Adam "born" 3760 BC, so we're 230 years from 7th seal?

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Adam "born" 3760 BC, so we're 230 years from 7th seal?

Postby pjbrownie » Sun Aug 01, 2010 5:46 pm

I've seen this fact that Adam was born in 3760 BC, converted at 4004 BC. Where do we find this stuff conclusively or is it all conjecture. If Adam were born in 3760 it would make the true year 2,000 almost 230 years to the future. Could this be possible? Are we waiting for an event that neither our children, grandchildren, or great-grandchildren will see? Can anyone help me out with this Hebrew calendar stuff. It 3760 BC Hebrew is 4004 BC Gregorian, how come the Hebrew year is 5770 and the Gregorian year is 2010? Something seems out of step for me.
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Adam "born" 3760 BC, so we're 230 years from 7th seal?

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Re: Adam "born" 3760 BC, so we're 230 years from 7th seal?

Postby PSCahill » Sun Aug 01, 2010 8:13 pm

I don't know if you've seen John P. Pratt's work at Meridian Magazine (LDS), but his is the best I have seen.
Here are some links to his calendar stuff...I'm new on this site, so I won't attempt to do hyperlinks...

The Hebrew Calendar Testifies of the Creator (http://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/lds ... ebrew.html)
Seven Sacred Calendars Testify of Christ (http://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/lds ... acred.html)
Religious Chronology Summary (http://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/lds/dates.html)
An index of many of his articles (http://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/lds/index.html)
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Re: Adam "born" 3760 BC, so we're 230 years from 7th seal?

Postby Rensai » Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:03 am

pjbrownie wrote:I've seen this fact that Adam was born in 3760 BC, converted at 4004 BC. Where do we find this stuff conclusively or is it all conjecture.


The bible doesn't say exactly when Adam was born; but it does say the age each prophet lived and later the rulers of israel, etc. We can count the passage of time from these entries. Cleon Skousen's old testament book does a really good job of this. It tracks it all and lays out the ages and time periods for each prophet to show that 4000 years passed from Adam to Christ's time. Therefore, the fall of Adam was at 4000 BC.

EDIT, I'll just post the time line so you can see for yourself. I don't think that would be a problem to share that much.

Cleon Skousens old testament timeline wrote:From his book, the first 2000 years:

Years From Adam Patriarchs Years B.C.
0 Beginning of mortality for Adam 4000 B.C.
130 Adam was 130 and begat Seth 3870 B.C.
235 Seth was 105 and begat Enos 3765 B.C.
325 Enos was 90 and begat Cainan 3675 B.C.
395 Cainan was 70 and begat Mahalaleel 3605 B.C.
560 Mahalaleel was 65 and begat Jared 3540 B.C.
622 Jared was 162 and begat Enoch 3378 B.C.
687 Enoch was 65 and begat Methuselah 3313 B.C.
874 Methuselah was 187 and begat Lamech 3126 B.C.
1,056 Lamech was 182 and begat Noah 2944 B.C.
1,548 Noah was 492 and begat Shem 2452 B.C.
1,656 (Noah 600) The Flood (Shem 108) 2344 B.C.
1,658 Shem was 110 and begat Arphaxad 2342 B.C.
1,693 Arphaxad was 35 and begat Salah 2307 B.C.
1,723 Salah was 30 and begat Eber 2277 B.C.
1,757 Eber was 34 and begat Peleg 2243 B.C.
1,787 Peleg was 30 and begat Reu 2213 B.C.
1,819 Reu was 32 and begat Serug 2181 B.C.
1,849 Serug was 30 and begat Nahor 2151 B.C.
1,878 Nahor was 29 and begat Terah 2122 B.C.
1,978 Terah was 100 and begat Abraham 2022 B.C.

From the third thousand years:
Approximate Years Before Christ
Birth of Abraham 2022 B.C.
Isaac born when Abraham is 100 (Genesis 21:23) 1922 B.C.
Jacob born when Isaac is 60 (Genesis 25:26) 1862 B.C.
Abraham dies at the age of 175 (Genesis 25:7-8) 1847 B.C.
Joseph born when Jacob is 91 (See chapter 3, note 96) 1771 B.C.
Joseph sold into Egypt at age of 17 (Genesis 37:2) 1754 B.C.
Isaac dies at age 180 (Genesis 35:28) 1742 B.C.
Joseph made prime minister of Egypt at 30 (Genesis 41:46) 1741 B.C.
Jacob moves to Egypt with his family at 130 (Genesis 47:9) 1732 B.C.
Jacob dies at age 147 (Genesis 47:28) 1715 B.C.
Joseph dies at age 110 (Genesis 50:22) 1661 B.C.
Moses is born 135 years after Jacob came to Egypt (see chapter 10 of this book) 1597 B.C.
Moses leads Israel from Egypt at age 80 (Acts 7:23, 30) 1517 B.C.
Moses dies (translated) at the age of 120 (Deut. 34:7) 1477 B.C.
Conquest of Canaan took 7 years (calculated from the words of Caleb in Joshua 14:7, 10) 1470 B.C.
The Judges lasted in excess of 400 years but the exact chronology is not given, therefore the following estimates are merely for the convenience of the reader:
Othniel 1434 B.C.
Ehud and Shamgar 1375 B.C.
Deborah 1333 B.C.
Gideon 1286 B.C.
Abimelech 1246 B.C.
Tola 1249 B.C.
Jair 1228 B.C.
Jephthah 1188 B.C.
Ibzan 1182 B.C.
Elon 1175 B.C.
Abdon 1167 B.C.
Samson 1139 B.C.
Eli 1119 B.C.
Samuel called as a prophet 1079 B.C.
Saul anointed king 1037 B.C.

From the fourth thousand years:
The Monarchy
1062 Birth of Saul.
1032 Birth of David.
1022 Saul anointed first king of Israel.
1002 Saul slain. David becomes king of Judah.
995 David crowned king of all Israel. Captures Jerusalem and makes it his capital.
962 David dies after making Solomon his successor.
950 Temple of Solomon dedicated.
922 Solomon dies and the kingdom is divided.
The Divided Kingdom
Israel (Northern Kingdom) Judah (Southern Kingdom)
922 Jeroboam (no relation to Solomon) 922 Rehoboam, son of Solomon
905 Abijah, his son
900 Nadab, his son 902 Asa, his son
898 Baasha (new dynasty)
886 Elah, his son
884 Zimri, usurper
884 Omri (new dynasty)
876 Ahab, his son
861 Jehoshaphat, his son
853 Ahaziah, his son
852 Jehoram, his brother 849 Jehoram, his son
841 Jehu (new dynasty) 841 Ahaziah, his son
841 Athaliah, his mother
834 Jehoash, her grandson
814 Jehoahaz, his son
798 Joash, his son 796 Amaziah, his son
782 Jeroboam II, his son
766 Uzziah (Azariah), his son
753 Zechariah
753 Shallum, usurper
753 Menahem (new dynasty)
736 Pekiah, his son 739 Jotham, his son
735 Pekah, usurper 734 Ahaz, his son
732 Hoshea, usurper 727 Hezekiah, his son
723 No king
722-721 Fall of Israel
[page xii]
Kingdom of Judah
696 Manasseh, son of Hezekiah
642 Amon, his son
639 Josiah, his son
609 Jehoahaz, his son
609 Jehoiakim, his brother
598 Jehoiachin, his son
598 Zedekiah, son of Josiah
587-586 Fall of Judah
Babylonian Exile
586 Gedaliah, governor over the Jewish remnant in Palestine.
538 Cyrus of Persia takes Babylon, permits Jewish exiles to return.
537 Zerubbabel and Joshua lead the first return to Judah (from Babylon).
520 Temple restoration begun, leaders are Haggai and Zechariah.
516 Second temple completed.
458 Ezra leads second large group of exiles to Judah.
445 Nehemiah leads back third group of exiles (from Persia).
420 High Priests rule Judea from this point.
332 Alexander the Great conquers Judea.
320 Ptolemy I (Soter) of Egypt occupies Judea.
264 Continues war in Judea between Egypt and Syria.
250 Septuagint translation made in Alexandria of the Pentateuch.
218 Palestine overrun by Antiochus III of Syria.
175 Antiochus IV (Epiphanes) rules in Syria, provokes Jews.
The Maccabean Revolt
167 Antiochus IV pollutes temple, Mattathias kills Syrian official.
165 Judas Maccabeus victorious over Syria.
164 The temple is purified.
161 Jonathan Maccabeus continues revolt, makes overtures to Rome.
142 Simon Maccabeus rules as High Priest, independence recognized by Syria and then Rome.
135 John Hyrcanus I rules and expands Jewish territory.
104 Aristobulus I rules, prosperity but internal strife.
102 Alexander Janneus rules, favors Sadducees over Pharisees.
76 Queen Alexandra, widow of Alexander, rules, favors Pharisees.
66 Hyrcanus II and brother Aristobulus II rule as co-regents, their quarrel for power brings in Rome.
63 Pompey captures Jerusalem. He and Julius Caesar rule Rome.
Idumean Rulers
46 Antipater of Idumea made procurator of Judea by Caesar. He appoints his son Herod as governor of Galilee.
41 Mark Antony possesses Palestine, Herod and his brother Phasael are made his tetrarchs.
33 Break between Antony and Octavian.
31 Battle of Actium. Antony and Cleopatra defeated.
30 Cleopatra and Mark Antony commit suicide.
27 Octavian becomes Augustus Caesar.

