Making Your Calling and Election Sure

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h_p
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by h_p »

AI2.0 wrote:I think from what I've quoted we can agree that he has made it about simply asking for this. While they never suggest that you 'sit on your behind and arrogantly demand it' there is no suggestion that maybe you have not qualified for this in your life yet. I'm just quoting them, I haven't paraphrased this at all, this IS their method.
Well, I can't say I agree with that interpretation, but honestly, it's irrelevant to me. I see that you and I both agree on the main thing: that we can and should go to God for guidance on obtaining this blessing, and that He will answer us. The rest isn't important enough to debate.

I know He will answer us, because He answered me. The simple answer He gave me did not make any sense at the time, but it has given me much to ponder over, and I'm still discovering new layers of meaning even fifteen months later. It has become a guide for my life, and an anchor to me.

My only regret in all this is that this wasn't something I realized earlier that I could seek. I know I can't blame anyone but myself, but I'm a very goal-oriented person, and I can't help but think how different my life would have been if someone had tried to open my eyes to this decades ago. That's why I feel like we do ourselves a disservice by keeping these things hidden. I don't know, maybe I'm just a knucklehead, but up until recently, I've believed that having my calling and election made sure was something only given in mortality to a handful of people throughout history, the temple endowment just represented us dying and meeting God a thousand years from now, and enduring to the end meant sweating out this life in misery until we die, and if I was still active in the church when I kicked over, maybe my report card would give me a passing grade and I could squeak into heaven. Though I've always been "active," this all made for a lackluster life of church activity, without a lot to hope for or seek.

If I had known 20 years ago what I know now--if we talked about it more, and taught it more in church--maybe, just maybe, I would have gotten my act together when my kids were young, and I wouldn't be watching my wife and three kids abandoning God and the church right now.

I'm serving in a bishopric, and I want to talk about these greater blessings to our ward in the hopes that they won't live under the same misconceptions that I had, but my bishop (whom I love and admire dearly) restrains me for fear of overwhelming the members. When my son went through the temple for his endowments, I winced when the temple president explained to him that the temple veil represented our meeting God after we died. And so it continues...

Anyways, I've said enough on this thread. All the best to you, AI2.0

seekingtruth
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by seekingtruth »

h_p wrote:
My only regret in all this is that this wasn't something I realized earlier that I could seek. I know I can't blame anyone but myself, but I'm a very goal-oriented person, and I can't help but think how different my life would have been if someone had tried to open my eyes to this decades ago. That's why I feel like we do ourselves a disservice by keeping these things hidden. I don't know, maybe I'm just a knucklehead, but up until recently, I've believed that having my calling and election made sure was something only given in mortality to a handful of people throughout history, the temple endowment just represented us dying and meeting God a thousand years from now, and enduring to the end meant sweating out this life in misery until we die, and if I was still active in the church when I kicked over, maybe my report card would give me a passing grade and I could squeak into heaven. Though I've always been "active," this all made for a lackluster life of church activity, without a lot to hope for or seek.
You've just summed up my feelings on the matter. Why are we not talking about these blessings more plainly in church?! I just sat thru a primary class of 4 year olds yesterday where the entire lesson was about how "the prophet will always be right and will never tell you something wrong." The indoctrination starts so young. Just think if we were to teach Christ's pure doctrine without the false traditions of men sprinkled in...maybe we'd be living in Zion right now.

Juliet
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by Juliet »

h_p wrote:
AI2.0 wrote:I think from what I've quoted we can agree that he has made it about simply asking for this. While they never suggest that you 'sit on your behind and arrogantly demand it' there is no suggestion that maybe you have not qualified for this in your life yet. I'm just quoting them, I haven't paraphrased this at all, this IS their method.
Well, I can't say I agree with that interpretation, but honestly, it's irrelevant to me. I see that you and I both agree on the main thing: that we can and should go to God for guidance on obtaining this blessing, and that He will answer us. The rest isn't important enough to debate.

I know He will answer us, because He answered me. The simple answer He gave me did not make any sense at the time, but it has given me much to ponder over, and I'm still discovering new layers of meaning even fifteen months later. It has become a guide for my life, and an anchor to me.

My only regret in all this is that this wasn't something I realized earlier that I could seek. I know I can't blame anyone but myself, but I'm a very goal-oriented person, and I can't help but think how different my life would have been if someone had tried to open my eyes to this decades ago. That's why I feel like we do ourselves a disservice by keeping these things hidden. I don't know, maybe I'm just a knucklehead, but up until recently, I've believed that having my calling and election made sure was something only given in mortality to a handful of people throughout history, the temple endowment just represented us dying and meeting God a thousand years from now, and enduring to the end meant sweating out this life in misery until we die, and if I was still active in the church when I kicked over, maybe my report card would give me a passing grade and I could squeak into heaven. Though I've always been "active," this all made for a lackluster life of church activity, without a lot to hope for or seek.

If I had known 20 years ago what I know now--if we talked about it more, and taught it more in church--maybe, just maybe, I would have gotten my act together when my kids were young, and I wouldn't be watching my wife and three kids abandoning God and the church right now.

