Lord
“Look to the Presidency and receive instruction,” -The Prophet Joseph Smith
shadow
Level 34 Illuminated

User avatar
 
Posts: 6350
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:22 am

Re: Satan's plan

Postby Rosabella » Thu Oct 29, 2009 7:35 pm

As a researcher quotes are very important to me I have tons more.... I know this is a lot of information but I feel it is important to see what we have been told regarding Lucifer's plan, what it was and how his plan would force us to keep commandments and take away our agency.

“Lesson 2: Jesus Christ Was Chosen to Be Our Savior,” Primary 6: Old Testament, (1996),6
[url]
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?h ... 82620aRCRD[/url]

1. To help the children imagine what it might be like to live under Lucifer’s plan, tell them that for the next few minutes they must do exactly what you say and nothing else (make sure they know they cannot talk). Have them stand and remain standing perfectly still for a few seconds. Then tell each child where to sit. (Do not seat friends near each other.) Tell the children they must sit erect, feet flat to the floor, looking straight ahead, not moving or speaking. Have them hold the position until you tell them otherwise. After about thirty seconds, let them stand again and sit where they want.

• What would it be like to live under Lucifer’s plan? (Help the children understand that Lucifer wanted us to do exactly as we were told, without being able to decide for ourselves.) Why wouldn’t his idea have worked?

•Have the children talk about how they felt and how they would feel if they were forced to do exactly what they were told to do all day every day. Express your gratitude for the blessing of agency.






First Counselor in the Young Women General Presidency

Virginia H. Pearce, “Fear,” Ensign, Nov 1992, 90

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=81cb9209df38b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

As we read the scriptures, we find that fear has been a part of the history of individuals ever since the world began. I can even imagine that in the preexistent world, when the two plans were presented, some may have chosen Lucifer’s plan because of fear—the fear of leaving the presence of the Father with no guarantee that we would return. Lucifer perhaps played on those fears by assuring that with his plan, all would return.



Daniel H. Ludlow, “Moral Free Agency,” New Era, Nov 1976, 44

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=26035930f289b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=024644f8f206c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

Lucifer’s proposal to deny free agency

There were some, however, in that pre-earthly council who did not shout for joy. They either lacked faith in our Heavenly Father, in the Savior, or in the gospel plan, or they lacked faith in their own ability or willingness to keep the law that would be given to them. Thus, they actively opposed the plan of our Heavenly Father. Their leader was called Lucifer, “the son of the morning”; he is also known as the devil or Satan.
Lucifer not only opposed the plan of our Heavenly Father, but he sought to amend and change the terms of salvation by denying men their free agency and by preempting our Heavenly Father. The exact words of Lucifer’s boast are contained in the book of Moses: “I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.” (Moses 4:1.)

We do not know all of the details of Lucifer’s amended proposal, but we do know from revelation that he “sought to destroy the agency of man.” (Moses 4:3.) This could be accomplished in many ways, including denying us either the opportunity of choice or the freedom of choice. In either case, not “one soul” would have been lost. It is sin that causes a soul to be lost, but how can a person sin if he does not have the opportunity to sin? That is, how can a person disobey a law if he does not have a law?

Lucifer’s proposed amendment appealed to some, but it did not appeal to any of us in this audience. We saw that under his plan we would lose the challenge of growth and progression. We did not want to live in a world where we would be on the same plane forever. We had enough faith in our Heavenly Father and in his plan, in Jesus Christ, and in ourselves that we wanted to live in a world where there would be opportunities for further development. At the same time I am sure we realized that if we were not faithful to these laws and opportunities we might even be worse off than we had been before.

Thus there was a great war in heaven, and a key issue in that war was whether or not man was to be a morally free agent while upon the earth. A vote was taken. (By the way, that in itself indicates that we had our free agency there; in a sense Lucifer exercised his free agency in an attempt to deny us the right to exercise our free agency.) Two-thirds of those present voted for the plan of our Heavenly Father; one-third voted against the plan and did not participate in it.



Jess L. Christensen, “I Have a Question,” Ensign, June 1986, 25–26

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=4a10ef960417b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

When our Father in Heaven presented his plan of salvation, Jesus sustained the plan and his part in it, giving the glory to God, to whom it properly belonged. Lucifer, on the other hand, sought power, honor, and glory only for himself. (See Isa. 14:13–14; Moses 4:1–2.) When his modification of the Father’s plan was rejected, he rebelled against God and was subsequently cast out of heaven with those who had sided with him. (See Rev. 12:7–9; D&C 29:36–37.)





“Lesson 2: Jesus Christ Volunteered to Be Our Savior,” Primary 7: New Testament, 5

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=83538c8fd6c20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=637e1b08f338c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

• 4. Heavenly Father called a meeting for all his spirit children. At this meeting he explained his plan for us to become like him. He told us that he wanted us to go to earth to get a physical body. He explained that on earth we would be tested to see if we would keep his commandments.

• 5. At this meeting Heavenly Father also explained that on earth we would all sin and we would all die. Heavenly Father needed someone to be the Savior, to suffer for our sins, and to die for us so that we could be resurrected.

• 6. Lucifer wanted Heavenly Father to change his plan. Lucifer said he would save everyone by taking away their freedom to choose, which would have made it impossible for us to make mistakes or be righteous. Lucifer also wanted all the honor (Moses 4:1).

• 7. Because he loved us (John 15:13), Jesus volunteered to be our Savior. He wanted to follow Heavenly Father’s plan and give the glory to Heavenly Father (Moses 4:2).

• 8. Heavenly Father chose Jesus to be our Savior. Lucifer was angry and rebelled against Heavenly Father (Revelation 12:7–9; Moses 4:3–4).

• 9. Heavenly Father’s spirit children had to decide whether to follow Jesus or Lucifer.

• 10. One-third of Heavenly Father’s spirit children chose to follow Lucifer, and they were all cast out of heaven. Lucifer became Satan, and the spirits who followed him became evil spirits, who try to get us to do wrong things. These spirits who followed Satan did not receive physical bodies.

• 11. All the spirits who chose Heavenly Father’s plan and followed Jesus in the premortal life have been or will be born on earth with physical bodies of flesh and blood.



Robert D. Hales, “I Am a Child of God,” Tambuli, Nov 1978, 21

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=33ad5991d66db010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=f318118dd536c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

Lucifer was vain and very selfish, for he desired all the honor and glory for the success of Heavenly Father’s plan. Because his plan was rejected, Lucifer became angry and rebellious. He and one-third of the spirit children who chose to follow him were cast out of heaven. Lucifer, whose name means the “shining one,” was told that he would now be known as Satan or the devil.


“The Great Council in Heaven,” Friend, Jan 1983, 48

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=793e9aa07a0ab010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=21bc9fbee98db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

Lucifer, another of God’s spirit sons, proposed, “Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem [save] all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.”

Lucifer’s willful, glory-seeking plan would have forced all the children of God to return to heaven. He wanted to take away our greatest gift, the right to choose for ourselves. Lucifer would not have allowed anyone to make a wrong decision, and we would have been like puppets with him controlling us.