I'm sure the formatting is going to look goofy, but you can get the idea. This is tracked and it is accurate if you believe the bible. :)


If Adam were born in 3760 it would make the true year 2,000 almost 230 years to the future. Could this be possible? Are we waiting for an event that neither our children, grandchildren, or great-grandchildren will see?


Not according to the prophets. There have been several prophetic statements indicating that it is coming very soon. One that I have handy is from president Benson. In this talk, in 1979 at a BYU Fireside he said:

For nearly six thousand years, God has held you in reserve to make your appearance in the final days before the Second Coming of the Lord. Every previous gospel dispensation has drifted into apostasy, but ours will not. True, there will be some individuals who will fall away; but the kingdom of God will remain intact to welcome the return of its head--even Jesus Christ. While our generation will be comparable in wickedness to the days of Noah, when the Lord cleansed the earth by flood, there is a major difference this time. It is that God has saved for the final inning some of his strongest children, who will help bear off the Kingdom triumphantly. And that is where you come in, for you are the generation that must be prepared to meet your God.

http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.php?id=6718

If this is "the final inning" and this generation must be prepared to meet God, then clearly it can't be 230 years away. :D The Students would have been around 20 years old on average, add the 31 years that has passed from 79 to 2010 and the students are now around 50 years old.
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Re: Adam "born" 3760 BC, so we're 230 years from 7th seal?

Postby Hyrcanus » Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:28 am

Rensai wrote:Not according to the prophets. There have been several prophetic statements indicating that it is coming very soon. One that I have handy is from president Benson. In this talk, in 1979 at a BYU Fireside he said:

For nearly six thousand years, God has held you in reserve to make your appearance in the final days before the Second Coming of the Lord. Every previous gospel dispensation has drifted into apostasy, but ours will not. True, there will be some individuals who will fall away; but the kingdom of God will remain intact to welcome the return of its head--even Jesus Christ. While our generation will be comparable in wickedness to the days of Noah, when the Lord cleansed the earth by flood, there is a major difference this time. It is that God has saved for the final inning some of his strongest children, who will help bear off the Kingdom triumphantly. And that is where you come in, for you are the generation that must be prepared to meet your God.

http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.php?id=6718

If this is "the final inning" and this generation must be prepared to meet God, then clearly it can't be 230 years away. :D The Students would have been around 20 years old on average, add the 31 years that has passed from 79 to 2010 and the students are now around 50 years old.


First, I think we should all be ready for the second coming to happen at any point. We've been carefully instructed to prepare ourselves and I think we'd be wise to listen.

That said, quotes like the one cited above have been dispensed in various forms from very early in the restoration. Obviously the old ones aren't as popular today, but they're still out there. We need to be cautious then ourselves that we don't get too wound up with a particular interpretation of the time period the second coming will occur. I wouldn't say it "clearly" can't be 230 years away, anymore then Saints in 1860 "clearly" didn't think they'd see the turn of the century.
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Re: Adam "born" 3760 BC, so we're 230 years from 7th seal?

Postby Rensai » Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:15 pm

Hyrcanus wrote:
Rensai wrote:Not according to the prophets. There have been several prophetic statements indicating that it is coming very soon. One that I have handy is from president Benson. In this talk, in 1979 at a BYU Fireside he said:

For nearly six thousand years, God has held you in reserve to make your appearance in the final days before the Second Coming of the Lord. Every previous gospel dispensation has drifted into apostasy, but ours will not. True, there will be some individuals who will fall away; but the kingdom of God will remain intact to welcome the return of its head--even Jesus Christ. While our generation will be comparable in wickedness to the days of Noah, when the Lord cleansed the earth by flood, there is a major difference this time. It is that God has saved for the final inning some of his strongest children, who will help bear off the Kingdom triumphantly. And that is where you come in, for you are the generation that must be prepared to meet your God.

http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.php?id=6718

If this is "the final inning" and this generation must be prepared to meet God, then clearly it can't be 230 years away. :D The Students would have been around 20 years old on average, add the 31 years that has passed from 79 to 2010 and the students are now around 50 years old.


First, I think we should all be ready for the second coming to happen at any point. We've been carefully instructed to prepare ourselves and I think we'd be wise to listen.

That said, quotes like the one cited above have been dispensed in various forms from very early in the restoration. Obviously the old ones aren't as popular today, but they're still out there. We need to be cautious then ourselves that we don't get too wound up with a particular interpretation of the time period the second coming will occur. I wouldn't say it "clearly" can't be 230 years away, anymore then Saints in 1860 "clearly" didn't think they'd see the turn of the century.


I'm well aware that many members of the early church felt that the 2nd coming would come in their day. I attribute that to overzealousness and excitement about actually having a prophet on the earth again. Those were exciting times and there were a lot of amazing things going on. I don't think we can really comprehend what that period of time was like. I won't hold some inaccuracies against them. :)

I almost left that president Benson quote out for just that reason, but I believe he was accurate and that it is an exciting quote, so I wanted to share it. All that considered, I'd still have to respecfully disagree with you. I stand by what I said, 230 years is way too long. Forget the Benson quote if you like, but the time line speaks for itself from scripture.

We know there will be 6 seals or 1000 year periods in history.
We know, that our timeline from Chist to present is accurate and accounts for two of those. D&C 20:1 tells us this. No room for inaccuracy there.
The biblical time line accounts for the other 4 periods. It's true that a few things have to be estimated, but that does NOT allow for 230 years. Not even close.

Either we must conclude that:
A) The second coming is imminent.
B) The biblical time line contains some serious inaccuracies.

The church accepts the time line and it is frequently cited in church manuals, talks, etc. If you have some evidence that the bible time line is inaccurate to that level, then present it. Otherwise, we must assume the 6th seal is done. In that case, we're in the 7th seal and time is short.
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Re: Adam "born" 3760 BC, so we're 230 years from 7th seal?

Postby Col. Flagg » Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:37 pm

I have a video cassette that was produced by the church back in the '70's titled 'From Adam to Armageddon', which identifies timelines and events leading up to Christ's second coming. It clearly indicates that the second coming will occur after the 6th seal closes, but before the 7th opens. Thus, we are either at the end of the 6th seal or in between the closing and opening of the 6th & 7th. Either way, yeah, we're getting very close.
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Re: Adam "born" 3760 BC, so we're 230 years from 7th seal?

Postby Hyrcanus » Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:41 pm

Rensai wrote:I'm well aware that many members of the early church felt that the 2nd coming would come in their day. I attribute that to overzealousness and excitement about actually having a prophet on the earth again. Those were exciting times and there were a lot of amazing things going on. I don't think we can really comprehend what that period of time was like. I won't hold some inaccuracies against them. :)

I almost left that president Benson quote out for just that reason, but I believe he was accurate and that it is an exciting quote, so I wanted to share it. All that considered, I'd still have to respecfully disagree with you. I stand by what I said, 230 years is way too long. Forget the Benson quote if you like, but the time line speaks for itself from scripture.

