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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

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BrianM wrote:Thanks for joining the discussion Rod. I like the information you present, especially because it fits with the fact that the Book of Mormon prophecies about the land fit with the United States. And because I believe Joseph Smith is a prophet and that he taught this as well.

Yes, a big AMEN to this!

I am so glad you have joined us, Rod; welcome! And please stick around and post often! :)
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

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Welcome, Rod. Thank you for all your input so far.
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

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A comparison of Book of Mormon theory land sizes. FYI

The Mesoamerican Models almost fit within an area covering about the size of the southern half of the state of Utah.
The Heartland Model, while still considered a limited geography model, is nearly 10x the land size of that of Mesoamerican theories.

It is interesting the Mesoamerica theory promoters point out the large populations that existed in this very tiny geographical space. Yet the recently fired FARMS Review editors from the Church's BYU Maxwell Institute also claim that the Maya were not the Nephites and the Nephites were not the Maya. So not only were the Maya's millions sandwiched in this little area, so to were the Nephites...and the Lamanites...yet it is interesting to note that neither the Maya nor the Nephites (both of which had written records) happened to have mentioned each other in their records. Now that is truly miraculous, wouldn't you agree?

So the Nephites had their own system of government (kings, judges, etc) and the even more numerous Lamanites were busy wandering about in the wilderness, hunting beasts that migrated from the land northward (Alma 22:31, Enos 1:20 and FYI, there are NO migrating animals in Mesoamerica, only in North America), and then we also have the Maya with their kings etc., and all three of these populous civilizations were crammed into a space smaller than the total land area of the state of Utah for upwards of 1,000 years? Really? Does anyone else see the difficulty with this?

Oh, and the Lamanites were eating "nothing save it was raw meat" (Enos 1:20) which would require a very large supply of monkeys and/or iguanas to feed that huge population of Lamanites (opps, Iguanas are "unclean" reptiles so Hebrews were not likely to be eating them, guess its back to monkeys and few tapirs..dang, they are unclean too!) as they wandered around an area the size of Utah, but they didn't happen to accidentally run into either the huge Nephite populations or the even larger populations of Maya that lived in this area in their wanderings...if we are to believe the Mesoamerican models. Anyone see the problem here? or is it just me... :-?
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

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Okay, Rod, you convinced me (not that I was UNconvinced in the first place. The visions of the future that Nephi had and other things in the Book of Mormon fit the United States. We had a revolutionary war and our "mother gentiles" were gathered against us. We had no kings (dictators count). We were a free land. The Book of Mormon was translated here. And so on and so forth.
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

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I can't get around the narrow neck of land problem with the North American model. Rod, can you give me a definite idea of where you think the Nephites and Lamanites were located in North America? Are you going with the narrow neck of land through the great lakes?

That doesn't make much sense to me because of the limitations on land use. First of all, the Jaradites were supposed to have inhabited the land northward, but why would they have settled in Canada when they had the rest of the continent available to them. Before modern technology, that climate was harsh, harsh, harsh. Most children didn't live to adulthood.

It just makes more sense to me that the narrow neck was the panama canal neck, the land northward all of North America and the land southward all of South America. I mean, the natives were covering all that land when the white men came on the scene, weren't they?

I know my ideas don't fit all the clues specifically, but I don't know that anything has conclusively proven them wrong either. Joseph Smith's quotes just don't pin it down specifically. The Book of Mormon prophesies could be talking about a different part of "this land." The whole grapes and iguanas problems don't seem too difficult to get around. I mean, they could have been eating different things and called them the same thing as what they were used to, couldn't they? And I'm sure there are more than just monkeys to eat in South America that would fit the law of Moses (if the Lamanites were even keeping the law).

So anyway, interesting conversation, but no one has yet convinced me beyond doubt that the land of the Nephites was anywhere other than the upper part of South America. It just seems that the important aspects of geography have to get stretched out of proportion to meet any other place.

And I still think it's just for fun. I'm not going to get confused about the prophesies of the United States just because I think the Nephites lived in South America.
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

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Another problem with N. America is the mountain range that is described in the BOM that runs from east to west from one sea to the other. There is only one mountain range that fits that description and is found in Central America. The only other range that runs from east to west in all of the Americas is the Uintah Range, but that doesn't go from one sea to the other. Another discrepency of the N. American theory is the tribe of indians called the Anasazi. That title or racial slur, as the Hopi tribes consider it to be, was given to the Hopi's ancestors by their arch enemies, the tribes of indians found to the south of New Mexico and Utah. The title Anasazi means ancient ones or ancient enemy. The Hopi tribes were considered to be a lighter skinned race and were always under threat of extermination by the southern tribes. Sound familiar? The Hopi ceremonies also mimic jewish rituals and cermonies practiced in ancient Israel. The Cherokee tribes are also similar in their ceremonies and also have lighter skin colors. Another tribe found in the southern U.S who were known to be Anasazi as well, found in the S. Colorado area have a tradition handed down saying they migrated to the North in boats and ended up in S. Colorado and were known as the Water tribes of the Hopi or Anaszai. I think Mormon was familiar with these areas as he traveled back to Zarahemla with his father when he was @ 11 years old, after he had received his commision from Ammaron somewhere up north. After he refused to lead the Nephites, he probably went back up to the north and Moroni was born, which would be why Moroni was familiar with the land northward (as was his father Mormon) and eventually hid the plates in the location of Cumorah in NY(the place Mormon requested to the King of the Lamanites as there final defensive position). Another factoid that I should mention is the appearance of the petroglyphs of a certain figure named Kokopelli, which began to be carved into the rocks of the Southern US @400 AD - 1000 AD. Kokopelli was a figure who played a type of flute or a trumpet and had a humped back. He is always carved next to the symbols of the serpant which is a representation of Christ and sometimes carved with two horns on his head representing an authority or power which he held. I believe he is Moroni who traveled/wandered mostly in N. America to escape the wrath of the Lamanites and to protect his precious cargo carried on his back, hence the humped back shape of the petroglyph. It was said that during one of the jouneys of the early saints, and I can't recall who, I think it was David Whitmer or his wife or both said they saw an older pleasant looking man walking on the side of the road one day carrying something heavy on his back. They stopped and offered him a ride but he pleasantly denied the invitation for a ride saying he was headed for Cumorah. The Whitmers I think it was, went on there way not thinking anything of it at the time, but later told the story to the Prophet Joseph Smith. Joseph told them that they had passed Moroni taking the plates to hide them up again as the translation had just finished. I told this story to only prove that Moroni carried the plates around in some sort of pack as the petroglyphs of Kokopelli depict. I don't think however that Moroni's wanderings were just some sort of aimless meandering. He went about with a purpose. He was in Utah as he had dedicated the ground for the Manti temple to be built at a later date. I think he might have dedicated other temple sites as well, but not only that, are the traditions among the Hopi that Kokopelli was a spiritual teacher and signaled the people by playing his flute, making it known he was in the area and was going to teach them the gospel that night. It was done at night because all these people were in hiding from the tribes to the south. So anyway, I believe that both the theories of the South and the North have truth to them. They landed in the south and eventually went north, covering both lands, and then in the end were driven northward until the final battle of extermination was fought. Hence the discovery of Zelph and buildings throughout N. and S. America.
Kokopelli.jpg
Kokopelli petroglyph NM.jpg
Kokopelli Moroni.jpg
Last edited by Benjamin Harrison on Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

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Interesting points re: Kokopelli :)
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

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I think it was David Whitmer or his wife or both said they saw an older pleasant looking man walking on the side of the road one day carrying something heavy on his back. They stopped and offered him a ride but he pleasantly denied the invitation for a ride saying he was headed for Cumorah.