I'm serving in a bishopric, and I want to talk about these greater blessings to our ward in the hopes that they won't live under the same misconceptions that I had, but my bishop (whom I love and admire dearly) restrains me for fear of overwhelming the members. When my son went through the temple for his endowments, I winced when the temple president explained to him that the temple veil represented our meeting God after we died. And so it continues...

Anyways, I've said enough on this thread. All the best to you, AI2.0
I remember someone calling Dr. Laura a while back and they were heart broken that their children were leaving their religion. I don't remember what it was. But Dr. Laura said that the reason people leave their religion is because it is not helping them spiritual on a deep enough level, that they are asking for more questions, deeper questions, that the current religion is not answering. I sure can relate with that. I am so grateful for our church being the mother of my faith, but I do yearn for the deeper answers and understandings of things. How I wish I could be fed, usually I feel like I go home from church still starving to hear truth, the truth that satisfies, enlights, makes sense, comforts, and heals. It seems like lately church is just propoganda for how good the church is. How hungry I am for something more!!!

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AI2.0
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by AI2.0 »

seekingtruth wrote:
h_p wrote:
My only regret in all this is that this wasn't something I realized earlier that I could seek. I know I can't blame anyone but myself, but I'm a very goal-oriented person, and I can't help but think how different my life would have been if someone had tried to open my eyes to this decades ago. That's why I feel like we do ourselves a disservice by keeping these things hidden. I don't know, maybe I'm just a knucklehead, but up until recently, I've believed that having my calling and election made sure was something only given in mortality to a handful of people throughout history, the temple endowment just represented us dying and meeting God a thousand years from now, and enduring to the end meant sweating out this life in misery until we die, and if I was still active in the church when I kicked over, maybe my report card would give me a passing grade and I could squeak into heaven. Though I've always been "active," this all made for a lackluster life of church activity, without a lot to hope for or seek.
You've just summed up my feelings on the matter. Why are we not talking about these blessings more plainly in church?! I just sat thru a primary class of 4 year olds yesterday where the entire lesson was about how "the prophet will always be right and will never tell you something wrong." The indoctrination starts so young. Just think if we were to teach Christ's pure doctrine without the false traditions of men sprinkled in...maybe we'd be living in Zion right now.
I'm sure that isn't what the lesson said, but the teacher may have tried to simplify it for little children. As a life long member of the church, I know we aren't told the prophet will always be right and will never tell you something wrong. I also know that in his capacity of Prophet, such as when he speaks in General Conference, he is speaking the Lord's will for us and I should listen carefully--for that is his purpose.

Why is there such animosity towards the church's teaching to follow the spiritual counsel of a living prophet? This is a BIG part of the belief system of TCofJCofLDS--that we have living prophets and they actually have a purpose-- so what's the point for having them if it isn't to listen to them and learn from their counsel? There seems to be a deep seated anger toward the Church's doctrine on living prophets. I do sometimes wonder why those who think this doctrine so harmful, don't go join a church that doesn't have a living prophet--there are tons. If they want to still keep the book of Mormon, there are even a few sects that believe it is scripture, but they don't have a prophet, other than dead ones.

Having a living prophet is supposed to be a blessing and gift from God, but if it's viewed as some kind of cult that demands that you never question the prophet, period, then why bother with it. If that was really the way I saw my faith, I'd leave--I have no interest being in a church that teaches that kind of mindless devotion--and thankfully, I know it doesn't teach that. I know that when the Prophet teaches something, my responsibility is to pray about it and receive my own witness. This in turn strengthens my faith and witness that our church is led by the Lord's prophet and I am better able to follow his counsel.

And you know what? Those of you who want your calling and election--you need to listen to the Prophet, because he does 'know the way' and if you'd humble yourselves, stop being so contrary and critical and try to listen to his counsel with a soft heart and follow it, you'd actually become better human beings and better members of the LDS church, and that's how you work toward making your calling and election sure.

seekingtruth
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by seekingtruth »

AI2.0 wrote: I know that when the Prophet teaches something, my responsibility is to pray about it and receive my own witness. This in turn strengthens my faith and witness that our church is led by the Lord's prophet and I am better able to follow his counsel.
I agree with this. It is our own responsibility to gain a witness of the prophet's words. Unfortunately, the attitude among many of the members of the church is "follow the prophet, no matter what." And that attitude seems to be ingrained in an early age as per my example above. I wish more members would do as you suggest!

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AI2.0
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by AI2.0 »

'Undeviating and perfect devotion to the cause of righteousness' obviously means living the commandments, following the example of the Savior each day of your life, loving, serving and having complete integrity. Listening carefully to the promptings of the Holy Ghost and following them. Controlling your anger, frustration, impatience with those around you. Reading and pondering the words of God and humbly listening and learning from his servants--church leaders and those spiritually more mature people around you, standing in Holy Places in your daily life, praying and developing a relationship with God that you come to know him and love him--slowly overcoming all desire to do evil or commit sin. Now, if you want to say that's 'following church leaders', you must have some practically translated leaders--I don't. Mine are more human than that. They are great men and women, but they aren't examples of 'undeviating and perfect devotion to the cause of righteousness'. Most of them are like me, they are striving diligently, but they have plenty of weaknesses. I don't try to emulate their weaknesses--but I do try to follow their good examples and the areas where they are much better than I am.