We know there will be 6 seals or 1000 year periods in history.
We know, that our timeline from Chist to present is accurate and accounts for two of those. D&C 20:1 tells us this. No room for inaccuracy there.
The biblical time line accounts for the other 4 periods. It's true that a few things have to be estimated, but that does NOT allow for 230 years. Not even close.

Either we must conclude that:
A) The second coming is imminent.
B) The biblical time line contains some serious inaccuracies.

The church accepts the time line and it is frequently cited in church manuals, talks, etc. If you have some evidence that the bible time line is inaccurate to that level, then present it. Otherwise, we must assume the 6th seal is done. In that case, we're in the 7th seal and time is short.

I have no issue with the assertion that the second coming is close. I was only making the point that we have previous quotes suggesting that the second coming would happen within the lifetimes of people born 200 years ago. I agree we can chalk a lot of those up to the exuberance of the time, we should similarly be careful to evaluate our predictions with consideration for the bias our own excitement might impose.

I have no idea what close means in terms of years, it could be 200 years or it may be less then 1. I know we've been told to prepare and be ready for it today, so that is what I'm doing.

As far as the Biblical time line, you're mistaken in your assertion that the variance of the various dating estimates don't account for a 230 year difference (although I realize this isn't your core point). This probably deserves it's own thread, because otherwise it may spawn a massive tangent. In any case, you may consider researching the different dating estimates between the Masoretic, Samaritan and Septuagint texts of the Old Testament. I could check my materials at home, but I seem to recall potential variances of 500+ years between the various texts between Creation and the Flood. We've inherited the Masoretic text via the King James version, but I don't know that we want to stake our Second Coming predictions on the text preferences of Protestants who lived 500 years ago.

Edit: I see you added the time line for the Masoretic Text in your post. Just for reference for those who don't want to go root around, the difference between the various texts starts right away IIRC. While the Masoretic text says Seth was born in Adam's 130th year, I think the Septuagint puts it almost 100 years later.
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Re: Adam "born" 3760 BC, so we're 230 years from 7th seal?

Postby Rensai » Mon Aug 02, 2010 1:13 pm

Col. Flagg wrote:I have a video cassette that was produced by the church back in the '70's titled 'From Adam to Armageddon', which identifies timelines and events leading up to Christ's second coming. It clearly indicates that the second coming will occur after the 6th seal closes, but before the 7th opens. Thus, we are either at the end of the 6th seal or in between the closing and opening of the 6th & 7th. Either way, yeah, we're getting very close.


There must be a mistake there Col. I don't know if the mistake is with the tape or your memory, but D&C 77:13 says

13 Q. When are the things to be accomplished, which are written in the 9th chapter of Revelation?
A. They are to be accomplished after the opening of the seventh seal, before the coming of Christ.

Revelation 9 talks about the 5th and 6th angels doing their part to cleanse the earth. It covers Armageddon, and some other things.
We know that before those events, the first 4 angels do their part to cleanse the earth, and before that, there is the half an hour of silence.

I believe we're in that half an hour of silence period. I can't really prove that conclusively, but that's what fits the time line as its the first thing to occur when the 7th seal is opened. According to Bruce R. McConkie, that half hour of silence will be about 21 years of our time. If the time line is perfectly accurate, that would mean the seal opened up on the year 2000 and we are 10 years into that silence. I'm not saying that is the case, I don't know for sure, because there is a little wiggle room on the time line. But it is close. If we are in the half an hour of silence, then there is another 10 years for the cleansing and other events to take place because at the end of the half hour of silence the Lord will appear.

D&C, 88:95 wrote:95 And there shall be silence in heaven for the space of half an hour; and immediately after shall the curtain of heaven be unfolded, as a scroll is unfolded after it is rolled up, and the face of the Lord shall be unveiled;


We have about 11 years left until the second coming, IF the 7th seal opened on the year 2000. If not, then it might be off by a few years either direction to allow for some error in the time line. Either way, we're getting close. :)
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Re: Adam "born" 3760 BC, so we're 230 years from 7th seal?

Postby Rensai » Mon Aug 02, 2010 1:23 pm

Hyrcanus wrote:
Rensai wrote:I'm well aware that many members of the early church felt that the 2nd coming would come in their day. I attribute that to overzealousness and excitement about actually having a prophet on the earth again. Those were exciting times and there were a lot of amazing things going on. I don't think we can really comprehend what that period of time was like. I won't hold some inaccuracies against them. :)

I almost left that president Benson quote out for just that reason, but I believe he was accurate and that it is an exciting quote, so I wanted to share it. All that considered, I'd still have to respecfully disagree with you. I stand by what I said, 230 years is way too long. Forget the Benson quote if you like, but the time line speaks for itself from scripture.

We know there will be 6 seals or 1000 year periods in history.
We know, that our timeline from Chist to present is accurate and accounts for two of those. D&C 20:1 tells us this. No room for inaccuracy there.
The biblical time line accounts for the other 4 periods. It's true that a few things have to be estimated, but that does NOT allow for 230 years. Not even close.

Either we must conclude that:
A) The second coming is imminent.
B) The biblical time line contains some serious inaccuracies.

The church accepts the time line and it is frequently cited in church manuals, talks, etc. If you have some evidence that the bible time line is inaccurate to that level, then present it. Otherwise, we must assume the 6th seal is done. In that case, we're in the 7th seal and time is short.

I have no issue with the assertion that the second coming is close. I was only making the point that we have previous quotes suggesting that the second coming would happen within the lifetimes of people born 200 years ago. I agree we can chalk a lot of those up to the exuberance of the time, we should similarly be careful to evaluate our predictions with consideration for the bias our own excitement might impose.

I have no idea what close means in terms of years, it could be 200 years or it may be less then 1. I know we've been told to prepare and be ready for it today, so that is what I'm doing.

As far as the Biblical time line, you're mistaken in your assertion that the variance of the various dating estimates don't account for a 230 year difference (although I realize this isn't your core point). This probably deserves it's own thread, because otherwise it may spawn a massive tangent. In any case, you may consider researching the different dating estimates between the Masoretic, Samaritan and Septuagint texts of the Old Testament. I could check my materials at home, but I seem to recall potential variances of 500+ years between the various texts between Creation and the Flood. We've inherited the Masoretic text via the King James version, but I don't know that we want to stake our Second Coming predictions on the text preferences of Protestants who lived 500 years ago.

Edit: I see you added the time line for the Masoretic Text in your post. Just for reference for those who don't want to go root around, the difference between the various texts starts right away IIRC. While the Masoretic text says Seth was born in Adam's 130th year, I think the Septuagint puts it almost 100 years later.


I see what you are saying now Hyrcanus, but as I mentioned, our church and prophets use what you call the Masoretic time line. I haven't done any in depth research about different dating techniques for that reason. I figure if it's the time line used by our Church leaders, its correct or as close as we have anyway. Again, I am not saying it is 100% perfect. Further, using the example you cited, I can prove the "Septuagint" time line is incorrect.

The book of Moses was translated by Joseph Smith, thus it's accuracy is indisputable. It says
Moses 6:10-11 wrote:10 And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his own image, and called his name Seth.
11 And the days of Adam, after he had begotten Seth, were eight hundred years, and he begat many sons and daughters;

This corroborates that Seth was born when Adam was 130 years old, and Adam lived to be 930 years old. This matches perfectly with the time line I posted. How could any time line that doesn't match up with the book of Moses be correct?
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Re: Adam "born" 3760 BC, so we're 230 years from 7th seal?

Postby Hyrcanus » Mon Aug 02, 2010 1:54 pm

Rensai wrote:
Hyrcanus wrote:
Rensai wrote:I'm well aware that many members of the early church felt that the 2nd coming would come in their day. I attribute that to overzealousness and excitement about actually having a prophet on the earth again. Those were exciting times and there were a lot of amazing things going on. I don't think we can really comprehend what that period of time was like. I won't hold some inaccuracies against them. :)

I almost left that president Benson quote out for just that reason, but I believe he was accurate and that it is an exciting quote, so I wanted to share it. All that considered, I'd still have to respecfully disagree with you. I stand by what I said, 230 years is way too long. Forget the Benson quote if you like, but the time line speaks for itself from scripture.

