Did Joseph say this???

[Elizabeth]

"We will establish our religion by the sword. We will trample down our enemies and make it one gore of blood from the Rocky Mountains to the Atlantic Ocean. I will be to this generation a second Mohamed whose motto in treating for peace was "The Qur'an or the sword" So it shall be with us." Joseph Smith, Oct. 14, 1938.

[Elizabeth]

Hurry up guys, I need an answer LOL

[gilgal]

In searching Gospelink I found the following quote. It looks like Thomas B. Marsh claimed Joseph said this after Thomas had apostatized from the church. This is from Essentials in Church History by Joseph Fielding Smith:

Apostasy of Thomas B. Marsh.—Thomas B. Marsh, President of the council of the Twelve Apostles, suddenly left Far West in October 1838, and went to Richmond in an ugly mood. He had been offended over a trivial matter and thereupon left the Church and made false accusations against his former brethren. Orson Hyde, in the same spirit, followed him on the 18th of October. On the 24th, Marsh went before Henry Jacobs, justice of the peace at Richmond, and made an affidavit the gist of which is as follows:

"They have among them a company, considered true 'Mormons,' called the Danites, who have taken an oath to support the heads of the Church in all things that they say or do, whether right or wrong. Many, however, of this band are much dissatisfied with this oath, as being against moral and religious principles. On Saturday last, I am informed by the 'Mormons,' that they had a meeting at Far West at which they appointed a company of twelve, by the name of the 'Destruction Company,' for the purpose of burning and destroying, and that if the people of Buncombe came to do mischief upon the people of Caldwell, and committed depredations upon the 'Mormons,' they were to burn Buncombe; and if the people of Clay and Ray made any movement against them, this destroying company were to burn Liberty and Richmond. * * * The Prophet inculcates the notion, and it is believed by every true 'Mormon,' that Smith's prophecies are superior to the laws of the land. I have heard the Prophet say that he would yet tread down his enemies, and walk over their dead bodies; and if he was not let alone, he would be a second Mohammed to this generation, and that he would make it one gore of blood from the Rocky Mountains to the Atlantic Ocean; that like Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was, 'the Alcoran or the Sword,' so should it be eventually with us, 'Joseph Smith or the Sword.' These last statements were made during the last summer. The number of armed men at Adam-ondi-Ahman was between three and four hundred.

"THOMAS B. MARSH."

"Sworn to and subscribed before me, the day herein written.

"HENRY JACOBS, J. P.,

"Ray County, Missouri."

"Richmond, Missouri, October 24, 1838."

"Affidavit of Orson Hyde"

"The most of the statements in the foregoing disclosure I know to be true; the remainder I believe to be true. "ORSON HYDE."

"Richmond, October 24, 1838."

"Sworn to and subscribed before me, on the day above written.

"HENRY JACOBS, J. P."


(Joseph Fielding Smith, Essentials in Church History [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1950], 188.)

[firend]

I found this from a book:


http://books.google.com/books?id=0DQaTU ... 8.&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[kathyn]

David Marsh was ex'ed and not happy with Joseph Smith. I don't think I"ll take his word for this.

[singyourwayhome]

I found this from a book:


http://books.google.com/books?id=0DQaTU ... 8.&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yeah, about that...
The book's title is "Under the Banner of Heaven: A Story of Violent Faith". The book description reads

Jon Krakauer’s literary reputation rests on insightful chronicles of lives conducted at the outer limits. He now shifts his focus from extremes of physical adventure to extremes of religious belief within our own borders, taking readers inside isolated American communities where some 40,000 Mormon Fundamentalists still practice polygamy. Defying both civil authorities and the Mormon establishment in Salt Lake City, the renegade leaders of these Taliban-like theocracies are zealots who answer only to God.