Some of God’s children liked Lucifer’s idea, and one-third of them decided to follow him. Heavenly Father loved Lucifer and these spirit children, but because they refused to follow His plan, they were no longer worthy to remain with Him. Therefore they were cast out of heaven and could not be born on the earth and receive physical bodies.


David A. Bednar, “Seek Learning by Faith,” Liahona, Sep 2007, 16–24

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=feac742e35474110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=f318118dd536c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

Learning by faith and from experience are two of the central features of the Father’s plan of happiness. The Savior preserved moral agency through the Atonement and made it possible for us to act and to learn by faith. Lucifer’s rebellion against the plan sought to destroy the agency of man, and his intent was that we as learners would only be acted upon......

From these examples we recognize that as learners, you and I are to act and be doers of the word and not simply hearers who are only acted upon. Are you and I agents who act and seek learning by faith, or are we waiting to be taught and acted upon? Are the children, youth, and adults we serve acting and seeking to learn by faith, or are they waiting to be taught and acted upon? Are you and I encouraging and helping those we serve to seek learning by faith? We are all to be anxiously engaged in asking, seeking, and knocking (see 3 Nephi 14:7).

A learner exercising agency by acting in accordance with correct principles opens his or her heart to the Holy Ghost and invites His teaching, testifying power, and confirming witness. Learning by faith requires spiritual, mental, and physical exertion and not just passive reception.




“Lesson 2: Agency: The Power to Choose,” Preparing for Exaltation: Teacher’s Manual, 8

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=2101767978c20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=32c41b08f338c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

Explain that when Heavenly Father asked whom he should send, Jesus volunteered to be the Savior of the world and help fulfill Heavenly Father’s plan. Lucifer (Satan) also volunteered, but he demanded conditions that would have violated Heavenly Father’s plan. Heavenly Father chose Jesus.

• What was wrong with Satan’s proposal to save us? (See Moses 4:3; he wanted to take away our agency and force us to do right; also, he wanted Heavenly Father’s glory for himself.) What happened to Satan because of his rebellion against Heavenly Father’s plan? (See Abraham 3:28; Moses 4:3–4.)

• Point out that one of the reasons Satan was cast out was because he “sought to destroy the agency of man” (Moses 4:3). Why is agency so important? Why would it be bad for us to be forced to keep the commandments, as Satan wanted?

• What important choice did we make in the pre-earth life? (We chose to follow Heavenly Father and Jesus instead of Satan.) How do we know we made this choice? (We have physical bodies; those who followed Satan will never have the opportunity to have bodies. They did not keep their first estate.)

Quotation

Have a class member read the following statement by Elder Boyd K. Packer of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles:

“In the great council in heaven, God’s plan was presented: the plan of salvation, the plan of redemption, the great plan of happiness. … The adversary rebelled and adopted a plan of his own. Those who followed him were denied the right to a mortal body. Our presence here confirms that we sanctioned our Father’s plan” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1993, 27; or Ensign, Nov. 1993, 21).
http://www.FatherThyWillBeDone.com (Main Website)

http://www.UponTheWatchtower.com (Forum)

"For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect."
Rosabella
captain of 1,000

User avatar
 
Posts: 1199
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:57 pm

Re: Satan's plan

Postby Original_Intent » Thu Oct 29, 2009 7:52 pm

Bella, if under Lucifer's plan mankind could commit no sin, I do not understand his boast that he would "redeem all mankind". Redemption implies a state (sin) that they need to be redeemed from. I realize you have years of research into this, however please open your mind to another perspective.

All we know is that Satan sought to destroy the agency of man.
Claimed that not one soul would be lost, and that he would redeem all.
He sought the glory for himself.
Last edited by Original_Intent on Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Original_Intent
Level 34 Illuminated

User avatar
 
Posts: 8887
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:35 pm

Re: Satan's plan

Postby keeprunning » Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:01 pm

Well, she is just quoting what the church teaches. Especially the primary manuels make it very simple. I think in a broader sense all of you are right. For me it makes sense that he lied, and that he wanted to force us, and that he didn't want a veil.
keeprunning
captain of 100
 
Posts: 458
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:58 pm

Re: Satan's plan

Postby shadow » Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:05 pm

In the premortal life we were not redeemed as of yet right? Luci promised that which could not be done, a forced redemption for all. His plan was a lie because it literally went against eternal laws (D&C 121:34-46 particularly 41) and could not be done. Like my avatar says, "You can't outrun the long arm of the law". He must have been persuasive tho because 1/3 is a huge number.
"behold, he aspireth to establish his counsel instead of the counsel which I have ordained, even that of the Presidency of my Church" -The Lord
“Look to the Presidency and receive instruction,” -The Prophet Joseph Smith
shadow
Level 34 Illuminated

User avatar
 
Posts: 6350
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:22 am

Re: Satan's plan

Postby ereves » Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:13 pm

Bella wrote:As a researcher quotes are very important to me I have tons more.... I know this is a lot of information but I feel it is important to see what we have been told regarding Lucifer's plan, what it was and how his plan would force us to keep commandments and take away our agency.


Thank you Bella. After reading your quotes I'm going to assume that you have no evidence for the "no veil" theory. You say the quotes explain how Satan's plan would force us to keep the commandments but they don't they merely mention that such would be the case. My theory on the other hand DOES explain how he would destroy the agency of man... by bringing them into carnal subjection and thereby taking posession of their bodies and this is repeated throughout the scriptures. I'm almost sick of saying that but it has yet to be addressed. All you have done is confirm what I said in my orginial post.

ereves wrote:Regarding the pre-mortal council in heaven it is generally taught in the church that Satan's plan was to "force" everyone to be righteous. While this has been repeated by many church leaders I can't find any scriptural backing for it. Years ago I remember reading in a book by a general authority that suggested we wouldn't have all been righteous under Satan's plan but rather we would have all been carnal and sensual. What Satan offered was a false salvation for all, allowing you to do whatever you wanted, not forced righteousness (This seems much more consistent with scripture, satan's nature, and reason). I have not been able to find the reference for that though I thought it was Our Search for Happiness but that supports the forced righteousness view. Does anyone else happen to remember reading that who good provide us with the reference?


I will be even more specific and say it seems to me that this teaching has no basis in revelation either modern or ancient but is most likely based off of a misconception of what the scriptures are saying. I understand this teaching has been perpetuated by the brethren but what revelation is it founded on???? Let’s start a new research project and see who can get the earliest reference to the forced-righteousness theory. Keep in mind that if it is not in canonized scripture or a few other documents of the church considered official doctrine then it is merely opinion, even if its from one of the brethren, but it will still be educational to find out how it started.
ereves
captain of 100
 
Posts: 171
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:19 pm

Re: Satan's plan

Postby Rosabella » Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:36 pm

ereves wrote:
I will be even more specific and say it seems to me that this teaching has no basis in revelation either modern or ancient but is most likely based off of a misconception of what the scriptures are saying. I understand this teaching has been perpetuated by the brethren but what revelation is it founded on???? Let’s start a new research project and see who can get the earliest reference to the forced-righteousness theory. Keep in mind that if it is not in canonized scripture or a few other documents of the church considered official doctrine then it is merely opinion, even if its from one of the brethren, but it will still be educational to find out how it started.