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AI2.0
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by AI2.0 »

seekingtruth wrote:
AI2.0 wrote: I know that when the Prophet teaches something, my responsibility is to pray about it and receive my own witness. This in turn strengthens my faith and witness that our church is led by the Lord's prophet and I am better able to follow his counsel.
I agree with this. It is our own responsibility to gain a witness of the prophet's words. Unfortunately, the attitude among many of the members of the church is "follow the prophet, no matter what." And that attitude seems to be ingrained in an early age as per my example above. I wish more members would do as you suggest!

Some members might give this impression, and maybe some think that, but I believe most LDS don't, especially since if they did actually follow--no matter what, then we'd all be much more righteous as members, don't you think? Church leaders counsel is always trying to help us become better people; more patient, more loving, more kind, more respectful, more faithful, more virtuous--more like Jesus Christ. It's not like they are counseling us to be selfish, mean, inconsiderate or angry and vengeful.

We are admonished by the examples of Nephi and Moroni to pray for our own witness of the things we are taught--but I think sometimes, it may be that only the things we struggle with--that we lack a witness of--these are things that actually need to be prayed over in this manner. I know that for myself, when I listen to General Conference, throughout the talks, the spirit witnesses the truth of what is being said, very strongly--as it is being said. And so, I don't feel I need to pray for a witness when I've already received it. What I need to do is make a note of it and my impression for myself and what I need to do to change. I know it is right--and if I have that witness, then the next step is to act upon it by trying to follow that counsel.

Now, could we do a better job of teaching this? Yes, probably. There's always room for improvement when it comes to teaching these things.

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Obrien
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by Obrien »

AI2.0 wrote:'Undeviating and perfect devotion to the cause of righteousness' obviously means living the commandments, following the example of the Savior each day of your life, loving, serving and having complete integrity. Listening carefully to the promptings of the Holy Ghost and following them. Controlling your anger, frustration, impatience with those around you. Reading and pondering the words of God and humbly listening and learning from his servants--church leaders and those spiritually more mature people around you, standing in Holy Places in your daily life, praying and developing a relationship with God that you come to know him and love him--slowly overcoming all desire to do evil or commit sin. Now, if you want to say that's 'following church leaders', you must have some practically translated leaders--I don't. Mine are more human than that. They are great men and women, but they aren't examples of 'undeviating and perfect devotion to the cause of righteousness'. Most of them are like me, they are striving diligently, but they have plenty of weaknesses. I don't try to emulate their weaknesses--but I do try to follow their good examples and the areas where they are much better than I am.
I guess one-liners are all I can mentally manage. I still need my other brain cell to control respiration and cardiovascular functions as I'm typing...

Actually, I have just become more and more convinced over the years that "the church" is not the only way back to the celestial kingdom. Clean living, charity, sacrifice, loving your neighbor, following the Spirit etc are all part of the Christ centered life. But white shirts, minivans, unpierced male ears, tattoo-less bodies, covered shoulders etc are ALSO viewed by TBMs as part of a Christ centered life. However, these things are vain and foolish traditions that bind us down and cause us to become superior in our daily walk over the tattooed, tank top wearing rabble. Pride of our righteousness because we follow vain traditions is the real killer of a Christ centered life.

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AI2.0
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by AI2.0 »

Juliet wrote:
h_p wrote:
AI2.0 wrote:I think from what I've quoted we can agree that he has made it about simply asking for this. While they never suggest that you 'sit on your behind and arrogantly demand it' there is no suggestion that maybe you have not qualified for this in your life yet. I'm just quoting them, I haven't paraphrased this at all, this IS their method.
Well, I can't say I agree with that interpretation, but honestly, it's irrelevant to me. I see that you and I both agree on the main thing: that we can and should go to God for guidance on obtaining this blessing, and that He will answer us. The rest isn't important enough to debate.

I know He will answer us, because He answered me. The simple answer He gave me did not make any sense at the time, but it has given me much to ponder over, and I'm still discovering new layers of meaning even fifteen months later. It has become a guide for my life, and an anchor to me.

My only regret in all this is that this wasn't something I realized earlier that I could seek. I know I can't blame anyone but myself, but I'm a very goal-oriented person, and I can't help but think how different my life would have been if someone had tried to open my eyes to this decades ago. That's why I feel like we do ourselves a disservice by keeping these things hidden. I don't know, maybe I'm just a knucklehead, but up until recently, I've believed that having my calling and election made sure was something only given in mortality to a handful of people throughout history, the temple endowment just represented us dying and meeting God a thousand years from now, and enduring to the end meant sweating out this life in misery until we die, and if I was still active in the church when I kicked over, maybe my report card would give me a passing grade and I could squeak into heaven. Though I've always been "active," this all made for a lackluster life of church activity, without a lot to hope for or seek.