We know there will be 6 seals or 1000 year periods in history.
We know, that our timeline from Chist to present is accurate and accounts for two of those. D&C 20:1 tells us this. No room for inaccuracy there.
The biblical time line accounts for the other 4 periods. It's true that a few things have to be estimated, but that does NOT allow for 230 years. Not even close.

Either we must conclude that:
A) The second coming is imminent.
B) The biblical time line contains some serious inaccuracies.

The church accepts the time line and it is frequently cited in church manuals, talks, etc. If you have some evidence that the bible time line is inaccurate to that level, then present it. Otherwise, we must assume the 6th seal is done. In that case, we're in the 7th seal and time is short.

I have no issue with the assertion that the second coming is close. I was only making the point that we have previous quotes suggesting that the second coming would happen within the lifetimes of people born 200 years ago. I agree we can chalk a lot of those up to the exuberance of the time, we should similarly be careful to evaluate our predictions with consideration for the bias our own excitement might impose.

I have no idea what close means in terms of years, it could be 200 years or it may be less then 1. I know we've been told to prepare and be ready for it today, so that is what I'm doing.

As far as the Biblical time line, you're mistaken in your assertion that the variance of the various dating estimates don't account for a 230 year difference (although I realize this isn't your core point). This probably deserves it's own thread, because otherwise it may spawn a massive tangent. In any case, you may consider researching the different dating estimates between the Masoretic, Samaritan and Septuagint texts of the Old Testament. I could check my materials at home, but I seem to recall potential variances of 500+ years between the various texts between Creation and the Flood. We've inherited the Masoretic text via the King James version, but I don't know that we want to stake our Second Coming predictions on the text preferences of Protestants who lived 500 years ago.

Edit: I see you added the time line for the Masoretic Text in your post. Just for reference for those who don't want to go root around, the difference between the various texts starts right away IIRC. While the Masoretic text says Seth was born in Adam's 130th year, I think the Septuagint puts it almost 100 years later.


I see what you are saying now Hyrcanus, but as I mentioned, our church and prophets use what you call the Masoretic time line. I haven't done any in depth research about different dating techniques for that reason. I figure if it's the time line used by our Church leaders, its correct or as close as we have anyway. Again, I am not saying it is 100% perfect. Further, using the example you cited, I can prove the "Septuagint" time line is incorrect.

The book of Moses was translated by Joseph Smith, thus it's accuracy is indisputable. It says
Moses 6:10-11 wrote:10 And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his own image, and called his name Seth.
11 And the days of Adam, after he had begotten Seth, were eight hundred years, and he begat many sons and daughters;

This corroborates that Seth was born when Adam was 130 years old, and Adam lived to be 930 years old. This matches perfectly with the time line I posted. How could any time line that doesn't match up with the book of Moses be correct?


This gets into the area of opinion, but I don't think the sections of the BoM or PoGP that were copied from the KJV are binding from a translation perspective. We've since learned that some of the chapters of Isaiah that we've copied in the BoM likely aren't the most accurate versions of the originals. I don't think that damages the credibility of the BoM, it just highlights that the accuracy of the extant Bibles we have isn't very good. As such, I don't subscribe to the Masoretic time line just because it was the only one available to Joseph Smith at the time.

Again, I'm only trying to highlight that the answer to the question of when the 2nd Coming is going to occur should be an unqualified "I don't know, but I'm preparing for it today", instead of trying to guess at dates and ranges. Historically that hasn't worked out well for us, I don't think it serves a useful purpose to continue the predictions.
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Re: Adam "born" 3760 BC, so we're 230 years from 7th seal?

Postby Rensai » Mon Aug 02, 2010 2:48 pm

Hyrcanus wrote:Again, I'm only trying to highlight that the answer to the question of when the 2nd Coming is going to occur should be an unqualified "I don't know, but I'm preparing for it today", instead of trying to guess at dates and ranges. Historically that hasn't worked out well for us, I don't think it serves a useful purpose to continue the predictions.


I agree that ultimately, "I don't know, but I'm preparing for it today" is the most accurate answer, but it also seems like a bit of a cop out to me too. We have been commanded to study the signs and watch for them. I find a lot of people who are saying we don't know when it's coming, or talk about the early saints mistake about the timing, etc are using it as an excuse not to study the signs at all. I am not saying that is your attitude, only that I have run into this frequently. I get very excited and enjoy studying the signs, so it has come up in conversation a lot with family and friends over the years. I've found that almost without exception, those who are most ignorant on the subject love to fall back on the "we can't know for sure exactly when it is going to happen" argument. So they rationalize not studying or getting food storage at all. Exactly opposite of what they should be doing. Conversely, those who are interested in studying current events and comparing them to the signs and trying to estimate how close we are, are invariably the ones who have their food storage and are preparing. So I would not say discussing the time line doesn't serve a useful purpose. We won't know the exact date until it happens, but it does help us keep the second coming in mind and keep some of us excited about studying and preparing for it. :) When you get right down to it, the whole purpose of the signs are so we can know that the second coming is close and prepare. Speculation about the timing is a natural part of that.
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Re: Adam "born" 3760 BC, so we're 230 years from 7th seal?

Postby Rensai » Mon Aug 02, 2010 3:17 pm

Hyrcanus wrote:This gets into the area of opinion, but I don't think the sections of the BoM or PoGP that were copied from the KJV are binding from a translation perspective.

I have to disagree. They are canonized scripture. If they are not binding, then what do you consider binding??

Hyrcanus wrote:I don't subscribe to the Masoretic time line just because it was the only one available to Joseph Smith at the time.

Neither do I, I subscribe to it because Joseph was correcting the corrupted book of genesis for the Lord. I believe that like other parts of Moses, the Lord would have revealed what should have been in that book, even if it was missing entirely or otherwise unknown in Joseph's day. I won't buy that Joseph's ability to properly correct the book of Genesis' time line was impaired because the time line "was the only one available". I seem to recall he revealed a lot of things that were not available in his day. The time line is no different.

I am sure I would soon start questioning the BoM, D&C, and first vision if I let myself question Joseph's other revelations. I've been down that road before and I won't make that mistake again. Anything in the bible that contradicts other scripture I'm willing to chalk up to mistranslation, but I won't let myself question other scripture revealed through Joseph. My poor faith can't take that, so I keep it simple. Either the scripture Joseph translated/revealed is correct, or it is not. It's all or nothing for me. :)
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Re: Adam "born" 3760 BC, so we're 230 years from 7th seal?

Postby Hyrcanus » Mon Aug 02, 2010 3:42 pm

Rensai wrote:
Hyrcanus wrote:This gets into the area of opinion, but I don't think the sections of the BoM or PoGP that were copied from the KJV are binding from a translation perspective.

I have to disagree. They are canonized scripture. If they are not binding, then what do you consider binding??

Hyrcanus wrote:I don't subscribe to the Masoretic time line just because it was the only one available to Joseph Smith at the time.

Neither do I, I subscribe to it because Joseph was correcting the corrupted book of genesis for the Lord. I believe that like other parts of Moses, the Lord would have revealed what should have been in that book, even if it was missing entirely or otherwise unknown in Joseph's day. I won't buy that Joseph's ability to properly correct the book of Genesis' time line was impaired because the time line "was the only one available". I seem to recall he revealed a lot of things that were not available in his day. The time line is no different.

I am sure I would soon start questioning the BoM, D&C, and first vision if I let myself question Joseph's other revelations. I've been down that road before and I won't make that mistake again. Anything in the bible that contradicts other scripture I'm willing to chalk up to mistranslation, but I won't let myself question other scripture revealed through Joseph. My poor faith can't take that, so I keep it simple. Either the scripture Joseph translated/revealed is correct, or it is not. It's all or nothing for me. :)


We know Joseph chose to copy from the KJV, Royal Skousen's textual analysis project reveals that he even copied spelling errors from his particular Bible. I don't think the has any effect on the value or sacredness of the scriptures, I just view it as a practical reality of his process. I don't think that has to be perfect in order for us to consider the scriptures broadly binding. I also don't know his process (nor does anyone else), did he feel inspired to copy the text and edit it where appropriate? Did he dictate the text and pause to modify when he felt inspired? We know many changes have been made over the years to clarify/update the text, I don't think it a stretch that we might go back and adjust the time line if a clearly superior version became evident. John Tvetdness (sp?) wrote an interesting article on the topic of the BoM chapters containing KJV text a few years ago, if you're interested in some of the details. I absolutely recognize this ultimately is just a difference of opinion, so we can just agree to disagree if you're amicable to that.