"I understand this teaching has been perpetuated by the brethren but what revelation is it founded on????"

Wow, So what you are saying is that the Brethren are spreading false doctrines all the time by perpetuating the idea of forced righteousness. This is not just one person saying this idea it is found in the basic doctrines of the Church. If we discount what is in all the manuals, talks etc what are we to believe if? We are told that living Prophets are the same as scripture to believe other wise is going against what we have been told by scripture.

I was not posting about the veil, I was posting in regards to the questions of Lucifer having his own plan or not and that plan he had was force righteousness. The quotes that show the connection to the veil and agency are found in other talks.
http://www.FatherThyWillBeDone.com (Main Website)

http://www.UponTheWatchtower.com (Forum)

"For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect."
Rosabella
captain of 1,000

User avatar
 
Posts: 1199
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:57 pm

Re: Satan's plan

Postby Original_Intent » Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:42 pm

Bella, since you are responding I would really like your perspective on my last question directed your way.

I would point out that most of your quotes are from the Friend or from children's lesson manuals. I am not saying children are being intentionally deceived; I will say it makes very good sense that this is a "milk before meat" teaching, and many people have just made a logical (and I believe at least POSSIBLY incorrect linkage of "destroying the agency of man" = "forced righteousness".

The one general authority that you quote very clearly qualifies his statement with "We do not know all of the details of Lucifer’s amended proposal, but we do know from revelation that he “sought to destroy the agency of man.” (Moses 4:3.) This could be accomplished in many ways, including denying us either the opportunity of choice or the freedom of choice. In either case, not “one soul” would have been lost. It is sin that causes a soul to be lost, but how can a person sin if he does not have the opportunity to sin? That is, how can a person disobey a law if he does not have a law?"

I can tell by your responses that you are not openly discussing and claiming that your position is "church doctrine" I feel is a false assertion on your part. I am glad you are standing by what you feel is clearly outlined church doctrine, when a general authority feels the need to qualify his statements regarding the matter with "this could have been accomplished in many ways.

Please, if you are going to state it as doctrine, please provide a clear scriptural or member of the 12 or first presidency, past or present, clearly stating that Satan's plan was forced righteousness.
Last edited by Original_Intent on Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Original_Intent
Level 34 Illuminated

User avatar
 
Posts: 8887
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:35 pm

Re: Satan's plan

Postby Rosabella » Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:50 pm

Original Intent

It depends on the definition of redeem. Redeem can mean merely to restore to ones rightful owner in this case to God. It does not have to mean that Lucifer would pay any price, just bring us back to Father. One definition of Redeem in the dictionary is "to recover a possession".

The Redeeming Lucifer promised is merely the restoration of us back to Father. This process does not have to include sin or ransom for sin.


Here are pars of the quote I posted that say that Lucifer's plan was forced righteousness:


Help the children understand that Lucifer wanted us to do exactly as we were told, without being able to decide for ourselves

How can a person sin if he does not have the opportunity to sin?

We did not want to live in a world where we would be on the same plane forever.

would have made it impossible for us to make mistakes

Lucifer would not have allowed anyone to make a wrong decision, and we would have been like puppets with him controlling us.

he wanted to take away our agency and force us to do right

Why would it be bad for us to be forced to keep the commandments, as Satan wanted?


Based on these and many many other quotes I must side with Church doctrine on this matter.
http://www.FatherThyWillBeDone.com (Main Website)

http://www.UponTheWatchtower.com (Forum)

"For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect."
Rosabella
captain of 1,000

User avatar
 
Posts: 1199
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:57 pm

Re: Satan's plan

Postby shadow » Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:00 pm

OI, can you clarify for me how your view differs from what Bella has posted?
"behold, he aspireth to establish his counsel instead of the counsel which I have ordained, even that of the Presidency of my Church" -The Lord
“Look to the Presidency and receive instruction,” -The Prophet Joseph Smith
shadow
Level 34 Illuminated

User avatar
 
Posts: 6350
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:22 am

Re: Satan's plan

Postby Original_Intent » Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:18 pm

Only in that Satans plan was to force us to be righteous. I myself believed this until recently until reading the book Satan's war on Free Agency.

My personal belief is that Satan MORE LIKELY offered us an earth experience where we could do whatever we wished (not forced righteousness) and that we would learn good and evil on earth as a result of our choices. But either through somehow redeeming us all from a sinful state, or possibly making the earth experience one where we had no law, and thus could not commit sin, he promised that ALL could return to heaven and he wanted the glory to himself (no disagreement there).

And I think it is not a doctrinally important issue or I think we would have more specific information. The important facts that we do know are:

Satan sought to destroy the agency of man.
Satan sought God's glory for himself.
Satan and a third of the hosts of heaven were cast out due to rebellion.

The only point I have issue with is the assertion that Satan's plan involved forced righteousness is confirmed church doctrine. I believe it is something which has not been revealed as of yet, I am not claiming that my position is correct - I don't KNOW - but to me I find it hard to believe that a third of the hosts of heaven were willing to sign on to some plan of they would get a body but Lucifer would control them so that they would be righteous. Anyway, that is where we differ.
Original_Intent
Level 34 Illuminated

User avatar
 
Posts: 8887
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:35 pm

Re: Satan's plan

Postby shadow » Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:05 pm

Original_Intent wrote:
My personal belief is that Satan MORE LIKELY offered us an earth experience where we could do whatever we wished (not forced righteousness) and that we would learn good and evil on earth as a result of our choices.

Without agency (which Satan sought to take away) how can I choose anything? How can I learn? I guess that's my biggest hang up with the above idea.

BTW, I really enjoy 2 Nephi 2:13
"And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there is no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away."

Whatever Satan's plan was, whatever he offered (it had to take away our agency), it was a lie to begin with. Even if all Gods children chose to follow him, and his plan went into effect, we would have failed miserably, "vanished away" even.
"behold, he aspireth to establish his counsel instead of the counsel which I have ordained, even that of the Presidency of my Church" -The Lord
“Look to the Presidency and receive instruction,” -The Prophet Joseph Smith
shadow
Level 34 Illuminated

User avatar
 
Posts: 6350
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:22 am

Re: Satan's plan

Postby keeprunning » Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:08 pm

Original_Intent wrote:My personal belief is that Satan MORE LIKELY offered us an earth experience where we could do whatever we wished (not forced righteousness) and that we would learn good and evil on earth as a result of our choices.


Even if this IS what he offered, it more than likely would have been a lie anyway. And he still would have controlled us.
keeprunning
captain of 100
 
Posts: 458
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:58 pm

Re: Satan's plan

Postby clarkkent14 » Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:57 pm

I still don't think that Lucifer presented an official "plan." I had a General Authority speak to my mission district in the MTC, and he stated over and over that only one plan was presented. (I'm dying to remember his name). I don't doubt that Lucifer didn't like Father's plan, and he volunteered to be the savior. He still makes that pitch today that he is a savior. "Moses 1:19 And now, when Moses had said these words, Satan cried with a loud voice, and ranted upon the earth, and commanded, saying: I am the Only Begotten, worship me." I think he volunteered to be the savior, as long as some modifications were made in Father's plan. Perhaps he thought he was so wise that he should get all the glory for saving all.

