Thoughts regarding the Catholic Church?

[jskcaptain of 100]

I home teach a Brother that has an early edition of Bruce R. McConkie's "Mormon Doctrine," in which he explicitly identified the Catholic Church as the Great and Abominable Church. My later edition of "Mormon
Doctrine" does not contain this reference. I understand Elder Mcconkie was required to remove this reference.

I would be interested on thoughts and opinions regarding the reason for removing this reference. Was Elder McConkie incorrect in his assertion? I would also be interested in thoughts and opinions pertaining to the role of the Catholic Church regarding Last day events and any possible connection to the occult and/or the NWO.

Thanks...

[ChelCThe Law]

I imagine he was asked to remove it because it's divisive and probably not the best missionary tool, lol. Of course we believe the Lord has only one church.

[Joppacaptain of 100]

He was asked by the first presidency at the time to remove it.
and I don't really want to go off on the Catholic Church, but I served my mission in Portugal, and Portugal up until the 1970s was basically a catholic dictatorship, and just when I'd start thinking that another church/cult was as evil as could be, the catholic church would do something, and just blow all the other churches out of the water. Some of the things they do, at least within the last ten years, has been telling their members that it doesn't matter what church they are part of as long as they are good they'll go to heaven. We got 3 times a day, "what's the point of changing churches we will all go to heaven if we are good." There are plenty of good people in the catholic church, and leaders, but some of the things they do just amazed me.

[sbsioncaptain of 1,000]

." There are plenty of good people in the catholic church, and leaders, but some of the things they do just amazed me.

remember, Catholic leaders can't become "sons of perdition"........hmmmmmm........btw, churchs aren't evil, only the people who "man" them.....there are no churchs in the Celestial kingdom, probably none in the Terestial?

[jskcaptain of 100]

Thanks for the replies!

Chelc...Of course I agree with you that there is only one true Church...

Joppa...Interesting you would say that the Catholic Church teaches that it doesn't matter what Church you belong to, as long as you are a good person. A Catholic acquaintance of mine said something very similar to me not long ago. I assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that this was just a personal opinion of his.

I have always been struck by the fact that the Pope is the head of the Catholic Church as well as a political entity (Vatican City).

Edited to add that I also know many fine Catholics!

I would be interested in hearing from others (Bella?) on the occult and possible NWO connections of the Catholic Church.

[Spencecaptain of 1,000]

I think the BoM is pretty clear about who and what the great and abominable church is and the Catholic Church certainly fits under that criteria.

I personally think they are, but that is a personal opinion based directly on what the plain doctrine of the BoM says. Elder Holland gave a talk a few years back about the Nicene Creed which is the founding of the Great and Abominable, but since the Catholic Church and every other Church virtually follows that creed, I don't see how you could argue that the Catholic and other church's are not the Great and Abominable as spoken of in Scripture.

So I would say yes, but I know most BYU prof's and the Mormon Scholars are much less direct and much nicer people than I am and will probably laugh it off and say "No, the Great and Abominable is a much earlier church, 1st, 2nd century..."

[lundbaekcaptain of 1,000]

One Sunday morning a couple of years ago I was listening to a discussion between 4 BYU religion professors on TV, and they touched briefly on the Great and Abominable Church. Their conclusion on that issue seemed to be that the Great and Abominable Church is anything that promotes evil. There was no mention of government. I think they were wrong.

The main message I got from "The Great and Abominable Church of the Devil" by the late 70, H. Verlan Andersen is that only "prostituted government" can fill the role of "The Great and Abominable Church" which we Gentiles are warned not to unite with, and which will ultimately be "cast down by devouring fire". The author points out that only government, and not religious organizations, has the means to use force to destroy free agency and control populations. That makes the most sense to me.

Brother Andersen shows that Satan has always tried to gain control over government. Satan's "great deception consists of inducing men to do in the name of government, that which they know would be wicked and destructive of freedom if done outside its framework." Also, "Men are also deceived into assuming that they are not morally accountable for evil done in the name of government."

I was Catholic (in name only, mostly) until almost 22. I'm not aware of the Catholic Church ever trying to gain control over government. Influence in local government to promote Catholic ideals and values, yes; but not control. But the LDS Church has also tried to influence local and even national government in the USA on certain issues. I don't care enough about it to research all the examples, but prophets and apostles certainly did try in past to persuade American members to work for a return to constitutional principles in government. The Church also tried to raise oppositon to the passage of the 21st Amendment.

[Spencecaptain of 1,000]

The Catholic Church was the Government for 1400 years.... I heard the same discussion I think, don't really remember that much in detail, but they did say it wasn't the Catholic Church but an earlier church.

[kathyncaptain of 1,000]

I think the Catholic Church (and other churches, for that matter) can be part of the great and abominable church. But truly gov't is the entity which can control people in our time, so I have to agree that in our day, the great and abominable church is corrupt gov't.

I do think it would be very unwise for church leaders to name a specific group as the church of the devil. We are told to read the Book of Mormon so we can spiritually discern those who are leading the great and abominable church. We can know for ourselves more than is said over the pulpit.

[jonnybreevescaptain of 100]

...Was Elder McConkie incorrect in his assertion?

Yes. He was too narrow in his definition. The great and abominable church transcends the period of time the Catholic Church existed. The Catholic Church was not around when the scriptures were changed. In fact, ironically, the Catholic Church is one of the main reasons the Bible was kept intact through the generations. But the precious parts had already been removed by the time the Catholic Church began preserving the records.

Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.

Also, the Catholic Church was not around at the time the early Christian saints were killed.

And the angel said unto me: Behold the formation of a achurch which is most abominable above all other churches, which slayeth the saints of God, yea, and tortureth them and bindeth them down, and yoketh them with a yoke of iron, and bringeth them down into captivity.

IMO, the great and abominable church exists in secret and always has. It is the secret combinations that have made oaths with the devil who appears to them as an angel of light. What are these oaths? They are covenants. It is religious in nature. We know the devil has some sort of priesthood power and those who make these oaths with him literally have authority from him.

And they did enter into a covenant one with another, yea, even into that covenant which was given by them of old, which covenant was given and administered by the devil, to combine against all righteousness.

And here is a scary verse...

...that great and abominable church, which was founded by the devil and his children...

It is possible his church has exercised a great deal of influence over the Catholic Church and others throughout the generations. Their influence is everywhere, even within our own Church. (Joel Skousen on Mitt Romney: http://www.truveo.com/Joel-Skousen-on-R ... 3060770553)

...if the conspiracy “comes here it will probably come in its full vigor and there will be a lot of vacant places among those who guide and direct, not only this government, but also this Church of ours.”

...Even within the Church we have been warned that “the ravening wolves are amongst us, from our own membership, and they, more than any others, are clothed in sheep’s clothing, because they wear the habiliments of the priesthood.”
http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnex ... &hideNav=1

But isn't it interesting, in 1776 at precisely the same time our country declared independence and the freedoms that came with it, the Devil organized another group, the Bavarian Illuminati? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illuminati

For it cometh to pass that whoso buildeth it up seeketh to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries; and it bringeth to pass the destruction of all people, for it is built up by the devil, who is the father of all lies; even that same liar who beguiled our first parents, yea, even that same liar who hath caused man to commit murder from the beginning; who hath hardened the hearts of men that they have dmurdered the prophets, and stoned them, and cast them out from the beginning.

The secret combination described in the Book of Mormon that would exist in the last days is the great and abominable church. They are one in the same. Compare the following verse to 1 Nephi 13:5 (above).

And it shall come in a day when the blood of saints shall cry unto the Lord, because of secret combinations and the works of darkness.

[AussieOicaptain of 1,000]

But isn't it interesting, in 1976 at precisely the same time our country declared independence and the freedoms that came with it, the Devil organized another group, the Bavarian Illuminati?

1776 but i know you meant that.

for mine the CC is institutionalised child abuse

it sits on 7 hills

its priests perform a black mass abominising the sacrament

they forbid marriage and they believe in infant baptism and original sin.

they are A pollution upon the earth, but they are THE pollution also as far as our missionary efforts are concerned

you might have noticed that our church has no real presence in islamic countries or asian countries, so it fights against the whore that sits on the beast, who wears scarlet. those countries made much progress in avoiding the dark ages, which were the catholic church oppressing mankind

as far as i'm concerned i detest the church and all it is. i respect that "it" offers hope to millions, but don't ignore that it is christ that offers hope, not their bastardised version of his true gospel

[1ofthe144000hp'scaptain of 10]

Any church other than the only true church, is the great and abominal church! (Think of what Satan says to Adam and Eve in the Temple Endowment)! The temple teaches us the purest and clearest doctrine!

[sbsioncaptain of 1,000]

Any church other than the only true church, is the great and abominal church! (Think of what Satan says to Adam and Eve in the Temple Endowment)! The temple teaches us the purest and clearest doctrine!

3/4 of the temple endowment has been removed, what do you suppose that "means"/represent ie, is it because we are not able to understand?

[chicafoomcaptain of 100]

I agree with johnnybreeves explanation. The Catholic Church certainly has played its role in the Great and Abominable church, but it's not the whole ball of wax. It's the whole darn conspiracy that seeks to control gov't, religion, food, ultimately agency. It's what Satan has always wanted and worked for. My theory is he has his priesthood as well. He probably has something the mirrors and counterfeits the first presidency and 12 apostles. It is an organization with many parts, and most parts probably don't realize they are a part of it, but those on the top do and they pull the puppet strings, but only for a little while longer...

[1ofthe144000hp'scaptain of 10]

When we're in the Temple, if we're prepared, answers will come to us there if we ask. This is a great place to learn the language of the spirit. I also aree with the last statement that Satan is very organized and doing all in his power to thwart the gospel.

[ldsffcaptain of 1,000]

Any church other than the only true church, is the great and abominal church! (Think of what Satan says to Adam and Eve in the Temple Endowment)! The temple teaches us the purest and clearest doctrine!

3/4 of the temple endowment has been removed, what do you suppose that "means"/represent ie, is it because we are not able to understand?

I think it is a reflection of the righteousness of the patrons. Not boasting but we are the best of the best and we are faithful and I know the Lord is blessing us with the Spirit which is able to teach us the things that will enable us to gain knowledge line by line the fastest. Too me the shorter the message the more I get from it. The temple ceremony is complete and whole. We have so much Light and Knowledge at the temple. The temple is a pure meat fest, the milk has been eliminated.

[jonnybreevescaptain of 100]

The temple is a pure meat fest, the milk has been eliminated.

Not to delve to deep into this...but is it possible the opposite is true? Maybe it is better for the members, with as large as the Church has become, to receive milk...instead of some of the aspects of the various ordinances and ceremonies that were previously practiced. I think there is a strong argument for that.

[ldsffcaptain of 1,000]

The temple is a pure meat fest, the milk has been eliminated.

Not to delve to deep into this...but is it possible the opposite is true? Maybe it is better for the members, with as large as the Church has become, to receive milk...instead of some of the aspects of the various ordinances and ceremonies that were previously practiced. I think there is a strong argument for that.

I suppose you can take that position, Maybe I am wrong. I pray that the Spirit will make our view of things as they really are. The Lord has interwoven the temple ordinances with symbolic representations. I do a lot of studying outside of the temple about things I am prompted inside the temple to study. The temple for me brings focus and direction. I am constantly in the temple and most of my spiritual study time is focus by the short time in the temple. I have done much research into the symbols and images I see in the temple and that has enrich my knowledge and understandings of what is presented to me in the temple. The Lord understands we are a faithful generation and are driven to gain light and knowledge, we hunger and thirst after it. The Lord blesses us more with precise symbols and words and He knows we are willing to seek their meanings and provides the Spirit so we can accomplish this with more quickness then what our ancestors had access to. We have access to volumes of revealed truth and can do much studying that our ancestors could not do. We live in the information age, Light is everywhere and we can seek it so easily. Just look at lds.org, what a resource of pure Light!!

[jonnybreevescaptain of 100]

We have access to volumes of revealed truth and can do much studying that our ancestors could not do.

I definitely agree with this. It would be nice to have a seer stone every once and a while though.

Every man who lived on earth was entitled to a seer stone, and should have one, but they are kept from them in consequence of their wickedness...

[ldsffcaptain of 1,000]

It would be nice to have a seer stone every once and a while though.

Ditto

[A Mecaptain of 100]

In the book David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism the authors spend some time on the events around McConkie's book. The main story can be found on pages 49-53 (in a different section they talk about the reaction of local Catholic leaders to some to some of the things printed in the first edition of Mormon Doctrine about their church). I'll summarize and then gently rant a bit about the book, Mormon Doctrine.

In summary:

According to the authors' research, McConkie (who was a member of the First Quorum of the Seventy at the time) published Mormon Doctrine without first submitting it to the Reading Committee of the LDS Church and they even quote his father-in-law (Joseph Fielding Smith) as having known nothing about the book until it was published.

Pres. McKay didn't appreciate McConkie, or any GA, publishing a book on doctrine without first letting the Reading Committee take a look at it. (This makes sense to me, especially considering how often members quote speculations from the prophets as if it were pure revelation.)

McKay got a copy and read it (even using paper clips to keep track of questions as he read). Then, he called in Mark E. Petersen and Marion G. Romney, two senior apostles, and asked them to read the book and note corrections that needed to be made and I really wish I could quote McKay's words here. He was very serious about this and talked about sending out an addendum to any member of the Church who purchased Mormon Doctrine.

Ten months later, Petersen and Romney gave their report. The sum of it is that Petersen recommended 1,067 corrections. Huge for a 776 page book. And Romney questioned... well, he questioned the purpose of the book in the first place and who should have written it.

In fact, the number of corrections was so huge that McKay decided against the corrections, since he felt it might destroy McConkie's reputation. However, McKay also made it clear he didn't want a second edition of the book even if the errors were corrected. Also, (and I don't know if this still stands) it was decided by the First Presidency that GA's must have the consent of the First Presidency before publishing a book.

Six years later, when McKay's health was failing, McConkie asked for permission to republish the book and, I strongly recommend you read the book since what McKay said wasn't exactly how things got transmitted. The result is that eight years later a second edition got published.

According to the biography I'm using as a source for this, Pres. McKay was a strong believer in allowing people divergent views as long as we all agreed on the basics. This biography was a fantastic and faith-affirming look at his life and has helped me stay in the Church, just for the truth regarding Mormon Doctrine alone. I've had so many problems over the years with people who quote Mormon Doctrine, treating it as if it were gospel truth when it's really just one man's explanation, speaking of himself.

So, that long story is really just to get to this one point: I put no stock whatsoever in the book Mormon Doctrine. It has no place in my library. I cringe every time I see it in a member's home. No matter what good intentions may have spawned it, too much evil has come from it for me to have any good feelings for it whatsoever, much of it among the pseudo-conservatives I found in Utah.

Anyway, rant's done.

Oh, and also, I have nothing against Bruce R. McConkie. I love his Messiah series and think he's made some excellent points over the years. I definitely sustain him as a prophet, seer and revelator. I just hate Mormon Doctrine.

Now that I've probably offended some people here, I'll go start dinner.

[chicafoomcaptain of 100]

A me,

I feel the exact same way about the book. I have read excerpts from it, and find his viewpoints interesting, but it makes me so nervous that so many LDS regard it as official doctrine of the church. Its title should have been "Bruce R McConkie's Personal Interpretation of Mormon Doctrine - This is not Official LDS Church Doctrine". On my mission, whenever we were given one of the silly cartoon pamphlets distributed by antis, most of the controversial quotes were from Mormon Doctrine, and were taken out of context to make matter worse. It always frustrated me when people were receiving this type of propaganda and I couldn't adequately explain to everyone who received those dumb things that it was a man's own interpretation and not necessarily what we believe. Probably the second most oft quoted book in those anti pamphlets was Doctrines of Salvation by Joseph Fielding Smith. Again, interesting read, but it's still not the official doctrine of the church.

[drjmecaptain of 100]

The Catholic Church (or it's leaders) will be the religious head of the beast that was 'wounded but was healed' as described in Book of revelation. It will rise to power again and become the dominant power that it was before it was 'wounded'. But it will be worse this time round. where as it dominated the 'known world' of ancient/ mediaeval times, It will again dominate the known world of modern times. This will be under the NWO religious arm (the threefold mission of the adversary- political, financial, religious) and will inflict persecution on all those who will not submit to it's religious terms.

Haven't read the book by Mckonkie but would like to.

[pjbrowniecaptain of 1,000]

The Catholic Church (or it's leaders) will be the religious head of the beast that was 'wounded but was healed' as described in Book of revelation. It will rise to power again and become the dominant power that it was before it was 'wounded'. But it will be worse this time round. where as it dominated the 'known world' of ancient/ mediaeval times, It will again dominate the known world of modern times. This will be under the NWO religious arm (the threefold mission of the adversary- political, financial, religious) and will inflict persecution on all those who will not submit to it's religious terms.

Haven't read the book by Mckonkie but would like to.

This is where I come in. I don't believe the original Church of Rome, though apostate, was the Great and Abominable Church. It was the Roman leadership (aka, the historical Beast) that co opted it and made it theirs. The Church of Rome was the tool and it became the Catholic Church of the medieval times that was in essence the Great and Abominable Church. This is the little horn spoken of by Daniel. Remember, that this kingdom is "diverse." I think its purpose is to be unrecognizable, and in the shadows. When power began moving away from Rome and the Vatican, it shifted into commerce and enterprise, where it is today, somewhat abandoning the popes, but probably not completely, either that or the public face of the church has, but it has shadow groups trying the maintain the grip of power, possibly through the same families that are conspiring in commerce. As this power begins collapsing, we'll see it move back into religion and the Catholic Church will be co opted once again, or its public face will change and become powerful again, this time with alliances with the Luciferian cult of the New Age. We know from Revelations that this is where it will be when the Savior comes again.

[lundbaekcaptain of 1,000]

I seems ot me that the Catholic Church can be credited with "carrying the ball", or the knowledge of Christ and his teachings thru the ages until the Reformation brought other religions onto the stage to help carry the ball. I think if the Catholic Church had not existed, knowledge of Christ and His teachings might have died out, leavng us in greater ignorance, with with only Islam and Judiaism. The restoration of the Gospel thru Joseph Smith, I think, would have been less well received.

[ktgcaptain of 100]

Every man who lived on earth was entitled to a seer stone, and should have one, but they are kept from them in consequence of their wickedness...

Can you tell me where to find this quote? Sounds interesting.

[drjmecaptain of 100]

The Catholic Church (or it's leaders) will be the religious head of the beast that was 'wounded but was healed' as described in Book of revelation. It will rise to power again and become the dominant power that it was before it was 'wounded'. But it will be worse this time round. where as it dominated the 'known world' of ancient/ mediaeval times, It will again dominate the known world of modern times. This will be under the NWO religious arm (the threefold mission of the adversary- political, financial, religious) and will inflict persecution on all those who will not submit to it's religious terms.

Haven't read the book by Mckonkie but would like to.

This is where I come in. I don't believe the original Church of Rome, though apostate, was the Great and Abominable Church. It was the Roman leadership (aka, the historical Beast) that co opted it and made it theirs. The Church of Rome was the tool and it became the Catholic Church of the medieval times that was in essence the Great and Abominable Church. This is the little horn spoken of by Daniel. Remember, that this kingdom is "diverse." I think its purpose is to be unrecognizable, and in the shadows. When power began moving away from Rome and the Vatican, it shifted into commerce and enterprise, where it is today, somewhat abandoning the popes, but probably not completely, either that or the public face of the church has, but it has shadow groups trying the maintain the grip of power, possibly through the same families that are conspiring in commerce. As this power begins collapsing, we'll see it move back into religion and the Catholic Church will be co opted once again, or its public face will change and become powerful again, this time with alliances with the Luciferian cult of the New Age. We know from Revelations that this is where it will be when the Savior comes again.

I agree with your assessment pj, The amalgamation of state, economy and religion became 'the empire/the beast' The Church a neccessary tool or the 'front'. I simply use the term 'the beast', because it is easier to descibe it to people who are not familiar with the prophecies as they can generally relate it to history.
I personally believe the little horn refers to the papacy, the little horn plucking up 3 other horns as it comes to power (papacy ordering the extermination of the vandals, ostrogoths and heruli being wiped out the same year of justinians decree 538). I believe it's power will be reinstated after America falls (the beast that was, is now healed from it's deathly wound etc.) Scripture even tells us where the power will be re established AND that we will have a world union prior to it.
The rest of your assessment I agree with too, This is how I view it, which Is why I believe we still have quite some time to go before the second coming etc. As you agree A LOT has to happen still according to prophecy. The catholic church will have a very big role in this playing out.

[jbillin4captain of 50]

The main message I got from "The Great and Abominable Church of the Devil" by the late 70, H. Verlan Andersen is that only "prostituted government" can fill the role of "The Great and Abominable Church" which we Gentiles are warned not to unite with, and which will ultimately be "cast down by devouring fire". The author points out that only government, and not religious organizations, has the means to use force to destroy free agency and control populations. That makes the most sense to me.

I agree with lundbaek. In that book, Andersen rhetorically asked if Satan would rather use congregations of people who try their best to worship God, or governments with the military, weapons of war, and power to mandatorily compel its subjects. Keep in mind, Satan's plan was to force us to choose the right.

Andersen also pointed out, that it is not until any particular church's representatives hold governmental positions that it is able to exert it's will on others.

My personal opinion is that the Catholic Church can be part of the Great and Abominable Church, but that there is more to it than just that. Its real power lies in usurping control from and prostituting all the governments of men. McConkie is just a mortal man like the rest of us. I won't say if he's wrong or right about that particular point; he is only human, and the possibility does exist that what he said isn't the perfect explaination.

[sbsioncaptain of 1,000]

I home teach a Brother that has an early edition of Bruce R. McConkie's "Mormon Doctrine," in which he explicitly identified the Catholic Church as the Great and Abominable Church. My later edition of "Mormon
Doctrine" does not contain this reference. I understand Elder Mcconkie was required to remove this reference.
I would be interested on thoughts and opinions regarding the reason for removing this reference. Was Elder McConkie incorrect in his assertion? I would also be interested in thoughts and opinions pertaining to the role of the Catholic Church regarding Last day events and any possible connection to the occult and/or the NWO.
Thanks...

better still, what about ALL religions, and how theire are "connections".....hmmmm

[jskcaptain of 100]

Thanks everyone for all the replies...many great thoughts!

sbsion....what's with the Care to elaborate on your post?