I agree with your point about continuing to study the signs and be vigilant. I definitely don't want to be understood as suggesting otherwise. Either extreme has problems. Ask those JW's that sold their homes back in 1975 if you're looking for examples of believing too strongly in a specific time line. Again, I realize you aren't preaching anything nearly that strict, it's just my plea for moderation.
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Re: Adam "born" 3760 BC, so we're 230 years from 7th seal?

Postby Carlos » Mon Aug 02, 2010 4:21 pm

Rensai wrote:I believe we're in that half an hour of silence period. I can't really prove that conclusively, but that's what fits the time line as its the first thing to occur when the 7th seal is opened. According to Bruce R. McConkie, that half hour of silence will be about 21 years of our time. If the time line is perfectly accurate, that would mean the seal opened up on the year 2000 and we are 10 years into that silence. I'm not saying that is the case, I don't know for sure, because there is a little wiggle room on the time line. But it is close. If we are in the half an hour of silence, then there is another 10 years for the cleansing and other events to take place because at the end of the half hour of silence the Lord will appear.

D&C, 88:95 wrote:95 And there shall be silence in heaven for the space of half an hour; and immediately after shall the curtain of heaven be unfolded, as a scroll is unfolded after it is rolled up, and the face of the Lord shall be unveiled;


We have about 11 years left until the second coming, IF the 7th seal opened on the year 2000. If not, then it might be off by a few years either direction to allow for some error in the time line. Either way, we're getting close. :)

I have reason to suspect that the 1/2 hour spoken of in Sec 88 is different than that of Rev 8. First, the scripture doesn't equate the two. Second, no one can explain or attach (literally of metaphorically) a physical interpretation of what has occurred or is occurring to fulfill the 'silence' prophecy. Third, the trumpets which follow in Sec 88 serve a very different purpose than the trumpets and vials of Rev. Sec 88 trumpets declare millennial events (resurrections, binding and loosening of Satan) which occur after His coming in glory. Rev trumpets declare events which are part of the cleansing process which separate believers from a collapsing Babylon prior to his coming . I find is no scriptural reason to support that the 2 half hours of silence are concurrent.

I happen to believe that we are in the 7th seal. Do you have an explanation of the 6th seal prophecy which John saw?

Now, if someone can accurately explain these words... silence, heaven, space, and 1/2 hour... eit
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Re: Adam "born" 3760 BC, so we're 230 years from 7th seal?

Postby sbsion » Mon Aug 02, 2010 5:29 pm

Adam was born of parents on another planet.....hmmmmmmmm who knows when, or how old he was when he came to this earth with his wives and family :mrgreen:
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Re: Adam "born" 3760 BC, so we're 230 years from 7th seal?

Postby Rensai » Mon Aug 02, 2010 6:01 pm

Carlos wrote:I have reason to suspect that the 1/2 hour spoken of in Sec 88 is different than that of Rev 8. First, the scripture doesn't equate the two.

I'm not sure why you are saying that. Can you explain? It seems plain to me they are talking about the same event, the same half hour of silence. Look at D&C 88:95 in context.

84 Therefore, tarry ye, and labor diligently, that you may be perfected in your ministry to go forth among the aGentiles for the last time, as many as the mouth of the Lord shall name, to bbind up the law and cseal up the testimony, and to prepare the saints for the hour of judgment which is to come;
85 That their souls may escape the wrath of God, the adesolation of abomination which awaits the wicked, both in this world and in the world to come. Verily, I say unto you, let those who are not the bfirst elders continue in the vineyard until the mouth of the Lord shall ccall them, for their time is not yet come; their garments are not dclean from the blood of this generation.
86 Abide ye in the aliberty wherewith ye are made bfree; centangle not yourselves in dsin, but let your hands be eclean, until the Lord comes.
87 For not many days hence and the aearth shall btremble and reel to and fro as a drunken man; and the csun shall dhide his face, and shall refuse to give light; and the moon shall be bathed in eblood; and the stars shall become exceedingly angry, and shall fcast themselves down as a fig that falleth from off a fig-tree.
88 And after your atestimony cometh wrath and indignation upon the people.
89 For after your testimony cometh the testimony of aearthquakes, that shall cause groanings in the midst of her, and men shall fall upon the ground and shall not be able to stand.
90 And also cometh the testimony of the avoice of thunderings, and the voice of lightnings, and the voice of tempests, and the voice of the waves of the sea heaving themselves beyond their bounds.
91 And all things shall be in acommotion; and surely, men’s bhearts shall fail them; for fear shall come upon all people.
92 And aangels shall fly through the midst of heaven, crying with a loud voice, sounding the trump of God, saying: Prepare ye, prepare ye, O inhabitants of the earth; for the bjudgment of our God is come. Behold, and lo, the cBridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
93 And immediately there shall appear a agreat sign in heaven, and all people shall see it together.
94 And another angel shall sound his trump, saying: That agreat bchurch, the cmother of abominations, that made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her dfornication, that epersecuteth the saints of God, that shed their blood—she who sitteth upon many waters, and upon the islands of the sea—behold, she is the ftares of the earth; she is bound in bundles; her bands are made strong, no man can loose them; therefore, she is ready to be burned. And he shall sound his trump both long and loud, and all nations shall hear it.
95 And there shall be asilence in bheaven for the space of half an hour; and immediately after shall the curtain of heaven be unfolded, as a cscroll is unfolded after it is rolled up, and the dface of the Lord shall be unveiled;

Look at the preceding verses. We have prophecy about earthquakes, the moon turning to blood, etc. It looks to me like it is talking about the exact same events as revelations with some different wording. I don't see any reason to think it is a different half hour of silence.

Second, no one can explain or attach (literally of metaphorically) a physical interpretation of what has occurred or is occurring to fulfill the 'silence' prophecy.

Because it doesn't say. I can show you Cleon Skousen's idea, it's just speculation, but its the best explanation I've heard.

Cleon Skousen wrote:Why is there suddenly “silence in heaven” when the SEVENTH seal is opened?

Apparently there is a great deal of furious activity in heaven right up to the time the seventh seal is opened. The Priesthood of this dispensation are required to work at a tremendous pace to get ready for the Second Coming. This was explained to Wilford Woodruff the last time he was allowed to see Joseph Smith in the spirit world. He says:

“Joseph Smith continued visiting myself and others up to a certain time and then it stopped. The last time I saw him was in heaven. In the night vision I saw him at the door of the temple in heaven. He came and spoke to me. He said he could not stop to talk with me because he was in a hurry. The next man I met was Father Smith; he could not talk with me because he was in a hurry . I met a half a dozen brethren who had held high positions on earth and none of them could stop to talk with me because they were in a hurry. I was much astonished. By and by I saw the Prophet again, and I got the privilege to ask him a question. ‘Now,’ said I, ‘I want to know why you’re in a hurry. I have been in a hurry all through my life but I expected my hurry would be over when I got into the kingdom of heaven, if I ever did.’ Joseph said, ‘I will tell you, Brother Woodruff, every dispensation that has had the Priesthood on the earth and has gone into the celestial kingdom, has had a certain amount of work to do to prepare to go to the earth with the Savior when He goes to reign on the earth. Each dispensation has had ample time to do this work. We have not. We are the last dispensation, and so much work has to be done and we need to be in a hurry in order to accomplish it.’ Of course, that was satisfactory with me, but it was a new doctrine to me.” (N. B. Lundwall, Temples of the Most High, 1941, p. 291—292; original source: The Deseret Weekly News, vol. 53, No. 21, November 7, 1896)

Joseph Smith made it plain to Wilford Woodruff that the Priesthood of this dispensation are working under a fantastic deadline to teach everyone who has died without the gospel since the _apostolic _ times. This task has to be completed by the time of ‘the opening of the seventh seal when the hosts of heaven will have a new task connected with the final preparation and cleansing of the earth for the Second Coming.

This makes as good a sense as anything to me, but we really weren't told anything about the half an hour of silence.

Carlos wrote:I happen to believe that we are in the 7th seal. Do you have an explanation of the 6th seal prophecy which John saw?