There is so much confusion over this, here is a quote by N. Eldon Tanner: http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideN ... 82620aRCRD
At the council in heaven, two plans were presented for man’s salvation. Christ’s plan was approved and he was chosen as the Savior of the world; and Satan’s plan was rejected and he rebelled. The record states:

“Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;

“And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.” (Moses 4:3–4.)


So he says Jesus and Lucifer presented plans... If Christ presented the plan, how could he have said "Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever."

Did Father accept Jehovah's plan? OR did Jehovah accept Fathers plan? hmmmmm...

Again the Bible Dictionary | War in Heaven: "This term arises out of Rev. 12: 7 and refers to the conflict that took place in the premortal existence among the spirit children of God. The war was primarily over how and in what manner the plan of salvation would be administered to the forthcoming human family upon the earth. The issues involved such things as agency, how to gain salvation, and who should be the Redeemer. The war broke out because one-third of the spirits refused to accept the appointment of Jesus Christ as the Savior. Such a refusal was a rebellion against the Father’s plan of redemption. It was evident that if given agency, some persons would fall short of complete salvation; Lucifer and his followers wanted salvation to come automatically to all who passed through mortality, without regard to individual preference, agency, or voluntary dedication (see Isa. 14: 12-20; Luke 10: 18; Rev. 12: 4-13; D&C 29: 36-38; Moses 4: 1-4). The spirits who thus rebelled and persisted were thrust out of heaven and cast down to the earth without mortal bodies, “and thus came the devil and his angels” (D&C 29: 37; see also Rev. 12: 9; Abr. 3: 24-28)."
Chad S. Clark

"For how knoweth a man the master whom he has not served..." (Mosiah 5:13) | Seek This Jesus | "By proving contraries, the truth is made manifest." - Joseph Smith
clarkkent14
LBFOJ

User avatar
 
Posts: 2094
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:08 pm
Location: Saint George, UT

Re: Satan's plan

Postby clarkkent14 » Fri Oct 30, 2009 12:13 am

“The contention in heaven was—Jesus said there would be certain souls that would not be saved; and the devil said he would save them all, and laid his plans before the grand council, who gave their vote in favor of Jesus Christ. So the devil rose up in rebellion against God, and was cast down, with all who put up their heads for him.” - History of the Church, 6:314; from a discourse given by Joseph Smith on Apr. 7, 1844, in Nauvoo, Illinois; reported by Wilford Woodruff, Willard Richards, Thomas Bullock, and William Clayton.

To me this sounds like he "laid his plans" out... or his pitch to be the Savior... his platform if you will...

I think the vote was, "Who will you choose to be your Savior?" not "Who's plan will you choose?"

I don't know though... it's very confusing and conflicting. I'm sure the adversary likes it that way.

Although I will say again that some argue as if Satan has one plan that he does not vary from... he deceives in so many ways... he changes his approach constantly... he is the opposite of Christ who is unchanging, does not vary, and has only one way.
Chad S. Clark

"For how knoweth a man the master whom he has not served..." (Mosiah 5:13) | Seek This Jesus | "By proving contraries, the truth is made manifest." - Joseph Smith
clarkkent14
LBFOJ

User avatar
 
Posts: 2094
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:08 pm
Location: Saint George, UT

Re: Satan's plan

Postby Rosabella » Fri Oct 30, 2009 12:25 am

Missionary Reference Library
GOSPEL PRINCIPLES

OUR HEAVENLY FATHER PRESENTED A PLAN FOR US TO BECOME LIKE HIM

Since we could not progress further in heaven, our Heavenly Father called a Grand Council (see Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 348, 349, 365) to present us his plan for our progression. We learned that if we followed his plan, we would become like him. We would have a resurrected body; we would have all power in heaven and on earth; we would become heavenly parents and have spirit children just as he does. (D&C 132:19-20.)
We learned that he would provide an earth for us where we would be tested. (Abraham 3:24-26.) A veil would cover our memories, and we would forget our heavenly home. This would be necessary so that we could choose good or evil because of our natural desire for good or evil. We would not be influenced by the memory of living with our Heavenly Father. Thus we could obey him because of our faith in him not because of our knowledge, or memory of him. He would help us recognize the truth when we heard it again on earth (see John 18:37).

At the Grand Council we also learned the purpose for our progression. We learned that we might have a fullness of joy. However, we also learned that not all of our Father’s children would want to receive a fullness of joy. Some of us would be deceived, choose other paths, and lose our way. We learned that all of us would have trials in our lives: sickness, disappointment, pain, sorrow, and death. But we understood that these would be given to us for our experience and our good (see D&C 122:7). If we allowed them to, these trials good (see D&C 122:7). If we allowed them to, these trials to have endurance, patience, and charity (see Spencer W. Kimball, Tragedy or Destiny? P. 4).

At this council we also learned that because of our weakness, all of us would sin. We learned that a Savior would be provided for us so that we could overcome our sins and overcome death with resurrection. We learned that if we obeyed his word and followed his example we would be, exalted and become like our heavenly parents. We would receive a fullness of joy.


Chapter 3 JESUS CHRIST, OUR CHOSEN LEADER AND SAVIOR


A SAVIOR AND LEADER WAS NEEDED

We understood that we would have to leave our heavenly home for a time. We would not live in the presence of our heavenly parents. While we were away from them, all of us would sin and some of us would lose our way. Our Heavenly Father knew and loved each one of us. He knew that we would need help, so he planned a way to help us.

We needed a Savior to pay for our sins and to teach us how to return to our Heavenly Father. Our Father said, ‘Whom I shall I send?” (Abraham 3:27). Two of our brothers offered to help. Our oldest brother, Jesus Christ, who was then called Jehovah, said, “Here am I, send me” (Abraham 3:27).
Jesus was willing to come to the earth, to give his life for us, and to take upon himself our sins. He, like our Heavenly Father, wanted us to choose whether we would obey Heavenly Father’s commandments. He knew that we must be free to choose in order to prove ourselves worthy of exaltation. Jesus said: “Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever' Moses 4:2 Satan, who was called Lucifer also came, saying: “Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son. And I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor” (Moses 4:1).

Satan wanted to force us all to do his will. Under his plan, we would not be allowed to choose. He would take away from us the freedom of choice that our Father had given to us. Satan wanted to have all the honor for our salvation. He wanted to be our God.

OI Quote:
"My personal belief is that Satan MORE LIKELY offered us an earth experience where we could do whatever we wished (not forced righteousness) and that we would learn good and evil on earth as a result of our choices."


"Satan wanted to force us all to do his will. Under his plan, we would not be allowed to choose. He would take away from us the freedom of choice that our Father had given to us.'


If the premise of the author of "Satan's War on Free Agency" is that we get to do whatever we want therefore having choices for good or evil without consequences it goes contrary to what our Gospel Principles book says. We are told that under Lucifer's plan he would take away our freedom to choose. Under Father's plan we get to use our agency to choose.