I read this story, but I think the person was identified as one of the three nephite apostles that remained.
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

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I read it in a book called "Plates of Gold" by Matthew B. Brown, and also the book "Beloved Emma" by Lori Woodland, who both got the account from Edward Stevenson Diary Church Historical Dept Archives: Here is the acount from David Whitmer: "When I was returnig to Fayette, with Joseph and Oliver-all of us riding in the wagon, Oliver an I on an old-fashioned, wooden spring seat and Joseph behind us- and while we were traveling along in a clear open place, a very pleasant, nice-looking old man suddenly appeared by the side of the wagon and saluted us with, 'Good morning, it is very warm' (at the same time wiping his face or forehead with his hand). We returned the salutation and, by a sign from Joseph, invited him to ride if he was going our way. But he said very pleasantly, 'No, I am going to Cumorah.' This name was something new to me; I did not know what Cumorah meant. We all gazed at him and at each other, and as I looked around inquiringly at Joseph the old man instantly disappeared so that I did not see him again.... He was about 5'8"-9" tall and heavy set.... He was dressed in a suit of brown woolen clothes, his hair and beard were white, like brother Orson Pratt's but his beard was not so heavy. I also remember that he had on his back a sort of knapsack with something in it shaped like a book." Joseph, before this happened, had been concerned with the transportation of the plates, but was told not to worry about them because the Angel Moroni would again take charge of them. After this meeting with the old man, both Oliver and David asked Joseph who the old man was, and Joseph did only tell them it was one of the Nephites taking the Plates, which were in the knapsack, taking them to hide them up again. So I can see were you would think it was one of the three Nephites, but it was Moroni who held the Keys of the Book of Mormon and they were his responsability.
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

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I have read the story in many places as Joseph telling them it was Moroni....for what it is worth...
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

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Rod Meldrum wrote:
Called to Serve wrote:
Oh, and if anyone has Joseph Smith quotes to share, I'd love to read those. I've heard he spoke on the subject.


Here are some quotes from Joseph Smith generally hidden by Mesoamerican promotion organizations because most are first hand accounts of Joseph Smith's writings and actions which support his indisputable understanding of North America as the setting. Beware of second hand and unsigned accounts falsely attributed to Joseph Smith. Follow his actions in order to understand where he KNEW the lands of the Book of Mormon to be.


Good to hear from you again, Rod. I look forward to a conversation with you and hope it will be respectful. We can disagree and still be cordial to each other without contention. Let's leave out name calling, insinuation, condescension, and have a decent discussion.

Actually, groups that you believe to be Mesoamerican (even though FAIR is not) have produced the most comprehensive quotes from Joseph Smith on Book of Mormon geography which contains statements by him which support both a North American setting and Mesoamerican setting for The Book of Mormon. There has been no “hiding” going on at all. You can see these quotes here. You will notice that they is not commentary to try to persuade you one way or the other, only the facts. Do you have such a non-biased list on your website?
http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon ... th_century
Meldrum claims that Joseph Smith *only* supports his theory. While I completely agree that some of Joseph Smith's statements do, not all do. There are numerous which support a Mesoamerican theory and even a hemispheric theory.
As Joseph Smith would come across information on past civilizations, he would draw parallels. Early in his life, these parallels were mainly based in North America and many were based off of Josiah Priest's work "American Antiquities", and after reading Stephens and Catherwoods book "Incidents of Travel in Central America" he drew many parallels between The Book of Mormon and Mesoamerica. He did not entirely teach one or the other.
I think it is necessary to mention that while, it is interesting to learn what Joseph Smith believed, it in no way makes it official doctrine of the Church. The Church has taken a stand that there has never been a revelation on the subject of BOM geography, and any comments on geography are only speculation. This would include statements from Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Joseph F. Smith, or anyone else. John Taylor and Wilford Woodruff were big proponents of a Mesoamerican setting for The Book of Mormon yet their statements wouldn't add any more weight behind the Mesoamerican theory for the same reasons. It could be argued that they were Prophet’s, intimately knew the Prophet Joseph Smith, and therefore their views on Book of Mormon geography should be taken as doctrine. But, if we are to follow the Church’s counsel, then we know that no matter what any past Prophet or Apostle taught on the subject, there is *no doctrine* as to it’s whereabouts.

Since you are all familiar with Joseph Smith statements placing The Book of Mormon in in the "Heartland", I will provide quotes from Joseph Smith which place it outside of that model. It should first be explained that Joseph Smith was the General Editor of the Times and Seasons and took full responsibility of the contents. In March of 1842, Joseph Smith made the announcement and wrote
“This paper commences my editorial career; I alone stand responsible for it, and shall do for all papers having my signature henceforward. I am not responsible for the publication, or arrangement of the former paper; the matter did not come under my supervision.” (Times and Seasons, Volume 3:710)
And at the end of paper, you will find this signature block:


The Times and Seasons,
IS EDITED BY
Joseph Smith
Printed and published about the first and fifteenth
of every month, on the corner of Wa-
ter and Bain Streets, Nauvoo,
Hancock County,
Illinois, by
JOSEPH SMITH
So the statements from the Times and Seasons during his editorialship were approved and published by him. The statements from the Editor (or Ed.) were written by Joseph Smith himself.
In June of 1841, Joseph Smith published under the article “American Antiquities—More Proofs of the Book of Mormon” and speaks of the “Antiquities of Central America, which have been discovered by two eminent travelers who have spent considerable labor, to bring to light the remains of ancient buildings, architecture &c., which prove beyond controversy that, on this vast continent once flourished a mighty people, skilled in the arts and sciences, and whose splendor would not be eclipsed by any of the nations of Antiquity—a people once high and exalted in the scale of intelligence, but now like their ancient buildings, fallen into ruins.” Then the account is given of Stephens and Catherwoods travels and discoveries in Mesoamerica.
In 1842 he said that the “Mexican records agree so well with the words of the book of Ether (found by the people of Limhi…) Traits of the Mosaic History, Found Among the Aztaeca Nations, Times and Seasons, vol. III no. 16 Pg 820
He also taught that “Stephens and Catherwood's researches in Central America abundantly testify of this thing. The stupendous ruins, the elegant sculpture, and the magnificence of the ruins of Guatamala, and other cities, corroborate this statement, and show that a great and mighty people-men of great minds, clear intellect, bright genius, and comprehensive designs inhabited this continent. Their ruins speak of their greatness; the Book of Mormen [Mormon} unfolds their history.” Joseph Smith (editor)," American Antiquities," Times and Seasons 3/18 (15 July 1842): 860
In November 1841, Joseph Smith wrote a letter to Bishop Bernhisel thanking him for a book that he sent him by Stephens and Catherwoods which is written on their expeditions in Mesoamerica. Joseph Smith saw parallels between Mesoamerica and The Book of Mormon and stated that the Book of Mormon "corresponds with & supports the testimony of the Book of Mormon; I have read the volumes with the greatest interest & pleasure & must say that of all histories that have been written pertaining to the antiquities of this country it is the most correct luminous & comprihensive.-…”Joseph Smith, The Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, compiled and edited by Dean C. Jessee (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1984), 501 - 502.
And the list goes on and on…

Other leaders echoed Joseph Smiths teachings of a Mesoamerican setting for The Book of Mormon as well.
Wilford Woodruff said in 1841 “I felt truly interested in this work for it brought to light a flood of testimony in proof of the book of mormon in the discovery & survey of the city Copan in Central America…” Wilford Woodruff, Wilford Woodruff’s Journal, 9 vols., ed., Scott G. Kenny (Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1985), 2:126; journal entry dated 13 Sept 1841
Parley P. Pratt said in 1842 “it is remarkable that Mr. Smith, in translating the Book of Mormon from 1827 to 1830, should mention the names and circumstances of those towns and fortifications in this very section of country, where a Mr Stephens, ten years afterwards, penetrated a dense forest, till then unexplored by modern travellers, and actually fines the ruins of those very cities mentioned by Mormon.” "Ruins in Central America," Millennial Star 2/11 (March 1842): 165.
W.W. Phelps wrote from the article “Discovery of Ancient Ruins in Central America” “We are glad to see the proof begin to come, of the original or ancient inhabitants of this continent. It is good testimony in favor of the book of Mormon, and the book of Mormon is good testimony that such things as cities and civilization, ‘prior to the fourteenth century,’ existed in America” Evening and Morning Star 1/9 (February 1833), pg 71.

Apostle John Page said in 1842 "Let it be distinctly understood that the Prophet Alma uttered this prophecy, not far from Guatemala or Central America, some 82 years before the birth of Christ." John E. Page, "Mormonism Concluded: To 'A Disciple,'" Morning Chronicle, Pittsburgh, 20 July 1842
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

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Rod Meldrum wrote:
Called to Serve wrote:
Oh, and if anyone has Joseph Smith quotes to share, I'd love to read those. I've heard he spoke on the subject.


Where did he send the first missionaries when the Lord commanded him to take the gospel to the "Lamanites"? See D&C 28, 30 and 32 and then read Parley P. Pratt's autobiography...they were sent to Native Americans in North America. Joseph never sent a single missionary "unto the Lamanites" in Meso or South America. Undeniable historical fact.


I have no problem with this statement. We know that the Lamanites began as a familial group, but one could “become” a Lamanite. You cannot gain ancestors, but the term Lamanite began to mean everyone other than a Nephite (Lamanites, Lemuelites, Ishmaelites, Zoramites, were all considered Lamanites). After the coming of the Savior in the New World, they were all one people until there began again to be an apostasy and people took upon themselves the name of Lamanites. “There were no robbers, nor murderers, neither were there Lamanites, nor any manner of -ites; but they were in one the children of Christ, and heirs to the kingdom of God.” (4 Nephi 1:17) Again, a Lamanite meant more of an acceptance of, or denial of certain ideals than to be part of a specific familial line. All one had to do to be a Lamanite was to be the “other” guys. If that is the case, then every single Indian in the Western Hemisphere would be considered a Lamanite. Spencer W. Kimball related something similar when he said:

“The term Lamanite includes all Indians and Indian mixtures, such as the Polynesians, the Guatemalans, the Peruvians, as well as the Sioux, the Apache, the Mohawk, the Navajo, and others. It is a large group of great people.” – Spencer W. Kimball /Ensign July 1971

Notice he gives the name of Lamanite to the Guatemalans of Mesoamerica and the Peruvians of South America?

Steve Olsen, an expert in population genetics, says if you “go back 120 generations, to about the year 1000 B.C. According to the results presented in our Nature paper, your ancestors then included everyone in the world who has descendants living today.” ((See Douglas L. T. Rohde, Steve Olson, and Joseph T. Chang, "Modelling the recent common ancestry of all living humans," 431 Nature (30 September 2004): 562–566)) If we go back another 1600 years, and then only focus on the Americas, we can see that all the people in the Americas are literally descended from Laman, and could be considered Lamanites

Other past leaders have also placed Lamanites in Mesoamerica:
"[T]he Republic of Mexico is made up in the great majority of its citizens of people whom the world calls Indians, but to whom the Latter-day Saints refer as Lamanites,. . ." President Anthony W. Ivins, Conference Report, October 1926.
"There will be a great work accomplished in Mexico. I feel that the Lamanites in that land will receive the Gospel by thousands." Moses Thatcher, Conference Report, April 1880

Tenth LDS President Joseph Fielding Smith let it be known that the Lamanite influence was not restricted to North America. "The history of this American continent also gives evidence that the Lamanites have risen up in their anger and vexed the Gentiles. This warfare may not be over. It has been the fault of people in the United States to think that this prophetic saying has reference to the Indians in the United States, but we must remember that there are millions of the 'remnant' in Mexico, Central and South America" (Church History and Modern Revelation 2:127, emphasis mine).
Speaking in conference in October 1921, Elder Andrew Jenson, a member of the staff of the LDS Church's Historian's Office, stated, "We, therefore cast a glance southward into old Mexico and through the great countries beyond -- down through Central America and South America, where there are millions and millions of Lamanites, direct descendants of Father Lehi." (Conference Report, October 1921, p.120, emphasis mine).