I've heard several good explanations. I don't know which, if any is correct. John is so cryptic its hard to be sure, but I do agree with you that we are likely in the 7th seal. The time line and other evidence supports that imho.
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Re: Adam "born" 3760 BC, so we're 230 years from 7th seal?

Postby Carlos » Mon Aug 02, 2010 7:23 pm

Rensai wrote:
Carlos wrote:I have reason to suspect that the 1/2 hour spoken of in Sec 88 is different than that of Rev 8. First, the scripture doesn't equate the two.

I'm not sure why you are saying that. Can you explain? (Sec 88 does not quote Rev 8 as a source or reference point to remove any doubt) It seems plain to me they are talking about the same event, the same half hour of silence. Look at D&C 88:95 in context.


84 Therefore, tarry ye, and labor diligently, that you may be perfected in your ministry to go forth among the aGentiles for the last time, as many as the mouth of the Lord shall name, to bbind up the law and cseal up the testimony, and to prepare the saints for the hour of judgment which is to come;
85 That their souls may escape the wrath of God, the adesolation of abomination which awaits the wicked, both in this world and in the world to come. Verily, I say unto you, let those who are not the bfirst elders continue in the vineyard until the mouth of the Lord shall ccall them, for their time is not yet come; their garments are not dclean from the blood of this generation.
86 Abide ye in the aliberty wherewith ye are made bfree; centangle not yourselves in dsin, but let your hands be eclean, until the Lord comes.
87 For not many days hence and the aearth shall btremble and reel to and fro as a drunken man; and the csun shall dhide his face, and shall refuse to give light; and the moon shall be bathed in eblood; and the stars shall become exceedingly angry, and shall fcast themselves down as a fig that falleth from off a fig-tree.
88 And after your atestimony cometh wrath and indignation upon the people.
89 For after your testimony cometh the testimony of aearthquakes, that shall cause groanings in the midst of her, and men shall fall upon the ground and shall not be able to stand.
90 And also cometh the testimony of the avoice of thunderings, and the voice of lightnings, and the voice of tempests, and the voice of the waves of the sea heaving themselves beyond their bounds.
91 And all things shall be in acommotion; and surely, men’s bhearts shall fail them; for fear shall come upon all people.
92 And aangels shall fly through the midst of heaven, crying with a loud voice, sounding the trump of God, saying: Prepare ye, prepare ye, O inhabitants of the earth; for the bjudgment of our God is come. Behold, and lo, the cBridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
93 And immediately there shall appear a agreat sign in heaven, and all people shall see it together.
94 And another angel shall sound his trump, saying: That agreat bchurch, the cmother of abominations, that made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her dfornication, that epersecuteth the saints of God, that shed their blood—she who sitteth upon many waters, and upon the islands of the sea—behold, she is the ftares of the earth; she is bound in bundles; her bands are made strong, no man can loose them; therefore, she is ready to be burned. And he shall sound his trump both long and loud, and all nations shall hear it.
95 And there shall be asilence in bheaven for the space of half an hour; and immediately after shall the curtain of heaven be unfolded, as a cscroll is unfolded after it is rolled up, and the dface of the Lord shall be unveiled;

Look at the preceding verses. We have prophecy about earthquakes, the moon turning to blood, etc. It looks to me like it is talking about the exact same events as revelations with some different wording. I don't see any reason to think it is a different half hour of silence.
My point... in 88 all the preceeding verses are about the upheavals which cleanse believers and destroy babylon. After the destruction of babylon, silence comes, then a description of various classes of resurrections. In Rev, destructions and cleansing (vials and trumpets) come after the silence. Big difference in sequence.
Second, no one can explain or attach (literally of metaphorically) a physical interpretation of what has occurred or is occurring to fulfill the 'silence' prophecy.

Because it doesn't say. I can show you Cleon Skousen's idea, it's just speculation, but its the best explanation I've heard.

Cleon Skousen wrote:Why is there suddenly “silence in heaven” when the SEVENTH seal is opened?

Apparently there is a great deal of furious activity in heaven right up to the time the seventh seal is opened. The Priesthood of this dispensation are required to work at a tremendous pace to get ready for the Second Coming. This was explained to Wilford Woodruff the last time he was allowed to see Joseph Smith in the spirit world. He says:

“Joseph Smith continued visiting myself and others up to a certain time and then it stopped. The last time I saw him was in heaven. In the night vision I saw him at the door of the temple in heaven. He came and spoke to me. He said he could not stop to talk with me because he was in a hurry. The next man I met was Father Smith; he could not talk with me because he was in a hurry . I met a half a dozen brethren who had held high positions on earth and none of them could stop to talk with me because they were in a hurry. I was much astonished. By and by I saw the Prophet again, and I got the privilege to ask him a question. ‘Now,’ said I, ‘I want to know why you’re in a hurry. I have been in a hurry all through my life but I expected my hurry would be over when I got into the kingdom of heaven, if I ever did.’ Joseph said, ‘I will tell you, Brother Woodruff, every dispensation that has had the Priesthood on the earth and has gone into the celestial kingdom, has had a certain amount of work to do to prepare to go to the earth with the Savior when He goes to reign on the earth. Each dispensation has had ample time to do this work. We have not. We are the last dispensation, and so much work has to be done and we need to be in a hurry in order to accomplish it.’ Of course, that was satisfactory with me, but it was a new doctrine to me.” (N. B. Lundwall, Temples of the Most High, 1941, p. 291—292; original source: The Deseret Weekly News, vol. 53, No. 21, November 7, 1896)

Joseph Smith made it plain to Wilford Woodruff that the Priesthood of this dispensation are working under a fantastic deadline to teach everyone who has died without the gospel since the _apostolic _ times. This task has to be completed by the time of ‘the opening of the seventh seal when the hosts of heaven will have a new task connected with the final preparation and cleansing of the earth for the Second Coming.

This makes as good a sense as anything to me, but we really weren't told anything about the half an hour of silence.
Skousen's speculative explanation makes sense for Sec 88, but not for Rev. 8. John's silence is prior to all hell breaking loose on earth. The spirit world should be working overtime to prepare for the scheduled increase of population in their sphere. Also, one could argue the the spirit world is not 'heaven'. Some equate 'heaven' to where God dwells. Maybe the scripture is referring to 'heaven' on earth, those who are subject to the 'kingdom of heaven'..."Blessed are the poor in spirit who come unto me, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven".

Carlos wrote:I happen to believe that we are in the 7th seal. Do you have an explanation of the 6th seal prophecy which John saw?

I've heard several good explanations. I don't know which, if any is correct. John is so cryptic its hard to be sure, but I do agree with you that we are likely in the 7th seal. The time line and other evidence supports that imho.
Cryptic is the key. If the 6th seal is come and gone, then the narrative elements of sun, moon, stars, earthquake, mountains, islands, caves, rocks, and heavens ... must have metaphoric explanations founded in scripture. I contend that if one can unravel the 6th seal (what John saw that occurred in the past 1000 years), then one has a good start on understanding the cryptic nature of the 7th seal.


I am not sure about the meaning of the half hour of silence. Skousen's sounds reasonable. One more explanation to consider is this. When was the last time a revelation was added to the standard works? Official Declaration 2 on the priesthood to all worthy males was given in Sept of 1978. After 23 years of 'silence', in 2001, 9/11 comes along as a pivotal event which precipitates our current "awful situation" which has all the elements of Babylon's demise... hopefully :) I personally am motivated to conclude that we are living John's vision of the 7th seal.
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Re: Adam "born" 3760 BC, so we're 230 years from 7th seal?

Postby Rensai » Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:08 pm

Carlos wrote:
Rensai wrote:
Carlos wrote:I have reason to suspect that the 1/2 hour spoken of in Sec 88 is different than that of Rev 8. First, the scripture doesn't equate the two.

I'm not sure why you are saying that. Can you explain? (Sec 88 does not quote Rev 8 as a source or reference point to remove any doubt) It seems plain to me they are talking about the same event, the same half hour of silence. Look at D&C 88:95 in context.


