Even the very elect will be deceived....

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Even the very elect will be deceived....

Postby PunaGabe » Mon Sep 30, 2013 12:09 am

Well brothers and sisters, who are the very elect? Thoughts?
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Even the very elect will be deceived....

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Re: Even the very elect will be deceived....

Postby TZONE » Mon Sep 30, 2013 12:22 am

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.


[3] What is meant by election? Who are the elect of God? To what have they been elected? And why?

Election is akin to and synonymous with calling, and in a general sense the elect comprise the whole house of Israel. (Isa 45:4; 65:9.) Jesus and Paul and Peter speak of the elect as the saints, as the faithful believers, as those who love the Lord and are seeking righteousness. (Mt 24:22; Mk 13:20; Lk 18:7; Col 3:12; 2 Tim 2:10; Titus 1:1.) And the Lord in our day has promised to gather and save his elect. (D&C 29:7; 33:6; 35:20.) Paul speaks of the elect along with the called, setting forth that they are foreordained to be like Christ, that their conduct here is justified, and that they shall be glorified hereafter. (Rom 8:28-30.) Peter specifies that their high status is "according to the foreknowledge of God the Father" (1 Pet 1:2), and Isaiah assures us that great blessings shall flow to them during the Millennial Era. (Isa 65:22.)

But in the most express and proper usage of the terms, "The elect of God comprise a very select group, an inner circle of faithful members of the Church.... They are the portion of church members who are striving with all their hearts to keep the fulness of the gospel law in this life so that they can become inheritors of the fulness of the gospel rewards in the life to come.

"As far as the male sex is concerned, they are the ones, the Lord says, who have the Melchizedek Priesthood conferred upon them and who thereafter magnify their callings and are sanctified by the Spirit. In this way, 'They become the sons of Moses and of Aaron and the seed of Abraham, and the church and kingdom, and the elect of God.' " (Mormon Doctrine, 2nd ed., 217.) See Commentary 2: 267-269, 271-278, 283-285.


http://emp.byui.edu/marrottr/CallElectSurJSBRMc.htm
101:38 And seek the face of the Lord always, that in patience ye may possess your souls, and ye shall have eternal life.
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Re: Even the very elect will be deceived....

Postby SpeedRacer » Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:43 am

I think the 1st 3 words might have something to say about the very elect.
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Re: Even the very elect will be deceived....

Postby kathyn » Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:24 pm

It doesn't say the elect will be deceived, just that things will be so bad that IF it were possible, the elect would be deceived. That changes the whole meaning.
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Re: Even the very elect will be deceived....

Postby Philadelphiaangel » Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:34 pm

I think one of the ways a person can determine if they are elect or not is by getting a patriarchal blessing. Patriarchs are well known for letting people know if they are elect. However, this isn't always the case but at least if a patriarchal blessing tells a person they are elect then they can know this for sure.
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Re: Even the very elect will be deceived....

Postby lemuel » Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:33 pm

Philadelphiaangel wrote:I think one of the ways a person can determine if they are elect or not is by getting a patriarchal blessing. Patriarchs are well known for letting people know if they are elect. However, this isn't always the case but at least if a patriarchal blessing tells a person they are elect then they can know this for sure.


My blessing didn't say I was elect, as far as I know... :(( :(( =(( :-W :-S
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Re: Even the very elect will be deceived....

Postby dauser » Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:36 pm

In the Premortal world a third of our siblings had a problem with forcing people to be good....and they were denied bodies...because they could not handle power and had to be limited.

In this Telestial world many of our siblings have a problem with unrighteous dominion and they are denied priesthood...because they cannot handle power and have to be limited. (D&C 121:37)

Most people cannot handle power...and therefore cannot be given godhood.

If they can legally and anonymously force their neighbors to do things... they will force their neighbors to do things.

They will use government to take advantage of their neighbors and gift themselves education, health care, lunch, money, insurance etc....because they can...and will not control themselves... with other people's property.

If they were made Gods they would immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion on their subjects, because they can...they will not control themselves therefore they cannot be trusted with power...and they must be restrained and limited.

God gives us government to test our judgment...how we use government will determine if we are numbered with the just or the unjust.

The righteous will always use government (power) to prevent evil, the wicked will always use power (government) to protect evil...and get gain.

The elect are deceived into thinking that evil is ok, if it is practiced by large numbers of people, it is legal, no one gets caught, and no one gets punished. Down the Soul destroying road of socialism they go...with their temple recommend in their wallet/purse.
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Re: Even the very elect will be deceived....