At the core of Krakauer’s book are brothers Ron and Dan Lafferty, who insist they received a commandment from God to kill a blameless woman and her baby girl. Beginning with a meticulously researched account of this appalling double murder, Krakauer constructs a multi-layered, bone-chilling narrative of messianic delusion, polygamy, savage violence, and unyielding faith. Along the way he uncovers a shadowy offshoot of America’s fastest growing religion, and raises provocative questions about the nature of religious belief.

So, a book blaming the Lafferty murders on the LDS faith and history is what you're quoting from. The same quote is found in Fawn Brodie's book, "No Man Knows My History". If you'll remember, Hugh Nibley wrote a booklet in response to that, "No Ma'am, That's Not History" (you can read it online here: http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... pts/?id=47 )

When I looked for the source of the quote, I also found that it was from Thomas B. Marsh's time as an apostate. He later returned and apologized. This source is from FAIR, but corroborated by a previous poster... http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/N ... ohammad%22

[firend]

I found this from a book:


http://books.google.com/books?id=0DQaTU ... 8.&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yeah, about that...
The book's title is "Under the Banner of Heaven: A Story of Violent Faith". The book description reads

Jon Krakauer’s literary reputation rests on insightful chronicles of lives conducted at the outer limits. He now shifts his focus from extremes of physical adventure to extremes of religious belief within our own borders, taking readers inside isolated American communities where some 40,000 Mormon Fundamentalists still practice polygamy. Defying both civil authorities and the Mormon establishment in Salt Lake City, the renegade leaders of these Taliban-like theocracies are zealots who answer only to God.

At the core of Krakauer’s book are brothers Ron and Dan Lafferty, who insist they received a commandment from God to kill a blameless woman and her baby girl. Beginning with a meticulously researched account of this appalling double murder, Krakauer constructs a multi-layered, bone-chilling narrative of messianic delusion, polygamy, savage violence, and unyielding faith. Along the way he uncovers a shadowy offshoot of America’s fastest growing religion, and raises provocative questions about the nature of religious belief.

So, a book blaming the Lafferty murders on the LDS faith and history is what you're quoting from. The same quote is found in Fawn Brodie's book, "No Man Knows My History". If you'll remember, Hugh Nibley wrote a booklet in response to that, "No Ma'am, That's Not History" (you can read it online here: http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... pts/?id=47 )

When I looked for the source of the quote, I also found that it was from Thomas B. Marsh's time as an apostate. He later returned and apologized. This source is from FAIR, but corroborated by a previous poster... http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/N ... ohammad%22

Thanks for that. I am not familiar with that book. The author of the thread wanted a fast answer lol. So I googled it and slapped it on here. I usually am more careful @-)

[Elizabeth]

Thanks to all

[iamse7en]

Depends on if you believe Thomas Marsh's affidavit. Orson Hyde said his affidavit was true, though he regretted this later. There could be merit to the claim. There is also this account:

Soon after the dissenters were driven away from Caldwell county, I was in Far-West, in Corill’s [Corrill's] store, perhaps the last of June last, and heard Joseph Smith, jun., say, that he believed Mahomet was an inspired man, and had done a great deal of good, and that he intended to take the same course Mahomet did; that if the people would let him alone, he would, after a while, die a natural death; but if they did not, he would make it one gore of blood from the Rocky Mountains to the State of Maine. (Testimony of George Walter, in James H. Hunt, Mormonism: Embracing the Origin, Rise and Progress of the Sect, with an Examination of the Book of Mormon)

Who knows. Joseph very well could have said such a thing. Every knee shall bow eventually. In reality, you could say it's Mormonism or the Fire. Everyone will have to embrace it eventually. Those that don't embrace a portion of its principles sufficiently will be burned at his coming.

[Fairminded]

Not sure about that quote in particular, but as I understand it many of the things he said in his grand Nauvoo parade speech were pretty fiery. Although it's a question of how much of it was meant to come to pass, since the decisions of the Saints and Joseph himself turned the Lord's will to a different path for the Church.