84 Therefore, tarry ye, and labor diligently, that you may be perfected in your ministry to go forth among the aGentiles for the last time, as many as the mouth of the Lord shall name, to bbind up the law and cseal up the testimony, and to prepare the saints for the hour of judgment which is to come;
85 That their souls may escape the wrath of God, the adesolation of abomination which awaits the wicked, both in this world and in the world to come. Verily, I say unto you, let those who are not the bfirst elders continue in the vineyard until the mouth of the Lord shall ccall them, for their time is not yet come; their garments are not dclean from the blood of this generation.
86 Abide ye in the aliberty wherewith ye are made bfree; centangle not yourselves in dsin, but let your hands be eclean, until the Lord comes.
87 For not many days hence and the aearth shall btremble and reel to and fro as a drunken man; and the csun shall dhide his face, and shall refuse to give light; and the moon shall be bathed in eblood; and the stars shall become exceedingly angry, and shall fcast themselves down as a fig that falleth from off a fig-tree.
88 And after your atestimony cometh wrath and indignation upon the people.
89 For after your testimony cometh the testimony of aearthquakes, that shall cause groanings in the midst of her, and men shall fall upon the ground and shall not be able to stand.
90 And also cometh the testimony of the avoice of thunderings, and the voice of lightnings, and the voice of tempests, and the voice of the waves of the sea heaving themselves beyond their bounds.
91 And all things shall be in acommotion; and surely, men’s bhearts shall fail them; for fear shall come upon all people.
92 And aangels shall fly through the midst of heaven, crying with a loud voice, sounding the trump of God, saying: Prepare ye, prepare ye, O inhabitants of the earth; for the bjudgment of our God is come. Behold, and lo, the cBridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
93 And immediately there shall appear a agreat sign in heaven, and all people shall see it together.
94 And another angel shall sound his trump, saying: That agreat bchurch, the cmother of abominations, that made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her dfornication, that epersecuteth the saints of God, that shed their blood—she who sitteth upon many waters, and upon the islands of the sea—behold, she is the ftares of the earth; she is bound in bundles; her bands are made strong, no man can loose them; therefore, she is ready to be burned. And he shall sound his trump both long and loud, and all nations shall hear it.
95 And there shall be asilence in bheaven for the space of half an hour; and immediately after shall the curtain of heaven be unfolded, as a cscroll is unfolded after it is rolled up, and the dface of the Lord shall be unveiled;

Look at the preceding verses. We have prophecy about earthquakes, the moon turning to blood, etc. It looks to me like it is talking about the exact same events as revelations with some different wording. I don't see any reason to think it is a different half hour of silence.
My point... in 88 all the preceeding verses are about the upheavals which cleanse believers and destroy babylon. After the destruction of babylon, silence comes, then a description of various classes of resurrections. In Rev, destructions and cleansing (vials and trumpets) come after the silence. Big difference in sequence.
Second, no one can explain or attach (literally of metaphorically) a physical interpretation of what has occurred or is occurring to fulfill the 'silence' prophecy.

Because it doesn't say. I can show you Cleon Skousen's idea, it's just speculation, but its the best explanation I've heard.

Cleon Skousen wrote:Why is there suddenly “silence in heaven” when the SEVENTH seal is opened?

Apparently there is a great deal of furious activity in heaven right up to the time the seventh seal is opened. The Priesthood of this dispensation are required to work at a tremendous pace to get ready for the Second Coming. This was explained to Wilford Woodruff the last time he was allowed to see Joseph Smith in the spirit world. He says:

“Joseph Smith continued visiting myself and others up to a certain time and then it stopped. The last time I saw him was in heaven. In the night vision I saw him at the door of the temple in heaven. He came and spoke to me. He said he could not stop to talk with me because he was in a hurry. The next man I met was Father Smith; he could not talk with me because he was in a hurry . I met a half a dozen brethren who had held high positions on earth and none of them could stop to talk with me because they were in a hurry. I was much astonished. By and by I saw the Prophet again, and I got the privilege to ask him a question. ‘Now,’ said I, ‘I want to know why you’re in a hurry. I have been in a hurry all through my life but I expected my hurry would be over when I got into the kingdom of heaven, if I ever did.’ Joseph said, ‘I will tell you, Brother Woodruff, every dispensation that has had the Priesthood on the earth and has gone into the celestial kingdom, has had a certain amount of work to do to prepare to go to the earth with the Savior when He goes to reign on the earth. Each dispensation has had ample time to do this work. We have not. We are the last dispensation, and so much work has to be done and we need to be in a hurry in order to accomplish it.’ Of course, that was satisfactory with me, but it was a new doctrine to me.” (N. B. Lundwall, Temples of the Most High, 1941, p. 291—292; original source: The Deseret Weekly News, vol. 53, No. 21, November 7, 1896)

Joseph Smith made it plain to Wilford Woodruff that the Priesthood of this dispensation are working under a fantastic deadline to teach everyone who has died without the gospel since the _apostolic _ times. This task has to be completed by the time of ‘the opening of the seventh seal when the hosts of heaven will have a new task connected with the final preparation and cleansing of the earth for the Second Coming.

This makes as good a sense as anything to me, but we really weren't told anything about the half an hour of silence.
Skousen's speculative explanation makes sense for Sec 88, but not for Rev. 8. John's silence is prior to all hell breaking loose on earth. The spirit world should be working overtime to prepare for the scheduled increase of population in their sphere. Also, one could argue the the spirit world is not 'heaven'. Some equate 'heaven' to where God dwells. Maybe the scripture is referring to 'heaven' on earth, those who are subject to the 'kingdom of heaven'..."Blessed are the poor in spirit who come unto me, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven".

Carlos wrote:I happen to believe that we are in the 7th seal. Do you have an explanation of the 6th seal prophecy which John saw?

I've heard several good explanations. I don't know which, if any is correct. John is so cryptic its hard to be sure, but I do agree with you that we are likely in the 7th seal. The time line and other evidence supports that imho.
Cryptic is the key. If the 6th seal is come and gone, then the narrative elements of sun, moon, stars, earthquake, mountains, islands, caves, rocks, and heavens ... must have metaphoric explanations founded in scripture. I contend that if one can unravel the 6th seal (what John saw that occurred in the past 1000 years), then one has a good start on understanding the cryptic nature of the 7th seal.


I am not sure about the meaning of the half hour of silence. Skousen's sounds reasonable. One more explanation to consider is this. When was the last time a revelation was added to the standard works? Official Declaration 2 on the priesthood to all worthy males was given in Sept of 1978. After 23 years of 'silence', in 2001, 9/11 comes along as a pivotal event which precipitates our current "awful situation" which has all the elements of Babylon's demise... hopefully :) I personally am motivated to conclude that we are living John's vision of the 7th seal.


hmm, you make some interesting points Carlos. Looks like I need to do some more studying on all this. :)
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Re: Adam "born" 3760 BC, so we're 230 years from 7th seal?

Postby NoGreaterLove » Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:40 am

After the destruction of babylon


Here is what is confusing you. The destruction does not occur before the 1/2 hour of silence. Re read the exact quote of the scripture. It is bound in bundles and ready to be burned. Big difference.
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Re: Adam "born" 3760 BC, so we're 230 years from 7th seal?

Postby pjbrownie » Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:54 am

To all those out there, why 3760? Has anyone found a suitable answer at least from a non-Mormon perspective? I couldn't find one.

As far as the seals go, I'm personally convinced that if you want to know you have to study and ponder the scriptures like none else. This includes a thorough study of Isaiah. Have the sixth seal signs already concluded? If you subscribe to the year 2,000 being the opening of the seventh seal, you must, and the signs are obviously not as obvious. I've been more persuaded lately to see things this way as the other seals deal with events that span decades and centuries, why not the sixth seal? Blood, fire, and vapors of smoke? Check. Earthquakes in diverse places? Check. Maybe we're in the seventh seal. The year thing doesn't bother me, because the Church doesn't subscribe to an exact year on the seal change, just an about or around the year.