Postby ajax » Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:50 pm

dauser wrote:The righteous will always use government (power) to prevent evil...


Not too sure about this. LOTS of evil can be done in the prevention of said evil.
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Re: Even the very elect will be deceived....

Postby freedomforall » Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:32 pm

PunaGabe wrote:Well brothers and sisters, who are the very elect? Thoughts?


D&C 29:7 (7–8)
7 And ye are called to bring to pass the gathering of mine elect; for mine elect hear my voice and harden not their hearts;
8 Wherefore the decree hath gone forth from the Father that they shall be gathered in unto one place upon the face of this land, to prepare their hearts and be prepared in all things against the day when tribulation and desolation are sent forth upon the wicked.
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Re: Even the very elect will be deceived....

Postby laronius » Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:49 pm

If you read the Joseph Smith - Matthew version it states "...if possible, they shall deceive the very elect, who are elect according to the covenant." Then the following verse starts "Behold, I speak these things unto you for the elect's sake..." What follows is the counsel the Lord gives the elect to help them avoid deception with 37 being a key verse "And whoso treasureth up my word, shall not be decieved..."

So the elect are those who become so by making covenants and they remain the elect by treasuring up the words of God. If you look in the triple combo index under "elect" there are other verses that say things such as the scriptures and the Holy Ghost are given to help the elect avoid deception. So in other words, keep hold of the iron rod and the mists of darkness will not overpower you.
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Re: Even the very elect will be deceived....

Postby golddigger142 » Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:57 pm

keep hold of the iron rod and the mists of darkness will not overpower you.


This is the key - the iron rod. The iron rod includes the spoken and written words of Christ and his servants (ancient and current) as well as the whisperings and commandments to one directly from the Holy Ghost.
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Re: Even the very elect will be deceived....

Postby TZONE » Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:58 pm

Elect have been sealed in their foreheads. They have entered into the rest of God and received knowledge.

As the quote above I quoted "are sanctified by the Spirit".
101:38 And seek the face of the Lord always, that in patience ye may possess your souls, and ye shall have eternal life.
Luke 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division
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Re: Even the very elect will be deceived....

Postby SkyBird » Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:31 pm

I believe the elect come from any religion or race...

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
(New Testament | Matthew 7:21 - 23)

Where does "will" come from...? It comes from "within us" ... the only place "will" is revealed. So the "will of my Father" would be those attributes that are born from within and manifest without that makes Him a God of divine nature personified.

In the inspired version it says "ye never knew me".... so the elect as I read it are those who personally know the Lord... as in a "face to face" relationship which involves as Paul said, the circumcision of the heart.

"In whom also ye are circumcised (baptized) with the circumcision (baptism) made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision (baptism) of Christ:
(New Testament | Colossians 2:11)

"For he is not a Jew, (a Mormon or it doesn't matter what religion or race) which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, (a Mormon or it doesn't matter what religion or race) which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
(New Testament | Romans 2:28 - 29)


Even Moses understood this principle:

"And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 30:6)

Jeremiah understood this principle:

"Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.
(Old Testament | Jeremiah 4:4)

The elect understand the circumcision of the heart....
Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law (Romans 13:9-10).

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Re: Even the very elect will be deceived....

Postby PunaGabe » Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:04 pm

Right on thanks everyone! Its always nice to here different points of views.
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Re: Even the very elect will be deceived....

Postby Philadelphiaangel » Fri Nov 22, 2013 4:28 pm

I think there are a lot of people, mainly in the Church though because being elect is related to Church covenants and ordinances. I also think that the reason why the elect are deceived is because sin falls on all of us, except Jesus Christ. In my mind he is the only being who has never been deceived. Because of this I think all the elect as well as every other person besides Jesus have been deceived at one time or another. I think sometimes people think that this type of deception is something that is either hit or miss but I believe a person can be deceived more than once. I think a lot of deception with the elect is based on short-term factors which can be corrected and in this way it may be alright to be deceived every now and then if a person can make the proper adjustment to get back on the long-run path to eternal life.
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Re: Even the very elect will be deceived....

Postby bobhenstra » Fri Nov 22, 2013 4:45 pm

kathyn wrote:It doesn't say the elect will be deceived, just that things will be so bad that IF it were possible, the elect would be deceived. That changes the whole meaning.


Indeed, key phrase Kathyn! "IF it were possible" (subjunctive clause)!