"A veil would cover our memories, and we would forget our heavenly home. This would be necessary so that we could choose good or evil because of our natural desire for good or evil. We would not be influenced by the memory of living with our Heavenly Father. Thus we could obey him because of our faith in him not because of our knowledge, or memory of him. He would help us recognize the truth when we heard it again on earth"


This quote along with many others is what made me think that the veil is the key to our free agency here in mortality, for our second test. Knowing that then thinking Lucifer wanted to take away agency the logical conclusion was simple, take away the veil and you have no agency as the quote says the veil was necessary for us so we could choose good or evil, there for use our agency to choose. This war over the two plans was our first test of Faith in Father. Now we have a second one to see if we will have Faith in Him again and do His will as the quote says.
"Thus we could obey him because of our faith in him not because of our knowledge, or memory of him."


Again this is just something to ponder.

I stand by the Church and the many references about Lucifer using forced righteousness over one institute teacher that wrote a book, no matter how good of a person or how logical his thoughts may be. Many witnesses of this concept of Lucifer wanting to force righteousness is found in talks of the Brethren and manuals of the Church etc. Call me a fundamentalist if you want for I am one.

In regards to my personal theory of the veil stand by the Church not me. This idea was witnessed to me and verified, but that is just my word and my experience not yours, so therefore it is only a theory and should only be taken as such.
http://www.FatherThyWillBeDone.com (Main Website)

http://www.UponTheWatchtower.com (Forum)

"For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect."
Rosabella
captain of 1,000

User avatar
 
Posts: 1199
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:57 pm

Re: Satan's plan

Postby Rosabella » Fri Oct 30, 2009 12:56 am

clarkkent14 wrote:So he says Jesus and Lucifer presented plans... If Christ presented the plan, how could he have said "Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever."

Did Father accept Jehovah's plan? OR did Jehovah accept Fathers plan? hmmmmm...

."


I think it is far more simple. Father had a plan. It was Father's plan. Father asked "Whom should I send"

Satan said: 1.....—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.

2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.

At that moment when Lucifer wanted to modify drastically Father's Plan there became two plans. One that Jehovah supported for it was the will of the Father and one that Lucifer suggested that was his will not the Father's. The war then began over these two plans, we chose sides. 1/3 part choose to follow Lucifer the rest followed Christ and Father. So the plan you can say, became Christ plan for His will was Father's and he stood by Father and fought for His plan along with others. Jehovah being the Chosen since the beginning I would think would make the Plan be His also. Father and Jehovah's wills are the same. Therefore you could say the plan is both Fathers and Jehovah's for Jehovah choose it and was the Chosen by Father.
http://www.FatherThyWillBeDone.com (Main Website)

http://www.UponTheWatchtower.com (Forum)

"For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect."
Rosabella
captain of 1,000

User avatar
 
Posts: 1199
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:57 pm

Re: Satan's plan

Postby ereves » Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:17 am

Bella wrote:
ereves wrote:
"I understand this teaching has been perpetuated by the brethren but what revelation is it founded on????"


Wow, So what you are saying is that the Brethren are spreading false doctrines all the time by perpetuating the idea of forced righteousness. (That’s a pretty strong way of putting it. The church used to preach that plural marriage was a requirement for exaltation but they now they teach that that's not true. Were they preaching false doctrine before? I guess so but I view it more as we had limited understanding before. The church progresses line upon line just as we do as individuals. Official doctrine is found in the four standard works and in declarations/statements made by the first presidency and council of the twelve unanimously. Anything out side of this whether accurate or not, is not binding doctrine. See Approaching Mormon Doctrine http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng ... n-doctrine)This is not just one person saying this idea it is found in the basic doctrines of the Church. (I disagree. Even if many have echoed the teaching and its in the manuals of the church this alone does not constitute official doctrine.) If we discount what is in all the manuals, talks etc what are we to believe if? We are told that living Prophets are the same as scripture to believe other wise is going against what we have been told by scripture. (See Approaching Mormon Doctrine http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/commentary/approaching-mormon-doctrine)

I was not posting about the veil, I was posting in regards to the questions of Lucifer having his own plan or not and that plan he had was force righteousness. The quotes that show the connection to the veil and agency are found in other talks. (Any time you want to show us those would be great.)


Bella… once again, so much of what you are posting everybody already agrees on… we know the Father’s/Christ’s plan includes a veil, agency, learning by faith etc… nobody refutes that.

shadow wrote:OI, can you clarify for me how your view differs from what Bella has posted?
Original_Intent wrote:Only in that Satans plan was to force us to be righteous. I myself believed this until recently until reading the book Satan's war on Free Agency.

My personal belief is that Satan MORE LIKELY offered us an earth experience where we could do whatever we wished (not forced righteousness) and that we would learn good and evil on earth as a result of our choices. But either through somehow redeeming us all from a sinful state, or possibly making the earth experience one where we had no law, and thus could not commit sin, he promised that ALL could return to heaven and he wanted the glory to himself (no disagreement there).

And I think it is not a doctrinally important issue or I think we would have more specific information. The important facts that we do know are:

Satan sought to destroy the agency of man.
Satan sought God's glory for himself.
Satan and a third of the hosts of heaven were cast out due to rebellion.

The only point I have issue with is the assertion that Satan's plan involved forced righteousness is confirmed church doctrine. I believe it is something which has not been revealed as of yet, I am not claiming that my position is correct - I don't KNOW - but to me I find it hard to believe that a third of the hosts of heaven were willing to sign on to some plan of they would get a body but Lucifer would control them so that they would be righteous. Anyway, that is where we differ.


Thank you original_intent. I think I agree with everything except could you explain how we would have still learned the difference between good and evil under such a plan?? As I understand it we would have been carnal and ignorant and not known the law. We would not have know the difference between good and evil and we would have become subjected to satan and “redeemed” in his kingdom. Could you explain that detail?

Bella wrote:I stand by the Church (you stand by those that have voiced that opinion) and the many references about Lucifer using forced righteousness (not official church doctrine) over one institute teacher that wrote a book, no matter how good of a person or how logical his thoughts may be. Many witnesses of this concept of Lucifer wanting to force righteousness is found in talks of the Brethren and manuals of the Church etc. Call me a fundamentalist if you want for I am one. (I disagree, I find myself more fundamentalist… ie show me the scriptures please and the revelations)

In regards to my personal theory of the veil stand by the Church not me. This idea was witnessed to me and verified, but that is just my word and my experience not yours, so therefore it is only a theory and should only be taken as such.(thank you for acknowledging this about the no-veil idea)
ereves
captain of 100
 
Posts: 171
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:19 pm

Re: Satan's plan

Postby ereves » Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:48 am

I think it would help if I expounded on how it is that we become subject to Satan…

Amulek taught:

Alma 34:34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.


As I mentioned previously, I have never heard this scripture interpreted correctly. All throughout my life in the church I have seen it used to say “the way our spirits are now in this life is the same way that it will be in the spirit world so if we don’t repent here, we won’t repent there.” Sadly, I even used this scripture on my mission to explain that. As I’ve studied about Satan and his plan however I have come to realize what this really means. It actually doesn’t have to be interpreted at all; we just need to put it in context. Here’s the next verse:

Alma 34:35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.