If I had known 20 years ago what I know now--if we talked about it more, and taught it more in church--maybe, just maybe, I would have gotten my act together when my kids were young, and I wouldn't be watching my wife and three kids abandoning God and the church right now.

I'm serving in a bishopric, and I want to talk about these greater blessings to our ward in the hopes that they won't live under the same misconceptions that I had, but my bishop (whom I love and admire dearly) restrains me for fear of overwhelming the members. When my son went through the temple for his endowments, I winced when the temple president explained to him that the temple veil represented our meeting God after we died. And so it continues...

Anyways, I've said enough on this thread. All the best to you, AI2.0
I remember someone calling Dr. Laura a while back and they were heart broken that their children were leaving their religion. I don't remember what it was. But Dr. Laura said that the reason people leave their religion is because it is not helping them spiritual on a deep enough level, that they are asking for more questions, deeper questions, that the current religion is not answering. I sure can relate with that. I am so grateful for our church being the mother of my faith, but I do yearn for the deeper answers and understandings of things. How I wish I could be fed, usually I feel like I go home from church still starving to hear truth, the truth that satisfies, enlights, makes sense, comforts, and heals. It seems like lately church is just propoganda for how good the church is. How hungry I am for something more!!!
I'm paraphrasing this and I don't remember who it was, but someone (maybe it was Elder McConkie) talked about this. We come to church hoping for a spiritual feast and instead we get the equivalent of a couple of carrots and brussel sprouts tossed at us--so of course, we are left spiritually wanting. It's such a let down when this happens, but sometimes it is just the nature of humans. Not everyone is on the same spiritual plane--some are lower than us, some are higher--but we are still expected to love and serve and not be critical all the time and concerned with what we are getting out of it. Not all teachers and speakers put much effort into the lessons or talks--sometimes their knowledge and understanding of the Gospel is simply limited and so they don't teach us much--but I think even in those times, the spirit can help teach us, if we are open to it.


The church IS good. It is a vehicle for helping you and me to be better, if we'll take advantage of it. But, we have to do our part and be a participant, not just an observer. Wards and branches are where we learn to be saints and often this takes patience and charity. But, when church is like that, it's a good time to work on developing these important attributes of Christ. It shouldn't always be about what we can get out of it, but what we can do to share our love and light with others.

Zathura
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by Zathura »

Mark wrote: I would once again encourage reading Chapters 4 and 5 of John Pontius book Following the Light of Christ Into His Presence where he speaks first of the rebirth process and then our opportunities after rebirth which includes the sacred blessing of calling and election..
^^

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brlenox
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by brlenox »

Peas
Last edited by brlenox on February 20th, 2017, 10:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Lizzy60
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by Lizzy60 »

^^^^^^^Mean-spirited sarcasm at the expense of another person is not becoming of one who considers himself a righteous member of the Lord's church.

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brlenox
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by brlenox »

Lizzy60 wrote:^^^^^^^Mean-spirited sarcasm at the expense of another person is not becoming of one who considers himself a righteous member of the Lord's church.
Do you suppose it's worse than destroying peoples eternal lives?

bjordan13
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by bjordan13 »

Isn't this an ordinance? IMHO having your C&E made sure is not something you seek after. You find joy and happiness in serving and as a result of those efforts you are recognized. It shouldn't be bestowed on the ambitious I don't think. Only for the humble people that have without ambition or other self interest given service that would qualify them for the ordinance. And then only after they are chosen and receive this by authority.

Lizzy60
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by Lizzy60 »

Moses invited the children of Israel to climb the mountain and see God. They declined, and chose to remain in the foothills.
They felt safer there.

From someone more eloquent ----


Said the Prophet Joseph Smith after one of the most revelatory meetings in his life, “There was nothing made known to these men [the Twelve] but what will be made known to all the Saints of the last days, so soon as they are prepared to receive” (Teachings, p. 237). This is the religion of every man. Not “Take my word for my experience,” but “Duplicate it in your own life.” How far do I go with this? All the way.

Let me then come to a close. I have hiked, with my wife and at night, all the way from the base of what is known as Mt. Sinai to the top. (Incidentally, with a very sore toe. Climbing hurts, and the more you climb, sometimes the more it hurts.) We went up to where the air is thinner and the veil thinner. There isn’t time to describe the feeling, but we were able to recollect that Moses, there, had face-to-face communion with God. He came back down and said to the children of Israel, in the name of the God whose name he knew, “Now, you are invited to go back up with me.”

And they said, “Thank you. No. That’s for prophets. That’s for people who are a bit fanatical. We will stay here and you go up, Moses.”

In his absence they built an idol. The power of religious impulses goes in many directions. They built an idol—a thing—and were denied the privileges of Moses (D&C 84:23–25). That is what our generation is now doing again. We are staying down below and then claiming superiority for our judgment in doing so.

