I will get you the quotes a little later, but this is a really interesting and disturbing tangent you have taken.
You seem to be saying nothing really matters, because we all just repent in the end. Am I understanding you correctly?
Now why would you call our God given ability to repent (and be forgiven!) disturbing? Interesting yes, but-- disturbing??
Please, I have not said "nothing really matters," I do not believe that!
I believe Faith, Repentance, Baptism, being cleansed by the Holy Ghost and learning correct knowledge matters!
Nephi, quoting those who are incorrect in their understanding of doctrine (2 Nephi 28) is explaining that they are wrong because they expect forgiveness and great reward "without" repentance.(2 Nephi 28:5-17.) Nephi is actually speaking of our day, chapters 27-28 and 29.
The following false doctrines are doctrines being taught now, Nephi just groups them together.
5 And they deny the power of God, the Holy One of Israel; and they say unto the people: Hearken unto us, and hear ye our precept; for behold there is no God today, for the Lord and the Redeemer hath done his work, and he hath given his power unto men;
It's simple, Take the Lord and his sacrifice out of the equation then repentance is not necessary! The wicked will even declare it possible to replace proper repentance with physical punishment.
6 Behold, hearken ye unto my precept; if they shall say there is a miracle wrought by the hand of the Lord, believe it not; for this day he is not a God of miracles; he hath done his work (no more revelation).
7 Yea, and there shall be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die;and it shall be well with us.
8 And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes,(then the wicked add) and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God (without proper and complete repentance, it's not going to happen!).
Nehor in the first chapter of Alma preaches the same false doctrine, then later on in the Book of Alma, Korihor again preaches that same false doctrine. If you look hard you can find that suggestion throughout the scripture.
But Nephi corrects the false doctrine by explanation,
[b]9 Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish doctrines, and shall be puffed up in their hearts, and shall seek deep to hide their counsels from the Lord; and their works shall be in the dark. 10 And the blood of the saints shall cry from the ground against them.
11 Yea, they have all gone out of the way; they have become corrupted.
12 Because of pride, and because of false teachers, and false doctrine, their churches have become corrupted, and their churches are lifted up; because of pride they are puffed up.
13 They rob the poor because of their fine sanctuaries; they rob the poor because of their fine clothing; and they persecute the meek and the poor in heart, because in their pride they are puffed up.
14 They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.
15 O the wise, and the learned, and the rich, that are puffed up in the pride of their hearts, and all those who preach false doctrines, and all those who commit whoredoms, and pervert the right way of the Lord, wo, wo, wo be unto them, saith the Lord God Almighty, for they shall be thrust down to hell!
16 Wo unto them that turn aside the just for a thing of naught and revile against that which is good, and say that it is of no worth! For the day shall come that the Lord God will speedily visit the inhabitants of the earth; and in that day that they are fully ripe in iniquity they shall perish.
And then, quoting the Lord in verse 17:
17 But behold, if the inhabitants of the earth shall repent of their wickedness and abominations they shall not be destroyed, saith the Lord of Hosts.
Who do I believe will repent? I Have heard that "Every knee shall bend, every tongue confess (repent)"
ELDER CHARLES A. CALLIS; And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall ... of Kings and reign as of Lords, and every knee shall bend and every tongue shall speak in worship before Him." (April Conference report, 1944)
Neil A Maxwell, Some are so proud they never learn of obedience and spiritual submissiveness. They will have very arthritic knees on the day when every knee shall bend. There will be no gallery then to play to; all will be participants! (Ensign, May 1987, p. 70.)
President Kimball; May I repeat, the time will come when there will be a surrender of every person who has ever lived on this earth, who is now living, or who ever will live on this earth; and it will be an unforced surrender, an unconditional surrender. When will it be for you? Today? In twenty years? Two hundred years? Two thousand or a million? When? Again, to you, --- I say, it is not if you will capitulate to the great truth; it is when, for I know that you cannot indefinitely resist the power and pressure of truth. Why not now? Much time has been lost. The years ahead can be far more glorious for you than any years in the past. (Spencer W. Kimball. Sept Ensign, 1978. Messages of the First Presidency)
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. (Isaiah 1:18.)
Though their sins be as scarlet, they may become white as the driven snow (see Isa. 1:18), and the Lord has promised he would remember their sins no more (see D&C 58:42).
(Repentance [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1990], 64.)
Our Lord said: "I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins" (Isaiah 43:25).
Boyd K. Packer, “The formula is stated in forty words: "Behold, he who has repented of his sins, the same is forgiven, and I, the Lord, remember them no more. By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins-behold, he will confess them and forsake them." (D&C 58:42-43.) I know of no more beautiful words in all of revelation than these. "The same is forgiven, and I, the Lord, remember them no more."
(Things of the Soul, page115.)
Boyd K. Packer, Nowhere is the generosity and kindness and mercy of God more manifest than in repentance. Do you understand the consummate cleansing power of the atonement made by the Son of God, our Savior, our Redeemer, who said, "I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent"? (D&C 19:16.) I know of no sin connected with transgression of the moral law which cannot be forgiven, assuming, of course, full and complete repentance. I do not exempt abortion.. (Things of the Soul)
(58) Therefore I give unto you a commandment, to teach these things freely unto your children, saying:
(59) That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even (same as) immortal glory;
(60) For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;(Moses 6:58-60.)
(57) I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead (Spirit prison)
(58) The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,
(59) And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation. (Doctrine and Covenants 138:57-59.)
(22) Nevertheless—whosoever putteth his trust in him the same (Lord) shall be lifted up at the last day. Yea, and thus it was with this people. (Mosiah 23: 22)
Elder Jeffrey R. Holland: Mercy, with its sister virtue forgiveness, is at the very heart of the Atonement of Jesus Christ and the eternal plan of salvation. (Ensign, Nov. 1997)
Every wayward child is known and loved beyond our imagination. Some have been deceived or offended, “ but behold such shall be reclaimed.” Because of their premortal greatness, they were given to the Savior by the Father as a trust, “and none of them that my Father hath given me shall be lost.”
Every great sinner has an infinitely greater loving and forgiving Savior and Redeemer!
Receiving the Holy Ghost, the Spirit, and how he cleanses us from our sins!
Elder McConkie; The relationship between the bearing of testimony by the power of the Holy Ghost and the forgiveness of sins illustrates a glorious gospel truth. It is that whenever faithful saints gain the companionship of the Holy Spirit, they are clean and pure before the Lord, for the Spirit will not dwell in an unclean tabernacle. Hence, they thereby receive a remission of those sins committed after baptism.
This same eternal verity is illustrated in the ordinance of administering to the sick. A faithful saint who is anointed with oil has the promise that "the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him." (James 5:14-15.) The reasoning of the ancient apostle James, in this instance, is that since the miracle of healing comes by the power of the Holy Ghost, the sick person is healed not only physically but spiritually, for the Spirit who comes to heal will not dwell in a spiritually unclean tabernacle.
The prophet Nephi; (17) Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost. (2 Nephi 31:17.)
The Holy Ghost can burn the hell out of us!
Our Lord; (16) And it shall come to pass, that whoso repenteth and is baptized in my name shall be filled; and if he endureth to the end, behold, him will I hold guiltless before my Father at that day when I shall stand to judge the world.
(17) And he that endureth not unto the end, the same is he that is also hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence they can no more return, because of the justice of the Father.
(18) And this is the word which he hath given unto the children of men. And for this cause he fulfilleth the words which he hath given, and he lieth not, but fulfilleth all his words.
(19) And no unclean thing can enter into his kingdom; therefore nothing entereth into his rest save it be those who have washed their garments in my blood, because of their faith, and the repentance of all their sins, and their faithfulness unto the end.
(20) Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day. (3 Nephi 27:16-20.)
Alma; (54) Yea, will ye persist in supposing that ye are better one than another; yea, will ye persist in the persecution of your brethren, who humble themselves and do walk after the holy order of God, wherewith they have been brought into this church, having been sanctified by the Holy Spirit, and they do bring forth works which are meet for repentance—(Alma 5:54.)
Alma;(12) Now they, after being sanctified by the Holy Ghost, having their garments made white, being pure and spotless before God, could not look upon sin save it were with abhorrence; and there were many, exceedingly great many, who were made pure and entered into the rest of the Lord their God.(Alma 13:12.)
Joseph Smith; You might as well baptize a bag of sand as a man, if not done in view of the remission of sins and getting of the Holy Ghost. Baptism by water is but half a baptism, and is good for nothing without the other half—that is, the baptism of the Holy Ghost. (Joseph Smith, History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 7 Vols. 5:499)
(Joseph Smith, Encyclopedia of Joseph Smith's Teachings)
Henry B. Erying; If you have felt the influence of the Holy Ghost during this day, or even this evening, you may take it as evidence that the Atonement is working in your life. For that reason and many others, you would do well to put yourself in places and in tasks that invite the promptings of the Holy Ghost. Feeling the influence of the Holy Ghost works both ways: the Holy Ghost only dwells in a clean temple, and the reception of the Holy Ghost cleanses us through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. (BYU Speeches 2006 by Henry B. Eyring - 10 September 2006)
The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: "God does not look on sin with allowance, but when men have sinned, there must be allowance made for them." (History of the Church 5:24.) That is another way of saying God loves the sinner but condemns the sin.
(Ezra Taft Benson, Come unto Christ, Page 95.)
President J. Reuben Clark, Jr; You know, I believe that the Lord will help us. I believe if we go to him, he will give us wisdom, if we are living righteously. I believe he will answer our prayers. I believe that our Heavenly Father wants to save every one of his children. I do not think he intends to shut any of us off because of some slight transgression, some slight failure to observe some rule or regulation. There are the great elementals that we must observe, but he is not going to be captious about the lesser things.
(Conference Report, October 1953, General Priesthood Meeting 84.)
President J. Reuben Clark, Jr; I believe that his juridical concept of his dealings with his children could be expressed in this way: I believe that in his justice and mercy he will give us the maximum reward for our acts, give us all that he can give, and in the reverse, I believe that he will impose upon us the minimum penalty which it is possible for him to impose. (Conference Report, October 1953, General Priesthood Meeting 84.)
Joseph Smith; Our Heavenly Father is more liberal in his views, and boundless in his mercies and blessings, than we are ready to believe or receive;
(Joseph Smith, Discourses of the Prophet Joseph Smith, page 71.)
Elder Bruce R. McConkie declared "[You] don't need to get a complex,", "or get a feeling that you have to be perfect to be saved. You don't. . . . What you have to do is get on the straight and narrow path—thus charting a course leading to eternal life—and then, being on that path, pass out of this life in full fellowship. I'm not saying that you don't have to keep the commandments. I'm saying you don't have to be perfect to be saved. If you did, no one would be saved. . . . If you're on that path and pressing forward, and you die, you'll never get off the path. There is no such thing as falling off the straight and narrow path in the life to come, and the reason is that this life is the time that is given to men to prepare for eternity. Now is the time and the day of your salvation, so if you're working zealously in this life—though you haven't fully overcome the world and you haven't done all you hoped you might do—you're still going to be saved. You don't have to do what Jacob said, 'Go beyond the mark.' You don't have to live a life that's truer than true. You don't have to have an excessive zeal that becomes fanatical and becomes unbalancing. What you have to do is stay in the mainstream of the Church and live as upright and decent people live in the Church. . . . If you're on that path when death comes—because this is the time and the day appointed, this is the probationary estate—you'll never fall off from it, and, for all practical purposes, your calling and election is made sure" ("The Probationary Test of Mortality," pp. 12-13). (Robert L. Millet, Within Reach, 99.)
Aaron, Book of Mormon Prophet Speaking to a Lamanite king, guilty of many murders;
13 And Aaron did expound unto him the scriptures from the creation of Adam, laying the fall of man before him, and their carnal state and also the plan of redemption, which was prepared from the foundation of the world, through Christ, for all whosoever would believe on his name.
14 And since man had fallen he could not merit anything of himself; but the sufferings and death of Christ atone for their sins, through faith and repentance, and so forth; and that he breaketh the bands of death, that the grave shall have no victory, and that the sting of death should be swallowed up in the hopes of glory; and Aaron did expound all these things unto the king.
15 And it came to pass that after Aaron had expounded these things unto him, the king said: of What shall I do that I may have this eternal life which thou hast spoken? Yea, what shall I do that I may be born of God, having this wicked spirit rooted out of my breast, and receive his Spirit, that I may be filled with joy, that I may not be cast off at the last day? Behold, said he, I will give up all that I possess, yea, I will forsake my kingdom, that I may receive this great joy.
16 But Aaron said unto him: If thou desirest this thing, if thou wilt bow down before God, yea, if thou wilt repent of all thy sins, and will bow down before God, and call on his name in faith, believing that ye shall receive, then shalt thou receive the hope which thou desirest. (Alma 22:13-16.)
And That Mahonri, is what I believe! Now, my promised quotes, please!
Last edited by bobhenstra
on Sat Aug 08, 2009 10:07 pm, edited 6 times in total.
Every Prophet I quote, everything I write, is my opinion.
Joseph Smith "Salvation consists in the glory, authority, majesty, power and dominion which Jehovah possesses and in nothing else; and no being can possess it but himself or one like him