We also have inspired Temple dedicatory prayers from Prophets who have also stated that those in Mesoamerica (as well as many other places, but for the sake of argument, I’m only providing the quotes from Mesoamerica) have the blood of Lehi in them.
President Hinckley in his prayer at the dedication of the Mexico City temple in December 1983, he stated, "Bless Thy Saints in this great land and those from other lands who will use this Temple. Most have in their veins the blood of Father Lehi" http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/cgi-bin ... onological
In December of the following year, he gave a dedicatory prayer at the Guatemala City, Guatemala temple where he stated, "Thou Kind and Gracious Father, our hearts swell with gratitude for Thy remembrance of the sons and daughters of Lehi... We thank Thee O God, for lifting the scales of darkness which for generations clouded the vision of the descendants of Lehi




http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/cgi-bin ... onological)
At the Guatemala City temple dedication, he prayed: "We thank thee for the recorded record of our ancestors, the record of Lehi, Nephi and Jacob, of Alma and Mosiah, of Benjamin and Mormon and Moroni."
In his March 6, 1999 dedicatory prayer given at the Colonia Juaréz Chihuahua Temple, Hinckley he said, "Bless Thy Saints that they may continue to live here without molestation. May they live in peace and security. May they be prospered as they cultivate their farms and pursue their vocations. May the sons and daughters of father Lehi grow in strength and in fulfillment of the ancient promises made concerning them." (http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/cgi-bin ... phabetical).
In August 1999, Hinckley made a similar statement as he was in Guayaquil, Ecuador to dedicate another new LDS temple. "It has been a very interesting thing to see the descendants of father Lehi in the congregation that have gathered in the temple...So very many of these people have the blood of Lehi in their veins, and it is just an intriguing thing to see their tremendous response and their tremendous interest" (Salt Lake Tribune 11/30/2000).
When James Faust, Gordon Hinckley's second counselor, gave the dedicatory prayer for the Tuxtla Gutierrez, Mexico temple on March 12, 2000, he stated, "We invoke Thy blessings upon this nation of Mexico where so many of the sons and daughters of Father Lehi dwell." (http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/cgi-bin ... onological)

Thomas Monson, Gordon Hinckley's first counselor, made the same connection when he prayed at the dedication of the Villahermosa, Mexico temple on May 21, 2000: "May Thy eternal purposes concerning the sons and daughters of Lehi be realized in this sacred house. May every blessing of the eternal gospel be poured out upon them, and may the suffering of the centuries be softened through the beneficence of Thy loving care." (


http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/cgi-bin ... onological)

Point being, there are Lamanites in North America, but there are also Lamanites in Mesoamerica, and South America. This isn’t a strong point for BOM geography.
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

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Rod Meldrum wrote:
Called to Serve wrote:
Oh, and if anyone has Joseph Smith quotes to share, I'd love to read those. I've heard he spoke on the subject.




Also, before putting to much stock in the FARMS Review attacks against the Heartland Model, you might want to know that all those involved with the editorial board of the publication were summarily fired from the Church's BYU Maxwell Institute for undisclosed reasons. However, what IS known is that they spent months in assembling hundreds of pages of attack articles against a member of the Church in excellent standing while using Church funds to promote their own theories, which runs contrary to the Church's official position of neutrality on Book of Mormon geography. The issue bearing the attacks was some 8 months behind schedule for undisclosed reasons.




Are you implying that those who lost their job had anything to do with you? Having some insight to the issue, you were never even brought up, but happened because of different ideals of the new leaders. If they were fired because of you, then how would you explain that it happened nearly 2 years after they began publishing articles which reviewed your work? How do you explain those who lost their jobs who had nothing to do with those articles, or Book of Mormon geography at all? How do you explain that Matt Roper, who printed more articles than anyone else on your work, still has a job there?
To imply such things is not only a stretch to say the least, but inaccurate and a poor attempt to dismiss their material. Having read all of their reviews and your rebuttals to them, they still come out on top 9 times out of 10.
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

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livy111us wrote:
erichard wrote:
Called to Serve wrote:...There are two theories I believe are possible, the United States location, because of its current status as the home of a blessed nation (if only they would stay good so they can keep that status!) and the South America location. ...I haven't studied the topic more than casually. But I am curious about it. I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts on the subject.


Hi,

I am very certain that the true descendants of Laman and Lemuel are found today mainly in South America. Most of those with Native American blood in Central and North America are a mixture that sometimes includes Lamanite blood.

I am not so sure where the Book of Mormon account took place. But I tend to believe it took place in South America. I found Venice Priddis' book, "The Book and the Map" very convicing in some ways. I realize it takes faith to believe the Amazon basin was underwater before the time of Christ, but it takes faith to believe the Book of Mormon itself.

George Potter (nephiproject.com) does not accept the Priddis model, but still proposes a South American model. Here is a list of the reasons he gives in a dvd he gives away on the matter:

Peru and the surrounding countries.

1. Gold Plates --Thin metal gold plates have been found. It has been shown that people in the area were working gold as early as 1900 BC. In contrast, the earliest evidence of metal working in Mesoamerica is about 900 AD.

2. BoM people mined gold and silver in abundance, as well as copper and iron. The gold found by the Spanish in this land is legendary, and yet there is evidence that the Incan priests hid much gold from the Spanish. Large collections of highly skilled gold artifacts remain. Also evidence of iron is found. In contrast there is no evidence of any iron workings in Mesoamerica.

3. The Nephites worshipped Jesus Christ. The Quetzalcoatl legends start around 900 AD, long after the time of Christ. In contrast, the premier god of the Andes is Viracocha. He dressed in a white robe and wore sandals. He is always in the form of a normal man, and never with the beast like features associated with Quetzalcoatl.

4. Jesus Christ visited the Americas. The Peruvians have legends of a bearded white god who came among them and taught them and healed the sick. The Icons of Viracocha usually show him with tears.

5. A language with middle eastern roots. Mesoamerica has many Chinese roots:
http://www.chinese.tcu.edu/www_chinese3_tcu_edu.htm However, the native Quechua in Peru has semetic roots by many studies.

6. A vanished written language. The Incans told the Spanish that they had had a written language, but it was lost long before. In contrast, hundreds of written documents have been found in Mesoamerica. Jacob 4:1-2 predicts only things written on plates will survive.

7 Great cities built form 3rd millennium BC. In the andies city ruins from 2700 BC exist. In contrast, cities in Mesoamerica exist from only 1200 BC. The cities of Caral date from 2700 BC and the ruins resemble the ziggurats from Mesopotamia from which the Jaredites came. The Book of Mormon main civilization ended around 400 AD. The Mesoamerican classic period was from 300 AD to 900 AD.

Archeological periods (civilizations) for proposed Book of Mormon lands:

Caral -- Norte Chico 2700-300 BC (Jaredites)
Central Andes -- Early Intermediate 600 BC to AD 200 (Land of Nephi)

Early Tiwanaku IV -- Late Chiripa II Middle formative 600 BC - AD 400 (Lamanite lands)

Northern Titicaca basin Late/Upper Formative 500 BC - AD 400 (Zarahemla)

8. Land of BoM was divided into quarters: Alma 43:26 52:10. The Incas called their land the land of the four quarters, and divided the land into four quarters.