Truman Madsen, BYU Speeches, On How We Know

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brlenox
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by brlenox »

Soooooooo.... what you are saying is that Moses and Amonhi are alike. I gotta be honest with you - I'm not feelin it.




Whirled Peas

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Mark
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by Mark »

brlenox wrote:Soooooooo.... what you are saying is that Moses and Amonhi are alike. I gotta be honest with you - I'm not feelin it.




Whirled Peas

There is good reason why you are not "feeling it". Amonhi and many of his Elliaison group which includes many former and current forum members along with those others in the Snuffer inspired Remnant movement all seem to have one thing in common: their activities have taken them away from the safety of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and have put them on a path that is contrary to the order of the church restored through the prophet Joseph Smith. This order is revealed over and over again thru the Doctrine and Covenants. It centers around the theme of unity. Pres McKay summed it up as follows:


"The mission of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is to establish peace. The Living Christ is its head. Under him tens of thousands of men in the Church are divinely authorized to represent him in variously assigned positions. It is the duty of these representatives to manifest brotherly love, first toward one another, then toward all mankind; to seek unity, harmony, and peace in organizations within the Church, and then by precept and example extend these virtues throughout the world.14

In branches and wards of the Church, there is no virtue more conducive to progress and spirituality than the presence of this principle. When jealousy, backbiting, [and] evil-speaking supplant mutual confidence, unity, and harmony, the progress of the organization is stifled. …

Inner weakness is more dangerous and more fatal than outward opposition. The Church is little if at all injured by persecution and calumnies [or false charges] from ignorant, misinformed, or malicious enemies; a greater hindrance to its progress comes from faultfinders, shirkers, commandment-breakers, and apostate cliques within.15

It is the principle of unity that has enabled the wards, stakes, branches, and missions of the Church to progress and to accomplish the purposes for which the Church was established. It could not have been done by dissension and hatred. There have been difficulties. Each member of the Church has his own ideas. Sometimes they are not the same as those of the bishopric, and not the same as those of the presidency of the stake, and not the same as the Presidency of the Church; but each has had to submerge his own ideas to the good of the whole, and in that united purpose we have achieved something that is wonderful.

As I think of the future of this Church and of the welfare of the young men and women, as well as of the mothers and fathers, I feel impressed that there is no more important message to give than “to be one,” and avoid things that may cause a rift among members. I know that the adversary has no stronger weapon against any group of men or women in this Church than the weapon of thrusting in a wedge of disunity, doubt, and enmity.

The challenge is before us; we cannot fail in the divine commitments given to us as a people. Unity of purpose, with all working in harmony within the structure of Church organization as revealed by the Lord, is to be our objective. Let each member, teacher, and leader feel the importance of the position that each one holds. All are important to the successful accomplishment of God’s work, which is our work.16

The greatest safeguard we have for unity and strength in the Church is found in the priesthood, by honoring and respecting it. Oh, my brethren—presidents of stakes, bishops of wards, and all who hold the priesthood—God bless you in your leadership, in your responsibility to guide, to bless, to comfort the people whom you have been appointed to preside over and to visit. Guide them to go to the Lord and seek inspiration so to live that they may rise above the low and the mean, and live in the spiritual realm.

Recognize those who preside over you and, when necessary, seek their advice.17

May the [organizations in] the Church be blessed with the spirit of unity and harmony. May there be banished from their hearts the spirit of enmity, backbiting, and evil speaking, and may they keep in their hearts the truth expressed by Jesus when he said, “… if ye are not one ye are not mine.” (D&C 38:27.)18

Let that spirit of unity and oneness for which our Lord and Savior prayed on the night of his betrayal, be characteristic of this his Church: Father, keep them one, as thou and I are one [see John 17:11]."


Joseph said this concerning the quorum of the 12:

"Let the Twelve be humble, and not be exalted, and beware of pride, and not seek to excel one above another, but act for each other’s good, and . . . make honorable mention of . . . [our brother’s] name [in our prayers before the Lord and before our fellow men], and not backbite and devour our brother. . . . Must the new ones that are chosen to fill the places of those that are fallen, [of] the quorum of the Twelve, begin to exalt themselves, until they exalt themselves so high that they will soon tumble over and have a great fall, and go wallowing through the mud and mire and darkness, Judas-like, to the buffetings of Satan, as several of the quorum [of the Twelve] have done?"

... “Let us be faithful and silent, brethren, and if God gives you a manifestation, keep it to yourselves. . . . Do not watch for iniquity in each other, if you do you will not get an endowment, for God will not bestow it on such.”

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gclayjr
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by gclayjr »

Obrien

you say,
LDS.org assumes that "undeviating and perfect devotion to the cause of righteousness" = following the church leaders. They are wrong. Plain and simple.
So I guess that means
Obrien assumes that "undeviating and perfect devotion to the cause of righteousness" ≠ following the church leaders. He is right Plain and simple
Since you used that to rebut my comments where I referred to articles in LDS.org. I guess to you LDS.org, is not a valid source of information. You provided no rebuttal to my comments other than disparaging LDS.org, and LDS leaders, except your 1 brain cell that remains after breathing and other bodily functions.