The elect will not be deceived!

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Re: Even the very elect will be deceived....

Postby Original_Intent » Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:13 pm

bobhenstra wrote:
kathyn wrote:It doesn't say the elect will be deceived, just that things will be so bad that IF it were possible, the elect would be deceived. That changes the whole meaning.


Indeed, key phrase Kathyn! "IF it were possible" (subjunctive clause)!

The elect will not be deceived!

Bob


Amen! I have seen a lot of folks that ignore those first four words that change the meaning entirely!
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Re: Even the very elect will be deceived....

Postby Hannant » Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:27 pm

Elect in any LDS context = "LDS".

Inside that,,and since JST, the elect are those LDS important people and hierarchy who have received the second anointing, in a temple, by a member of the Qof12 Apostles.

In this ceremony, they are anointed AS kings and queens, gods and goddesses, unable to sin anymore as Satan has no ability over them anymore.

This is NOT to be confused with the concept of making ones calling and election sure, as regularly discussed here and in DS threads.

In the second anointing, the women are also given the priesthood and bless their husband.

All GAs, all temple Presidents, probably most temple presidencies, and long serving, stalwart kind of people/ high professionals who are Area Authorities, assistant to, each country has a handful of these.

This is who they are referring to.

Our hope is that we wake up on the first morning of the resurrection of the just and are made as...... , while they get that in this life.

I'm sorry if you don't believe me. I am friends with children of 2 people who have, and heard first hand from another person who has had it.

Church history talks about it, says they did it too often in the late 1800s and reigned it in, then recontinued it some time in the 1900s as a reward mechanism, strengthen members
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Re: Even the very elect will be deceived....

Postby Thomas » Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:46 pm

dauser wrote:In the Premortal world a third of our siblings had a problem with forcing people to be good....and they were denied bodies...because they could not handle power and had to be limited.

In this Telestial world many of our siblings have a problem with unrighteous dominion and they are denied priesthood...because they cannot handle power and have to be limited. (D&C 121:37)

Most people cannot handle power...and therefore cannot be given godhood.

If they can legally and anonymously force their neighbors to do things... they will force their neighbors to do things.

They will use government to take advantage of their neighbors and gift themselves education, health care, lunch, money, insurance etc....because they can...and will not control themselves... with other people's property.

If they were made Gods they would immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion on their subjects, because they can...they will not control themselves therefore they cannot be trusted with power...and they must be restrained and limited.

God gives us government to test our judgment...how we use government will determine if we are numbered with the just or the unjust.

The righteous will always use government (power) to prevent evil, the wicked will always use power (government) to protect evil...and get gain.

The elect are deceived into thinking that evil is ok, if it is practiced by large numbers of people, it is legal, no one gets caught, and no one gets punished. Down the Soul destroying road of socialism they go...with their temple recommend in their wallet/purse.

I get it. You mean Republicans.
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Re: Even the very elect will be deceived....

Postby PunaGabe » Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:16 am

Thomas wrote:
dauser wrote:In the Premortal world a third of our siblings had a problem with forcing people to be good....and they were denied bodies...because they could not handle power and had to be limited.

In this Telestial world many of our siblings have a problem with unrighteous dominion and they are denied priesthood...because they cannot handle power and have to be limited. (D&C 121:37)

Most people cannot handle power...and therefore cannot be given godhood.

If they can legally and anonymously force their neighbors to do things... they will force their neighbors to do things.

They will use government to take advantage of their neighbors and gift themselves education, health care, lunch, money, insurance etc....because they can...and will not control themselves... with other people's property.

If they were made Gods they would immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion on their subjects, because they can...they will not control themselves therefore they cannot be trusted with power...and they must be restrained and limited.

God gives us government to test our judgment...how we use government will determine if we are numbered with the just or the unjust.

The righteous will always use government (power) to prevent evil, the wicked will always use power (government) to protect evil...and get gain.

The elect are deceived into thinking that evil is ok, if it is practiced by large numbers of people, it is legal, no one gets caught, and no one gets punished. Down the Soul destroying road of socialism they go...with their temple recommend in their wallet/purse.

I get it. You mean Republicans.

HaHa I think Satan controls both parties! :D
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Re: Even the very elect will be deceived....