9. The land was covered with borders, meaning Mountains. The word borders means mountains in Hebrew and Arabic. The book of Mormon talks of mountains. This is indicative of the Andes which has many mountains.

10. The Incans were great Highway builders. The BoM speaks of many highways. 3 Nephi 8:13 The Incas and preIncans used cement, as also mentioned in the BoM.

11. The Nephites were Hebrews The only place the Hebrew DNA has been found in the Americas so far is in South America.

12. BoM people divided into two groups: fair skinned and dark skinned. Artifacts and legends in Peru tell of two earlier people: one fair skinned and one dark skinned. The legends say the dark skinned killed of the fair skinned people. Artifacts show light skinned people well dressed fighting

13. The Nephites were skilled ship builders. The reed boats in Titicaca match the reed boats in Mesopotamia. The Incans had large ships when the Spanish came.

14 The people of the BoM had horses. But it never mentions anyone riding horses. Possibly Nephi saw Llamas and called them horses.

15 The BoM had many types of grain. There are many types of grains grown in the Andes.

16 The BoM people were shepherds. The BoM mentions sheep and shepherding many times. This fact alone removes North and Mesoamerica as a candidate for the BoM history. The only domesticated animals the mayans had were turkeys and dogs. In the andes Alpacas are hered like sheep and the Spanish described them as sheep. The Nephites could have also called them sheep. Vicunas could be what are called wild goats in the BoM.

17 Elephants, pigs and cattle are mentioned in the BoM. These terms must have applied to Andes versions of these animals.

18 The Nephites had solar and lunar calendars. The ancient Peruvians also had solar and lunar calendars.

19 The Incans had large graineries. The BoM speaks of vast storages of grain.

20 Costly apparel. Silk spoken of in the Book of Mormon. The Peruvians were the master weavers of the ancient Americas. Silk could be any finely woven cloth.


I am a fan of George Potter, but his stuff on BOM geography can use some work. The list he uses to support a South American setting, all the while discounting a Mesoamerican setting is grossly inaccurate. Many of the parallels he draws are so vague that they can be drawn with cultures on the other side of the world. "The Nephites drank water and the people of the Andes drank water, therefore, they are one and the same."
He also doesn't understand Mesoamerican archaeology because he gets numerous points wrong. He studied it just enough to get the information he wanted then stopped. He has a very limited understanding of the cultures there and doesn't do a very good job at presenting an honest case.
One thing that really bothered me about this list is the double standard. He would let one principle slide if it was in his geography, but condemned the Mesoamerican setting for the exact same principle. For example, he has stated in the past that The BOM could not have taken place in Mesoamerica because silk, goats, metal-working, etc... did not exist there. But he fails to mention that those exact same things are NOT found in South America as well. Not the most honest thing, is it?
Here is a response to one of Potters lists that he has made that discusses a few of the problems with them. It is quite good and raises an eyebrow.

Response to George Potter's "Ten Reasons why Mesoamerica is Not Book of Mormon Lands"

http://www.bmaf.org/node/487

I've seen about EVERY side do this.
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

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Called to Serve wrote:I can't get around the narrow neck of land problem with the North American model. Rod, can you give me a definite idea of where you think the Nephites and Lamanites were located in North America? Are you going with the narrow neck of land through the great lakes?

That doesn't make much sense to me because of the limitations on land use. First of all, the Jaradites were supposed to have inhabited the land northward, but why would they have settled in Canada when they had the rest of the continent available to them. Before modern technology, that climate was harsh, harsh, harsh. Most children didn't live to adulthood.

It just makes more sense to me that the narrow neck was the panama canal neck, the land northward all of North America and the land southward all of South America. I mean, the natives were covering all that land when the white men came on the scene, weren't they?

I know my ideas don't fit all the clues specifically, but I don't know that anything has conclusively proven them wrong either. Joseph Smith's quotes just don't pin it down specifically. The Book of Mormon prophesies could be talking about a different part of "this land." The whole grapes and iguanas problems don't seem too difficult to get around. I mean, they could have been eating different things and called them the same thing as what they were used to, couldn't they? And I'm sure there are more than just monkeys to eat in South America that would fit the law of Moses (if the Lamanites were even keeping the law).

So anyway, interesting conversation, but no one has yet convinced me beyond doubt that the land of the Nephites was anywhere other than the upper part of South America. It just seems that the important aspects of geography have to get stretched out of proportion to meet any other place.

And I still think it's just for fun. I'm not going to get confused about the prophesies of the United States just because I think the Nephites lived in South America.

I think you have lots of cultural limitations and biases here (especially that Canadian part!). If it's the narrow neck of land, weren't you the one talking about changes after the destruction? Many places now under water weren't, and many that aren't were. Look at Mexico City, for instance.
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

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Called to Serve wrote:They are trifling if you are trying to learn the gospel. But if you are trying to figure out where the Nephites lived, they're vital.

No one's saying that we have to know where the Nephites and Lamanites lived in order to obtain salvation or anything. It's just fun to think about. That can be one of the things when the Savior comes again and reveals all things to us we can say--yeah, I got that one! Or not. Just fun. Not serious.

WAAAAAAY beyond "fun" for many people... ;)
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

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livy111us wrote:As long as you have that attitude, that is great. But I just spoke to someone yesterday who subscribes to Meldrums Great Lakes theory who believes BOM geography is central to the Gospel. As long as we study it with the understanding that it is interesting and fun to toss ideas around, then there is no harm. When you take it so seriously that you think those who disagree with you are in apostasy then you are looking beyond the mark.


Ah, I'll write the GA and tell him to repent! Luckily, though he is not in apostasy yet.

Seriously, anyone who has that attitude, is likely in serious spiritual trouble.
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

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Rod,
They have determined past civilizations populations in basically all of the same way, and the study which I quoted supports previously (and currently) known information. There were no cities among the Hopewell, only small villages. How do you house tens of thousands of people in a small village that only big enough to contain 100 people? There just is no evidence of a large population. You mention large mounds, but these were not built over night (or over several years like in The Book of Mormon) but built over the span of several centuries (North American Archaeology Pauketat and Loren). If they are built over the span of centuries, then a large group of people would not be needed. Archaeologist’s are not dumb people and they have discovered enough to know about how big a population is. They’ve been digging Hopewell sites for a very long time now and have yet to discover anything to indicate they matched anything close to the population and cities we find in The Book of Mormon. If you discover numerous large cities with the kind of trash, remains, houses, products of everyday living, etc… to support a large population, then there probably actually was a large population. If you discover only villages, with hamlets, and the trash, and products of everyday living to support a small population, then it probably was only a small population.