You think this is actually rational?

you also say
But white shirts, minivans, unpierced male ears, tattoo-less bodies, covered shoulders etc are ALSO viewed by TBMs as part of a Christ centered life. However, these things are vain and foolish traditions that bind us down and cause us to become superior in our daily walk over the tattooed, tank top wearing rabble. Pride of our righteousness because we follow vain traditions is the real killer of a Christ centered life.
So I guess your body is not a temple. Where do you draw the line? Coffee? Alcohol? Marijuana? Hard Drugs? self mutilation?

Where is the line?

Regards,

George Clay

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Mark
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by Mark »

gclayjr wrote:Obrien

you say,
LDS.org assumes that "undeviating and perfect devotion to the cause of righteousness" = following the church leaders. They are wrong. Plain and simple.
So I guess that means
Obrien assumes that "undeviating and perfect devotion to the cause of righteousness" ≠ following the church leaders. He is right Plain and simple
Since you used that to rebut my comments where I referred to articles in LDS.org. I guess to you LDS.org, is not a valid source of information. You provided no rebuttal to my comments other than disparaging LDS.org, and LDS leaders, except your 1 brain cell that remains after breathing and other bodily functions.

You think this is actually rational?

you also say
But white shirts, minivans, unpierced male ears, tattoo-less bodies, covered shoulders etc are ALSO viewed by TBMs as part of a Christ centered life. However, these things are vain and foolish traditions that bind us down and cause us to become superior in our daily walk over the tattooed, tank top wearing rabble. Pride of our righteousness because we follow vain traditions is the real killer of a Christ centered life.
So I guess your body is not a temple. Where do you draw the line? Coffee? Alcohol? Marijuana? Hard Drugs? self mutilation?

Where is the line?

Regards,

George Clay

Obriens thoughts remind me of what Isaiah said would be prevalent in the last days when good would be called evil and evil good. I still would like someone to explain to me why it would be damaging in my pursuit of the cause of righteousness if I follow what my church leaders are telling me to do in my life. How are the Brethren leading me away from the cause of righteousness by encouraging me to keep the commandments and become more obedient to the voice of the Spirit and be heavily involved in service to my fellow men through participating in the 4 fold mission of the church etc etc etc? Was following what the church leaders in the Book of Mormon were telling the people to be doing leading them away from the cause of righteousness? Nephi? Jacob? Mosiah? Benjamin? Alma? Mormon? It's seems to me that when the people REJECTED the counsel of these church leaders that is when they got themselves into trouble. This is very confusing to me. Perhaps Obrien can better explain this?

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Mark
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by Mark »

brlenox spurred my curiosity so I went to the Elliaison forum and read the many anonymous accounts of those including Amonhi who have posted about claiming to having received the blessing of having their calling and election made sure. Some like this Seeker and his wife have even made a YouTube video about their experience. As I read and listened to these accounts there are just some things that I found that do not feel right to me about this whole methodology and anonymous open sharing of this glorious experience. I would encourage any to read these accounts and determine for themselves whether or not what I am saying has any merit. I am not trying to mock anyone here. I am only concerned about the legitimacy and apparent fruits of all this. I know that many on this forum who have put their stamp of approval on Amonhi and his methods along with the Elliason groups methodology have left the church and are part of groups like the remnant movement. Why are these people becoming disenchanted with and leaving the church? What is causing them to separate themselves from the body of Saints? These are very serious questions as they pertain to the very real possibility in my mind of deception from false spirits. I open them up for discussion here.


http://elliaison.org/forum/index.php?t=thread&frm_id=18&" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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h_p
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by h_p »

bjordan13 wrote:Isn't this an ordinance? IMHO having your C&E made sure is not something you seek after.
I believe it's as literal as this verse:
2 Nephi 31:20 wrote:Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.
We can see examples of this happening with Enos (Enos 1), Alma (Mosiah 26), and others. I know there's the 2nd Anointing, but I honestly don't know how that all fits in. For me, I would think that hearing God promise you eternal life would be sufficient.

As for thinking it's wrong to seek that promise, I'll side with Alma:
Alma 36:22 wrote:Yea, methought I saw, even as our father Lehi saw, God sitting upon his throne, surrounded with numberless concourses of angels, in the attitude of singing and praising their God; yea, and my soul did long to be there.
And Lamoni's father:
Alma 22:18 wrote:O God, Aaron hath told me that there is a God; and if there is a God, and if thou art God, wilt thou make thyself known unto me, and I will give away all my sins to know thee, and that I may be raised from the dead, and be saved at the last day.
Having your calling and election made sure is the promise that you will receive these blessings. How could a person want these things, but not want a promise of it from God? I simply don't understand how a person can have that kind of contradictory thinking in their head. I don't seek office in the church, but I certainly do seek eternal life. I've made covenants with God because I want the blessings God promises through them. How can that possibly be wrong, when it's the whole entire purpose for us being born?