In this life we have one choice to make. We choose either to obey God and thereby become filled with the Spirit which gives life and agency or disobey God, follow the desires of the flesh which allows the spirit of the devil to literally take possession of our bodies and leads to death and captivity. Whichever we allow to take possession of us in this life will be allowed to take possession of us in the next life. Alma 40 teaches this:

Alma 40:
12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.
13 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house—and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.

Mosiah also teaches this principle:

Mosiah 16:3 For they are carnal and devilish, and the devil has power over them; yea, even that old serpent that did beguile our first parents, which was the cause of their fall; which was the cause of all mankind becoming carnal, sensual, devilish, knowing evil from good, subjecting themselves to the devil…
5 But remember that he that persists in his own carnal nature, and goes on in the ways of sin and rebellion against God, remaineth in his fallen state and the devil hath all power over him. Therefore he is as though there was no redemption made, being an enemy to God; and also is the devil an enemy to God…
11 If they be good, to the resurrection of endless life and happiness; and if they be evil, to the resurrection of endless damnation, being delivered up to the devil, who hath subjected them, which is damnation—


There are many other scriptures that talk about this but let me quote Lehi to wrap it up and tie it in to Satan’s plan:

2 Nephi 2:
27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and call things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.
28 And now, my sons, I would that ye should look to the great Mediator, and hearken unto his great commandments; and be faithful unto his words, and choose eternal life, according to the will of his Holy Spirit;
29 And not choose eternal death, according to the will of the flesh and the evil which is therein, which giveth the spirit of the devil power to captivate, to bring you down to hell, that he may reign over you in his own kingdom.


This is how Satan destroy’s our agency… we choose to give into the temptations of the flesh and he possesses us. The more we sin, the more we are subjected to him. If we refuse to repent and take advantage of God’s plan we will remain in this state forever as if there had been no redemption made and we go to Satan’s kingdom where he rules over us for eternity, being able to possess us there because we chose to allow him to do so. If this is how Satan destroys agency in this life why would this not be what the scriptures refer to when it says Satan sought to destroy the agency of man. This is why Satan was cast out, as far as I understand it, and why he became the devil. He knew what had been done in other worlds and this is what he desired. Yes, he sought to replace God and those that follow him make him their god and will be in his kingdom for eternity. It seems so much more simple to me to think that Satan’s plan is in full effect here as is God’s.

clarkkent14 wrote:Did Father accept Jehovah's plan? OR did Jehovah accept Fathers plan? hmmmmm...


This has all been done many times before. God presented the ONLY plan by which exaltation is possible. We accepted it and Christ accepted to be the necessary Savior for it to work.

clarkkent14 wrote: Although I will say again that some argue as if Satan has one plan that he does not vary from... he deceives in so many ways... he changes his approach constantly... he is the opposite of Christ who is unchanging, does not vary, and has only one way.


Satan does have one plan… don’t obey the Father. Follow your carnal desires and you will have a place in my kingdom. You can do anything but what the Father asks of you and you will have a place in my kingdom. Lucifer chose to become the devil. The devil that was as necessary to the plan as was the Savior. He choose to be evil and was cast out of the presence of God. He prepared a place called hell which the scriptures say was prepared from the beginning! In other words this was his plan all along even if he made it look pretty. He did not have the ability to invent his own plan… he simply chose what part he would play in the only plan that has been occurring for eternity… we do the same.

Now please, either refute or confirm what I say here. I know what the church generally teaches and I acknowledged this in my original post so please don’t try to enlighten me with that. Just show me if there is any thing in the scriptures or official church doctrine to argue against this theory (which I believe and is backed by scripture) or that argues for the generally taught forced-righteousness theory (which I don’t buy into and can find no scriptural evidence for).
ereves
captain of 100
 
Posts: 171
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:19 pm

Re: Satan's plan

Postby Original_Intent » Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:00 am

ereves in response to your request of how we could have known good and evil - it is a good point. I think my thought is that Satan's plan was that there would NOT be opposition in all things. If his plan were accepted there would have been no devil, no 1/3 of the hosts of heaven to tempt mankind. I think the learning he proposed is that man would come to earth, make various choices (i.e. some people would care for their children and some would not, some people would be faithful to their spouse and others would not, and they would learn which behaviors produced the best results. However, I believe he proposed that there would be no law given, and since no law was given, no law would be broken and therefore no sin. All could go to earth, receive a mortal body, learn, not so much to discern good from evil because the concepts would not exist, but they would learn which behaviors brought about the best results and grow in that way.

Of course whatever he proposed was absolutely a lie and a deception. And I do not say Bella is wrong in what she says, I merely say we have not been given what she says as doctrine of the church and she is not in the position to proclaim it as such. I am still waiting for scripture or prophetic utterance to back waht she says, I am sorry quotes from the friend, the Liahona, and Sunday School manuals for 6 and 8 year olds does not cut it for me. Again I am not saying it is wrong I am saying even GAs are careful to qualify their statements that destroying the agency of man could have been accomplished in any number of ways, ONE of which would be to force righteousness.
Original_Intent
Level 34 Illuminated

User avatar
 
Posts: 8887
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:35 pm

Re: Satan's plan

Postby Original_Intent » Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:20 am

ereves, reading your last post, I find nothing to disagree with. There is so much that we have yet to learn, hopefully we can reach a point where the knowledge will be given to us.

I have always believed that if there are 10 million members in the church, there are 10 million versions of the gospel. Even among the prophets, other than those that have had all things revealed to them, I think there are areas wher understanding is stronger and weaker, and as you enter the general membership there is quite a spectrum of beliefs, some true and some incorrect that we were either incorrectly taught by parents, or just lack of understanding. As I have state repeatedly, I have believed in the "force plan" most of my 45 years as doctrine of the church, now I am highly skeptical that was the case. I am not sure one way or the other, but the evidence to me points otherwise. I would abandon my position in an instance if I were shown scriptural evidence, a prophetic utterance or if the Spirit directed me otherwise.

As much as I love Bella, I think she is incorrect in this case and that is OK. If it were a matter of doctrine that our salvation depended on, I think we would have had more specific information.
Original_Intent
Level 34 Illuminated

User avatar
 
Posts: 8887
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:35 pm

Re: Satan's plan

Postby shadow » Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:09 am

Bella wrote: Now we have a second one to see if we will have Faith in Him again and do His will as the quote says.
"Thus we could obey him because of our faith in him not because of our knowledge, or memory of him."



In regards to my personal theory of the veil stand by the Church not me (Where does the church teach this??). This idea was witnessed to me and verified, but that is just my word and my experience not yours, so therefore it is only a theory and should only be taken as such.

Do you agree that even without the veil we would have agency? Was the veil removed for Joseph Smith at age 14? Did he then lose his agency? Or did he lose his faith and replace it with knowledge, still being able to act on it?

From your quote and from the scriptures the veil was given to us to act on faith not to receive agency. We already had agency did we not? Some in the premortal life were more faithful than others. That's a choice. 1/3 used their agency to follow Lucifer and his plan. The agency we have now is a continuation of the agency we had before this life. We chose to come here to act on faith.