Postby keep the faith » Sun Nov 24, 2013 10:56 am

laronius wrote:If you read the Joseph Smith - Matthew version it states "...if possible, they shall deceive the very elect, who are elect according to the covenant." Then the following verse starts "Behold, I speak these things unto you for the elect's sake..." What follows is the counsel the Lord gives the elect to help them avoid deception with 37 being a key verse "And whoso treasureth up my word, shall not be decieved..."

So the elect are those who become so by making covenants and they remain the elect by treasuring up the words of God. If you look in the triple combo index under "elect" there are other verses that say things such as the scriptures and the Holy Ghost are given to help the elect avoid deception. So in other words, keep hold of the iron rod and the mists of darkness will not overpower you.


Wonderfully expressed laronius. This song below sums it up for me. The elect are filled with Charity..

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BHLoh5LoiJ ... HLoh5LoiJ4
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Re: Even the very elect will be deceived....

Postby freedomforall » Sun Nov 24, 2013 4:44 pm

kathyn wrote:It doesn't say the elect will be deceived, just that things will be so bad that IF it were possible, the elect would be deceived. That changes the whole meaning.

And if the elect decide one day to go opposite of what God wants, they are no longer the elect. The elect always want their actions to be pleasing to God in all that they do. In short they strive to see eye to eye with God, and don't expect God to condone any wrong doing. This is where repentance comes in. ;)
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REALITY...IS NOTHING MORE THAN FANTASY IN ACTION
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Re: Even the very elect will be deceived....

Postby freedomforall » Sun Nov 24, 2013 4:55 pm

lemuel wrote:
Philadelphiaangel wrote:I think one of the ways a person can determine if they are elect or not is by getting a patriarchal blessing. Patriarchs are well known for letting people know if they are elect. However, this isn't always the case but at least if a patriarchal blessing tells a person they are elect then they can know this for sure.


My blessing didn't say I was elect, as far as I know... :(( :(( =(( :-W :-S

Do you want to know if you are among the elect? Here is one way.

2 Nephi 32:9
9 But behold, I say unto you that ye must pray always, and not faint; that ye must not perform any thing unto the Lord save in the first place ye shall pray unto the Father in the name of Christ, that he will consecrate thy performance unto thee, that thy performance may be for the welfare of thy soul.

Now if the elect would follow this counsel they wouldn't go far off of the path.
I mean, for instance, could anyone vote for the lesser of two evils if they were to pray and ask God to consecrate that performance unto them for the welfare of their soul?
Could they cheat a neighbor? Could they look at porno? Could they knowingly break God's commandments and have that consecrated to their welfare? See what I'm saying here?

The elect are concerned as to what God is thinking and how He would react to wrong doing.
HOPE...IS THE DESIRE OF FAITHFUL PEOPLE, COUPLED WITH THE FULL EXPECTATION OF ACHIEVING ETERNAL SALVATION IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD.....DAVID A CHRISTENSEN

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Re: Even the very elect will be deceived....

Postby Bee Prepared » Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:31 pm

Let God speak for Himself by His Word.

Matt. 24:24, "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."
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Re: Even the very elect will be deceived....

Postby freedomforall » Sun Nov 24, 2013 6:16 pm

Bee Prepared wrote:Let God speak for Himself by His Word.

Matt. 24:24, "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

What are some of the teachings of a false prophet?
Using scripture how is a false prophet detected?
What causes a person to become a false prophet?
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REALITY...IS NOTHING MORE THAN FANTASY IN ACTION
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Re: Even the very elect will be deceived....

Postby Bee Prepared » Sun Nov 24, 2013 8:13 pm

Towards the end of the Savior’s earthly ministry, His disciples came to Him with several questions concerning the future: “Tell us … what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?”

Jesus responded: “Take heed that no man deceive you.

“For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: … and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows” (Matt. 24:3–8).

“And they shall turn away their ears from the truth” (2 Tim. 4:3–4).

Brothers and sisters, the exact time of the Second Coming is known only to the Father (see Matt. 24:36). There are, however, signs that scriptural prophecy relating to that tumultuous day is being fulfilled. Jesus cautioned several times that prior to His Second Coming, “many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many” (Matt. 24:11). As Apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ, it is our duty to be watchmen on the tower, warning Church members to beware of false prophets and false teachers who lie in wait to ensnare and destroy faith and testimony. Today we warn you that there are false prophets and false teachers arising; and if we are not careful, even those who are among the faithful members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will fall victim to their deception.

M. Russell Ballard

Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles
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Re: Even the very elect will be deceived....