Finrock
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Posts: 4426

Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by Finrock »

Mark wrote:It is the principle of unity that has enabled the wards, stakes, branches, and missions of the Church to progress and to accomplish the purposes for which the Church was established. It could not have been done by dissension and hatred. There have been difficulties. Each member of the Church has his own ideas. Sometimes they are not the same as those of the bishopric, and not the same as those of the presidency of the stake, and not the same as the Presidency of the Church; but each has had to submerge his own ideas to the good of the whole, and in that united purpose we have achieved something that is wonderful.

As I think of the future of this Church and of the welfare of the young men and women, as well as of the mothers and fathers, I feel impressed that there is no more important message to give than “to be one,” and avoid things that may cause a rift among members. I know that the adversary has no stronger weapon against any group of men or women in this Church than the weapon of thrusting in a wedge of disunity, doubt, and enmity.

The challenge is before us; we cannot fail in the divine commitments given to us as a people. Unity of purpose, with all working in harmony within the structure of Church organization as revealed by the Lord, is to be our objective. Let each member, teacher, and leader feel the importance of the position that each one holds. All are important to the successful accomplishment of God’s work, which is our work.16
Unity does not come about because people decide to agree, go along, or change their views and opinions because they might be disciplined and/or excommunicated by the Church. Unity is not achieved through the use of coercion, mind control, or by sacrificing your conscience for the conscience of one who is in a position to be your servant but is acting as a master.

Remember, priesthood is about being a servant. It is not about control. It is not about telling people what to do, how to live, what to think, or threatening them, or accusing them, or judging them. The priesthood is really just the power to bless others and that is it! Being a bishop, a stake president, an apostles is not about managing and controlling and demanding unity and strict adherence to your words and your thoughts. Its about being a servant. A bishop, and stake president, an apostle is a servant, not a master.

Unity comes from accepting and receiving the Holy Spirit which comes because one has a broken heart and a contrite spirit. Unity comes from all having the same Mind, the Mind of Christ, or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit has no desire to control, to coerce, or to make demands of obedience. The Holy Spirit brings unity because it is love. The Holy Spirit, or having the Mind of Christ brings unity because others will be respected for their diversity, for their differences, for their thoughts, for their ideas, and they will be allowed to live in peace according to the dictates of their own conscience. When you have no enmity towards another, then you are living in unity whether you exactly agree with them or not.

If bishops want to lead and bring unity, they must be teachable and humble. If Stake Presidents want to lead and bring unity, they must be teachable and humble. If Apostles want to lead and bring unity, they must be teachable and humble. If a member wants to lead and bring unity, they must be teachable and humble. Unity comes from accepting the Holy Spirit and living according to the dictates of that Spirit. Diversity, talents, thoughts, ideas, dispositions, notions, and humans are diverse and this diversity in thoughts, ideas, dispositions, and notions were all created by the One Master Creator. God, the Father, is the Creator of all this diversity.
The greatest safeguard we have for unity and strength in the Church is found in the priesthood, by honoring and respecting it. Oh, my brethren—presidents of stakes, bishops of wards, and all who hold the priesthood—God bless you in your leadership, in your responsibility to guide, to bless, to comfort the people whom you have been appointed to preside over and to visit. Guide them to go to the Lord and seek inspiration so to live that they may rise above the low and the mean, and live in the spiritual realm.p
Yes, priesthood is about blessing, comforting, and guiding people to go to the Lord and seek inspiration from Him.
Joseph said this concerning the quorum of the 12:

"Let the Twelve be humble, and not be exalted, and beware of pride, and not seek to excel one above another, but act for each other’s good, and . . . make honorable mention of . . . [our brother’s] name [in our prayers before the Lord and before our fellow men], and not backbite and devour our brother. . . . Must the new ones that are chosen to fill the places of those that are fallen, [of] the quorum of the Twelve, begin to exalt themselves, until they exalt themselves so high that they will soon tumble over and have a great fall, and go wallowing through the mud and mire and darkness, Judas-like, to the buffetings of Satan, as several of the quorum [of the Twelve] have done?"
Good quote.

Enmity is being in a state of opposition towards another.

-Finrock

Finrock
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Posts: 4426

Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by Finrock »

Mark wrote:brlenox spurred my curiosity so I went to the Elliaison forum and read the many anonymous accounts of those including Amonhi who have posted about claiming to having received the blessing of having their calling and election made sure. Some like this Seeker and his wife have even made a YouTube video about their experience. As I read and listened to these accounts there are just some things that I found that do not feel right to me about this whole methodology and anonymous open sharing of this glorious experience. I would encourage any to read these accounts and determine for themselves whether or not what I am saying has any merit. I am not trying to mock anyone here. I am only concerned about the legitimacy and apparent fruits of all this. I know that many on this forum who have put their stamp of approval on Amonhi and his methods along with the Elliason groups methodology have left the church and are part of groups like the remnant movement. Why are these people becoming disenchanted with and leaving the church? What is causing them to separate themselves from the body of Saints? These are very serious questions as they pertain to the very real possibility in my mind of deception from false spirits. I open them up for discussion here.


http://elliaison.org/forum/index.php?t=thread&frm_id=18&" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In your personal opinion, Mark, is it ever appropriate to disagree with the Church's position or a Church leader's position? Meaning, is there any room in your view for having a dissenting voice? These are sincere questions which I believe are relevant to this discussion.