Remember that Satan sought (and seeks) to take away our agency. That implies we already had it.
"behold, he aspireth to establish his counsel instead of the counsel which I have ordained, even that of the Presidency of my Church" -The Lord
“Look to the Presidency and receive instruction,” -The Prophet Joseph Smith
shadow
Level 34 Illuminated

User avatar
 
Posts: 6350
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:22 am

Re: Satan's plan

Postby ereves » Fri Oct 30, 2009 12:45 pm

Thanks for your posts Originla_Intent. You bring up some good points. A lot of people don't realize how ambiguous the gospel is sometimes. The brethren don't agree on a lot of things, like you say, and I'm totally ok with that. The Lord doesn't reveal everything about everything all at once, he lets us work through it and when necessary he speaks.

Much misunderstanding about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints revolves around its doctrine…The Church welcomes inquisitiveness, but the challenge of understanding Mormon doctrine is not merely a matter of accessing the abundant information available. Rather, it is a matter of how this information is approached and examined… The doctrinal tenets of any religion are best understood within a broad context (see here and here), and thoughtful analysis is required to understand them.
Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine.
Some doctrines are more important than others and might be considered core doctrines.
Individual members are encouraged to independently strive to receive their own spiritual confirmation of the truthfulness of Church doctrine. Moreover, the Church exhorts all people to approach the gospel not only intellectually but with the intellect and the spirit, a process in which reason and faith work together.
http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng ... n-doctrine
ereves
captain of 100
 
Posts: 171
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:19 pm

Re: Satan's plan

Postby Rosabella » Fri Oct 30, 2009 1:02 pm

shadow wrote:
Bella wrote: Now we have a second one to see if we will have Faith in Him again and do His will as the quote says.
"Thus we could obey him because of our faith in him not because of our knowledge, or memory of him."



In regards to my personal theory of the veil stand by the Church not me (Where does the church teach this??). This idea was witnessed to me and verified, but that is just my word and my experience not yours, so therefore it is only a theory and should only be taken as such.

Do you agree that even without the veil we would have agency? Was the veil removed for Joseph Smith at age 14? Did he then lose his agency? Or did he lose his faith and replace it with knowledge, still being able to act on it?

From your quote and from the scriptures the veil was given to us to act on faith not to receive agency. We already had agency did we not? Some in the premortal life were more faithful than others. That's a choice. 1/3 used their agency to follow Lucifer and his plan. The agency we have now is a continuation of the agency we had before this life. We chose to come here to act on faith.

Remember that Satan sought (and seeks) to take away our agency. That implies we already had it.


As for understanding the veil, look at all references regarding agency, choice and Father's plan etc.. in talks. When you look at what they say that gives us the ability to choose good or evil in this life then think what is the opposite; it helps clarify.

Agency is our use of our will to choose Father's will or not.

The veil is a means that allows for a test to occur in this life that would could have any other way. For we were already tested by using our agency in the presence of Father and chose right. Now we are tested to see if we will choose Father's will with the veil of forgetfulness. This then tests us at another level of our Faith. These tests are just to prove ourselves worthy of being Disciples of God. It is a test to see if we are willing to summit our will to Father in all things, because that is the only way we can become like Him. If we have any pride or (our own will) we are not teachable. We must be totally teachable to become like Him.

"Do you agree that even without the veil we would have agency?" Yes, but we were already tested without the veil, so we needed a stronger test.

"Was the veil removed for Joseph Smith at age 14?" No, it was thinned. The Veil was never removed completely or Joseph would have remembered all things past, present and future.

"Did he then lose his agency?" No not at all. The veil was not removed. He was given added light which mean added responsibilities. Which in someways feel even far harder of a test of faith.

"Or did he lose his faith and replace it with knowledge, [u]still being able to act on it." No the veil was not fully removed so there was still space for agency and faith.

"From your quote and from the scriptures the veil was given to us to act on faith not to receive agency." correct, Faith is the action of Humility that make us teachable by Father. Pride ends our ability to be taught, just as it ended Lucifer's.

"Some in the premortal life were more faithful than others. That's a choice." Yes for some had more faith in Father then did others. They were more humble and teachable.

"1/3 used their agency to follow Lucifer and his plan." yes, it was their agency to chose between Father's will and theirs own will. Which was also Lucifer's will. Meaning choosing to go against Father's will is the chose Lucifer made and 1/3 of the host of heaven.

"The agency we have now is a continuation of the agency we had before this life. We chose to come here to act on faith." Yes. In this life we must use Faith even far greater then we did in Heaven, for then we knew directly the will of Father. Here we are given the light of Christ. Father's will is less obvious so it must be discovered by our natural desire for good or evil. Good or evil could be describe as Humility or Pride or Obedience or Disobedience. Our Faith is therefore tested at a higher level.

"Remember that Satan sought (and seeks) to take away our agency. That implies we already had it" Yes we have always had it. But what Lucifer sought after was for us not to be tested by our agency in this life. To just become Gods as he believed he was already. He would force all of us to do his will under his plan which was a plan of no choice and not one soul would be lost. When I look at it, it seems simple. In this life to choose between good and evil is 1) that good and evil must exist therefore opposition in all things 2) that we have the veil that makes us forget all we knew so that we need to act on faith and submission to Father's will again.

(Satan wanted to force us all to do his will. Under his plan, we would not be allowed to choose. He would take away from us the freedom of choice that our Father had given to us. Satan wanted to have all the honor for our salvation. He wanted to be our God.) Gospel principles

I think Lucifer felt he had a better plan than Fathers so he declared himself a God and fought for his plan, wanting to dethrone Father and get all the glory, for it was a plan he himself created. He took parts of Father's plan but changed it therefore becoming a new plan.

For Lucifer to take away freedom of choice for me the simplest way would be to never have the veil in the first place. For if we remembered everything would we sin? I do not think so, I think we would all choose the right. Therefore the veil lets us choose.

I can not agree with the other ideas presented as Lucifer's plan for in them we are still allowed to choose. We are told that in his plan we would not be allowed to choose. The only alternative explanation that might hold water was the one where we were to come here with no law and do whatever we wanted with no consequences for there were no laws, then we would be like a child and sinless for we would not know right from wrong. But there still would be no growth, and I think no reason to suggest this idea. When a far simpler idea could be presented.

Since we had all kinds of knowledge in the pre-mortal world, why would we like the idea of coming to an earth without that knowledge? It would be like saying to a person now, I am going to wipe out your memory and all that you have learned and you have to start over.....what would be your first thoughts and feelings? Fear or Faith? Would you be fearful that you would not find your way back to the Gospel? Who would choose that unless Father said trust me this is the best way. I can see why if that was the plan why so many chose the guarantee Lucifer was presenting because the said "Why forget all we know" That would easily gain 1/3 support.

That is why I feel we are told Fear and Faith can not exist at the same time. They are in true opposition and I think the original opposition we felt in heaven. The original good and evil. This opposition is what the battle was over. Those that had Faith in Father and those that feared and did not have Faith in Father. The fear was the expression of pride. Pride is the universal sin. Where humility is the expression of Faith or Faith is the expression of Humility.