Postby freedomforall » Sun Nov 24, 2013 10:18 pm

Bee Prepared wrote:Towards the end of the Savior’s earthly ministry, His disciples came to Him with several questions concerning the future: “Tell us … what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?”

Jesus responded: “Take heed that no man deceive you.

“For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: … and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows” (Matt. 24:3–8).

“And they shall turn away their ears from the truth” (2 Tim. 4:3–4).

Brothers and sisters, the exact time of the Second Coming is known only to the Father (see Matt. 24:36). There are, however, signs that scriptural prophecy relating to that tumultuous day is being fulfilled. Jesus cautioned several times that prior to His Second Coming, “many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many” (Matt. 24:11). As Apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ, it is our duty to be watchmen on the tower, warning Church members to beware of false prophets and false teachers who lie in wait to ensnare and destroy faith and testimony. Today we warn you that there are false prophets and false teachers arising; and if we are not careful, even those who are among the faithful members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will fall victim to their deception.

M. Russell Ballard

Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

What is a false teacher, and where are some of the places they can be detected?
HOPE...IS THE DESIRE OF FAITHFUL PEOPLE, COUPLED WITH THE FULL EXPECTATION OF ACHIEVING ETERNAL SALVATION IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD.....DAVID A CHRISTENSEN

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Re: Even the very elect will be deceived....

Postby Bee Prepared » Mon Nov 25, 2013 9:40 am

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world," (1 John 4:1).

I believe we all need to adhere to the Scriptures and to grow in our relationship with Jesus Christ.
One of the great powers of the Holy Ghost is to confirm that which is true, and we come to know the truth through study, faith, prayer, and the sincere desire for truth.
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Re: Even the very elect will be deceived....

Postby keep the faith » Mon Nov 25, 2013 9:59 am

freedomforall wrote:
Bee Prepared wrote:Towards the end of the Savior’s earthly ministry, His disciples came to Him with several questions concerning the future: “Tell us … what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?”

Jesus responded: “Take heed that no man deceive you.

“For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: … and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows” (Matt. 24:3–8).

“And they shall turn away their ears from the truth” (2 Tim. 4:3–4).

Brothers and sisters, the exact time of the Second Coming is known only to the Father (see Matt. 24:36). There are, however, signs that scriptural prophecy relating to that tumultuous day is being fulfilled. Jesus cautioned several times that prior to His Second Coming, “many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many” (Matt. 24:11). As Apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ, it is our duty to be watchmen on the tower, warning Church members to beware of false prophets and false teachers who lie in wait to ensnare and destroy faith and testimony. Today we warn you that there are false prophets and false teachers arising; and if we are not careful, even those who are among the faithful members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will fall victim to their deception.

M. Russell Ballard

Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

What is a false teacher, and where are some of the places they can be detected?



Easy answer ffa.

“We can accept nothing as authoritative but that which comes directly through the appointed channel, the constituted organizations of the Priesthood, which is the channel that God has appointed through which to make known His mind and will to the world. … And the moment that individuals look to any other source, that moment they throw themselves open to the seductive influences of Satan, and render themselves liable to become servants of the devil; they lose sight of the true order through which the blessings of the Priesthood are to be enjoyed; they step outside of the pale of the kingdom of God, and are on dangerous ground. Whenever you see a man rise up claiming to have received direct revelation from the Lord to the Church, independent of the order and channel of the Priesthood, you may set him down as an imposter” (Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed. [1939], 41–42).

As to the second part of your question, Internet forums are a good place to start looking. ;)
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Re: Even the very elect will be deceived....

Postby ajax » Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:26 am

keep the faith wrote:
freedomforall wrote:What is a false teacher, and where are some of the places they can be detected?



Easy answer ffa.

“We can accept nothing as authoritative but that which comes directly through the appointed channel, the constituted organizations of the Priesthood, [you are setting up an idol my friend] which is the channel that God has appointed through which to make known His mind and will to the world. … And the moment that individuals look to any other source [like the scriptures? the dispensation head?] , that moment they throw themselves open to the seductive influences of Satan, and render themselves liable to become servants of the devil;


Yep, the scriptures, especially the BoM is chopped liver in comparison. Even though God himself called it the new covenant which the church (the leaders as well as membership) was condemned for ignoring.

But maybe you're right, maybe I just need to study the words of a magazine twice a year. Since I certainly can't figure out what the scriptures mean or say, my leaders will tell me which parts are important. I will ignore the rest. Hallelujah!

drip...drip...drip...
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