[JohnnyL]

Depends on if you believe Thomas Marsh's affidavit. Orson Hyde said his affidavit was true, though he regretted this later. There could be merit to the claim. There is also this account:

Soon after the dissenters were driven away from Caldwell county, I was in Far-West, in Corill’s [Corrill's] store, perhaps the last of June last, and heard Joseph Smith, jun., say, that he believed Mahomet was an inspired man, and had done a great deal of good, and that he intended to take the same course Mahomet did; that if the people would let him alone, he would, after a while, die a natural death; but if they did not, he would make it one gore of blood from the Rocky Mountains to the State of Maine. (Testimony of George Walter, in James H. Hunt, Mormonism: Embracing the Origin, Rise and Progress of the Sect, with an Examination of the Book of Mormon)

I have no idea whether he said it or not, but...
Isn't that what the Civil War did?

[Elizabeth]

From follow up research I have personally come to the conclusion that Joseph did not say anything of the kind. The source of what I now believe is a false quote, is Thomas B. Marsh, an apostate former president of the Quorum of the Twelve. In 1838, Marsh swore an affidavit in which he claimed to have heard Joseph Smith say:"he would yet tread down his enemies, and walk over their dead bodies; and if he was not let alone, he would be a second Mohammed to this generation, and that it would be one gore of blood from the Rocky Mountains to the Atlantic Ocean; that like Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was, 'the Alcoran or the Sword,' so should it be eventually with us" Marsh later repented and returned to the Church.

[Elizabeth]

Thanks to Dennis for the following information which supports my conclusion above

Thomas Baldwin Marsh

Although not yet sixty years of age, Thomas B. Marsh looked very old and feeble when he came to Utah in 1857. He was broken in body, mind, and spirit—a condition he attributed to his apostasy from the Church in Missouri nineteen years before. “If any of you want to see the effects of apostasy,” he said, “look upon me.”[1] His wife, Elizabeth Godkin, was dead; his friends and family had deserted him; his health and wealth were gone; and he agonized over the knowledge that he had rejected and had sought to destroy the true Church of Jesus Christ.


In a letter to President Young, he appealed for readmission to the Church. ‘“I have Sinned Against Heaven, and Am Unworthy of Your Confidence, But I Cannot Live without a Reconciliation’
Brigham Young, who had served as an apostle under Brother Marsh, the first president of the Quorum of the Twelve, replied, “Let him be baptized and confirmed and then come to the Valleys.”[2] Two days after Thomas’s arrival in Salt Lake City, President Young invited him to address the Sunday morning gathering of the Saints. Freely confessing the error of his actions, he explained, “I was blinded and thought I saw a beam in brother Joseph’s eye, but it was nothing but a mote, and my own eye was filled with the beam.”[3] He warned the Saints against feeling too secure in their positions in the Church and used himself as an example of how fast and far one could fall if he gave way to the spirit of the adversary. After Brother Marsh’s address, President Young called for a vote to receive him into fellowship. The proposal was carried unanimously.

As a young man, Thomas Marsh became discouraged with the churches of the world and almost lost hope of finding the truth. But through the spirit of prophecy he received the assurance that a new church would soon rise, possessing the gospel in its purity. He heard of Joseph Smith’s “golden Bible” while traveling near Palmyra and immediately investigated. At E. B. Grandin’s printing office, Thomas met Martin Harris and obtained a few pages of the Book of Mormon, which he eagerly studied. Baptized a few weeks later, he became a devoted missionary, laboring in Canada and in many of the United States.

After his call to the Quorum of the Twelve in 1835 and during the persecutions and trials of the Church in the fall of 1838, Brother Marsh became agitated over small matters, and bitterness filled his soul to the extent that he joined the opposition in promoting lies and slander against the Saints. The word of one who had been so high in the leadership of the Church was given great credibility and intensified the violence against the Saints.

The last nine years of Thomas Marsh’s life were spent in the Salt Lake Valley, where he was reordained to the office of high priest and was cared for by his fellow Saints. In the Ogden cemetery a small monument bears the words, “Thomas B. Marsh, First President of the Twelve Apostles . . . Erected by his friends.”