You say “There were huge populations in America's Heartland in ancient times.”
This is true, but these populations post-date The Book of Mormon. For that matter, so does the internet and electricity. They happened after the time period of The Book of Mormon and therefore have nothing to do with The Book of Mormon. It is a bit dis-honest do make this claim, since I have brought this up to you in the past. You know that these populations happened centuries, even millennia after The Book of Mormon, yet you continue to use it as evidence for The Book of Mormon. Let’s please stick to the facts, document your answers, and keep within the correct time period for The Book of Mormon.
Rod says “please show us one single historically documented instance of Joseph Smith writing in his own handwriting,”
I have provided the Bernhisel document above, which he states that the Stephens and Catherwoods book on Mesoamerica “corresponds with and supports The Book of Mormon.” I provided several other examples as well. I don’t proudly wave it around either because I don’t think it makes or breaks BOM geography. Particularly since there are other men who held the same calling as Joseph Smith who believed The Book of Mormon to have taken place in Mesoamerica which would have just as much validity.
Rod says “but no matter how much you may DESIRE to believe this account to be from Joseph Smith, it is another second hand account”
Rod, you realize that you have used these same second hand accounts as evidence for your model? Yet when I use them, you immediately throw them out? How is that fair?

ZARAHEMLA

Regarding Zarahemla, you try to dismiss what I say without even hearing the evidence. The Church has published in the Church Institute manual, approved to be taught in Church sanctioned classes that provides a different interpretation that what you’d like to present. It says that the Lord did not reveal it to be the original Zarahemla, but that it was named *after* the Zarahemla in The Book of Mormon.
“D&C 125:3 . Where Does the Term Zarahemla Come From? Where Was the City Located?

The precise meaning of the word Zarahemla is not known. The term comes from the Book of Mormon account of the people who came to America from Jerusalem at the time Zedekiah was carried captive into Babylon. They were called the people of Zarahemla after the name of their leader. They lived in a city named Zarahemla, in the land of Zarahemla (see Omni 1:12–19 ).

It was common in Book of Mormon times to name cities “after the name of him who first possessed them” ( Alma 8:7 ). The Latter-day Saints gave many of their settlements Book of Mormon names. For example, in Utah are such cities as Nephi, Moroni, Manti, and Bountiful.

One of the first settlements named in this way by the Saints was Zarahemla, at Nashville, Lee County, Iowa. “This settlement was founded by the Saints in 1839, on the uplands about a mile west of the Mississippi River, near Montrose and opposite Nauvoo, Ill. The Church had bought an extensive tract of land here. At a conference held at Zarahemla, August 7th, 1841, seven hundred and fifty Church members were represented, of whom three hundred and twenty-six lived in Zarahemla. But when the Saints left for the Rocky Mountains, that city was lost sight of.” (Smith and Sjodahl, Commentary, p. 796.)”
As mentioned above, there are several BOM cities in Utah that have nothing to do with The Book of Mormon. The city Bountiful, Lehi, Nephi, Moroni all are within a few hundred miles of me and are not BOM sites. They named these cities after important cities in The Book of Mormon. How many New Yorks are there? Springfields? There is a Moscow in Idaho that has nothing to do with Russia. Just because it shares a name does not mean it is the exact same site.
Matthew Roper, who currently works at the Neal A. Maxwell Institute and has written several articles rebutting Rod Meldrums theory, wrote this about the subject

“In March 1841, in a revelation now known as section 125 of the Doctrine and Covenants, the Lord counseled the Saints in Iowa to gather at several appointed locations:

What is the will of the Lord concerning the saints in the Territory of Iowa? Verily, thus saith the Lord, I say unto you, if those who call themselves by my name and are essaying to be my saints, if they will do my will and keep my commandments concerning them, let them gather themselves together unto the places which I shall appoint unto them by my servant Joseph, and build up cities unto my name, that they may be prepared for that which is in store for a time to come. Let them build up a city unto my name upon the land opposite the city of Nauvoo, and let the name of Zarahemla be named upon it. And let all those who come from the east, and the west, and the north, and the south, that have desires to dwell therein, take up their inheritance in the same, as well as in the city of Nashville, or in the city of Nauvoo, and in all the stakes which I have appointed, saith the Lord. (D&C 125:1–4)
Porter and Meldrum use this revelation to support their theory about the location of the ancient Zarahemla. Noting that the Book of Mormon speaks of the New Jerusalem as geographically distinct from Jerusalem (Ether 13:5), they argue that since the Lord called the Iowa settlement "Zarahemla" in revelation, it must be the same location mentioned in the Book of Mormon; otherwise, the Lord would have called the Iowa site "New Zarahemla" rather than "Zarahemla" to clarify the difference in location. "There is no indication that He named it for any other purpose than to establish an understanding of where the ancient city may have stood" (p. 111). Really? The name Zion, besides referring to the Lord's people (Moses 7:18), can refer to the Temple Mount in Jerusalem (1 Kings 8:1); the City of Enoch (Moses 7:19, 63); Jackson County, Missouri (D&C 66:6); or the city to be built there (D&C 57:2). Each is a different geographical location named "Zion" by the Lord; none is called "New Zion."

More important, Porter and Meldrum's theory rests upon the assumption that it was the Lord who first designated the Iowa gathering site as Zarahemla. This, however, is not the case. On 2 July 1839, Joseph Smith and other church leaders visited the site in question. The entry published in the History of the Church reads as follows:

Spent the forenoon of this day on the Iowa side of the river. Went, in company with Elders Sidney Rigdon, Hyrum Smith, and Bishops Whitney and Knight, and others, to visit a purchase lately made by Bishop Knight as a location for a town, and advised that a town be built there, and called Zarahemla.
The last three words of this entry, "and called Zarahemla," were not written by Joseph Smith but were written into the "Manuscript History of Joseph Smith" by Elder Willard Richards when he recorded the history for that date sometime after the Prophet's death in 1844.85 However, referring to the settlement as "Zarahemla" before the March 1841 revelation is consistent with other historical evidence showing that the Saints already referred to the site by that name. Brigham Young, who began keeping a regular journal in early 1839, recorded that on 2 July 1839 "Brothers Joseph, Hyrum and others came over the river to Montrose, and went out on the prairie and looked out the sight for a city for the Saints, which was called Zarahemla." 86 Elias Smith, a cousin of Joseph Smith, recorded in his journal for 24 June 1839 the following: "Moved from Commerce to Lee County, Iowa Territory, and went on the farm bought of F. P. Blevins." 87 In his journal for 16 August 1840, he recorded the death of the Prophet's brother Don Carlos and noted that there was a "Conference at Zarahemla" on that day. 88 These early references to the name of the Iowa settlement previous to March 1841 indicate that the Saints referred to it as Zarahemla long before the reve lation in question. There is no indication in these early sources that this designation was based upon revelation or even that it was Joseph Smith's idea. This evidence suggests, rather, that the name did not originate with the March 1841 revelation and that the Lord was referencing a location already known among the Saints by that name. The purpose of the revelation was most likely to counsel the Saints to gather at the appointed place and not, as the authors suggest, to reveal the ancient location of a Book of Mormon city. The Saints did what they would often do—name places they lived after places mentioned in the Bible and the Book of Mormon. There is no compelling reason to associate the Iowa settlement with ancient Zarahemla.” You can read the entire article here: http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... m=2&id=805