I see things like this:

Fear, Pride, Selfishness, Evil, Disobedient, My will not Thine, Lucifer, Not teachable = unwilling to submit to Fathers plan that included a veil, no opposition in all things, No need for faith
Faith, Humility, Selflessness, Good, Obedient, Thy will not mine, Christ, Teachable = willingness to submit to Fathers plan that included a veil, opposition in all things, Need for Faith
http://www.FatherThyWillBeDone.com (Main Website)

http://www.UponTheWatchtower.com (Forum)

"For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect."
Rosabella
captain of 1,000

User avatar
 
Posts: 1199
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:57 pm

Re: Satan's plan

Postby ereves » Fri Oct 30, 2009 1:08 pm

The reason I feel like this realization of what the plan of Satan is has been so significant for me is because if this is really the case, then Satan's plan is in full effect here, as is God's. The whole history of the world truly is a history of the conflict between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of the devil. (Not a history of God trying to set up his kingdom and Satan running around like an angry little child throwing a temper tantrum trying to mess it up for God after his idea was rejected.) Satan is very organized, he is very smart and the way he sets up his kingdom in this world is through secret combinations. Secret combinations cause whole peoples to sin and they are brought into subjection (Satan's plan to destroy agency!!!) I guarantee he promises those people a place in his kingdom if they do what he says just as God does with us. This whole thing is actually really sick which is probably why the church doesn't dive into it. They don't really even get into the secret combinations. This is where I'd really like the discussion to go because this brings it into reality. With this view (of how satans plan really works) the pre-mortal council in heaven is no longer just a cool story almost like a fantasy book that we can just sit around and talk about, it becomes very significant and very real. The more we understand it and the more we understand how Satan works in this world, the more we will be able to thwart his plans and usher in the millennium which is the whole point of us knowing about the secret combinations in our day.

24 Wherefore, the Lord commandeth you, when ye shall see these things come among you that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation, because of this secret combination which shall be among you; or wo be unto it, because of the blood of them who have been slain; for they cry from the dust for vengeance upon it, and also upon those who built it up.
25 For it cometh to pass that whoso buildeth it up seeketh to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries; and it bringeth to pass the destruction of all people, for it is built up by the devil, who is the father of all lies; even that same liar who beguiled our first parents, yea, even that same liar who hath caused man to commit murder from the beginning; who hath hardened the hearts of men that they have murdered the prophets, and stoned them, and cast them out from the beginning.
26 Wherefore, I, Moroni, am commanded to write these things that evil may be done away, and that the time may come that Satan may have ano power upon the hearts of the children of men, but that they may be persuaded to do good continually, that they may come unto the fountain of all righteousness and be saved.
ereves
captain of 100
 
Posts: 171
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:19 pm

Re: Satan's plan

Postby Rosabella » Fri Oct 30, 2009 1:18 pm

ereves wrote: The brethren don't agree on a lot of things, like you say, and I'm totally ok with that.


I say the contrary people do not realize how MUCH they truly do agree. On this forum I have been shocked with the amount of discussion of how the GAs do not agree on things.Where this idea comes from I have no idea. I do not see that nor have I experienced that. For me I have seen them agree almost entirely if not entirely. Members on the other hand (especially on this forum) disagree on a lot of things including what the Brethren say is truth or not.

I think the confusions and contractions in interpretations lie with the members not the Brethren.
http://www.FatherThyWillBeDone.com (Main Website)

http://www.UponTheWatchtower.com (Forum)

"For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect."
Rosabella
captain of 1,000

User avatar
 
Posts: 1199
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:57 pm

Re: Satan's plan

Postby ereves » Fri Oct 30, 2009 1:55 pm

Bella wrote:
ereves wrote: The brethren don't agree on a lot of things, like you say, and I'm totally ok with that.


I say the contrary people do not realize how MUCH they truly do agree. On this forum I have been shocked with the amount of discussion of how the GAs do not agree on things.Where this idea comes from I have no idea. (reality) I do not see that nor have I experienced that. (you will if you look outside General Conference and the friend) For me I have seen them agree almost entirely if not entirely. (Have you ever heard of church history?) Members on the other hand (especially on this forum) disagree on a lot of things including what the Brethren say is truth or not. (which the brethren encourage us to do and seek out our own confirmations of what they teach... I for one stand by the brethren in this matter and not by your theory.)

I think the confusions and contractions in interpretations lie with the members not the Brethren.


Bella, you are a victim of contemporary mormon culture though you claim to be a "fundamentalist." You say, "On this forum I have been shocked with the amount of discussion of how the GAs do not agree on things.Where this idea comes from I have no idea." That’s funny because I have no idea where you get the idea that the teaching of the brethren is uniform and almost entirely in agreement if not entirely. I honestly don't know what you are talking about or where that teaching comes from. The brethren don't claim that. The church has never taught that. Church history does not show that. Reality does not back it up. It is a MORMON MYTH developed by the membership!!! Please show me a quote by someone who says the brethren can't be wrong and agree on everything. Of course the brethren are in agreement on the fundamental core doctrines of the gospel (and you rarely get anything beyond that in General Confernce) but they do not have to agree on things beyond that. They were split for decades on the blacks and the priesthood issue before 1978, they have not all agreed on eternal progression (whether or not there is progression between kingdoms), they have not been unanimous on evolution etc. Did Paul and Peter agree on circumcision? A committee of apostles found over 1,000 false doctrines in Bruce R McConkie's original Mormon Doctrine book and there are falsehoods in it today.

I have a strong testimony of the church, the Book of Mormon etc. but I try not to have a fantasy view of the church. The self-righteous mormon view that the brethren are perfect is what drives a lot of people away from the church and will make you doubt if you're not careful once you realize it is false. It is dangerous because it is false! It is also what has cause 75% of this thread to be dedicated to addressing this problem rather than addressing the issue at hand. I can’t be too hard on you because that is how I used to feel too. I’m only trying to help you out. Have you read Approaching Mormon Doctrine yet?? I will provide the link again: http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng ... n-doctrine
ereves
captain of 100
 
Posts: 171
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:19 pm

Re: Satan's plan

Postby ereves » Fri Oct 30, 2009 1:57 pm

ereves wrote:Now please, either refute or confirm what I say here. I know what the church generally teaches and I acknowledged this in my original post so please don’t try to enlighten me with that. Just show me if there is any thing in the scriptures or official church doctrine to argue against this theory (which I believe and is backed by scripture) or that argues for the generally taught forced-righteousness theory (which I don’t buy into and can find no scriptural evidence for).


Bella have you read or thought about what I am arguing? I really am interested in what you think. Please tell me if it at least makes sense.
ereves
captain of 100
 
Posts: 171
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:19 pm

Re: Satan's plan

Postby ereves » Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:04 pm

“Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or President George Q. Cannon or whoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation [priesthood revelation]. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world. We get our truth and light line upon line and precept upon precept (2 Ne. 28:30; Isa. 28:9-10; D&C 98:11-12; 128:21). We have now had added a new flood of intelligence and light on this particular subject, and it erases all the darkness and all the views and all the thoughts of the past. They don’t matter anymore.” - Bruce R. McConkie
ereves
captain of 100
 
Posts: 171
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:19 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Spiritual/Religious Secret Combinations

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests