Why I stopped being a feminist

[Rose Garden]

And how does the Savior want us to treat men? He wants us to obey righteous husbands. But that is kind of hard to do when you are being treated unfairly or unkindly. Men are able to obey a perfectly loving being whom they can trust perfectly. Women must obey, love and put their trust in often times selfish men. See the dilemma women have? Again, what is it specifically that you are complaining about regarding the feminist movement?

The temple covenant a woman makes is to obey her husband as her husband obeys Father. Meaning, her obedience to him is conditional. No woman should ever feel like they need to follow an unrighteous man into hell.

That is not the way the covenant always was. Previously, women covenanted to obey the law of their husbands. If the endowment was authorized by the Lord then in addition to now, then there must be a more expansive understanding available.

[Sarah]

"If all men behaved righteously and fairly towards women, you wouldn't have feminism." LOL!! That is the most idiotic statement I have ever heard! That is like saying "If women behaved and acted right you wouldn't have gay men"

If all men behaved and treated women as our Savior would, you would not have a feminist movement. You would still have selfish women. You would still have immoral women. But you wouldn't have the huge backlash and demanding attitudes that you see now. Expectations men have for women breed women's expectations for men.

This just reeks of a total lack of self responsibility. It's always someone else's or something else's fault.
And your assessment just doesn't fit any reality.
Seems like some personal issues.
dc

Women are responsible for their own lives and happiness just like African Americans who are decedents of slavery are responsible for theirs. I'm only trying to point out that like racial anger against whites, women anger against men just didn't come out of thin air. If there were no slavery there would not be the black anger that we see today to the degree that it is. And same with women who call themselves feminists who are on a mission to make sure women get what they deserve. You wouldn't have this movement to the degree that it is if men did not treat women like the way they've been treated over the years. I acknowledge that no one really deserves anything accept basic rights.

When the slaves were set free, many of them did not want to leave, nor did they know what to do with themselves. This circumstance by no means justifies slavery, but you could see that if you had a situation where they were employed rather than enslaved and were treated fairly and well, they would not want to leave but would love the families they worked for. It needs to be acknowledged that for most of history, women could not provide for themselves and so were dependent on men to take care of them, which in many cases made them feel like slaves. Every man is different in how they treat women and some are not very generous.

I once had a black neighbor and a black roommate that basically told me the same thing - that I couldn't understand what it was like to be black - that they felt like people treated them inferior and they felt that way. I'm sure that is not how black people all feel, but it is good for us to acknowledge that slavery happened and it was wrong and that we should have compassion on those who still feel disadvantaged by it's legacy. That is simply how many women feel too, and clearly defining what is okay about supporting women's rights and what is not, is just as important as it is to do with the race question too. There are some things that are okay to promote and other things that cross that line of forced giving which always leads to the givers giving for the wrong reasons and the receivers receiving for the wrong reasons.

[Rose Garden]

What if the only love that has power to save is love that compels one person to accompany the other to hell, if necessary? Jesus paid the price for our sins. According to my understanding, he suffered as though he had been the one to commit the sins himself. He went to hell in innocence.

If we are to love as he did, then I would think we also need to learn to sacrifice as he did. Before and after descending to hell, he preached a sermon instructing us to turn the other cheek, go two miles with the person who compels you to go one, give your coat when someone sues you for your cloak, etc. Perhaps the reason he asked us to do those things was so we would learn to love others like he loves us.

How much more of the difficulties you face with your spouse would you continue to face if you knew it would save their soul? How more patient would you be? What sacrifices would you make that you don't make now?

These questions are meant purely as food for thought. I've been asking them myself.

[David13]

"If all men behaved righteously and fairly towards women, you wouldn't have feminism." LOL!! That is the most idiotic statement I have ever heard! That is like saying "If women behaved and acted right you wouldn't have gay men"

If all men behaved and treated women as our Savior would, you would not have a feminist movement. You would still have selfish women. You would still have immoral women. But you wouldn't have the huge backlash and demanding attitudes that you see now. Expectations men have for women breed women's expectations for men.

This just reeks of a total lack of self responsibility. It's always someone else's or something else's fault.
And your assessment just doesn't fit any reality.
Seems like some personal issues.
dc

Women are responsible for their own lives and happiness just like African Americans who are decedents of slavery are responsible for theirs. I'm only trying to point out that like racial anger against whites, women anger against men just didn't come out of thin air. If there were no slavery there would not be the black anger that we see today to the degree that it is. And same with women who call themselves feminists who are on a mission to make sure women get what they deserve. You wouldn't have this movement to the degree that it is if men did not treat women like the way they've been treated over the years. I acknowledge that no one really deserves anything accept basic rights.

When the slaves were set free, many of them did not want to leave, nor did they know what to do with themselves. This circumstance by no means justifies slavery, but you could see that if you had a situation where they were employed rather than enslaved and were treated fairly and well, they would not want to leave but would love the families they worked for. It needs to be acknowledged that for most of history, women could not provide for themselves and so were dependent on men to take care of them, which in many cases made them feel like slaves. Every man is different in how they treat women and some are not very generous.

I once had a black neighbor and a black roommate that basically told me the same thing - that I couldn't understand what it was like to be black - that they felt like people treated them inferior and they felt that way. I'm sure that is not how black people all feel, but it is good for us to acknowledge that slavery happened and it was wrong and that we should have compassion on those who still feel disadvantaged by it's legacy. That is simply how many women feel too, and clearly defining what is okay about supporting women's rights and what is not, is just as important as it is to do with the race question too. There are some things that are okay to promote and other things that cross that line of forced giving which always leads to the givers giving for the wrong reasons and the receivers receiving for the wrong reasons.

I disagree totally. And my comments still stand.
dc

[brianj]

Let me generalize, and of course, there are exceptions.

Women in general are more likely to claim victimhood and avoid blame and responsibility. It is their nature.

I see it at home and at work - when giving an opinion or asking someone to do something, women like my wife and daughters or those I supervise at work, are much more likely to react defensively and assume I was accusing them of something.

On the other hand, we tell men to "man up" and "grow a pair". So women feel no limits to claiming victimhood, while men feel shame to do so. So men will lose as long as we tolerate such behavior.

So feminism is about power through victimhood. If you can claim to be a victim of men, you get special treatment and benefits.

Problem with feminists is they don't know when to stop. Many of them won't be satisfied until they've gotten everything they can - and why not, after all, men are rapists and abusers, and oppressive patriarchy and rape culture, and on and on. They'll keep going until few men want to touch them, or work to pay for them.

Good luck ladies building your own roads and bridges and houses and cars and combines and whatever, cuz of course you need men "like a fish needs a bicycle", right?

Now if women generally want to have husbands and families, they might want to fight against feminism, but few care. Just complain there aren't any good men out there, and they're immature, and irresponsible and selfish, blah, blah. Once again, only blame the men. Women are all sweet, innocent angels.

As I've said before, the church doesn't care if women blow up families. Seen it happen multiple times among LDS relatives, based on the wifes' desire for more money. Only thing that really matters is that the dad doesn't look at porn.

Once again, men bad, women good.

MGTOW is the future, and for good reason.

Well said. The one thing I can add is that if you really want to offend a woman who complains that she can't find a good man by throwing a truth bomb, point out that if she wants to find a good man she should look in the friend zone.

[Yahtzee]

I think it's just another example of Satan taking something good and perverting it. I call my "feminism" Pioneer feminism and it's based on agency. Simply that I should be allowed to choose if I want to live up to my divine potential or throw it away. I should have the freedom to pick any career, not just school marm or housekeeper. I look at what Pioneer women accomplished and it inspires me. It gives me hope and makes me proud to be a woman.
Obviously it's been perverted now and become something hurtful and oftentimes evil, and now seeks the opposite-to remove agency. Well played, Satan.

[Kingdom of ZION]

We know half the active LDS population will fall before the 2nd Coming so maybe you need to help with the sifting.

Who is 'WE' that knows such. Someone forgot to tell 2 Nephi (abt. chap. 31)? He speaks of how FEW will repent in that day and be found numbered among Yesrael. And this is years before the Second Coming, so even less of a few will be there.

[Gage]

1) Active priesthood holder, struggled to get through college with a teaching degree and works at a middle school, or

2) Non-member wealthy CEO who makes his money in the entertainment industry?

99% of today's Mormon females choose number 2. I didnt say 99% end up with rich Alpha males but that is what they would choose if it was an option. Some dont have the choice because they may be fat or not very attractive, and about 1% actually believe the gospel and try to live it.

Please stop comparing the struggles and hatred blacks have for whites to feminism and marriage and women. Their is zero correlation.

[Sarah]

I think it's just another example of Satan taking something good and perverting it. I call my "feminism" Pioneer feminism and it's based on agency. Simply that I should be allowed to choose if I want to live up to my divine potential or throw it away. I should have the freedom to pick any career, not just school marm or housekeeper. I look at what Pioneer women accomplished and it inspires me. It gives me hope and makes me proud to be a woman.
Obviously it's been perverted now and become something hurtful and oftentimes evil, and now seeks the opposite-to remove agency. Well played, Satan.

One example of the perversion of women's rights is when women assert the right to an abortion for example. They are infringing on the right of another. There is one woman in my ward who is an academic and mainly focuses on researching the inequalities and bad treatment women face in other countries. So there is probably a broad spectrum of what people consider to be "feminist." I think historically and even still now, the focus in on equality in the work-place, but obviously that can turn into women demanding overreaching laws that restrict freedom. So yes, there is a perversion and overreach, and we should define what that is. There were "feminists" in the early church that lobbied for women's right to vote and I don't consider them to be out-of-the-way.

What does it mean to be a feminist now-a-days? I don't know. I've never considered myself one even though some in this thread seem to think I'm lobbying for that.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/maria-lau ... 69592.html

Why do I get the feeling though that the real complaint in this thread is against difficult wives? Is that the new definition of feminism?

[Sarah]

1) Active priesthood holder, struggled to get through college with a teaching degree and works at a middle school, or

2) Non-member wealthy CEO who makes his money in the entertainment industry?

99% of today's Mormon females choose number 2. I didnt say 99% end up with rich Alpha males but that is what they would choose if it was an option. Some dont have the choice because they may be fat or not very attractive, and about 1% actually believe the gospel and try to live it.

Please stop comparing the struggles and hatred blacks have for whites to feminism and marriage and women. Their is zero correlation.

What to you mean there is no correlation? Women in that day were "owned" in much the same way a slave was, and had very few rights.

Just like there were good and bad slave owners there were good and bad husbands and fathers, all which create resentment. I'm just trying to get some of you to acknowledge that fact. What I sense from men is that their resentment stems from the fact that they are stuck with a wife that doesn't treat them well, and I agree that wives could do a better job of lowering their expectations and being kinder.

Did you read that blog post Fiannan posted? Obviously the feeling young wives and mothers continue to face today, which is just a part of the sacrifice required to be a mother, is feeling like a slave to their children and oftentimes their husband too. It would be nice to define what the real complaint is against women, because that is what this thread feels like - one big women bashing party, and just throwing out labels. I don't believe that women are more prone to victim-hood attitudes by nature. That is a pride thing - getting defensive for example. I know lots of men that have that problem.

[Gage]

No correlation because laws back then did not allow women rights and allowed blacks to be slaves. There is no law, nothing holding a woman back from doing anything today. And no there is no Inequality in the workplace, women are paid the same for the same work, look it up.

[h_p]

It would be nice to define what the real complaint is against women, because that is what this thread feels like - one big women bashing party, and just throwing out labels.

I sincerely hope my OP did not come across that way. It was certainly not my intent.

[Sarah]

No correlation because laws back then did not allow women rights and allowed blacks to be slaves. There is no law, nothing holding a woman back from doing anything today. And no there is no Inequality in the workplace, women are paid the same for the same work, look it up.

Yes, I see all that, but it is the same for blacks also. They have every right to do whatever they want now, yet many still feel resentment towards whites for the poor treatment of their ancestors, and for some, every time they feel slighted or treated unkindly by a white person, they assume they are being discriminated against, and it reminds them of being used, taken advantage of, and discriminated against for so long in the past. Same thing that women are feeling. I'm not saying it is justified. I've been on the receiving end of white hatred and compare it to what was going on with the Laminates. And women also need to not assume males want to dominate them. But if men would at least acknowledge the injustices of the past (and the realities of the differences now) rather than complaining about women's "victim-hood," they would go a lot further with reconciling and building a better relationships with the women in their lives.

What correlation I don't accept is when the gay population compares their plight to blacks and women. With them it is a behavior issue and not race or gender discrimination.

[Sarah]

It would be nice to define what the real complaint is against women, because that is what this thread feels like - one big women bashing party, and just throwing out labels.

I sincerely hope my OP did not come across that way. It was certainly not my intent.

Not at all. I did not have the OP in mind when saying that. It just gave others an opportunity to vent!

[Gage]

It would be nice to define what the real complaint is against women, because that is what this thread feels like - one big women bashing party, and just throwing out labels.

I sincerely hope my OP did not come across that way. It was certainly not my intent.

The world, the people, and I assume Satan himself is trying to turn "nature" on its head- the natural man and the natural woman, the natural flow of things, the natural order. two ways this is achieved- the homosexual agenda and the Feminist movement.

[David13]

...


... Women in that day were "owned" in much the same way a slave was, ...

...

This is some personally slanted point of view.
This is a particular slant that you put on all your posts in this thread. What is there in your personal life that has given you this slanted view?
It seems to me like you are 'projecting' here.
dc

[Gage]

No correlation because laws back then did not allow women rights and allowed blacks to be slaves. There is no law, nothing holding a woman back from doing anything today. And no there is no Inequality in the workplace, women are paid the same for the same work, look it up.

Yes, I see all that, but it is the same for blacks also. They have every right to do whatever they want now, yet many still feel resentment towards whites for the poor treatment of their ancestors, and for some, every time they feel slighted or treated unkindly by a white person, they assume they are being discriminated against, and it reminds them of being used, taken advantage of, and discriminated against for so long in the past. Same thing that women are feeling. I'm not saying it is justified. I've been on the receiving end of white hatred and compare it to what was going on with the Laminates. And women also need to not assume males want to dominate them. But if men would at least acknowledge the injustices of the past (and the realities of the differences now) rather than complaining about women's "victim-hood," they would go a lot further with reconciling and building a better relationships with the women in their lives.

What correlation I don't accept is when the gay population compares their plight to blacks and women. With them it is a behavior issue and not race or gender discrimination.

"it reminds them of being used, taken advantage of, and discriminated against for so long in the past."


LOL, Sarah I literally have no words to this idiotic statement. All I can do is shake my head.

[Sarah]

No correlation because laws back then did not allow women rights and allowed blacks to be slaves. There is no law, nothing holding a woman back from doing anything today. And no there is no Inequality in the workplace, women are paid the same for the same work, look it up.

Yes, I see all that, but it is the same for blacks also. They have every right to do whatever they want now, yet many still feel resentment towards whites for the poor treatment of their ancestors, and for some, every time they feel slighted or treated unkindly by a white person, they assume they are being discriminated against, and it reminds them of being used, taken advantage of, and discriminated against for so long in the past. Same thing that women are feeling. I'm not saying it is justified. I've been on the receiving end of white hatred and compare it to what was going on with the Laminates. And women also need to not assume males want to dominate them. But if men would at least acknowledge the injustices of the past (and the realities of the differences now) rather than complaining about women's "victim-hood," they would go a lot further with reconciling and building a better relationships with the women in their lives.

What correlation I don't accept is when the gay population compares their plight to blacks and women. With them it is a behavior issue and not race or gender discrimination.

"it reminds them of being used, taken advantage of, and discriminated against for so long in the past."


LOL, Sarah I literally have no words to this idiotic statement. All I can do is shake my head.

I don't understand. You don't acknowledge that blacks were used, taken advantage of and discriminated in the past? You don't acknowledge that many women were also treated this way and were not allowed to work outside of the home?

[Sarah]

...


... Women in that day were "owned" in much the same way a slave was, ...

...

This is some personally slanted point of view.
This is a particular slant that you put on all your posts in this thread. What is there in your personal life that has given you this slanted view?
It seems to me like you are 'projecting' here.
dc

You're really trying to pin me down on this and I will tell you that I've seen and experienced all kinds of marriages and lets just say that some men have more respect for women than others.

Taken from a college textbook:

Most Americans treated married women according to the concept of coverture, a concept inherited from English common law. Under the doctrine of coverture, a woman was legally considered the chattel of her husband, his possession. Any property she might hold before her marriage became her husband's on her wedding day, and she had no legal right to appear in court, to sign contracts or to do business. Although these formal provisions of the law were sometimes ignored—the wives of tradesmen, for example, might assist in runing the family business—married women technically had almost no legal identity.

[Rose Garden]

1) Active priesthood holder, struggled to get through college with a teaching degree and works at a middle school, or

2) Non-member wealthy CEO who makes his money in the entertainment industry?

99% of today's Mormon females choose number 2. I didnt say 99% end up with rich Alpha males but that is what they would choose if it was an option. Some dont have the choice because they may be fat or not very attractive, and about 1% actually believe the gospel and try to live it.

Please stop comparing the struggles and hatred blacks have for whites to feminism and marriage and women. Their is zero correlation.

What to you mean there is no correlation? Women in that day were "owned" in much the same way a slave was, and had very few rights.

Just like there were good and bad slave owners there were good and bad husbands and fathers, all which create resentment. I'm just trying to get some of you to acknowledge that fact. What I sense from men is that their resentment stems from the fact that they are stuck with a wife that doesn't treat them well, and I agree that wives could do a better job of lowering their expectations and being kinder.

Did you read that blog post Fiannan posted? Obviously the feeling young wives and mothers continue to face today, which is just a part of the sacrifice required to be a mother, is feeling like a slave to their children and oftentimes their husband too. It would be nice to define what the real complaint is against women, because that is what this thread feels like - one big women bashing party, and just throwing out labels. I don't believe that women are more prone to victim-hood attitudes by nature. That is a pride thing - getting defensive for example. I know lots of men that have that problem.

I acknowledge that there were good and bad husbands and fathers back when women were legally owned by men and even now. But my acknowledgement isn't going to soothe your soul. There will still be people in this world who don't acknowledge it and you will continue to feel frustration toward those people until you resolve the resentment issues within yourself.

The roles of women and men are different. No woman is going to be rewarded with a good, loving husband until she manages to be good and loving herself. A married woman will not see any change in her husband if she is unwilling to change her attitude as well, even if he does change. The only thing any woman who feels put upon can do is repent of the resentment within her own heart.

Women who feel resentment toward men will look around and see no escape from the hurtful situations they find themselves in with the men in their lives. That is the nature of resentment. It is personally condemning, confining, hopeless, helpless, and leaves those who embrace it in an utterly dark and gloomy place. It takes a lot of effort to throw off resentment but it must be done before a person will see any outward changes in their lives. No woman who is in an abusive situation will escape it permanently by resenting the men in her life. She will eventually find herself back in a worse situation than she was in before until she finally learns her lessons and repents of her own sins.

[Sarah]

It would be nice to define what the real complaint is against women, because that is what this thread feels like - one big women bashing party, and just throwing out labels.

I sincerely hope my OP did not come across that way. It was certainly not my intent.

The world, the people, and I assume Satan himself is trying to turn "nature" on its head- the natural man and the natural woman, the natural flow of things, the natural order. two ways this is achieved- the homosexual agenda and the Feminist movement.

And part of the natural order of things has been the curses placed on Eve and on Cain. The curses are slowly being lifted, prophecy is being fulfilled as the "slaves" are rising up against their masters, and Satan is taking advantage of this for sure in stirring up a lot of discord between the traditional haves and have-nots. Freedom has not been a standard for the world, and with freedom comes the choice to not sacrifice to have a family. Women have been essentially forced into that role because of their weakness, (but it's better not to be compelled to make right choices, right?) and both men and women are choosing selfishness over raising more children, sending wives more and more into the workplace.

The text from above continues...

The rapid market transformation of the Jacksonian era, however, demanded greater flexibility for women. Because men sometimes could be away from home for months or years at a time, a married woman's ability to maintain a household pivoted upon her freedom to execute contracts. Real estate speculation played a huge role in the pre Civil War economy, particularly in the old southwest. Real estate speculators demanded greater flexibility in assigning ownership. Beginning in 1840s, states began to overturn the traditions of coverture. Over the next two decades, women would begin to develop a legal status within marriage, gaining the right to make contracts, to retain personal property, to be parties to law suits and contracts, and to execute wills on their own behalf. Most property rights for women emerged in piecemeal fashion, and because judges frequently interpreted the statutes narrowly, women often had to agitate repeatedly for more expansive and detailed legislation. Here are two examples

Women's Rights Petition to New York State Legislature, 1854
The Legislature's Response, 1854

Measures like this deeply upset tradition: they suggested that women were equal to men and did not naturally desire subordination. This cartoon, published in Harper's Weekly, June 11, 1859, mocks the sight of women insisting on their rights. If women are equal, it suggests, men are diminished and marginalized.

[Sarah]

1) Active priesthood holder, struggled to get through college with a teaching degree and works at a middle school, or

2) Non-member wealthy CEO who makes his money in the entertainment industry?

99% of today's Mormon females choose number 2. I didnt say 99% end up with rich Alpha males but that is what they would choose if it was an option. Some dont have the choice because they may be fat or not very attractive, and about 1% actually believe the gospel and try to live it.

Please stop comparing the struggles and hatred blacks have for whites to feminism and marriage and women. Their is zero correlation.

What to you mean there is no correlation? Women in that day were "owned" in much the same way a slave was, and had very few rights.

Just like there were good and bad slave owners there were good and bad husbands and fathers, all which create resentment. I'm just trying to get some of you to acknowledge that fact. What I sense from men is that their resentment stems from the fact that they are stuck with a wife that doesn't treat them well, and I agree that wives could do a better job of lowering their expectations and being kinder.

Did you read that blog post Fiannan posted? Obviously the feeling young wives and mothers continue to face today, which is just a part of the sacrifice required to be a mother, is feeling like a slave to their children and oftentimes their husband too. It would be nice to define what the real complaint is against women, because that is what this thread feels like - one big women bashing party, and just throwing out labels. I don't believe that women are more prone to victim-hood attitudes by nature. That is a pride thing - getting defensive for example. I know lots of men that have that problem.

I acknowledge that there were good and bad husbands and fathers back when women were legally owned by men and even now. But my acknowledgement isn't going to soothe your soul. There will still be people in this world who don't acknowledge it and you will continue to feel frustration toward those people until you resolve the resentment issues within yourself.

The roles of women and men are different. No woman is going to be rewarded with a good, loving husband until she manages to be good and loving herself. A married woman will not see any change in her husband if she is unwilling to change her attitude as well, even if he does change. The only thing any woman who feels put upon can do is repent of the resentment within her own heart.

Women who feel resentment toward men will look around and see no escape from the hurtful situations they find themselves in with the men in their lives. That is the nature of resentment. It is personally condemning, confining, hopeless, helpless, and leaves those who embrace it in an utterly dark and gloomy place. It takes a lot of effort to throw off resentment but it must be done before a person will see any outward changes in their lives. No woman who is in an abusive situation will escape it permanently by resenting the men in her life. She will eventually find herself back in a worse situation than she was in before until she finally learns her lessons and repents of her own sins.

I totally agree. I personally have no resentment towards men. But how do you help men who are resentful of women. That's what I'm seeing on this thread. What do you say to them except to point out that the things they don't like about women are the same things women historically have not liked about them.

[Sarah]

It would be nice to hear someone actually tell angry men and husbands to forgive their wives' behavior, but again and again on this forum we have this immediate frenzy of blame on the woman and her faults.

[Gage]

It would be nice to hear someone actually tell angry men and husbands to forgive their wives' behavior, but again and again on this forum we have this immediate frenzy of blame on the woman and her faults.

What? All I hear from you is blame the white man! Blame the white man for today's black mans problems. Blame the white man for today's woman's problems.

[Silver]

It would be nice to hear someone actually tell angry men and husbands to forgive their wives' behavior, but again and again on this forum we have this immediate frenzy of blame on the woman and her faults.

What? All I hear from you is blame the white man! Blame the white man for today's black mans problems. Blame the white man for today's woman's problems.

What was the name of Adam and Eve's daughter who killed Abel?