John Lund has wrote “They believe that the city of Zarahemla in Iowa across the Mississippi River and opposite of Nauvoo, was named by revelation as the original Zarahemla. That is trying hard to make that scripture say something that it does not say. One wonders why the Lord didn’t name Nauvoo, which in on a hill, “Amnihu?” In the Book of Mormon the hill Amnihu is directly across the River Sidon (Alma 2:15). Zarahemla, Iowa was named by revelation, but there is no indication that the Lord was declaring where the original Land of Zarahemla stood… It is also contrary to the official Church newspaper Times and Seasons published article under the supervision and editorship of Joseph Smith wherein he states that Zarahemla stood upon the land of “Guatemala.” These same Great Lake’s advocates recognize that somewhere south of the Land of Zarahemla are the highlands of the Land of Nephi. Their current proposal is the eastern hills of Tennessee. West of the east hills of Tennessee is Chattanooga, Tennessee. From Chattanooga to Zarahemla, Iowa is about six hundred and thirty-four miles.
West of Zarahemla is the Land of Melek and three days north of the border of Melek is the city of Ammonihah. A conservative estimate is fifty miles north of Zarahemla. The Land of Zarahemla does have its borders and east to west distances are about three hundred miles, while the north south range is about five hundred to a maximum of six hundred and fifty miles. In order for the Great Lakes geography to work, it requires over eight hundred and seventy miles from Zarahemla, Iowa, to Palmyra, New York. This is an east to west range nearly three times greater than what armies and escaping Nephites can travel given the internal restraints of the Book of Mormon.”
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

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Oops, just remembered a few things I was going to respond to. Rod says there are never tornadoes in Mesoamerica. Don't try telling them that :)

They have recently had several tornadoes in the Jalisco area, with property damage and 5 deaths. Give us a hurricane any day. You know it is coming and you can be prepared or get out of the way.
("Heat Waves and Tornadoes," in Midsummerâ??s News in the Yucatan, 2007 URL: http://www.yucatanli...the-yucatan.htm Accessed: 5-12-2008; bold emphasis mine)

You can watch a video of a tornado from Mesoamerica here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPQmJVurBNg

Also, you mentioned thick clothing. I, along with several other people have told you this before and it was published in one of the articles above, but it keeps slipping your mind. Thick clothing was used as armor in Mesoamerica, just as it was in The Book of Mormon. This information can be found in any cursory search regarding Mesoamerican armor. Bill Hamblin published a very good paper on the subject here:http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=66&chapid=738

Not only does this argument not go against the Mesoamerican theory, but it actually supports it.

Ok, I'm done now.
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

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I have a hard time understanding why people get so worked up about this subject. I have seen lots of hurt feelings and bickering over the BoM lands. Does anyone have some insight?

I kind of figure that Mormon/Moroni saw our day and could have included geographical information to have the issue settled. Since they chose not to be explicit about it, it must not have been important.
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

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I was just reading over this thread and I've decided that I really don't care where they were - not enjoying the tone here.
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

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I have a hard time understanding why people get so worked up about this subject. I have seen lots of hurt feelings and bickering over the BoM lands. Does anyone have some insight?


Professional/academic reputation is pretty much at the heart of it - for ALL involved. all theories, all scholars...

My take on it anyway... :-B
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

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JohnnyL wrote:I think you have lots of cultural limitations and biases here (especially that Canadian part!). If it's the narrow neck of land, weren't you the one talking about changes after the destruction? Many places now under water weren't, and many that aren't were. Look at Mexico City, for instance.

Are you being serious? I honestly can't tell. About Canada, I mean. I don't think I have any cultural biases. My idea of the difficulty the Jaradites would have had in living in Canada comes from a book I read that was based on a true story about a woman a hundred or two years ago who married a man and followed him to Canada. She didn't live too far above the border but the climate was so harsh that the families would talk of their "first family" and "second family" and so forth. Apparently the climate was so harsh that many families would lose every child they had to illness during a particularly bad winter and would have to start all over again. I believe she lived not too far from the great lakes area.

I served my mission in Canada, by the way.

As for the changes in the land, someone mentioned how the entire book was abridged by Mormon and Moroni and they would have known of the current landscape. So I've put that problem to rest. I've gone back to thinking that the descriptions in the Book of Mormon are probably correct (or Mormon would have probably mentioned the differences as he went along).

To be honest, I'm thinking I'll bow out of the conversation for now. I was curious about all the various ideas but really it's getting kind of ridiculous. I think I was better off when I was looking at the general picture, which really seems so clear cut to me now that I've gotten all sorts of other things thrown at me.

It seems to me that there was a narrow neck of land with a land northward and a land southward. It seems that that neck would have to be pretty easy to spot as an actual neck and that the land northward and the land southward would have to cover the land from one ocean to the other. It always seemed so clear before and now I'm just going back to that because everything else just seems so complicated and some of it pretty far-fetched. I haven't seen anything yet that would conclusively sway me from that conclusion.

So happy arguing. I'll find out for sure when I see the Savior and can ask Him. Or Moroni or Nephi or someone. At least now I know some of the other reasoning out there for the different locations.
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

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Etosha wrote:I was just reading over this thread and I've decided that I really don't care where they were - not enjoying the tone here.


I think you have more sense than most of us (including me). I have tried been guilty in the past, but am looking forward to have a respectful conversation with Rod, but have to say, it is difficult when you are continually maligned. One thing that keeps drawing back are the insults he throws at me. If he would be respectful, there would have been a lot of conversations I just would have avoided. But you are absolutely right, it does not matter where it happened and too many people get worked up over something that makes zero difference on our salvation.
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

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;) I appreciate that - thanks!
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

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Rod Meldrum wrote:
Called to Serve wrote: . . . Another indication it could not have occurred in Mesoamerica is because of the instances of tornado's (whirlwinds) which do not happen in Mesoamerica because the conditions necessary for their formation don't exist. Now compare that to the Heartland of North America. (see 3 Nephi 8:12, 16). Remember Joplin, Missouri? When it was hit by a category 4 twister it was quite literally "blown away." Incredibly, there was a Joplin man's body that was found over 50 miles away from Joplin. It had, like those described in the Book of Mormon, been "carried away in the whirlwind" (3 Ne. 8:16). Show me any category 4 tornado in Mesoamerican history. They don't exist... and don't let ol' livy try to mislead you into thinking that "whirlwind" actually meant "hurricane" because Ether 6:6 defines such fierce winds as a "tempest" not a "whirlwind."