On the other hand, I'm still convinced we're in the death throws of the times of the Gentiles, which seem to equate dispensation-ally to the sixth seal. The cleansing of America prepares Zion, and would not those calamities fit as a warning signal of the imminent coming of the Savior in about 23 or so years (half hour of silence?). To study Isaiah and the house of Israel and the mission of Zion AFTER it is redeemed from Babylon, there needs to be a preparation and time to accomplish these things before the trumps and vials that precede Armageddon and seem to be the signature events of the seventh seal. We cannot forget Zion redeemed, and this seems to be a sticky point that we often neglect. The Lord saves Zion from death, cleanses it, prepares its homeland, and destroys the wicked from off the land in some rather violent and calamitous means. This could be the sixth seal prophecies coming to pass in a more destructive way than the subtle timelines we sometimes view.
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Re: Adam "born" 3760 BC, so we're 230 years from 7th seal?

Postby Hyrcanus » Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:54 am

pjbrownie wrote:To all those out there, why 3760? Has anyone found a suitable answer at least from a non-Mormon perspective? I couldn't find one.

I meant to answer this in my earlier post, but got distracted. 3760 is a date calculated by a Jewish Rabbi Halafalta (or something close to that) in the second century AD. It's been largely inherited and accepted in protestant tradition. As far as the way they came up with that date it gets fairly complicated. The internal chronology of any of the texts is pretty good, but they each have some problems, requiring guessing at the exact time that passed. Further, there is a mountain of Jewish tradition that the date is built on that affects the date somewhat as well. There is still lots of debate about the exact strict date of creation. In the last century, as it has become clearer that the extant versions of the Bible have some fairly large inconsistencies with older texts being found, the date estimations have started to fluctuate quite a bit.

Edit:
pjbrownie wrote:If 3760 BC Hebrew is 4004 BC Gregorian, how come the Hebrew year is 5770 and the Gregorian year is 2010? Something seems out of step for me.


3760 BC is the above discussed Hebrew creation date translated into the Gregorian calendar. The "real" Hebrew date counts creation as the start date and goes straight up from there, they don't shift at the meridian of time as the Gregorian calendar does. So 3,760 years plus another 2,010 equals 5,770 years.

Hope that helps.
Last edited by Hyrcanus on Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Adam "born" 3760 BC, so we're 230 years from 7th seal?

Postby buffalo_girl » Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:19 am

These last days time-line discussions make my head spin!

Please do not overlook Revelation 8 in regard to time concepts after the Seventh Seal was opened:

12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!


I, too, am of the opinion that the Seventh Seal has been opened. The Lord is 'holpen with a little help' as we plunge into a time of trouble never before experienced on Earth.

Matthew 24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

Daniel 11
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to atry them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

Daniel 12
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.


Compare Revelations 9 with Joel 2. The footnotes actually are cross-referenced.

As President Hinckley told us in one of the last General Conferences at which he presided, "I've told you all I have to tell you." (paraphrased)

I wonder if the 1/2 hour of silence isn't the time period in which we must be worthy of living and acting as one with the Creator. We are no longer 'little children' waiting to be fed sweetened milk; rather, we are 'free agents' confident in Priesthood Power and Authority to act in God's name in concert with His Will.

The inherent challenge is to avoid being flattered into corruption as observed by Daniel above.
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Re: Adam "born" 3760 BC, so we're 230 years from 7th seal?

Postby durangout » Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:28 am

buffalo_girl wrote:
I wonder if the 1/2 hour of silence isn't the time period in which we must be worthy of living and acting as one with the Creator. We are no longer 'little children' waiting to be fed sweetened milk; rather, we are 'free agents' confident in Priesthood Power and Authority to act in God's name in concert with His Will.

The inherent challenge is to avoid being flattered into corruption as observed by Daniel above.


I think along the same lines as you. The 1/2 hr of silence, I think, is the final prepratory period for us to prepare ourseleves (spiritually and phyically) before the cleasning begins.
Revelation 7:16-17
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Re: Adam "born" 3760 BC, so we're 230 years from 7th seal?

Postby sbsion » Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:48 am

bottomline, Christ will appear and make himself known to begin the millenium on April 6th 20xx, who cares about all the rest, RUReadY? have you repented and recieve of his fullness, is the atonement in full force in your life?
There are no mysteries, only undiscovered truths, have you found one today?
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Re: Adam "born" 3760 BC, so we're 230 years from 7th seal?

Postby Rensai » Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:01 am

durangout wrote:
buffalo_girl wrote:
I wonder if the 1/2 hour of silence isn't the time period in which we must be worthy of living and acting as one with the Creator. We are no longer 'little children' waiting to be fed sweetened milk; rather, we are 'free agents' confident in Priesthood Power and Authority to act in God's name in concert with His Will.

The inherent challenge is to avoid being flattered into corruption as observed by Daniel above.


I think along the same lines as you. The 1/2 hr of silence, I think, is the final prepratory period for us to prepare ourseleves (spiritually and phyically) before the cleasning begins.


If the half hour of silence in revelations is the same as that in D&C 88 ( I think it is) then the cleansing has to happen during it. It cannot be a period just to prepare.
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Re: Adam "born" 3760 BC, so we're 230 years from 7th seal?

Postby Wilford » Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:17 am

pjbrownie wrote:I've seen this fact that Adam was born in 3760 BC, converted at 4004 BC. Where do we find this stuff conclusively or is it all conjecture. If Adam were born in 3760 it would make the true year 2,000 almost 230 years to the future. Could this be possible? Are we waiting for an event that neither our children, grandchildren, or great-grandchildren will see? Can anyone help me out with this Hebrew calendar stuff. It 3760 BC Hebrew is 4004 BC Gregorian, how come the Hebrew year is 5770 and the Gregorian year is 2010? Something seems out of step for me.

Are you dating from Adam's birth or Adam's fall? Time didn't start until after the fall.
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Re: Adam "born" 3760 BC, so we're 230 years from 7th seal?

Postby Original_Intent » Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:23 am

I feel that we have a few years. I will say I have felt very strange this past few days...it just feels like something BIG is on the verge of happening. Not sure if false flag or natural disaster or major sign of the times, but again I just get the feeling of something imminent and huge. I have been feeling this way since Sunday, and have never experienced any sensation quite like it ever before.
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Re: Adam "born" 3760 BC, so we're 230 years from 7th seal?

Postby LukeAir2008 » Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:26 am

Wilford wrote:
pjbrownie wrote:I've seen this fact that Adam was born in 3760 BC, converted at 4004 BC. Where do we find this stuff conclusively or is it all conjecture. If Adam were born in 3760 it would make the true year 2,000 almost 230 years to the future. Could this be possible? Are we waiting for an event that neither our children, grandchildren, or great-grandchildren will see? Can anyone help me out with this Hebrew calendar stuff. It 3760 BC Hebrew is 4004 BC Gregorian, how come the Hebrew year is 5770 and the Gregorian year is 2010? Something seems out of step for me.

Are you dating from Adam's birth or Adam's fall? Time didn't start until after the fall.


3760 BC came after 4004 BC. 2000 AD is based on Christ's birth in 1 BC so its totally unconnected to Adam's supposed birth date.

Its the date of the Fall which is relevant to the earths temporal existence and so if it took place in 4004 BC a period of six thousand years would take us to 1996 AD.

If Christ was born in 1 BC , received the Priesthood in 11 AD, and ascended back to his Father in 33 AD then the dates 2000 AD, 2011 AD and 2033 AD are all extremely relevant. :D
The world is governed by very different personages from what is imagined by those who are not behind the scenes.
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Re: Adam "born" 3760 BC, so we're 230 years from 7th seal?

Postby Original_Intent » Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:28 am

Christ was born in 1 AD, not 1 BC. Just FYI.
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Re: Adam "born" 3760 BC, so we're 230 years from 7th seal?

Postby LukeAir2008 » Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:35 am

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?h ... 82620aRCRD

Q. Do we know by revelation that Christ was born on April 6? If so, then why do we celebrate the traditional Christian Christmas?

Roger A. Hendrix, “Questions and Answers,” Tambuli, Jan. 1983, 15–16

Roger A. Hendrix, teacher support consultant, Church Educational System, Southern California; member of Palos Verdes California Stake presidency:

Through the years there have been varying thoughts on the fragmentary information we have on the subject. Elder James E. Talmage suggested the possibility in Jesus the Christ that the Savior was born on April 6, 1 BC. He based his conclusion on the understanding that the Savior was born in the spring and in Doctrine and Covenants 20:1, which speaks of the Church being organized “one thousand eight hundred and thirty years since the coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the flesh.” April 6 was the day of the formal organization of the Church.
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