But remember 3 Nephi 8:5, which says: "there arose a great storm, such an one as never had been known in all the land". So your passages don't really bespeak an area subject to seasonal tornadoes, such as the midwest. The 'whirlwinds' occurred during a very uncommon singular episode of extreme whether and earth-related events; the latter of which could have been related to plate movements and maybe volcanics.

To say category 4 tornadoes haven't taken place in Mesoamerica, implying that they haven't taken place there or won't, is a rather bold assertion akin to trying to prove a negative proposition. How about category 2 or 3 tornadoes? What category of tornado can pick a man up an move him a certain distance?

Remember the tornadoes that occurred in Great Britain this past year? They are normally never heard of in that particular locale.
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

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livy111us wrote:Since most of what you said is re-hashed from the first few posts, I think I'll call it good. If someone would like me to respond to any particular point, please let me know and I will do so. In the meantime, most everything that Rod has brought up has been rebutted before. You can read these reviews here:


http://www.fairblog.org/2011/02/12/the- ... of-mormon/
http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... m=2&id=805
http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... m=2&id=806
http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... m=1&id=793
http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... m=1&id=796
http://www.fairblog.org/2010/09/16/land ... of-mormon/
http://www.fairblog.org/2010/09/16/weat ... geography/
http://www.fairblog.org/2010/04/29/the- ... oup-again/
http://www.fairblog.org/2010/04/02/zelp ... geography/
http://www.fairblog.org/2010/04/02/book ... miths-day/
http://www.fairlds.org/reviews-of-dna-e ... -geography

http://www.bmaf.org/node/323

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... num=1&id=7

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... m=1&id=420

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... m=1&id=817

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... m=2&id=153

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... m=2&id=219

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... m=1&id=347


You have an impressive list.

The Nephites practiced the Law of Moses, including natural-stone altars (Exodus 20), before the coming of Jesus to them.

Anything which shows that the ALTARS in Mesoamerica (pre 34 AD) are from NON_HEWN and non-carved stone as required in the law of Moses? I'd like to see data regarding altars (hewn or natural stones?) for both Central and North America, pre-coming of Jesus (ca 34 AD). Any solid info would be appreciated.

I've been to AdamOA a number of times in Missouri, and the Church has plaques there stating that there were "Nephite altars" there at one time, identified evidently by Joseph Smith and comprised of natural stones. To me, this may be significant.
That man who rises up..finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives TPJS 156
DrJones
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

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DrJones wrote:
livy111us wrote:Since most of what you said is re-hashed from the first few posts, I think I'll call it good. If someone would like me to respond to any particular point, please let me know and I will do so. In the meantime, most everything that Rod has brought up has been rebutted before. You can read these reviews here:


http://www.fairblog.org/2011/02/12/the- ... of-mormon/
http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... m=2&id=805
http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... m=2&id=806
http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... m=1&id=793
http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... m=1&id=796
http://www.fairblog.org/2010/09/16/land ... of-mormon/
http://www.fairblog.org/2010/09/16/weat ... geography/
http://www.fairblog.org/2010/04/29/the- ... oup-again/
http://www.fairblog.org/2010/04/02/zelp ... geography/
http://www.fairblog.org/2010/04/02/book ... miths-day/
http://www.fairlds.org/reviews-of-dna-e ... -geography

http://www.bmaf.org/node/323

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... num=1&id=7

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... m=1&id=420

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... m=1&id=817

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... m=2&id=153

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... m=2&id=219

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... m=1&id=347


You have an impressive list.

The Nephites practiced the Law of Moses, including natural-stone altars (Exodus 20), before the coming of Jesus to them.

Anything which shows that the ALTARS in Mesoamerica (pre 34 AD) are from NON_HEWN and non-carved stone as required in the law of Moses? I'd like to see data regarding altars (hewn or natural stones?) for both Central and North America, pre-coming of Jesus (ca 34 AD). Any solid info would be appreciated.

I've been to AdamOA a number of times in Missouri, and the Church has plaques there stating that there were "Nephite altars" there at one time, identified evidently by Joseph Smith and comprised of natural stones. To me, this may be significant.


Hmmm...That will be a difficult one but will see what I can do. To find a small mound of stone that would survive over 2,000 years through earthquakes, the takeover of Nephite cities by Lamanites who would love to destroy their religion, as well as the conquistadors would be a miracle in and of itself, but will take a look and appreciate the challenge. Adam-ondi-Ahman would be an anomaly for sure.
livy111us
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

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Rod Meldrum wrote:
livy111us wrote:
2. how he supposedly changed his mind after the 1842 Times and Seasons articles (which he didn't write and was historically known to have been in hiding from the law at the time) . . . . .

Your faulty "internal model" interpretations are no match for the prophecies and Joseph Smith's statements which all support our Heartland Model theory. I'll be interested to read how you are going to "spin" this one! Happy trails! Contrary to Mesoamerican theorists who gleefully proclaim that Joseph was ignorant and uneducated about where the lands of the Book of Mormon were located...Joseph Knew! The Lord Knew! And they both sent those first missionaries unto the Lamanite remnant in the Heartland of North America and never to Mesoamerica. Now you know.


I've not been aware that Mesoamerican theorists "gleefully proclaim that Joseph was ignorant and uneducated about where the lands of the Book of Mormon were located". On the contrary,I've heard them cite the evidence that he believed they were in the Mesoamerican region. I've also heard them cite how he would regale his family with his descriptions of their dress and civilization in general, which strongly implies he had images in his mind that he could use to identify any remnants of their civilization if he saw them.

You will need to go over the evidence John Lund presented in the recent BMAF Conference that Joseph really did author the 1842 Times and Seasons articles (each with his signature block at the end) stating that he believed the Mesoamerican region described by Stevens was where Zarahemela was located. I found it very compelling.

What he did was take 11 stylistic, word usage, frequency, vocabulary, etc. elements and analyzed the writings of Joseph Smith, John Taylor, and Wilford Woodruff (editors of Times and Seasons at this time) and compared them to the articles wherein the claims were made that the Guatemalan/Southern Mexico region was where Zarahemla was located. Each article fit Smith's profile to a 'T', and normally showed wide divergence from both Taylor's and Woodruff's profiles.

Apparently, other authors have done the same thing; namely: Matthew Roper, Paul Fields, and Atul Nepal in their article: Wordprint Analysis and Joseph Smith's Role as Editor of the Times and Seasons, at: http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... m=6&id=923 .

These studies are compelling to me, especially Dr. John Lund's, which I heard first person.

Now, I would have to look into your assertion that Joseph was on the lam and therefore wouldn't have been available to write these articles. And of course would have to read any rebuttal to your claims on this issue to get a clear idea of the possibilities to see how that fits in with the evidence that Joseph actually wrote the articles.
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