Thanks!

-Finrock

Finrock
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4426

Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by Finrock »

gclayjr wrote:Obrien

you say,
LDS.org assumes that "undeviating and perfect devotion to the cause of righteousness" = following the church leaders. They are wrong. Plain and simple.
So I guess that means
Obrien assumes that "undeviating and perfect devotion to the cause of righteousness" ≠ following the church leaders. He is right Plain and simple
Since you used that to rebut my comments where I referred to articles in LDS.org. I guess to you LDS.org, is not a valid source of information. You provided no rebuttal to my comments other than disparaging LDS.org, and LDS leaders, except your 1 brain cell that remains after breathing and other bodily functions.

You think this is actually rational?

you also say
But white shirts, minivans, unpierced male ears, tattoo-less bodies, covered shoulders etc are ALSO viewed by TBMs as part of a Christ centered life. However, these things are vain and foolish traditions that bind us down and cause us to become superior in our daily walk over the tattooed, tank top wearing rabble. Pride of our righteousness because we follow vain traditions is the real killer of a Christ centered life.
So I guess your body is not a temple. Where do you draw the line? Coffee? Alcohol? Marijuana? Hard Drugs? self mutilation?

Where is the line?

Regards,

George Clay
It's not about the outward appearance, its what is in the inside of your temple that matters. Is your temple housing a holy spirit or some other spirit? We can look exceptionally beautiful on the outside, yet be filled with death and decay on the inside.

The line is Love. Are you using the law to bless others or as a way to feel superior? If you are not filled with the Love of Christ, then all your works will be a curse to you. Two people will be doing the same thing but one will be saved and the other will go to hell. Why? Because one was motivated by love of God and others and the other was motivated by something else.

Place your focus on the inner vessel as opposed to the outward appearance. The line is Love. Either you have it or you are a walking corpse, doing dead works.

-Finrock

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Mark
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by Mark »

Here are a couple examples of a couple posts that just don't sit right with me concerning this whole process being taught and pushed by Elliaison people. Once again I am not attacking or mocking these individuals. I am just interested in the legitimacy and appropriateness being espoused in these web pages involving this wonderful gospel principle. I have sent many counterfeits having been approached by the TLC church about these blessings available to us all many years ago. I am very leery of these counterfeits as they have destroyed the lives of many who fell for them thinking they were legitimate ways of connecting with the Lord.


"I came across Amonhi's post one day about the process of how to make your C&E sure.
I began thinking "that's a great idea, pick a specific date to ask...hmmm...let me check my calendar.."
But the Spirit was so clear in prompting me to ask right in that moment.
I thought "Seriously? Ask right now?"
I could hardly get all the words of the prayer out as I was flooded from head to toe with relief, amazement, happiness. It's like the Spirit was shouting "YES. YES, of course you do!" (have your C&E)

I couldn't believe it.
I received the Baptism of fire when I was 12, (baptized at 8 ), but I didn't know that's what it was til later. In the past couple of years, after learning to meditate, I have had wonderful spiritual experiences, communicating with Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother and the Savior, too, but I'd only seen the Savior in dreams.
I thought you had to see the Savior first, physically, to receive your C&E. I still have a lot more to learn about but it is neat how I notice the difference between listening to the Holy Ghost vs listening to the Savior - they sound like 2 different people, which is a nice reassurance that the Savior is leading me now."


"When I was 14 I decided to find out if the Book of Mormon was true. I read it and prayed for an answer. Nothing. I kept praying for 2 years. Nothing. Finally one night the Lord said, "You have always known it was true." I realized this was true. I had always had a testimony of the Book of Mormon, I just had not realized it.

A few years back, my husband and I were introduced to the idea that we could know if our calling and elections were made sure by some friends. They had received a witness that each of their's was and they testified of it with the spirit witnessing the truth of it to us. It was a powerful experience. I had always thought that eventually I would have my calling and election made sure, but I thought that would come when I was OLD.

I started praying, asking if my calling and election was made sure. Nothing. One day my husband and I were sitting in stake conference and a scripture was read, "you shall not fall." Both of us felt the scripture come with force into our minds. My husband said that he came to know this was the Lord telling him that his calling and election was made sure. This was not necessarily the moment it happened, but the moment he was made aware of it.

I kept praying and asking. Nothing. After several months the Lord said, "You have always had it." I felt this really strongly. I knew that I had my calling and election made sure. This was not the moment it was made sure, but the moment I knew it.

Wow. I was in no way perfect, but I had a stamp of approval. I came to see it as the point that the Lord knew that I would get there. I would be exalted"


Joseph Smith said the following about this wonderful principle:

“From the first existence of man, the faith necessary unto the enjoyment of life and salvation never could be obtained without the sacrifice of all earthly things. It was through this sacrifice, and this only, that God has ordained that men should enjoy eternal life; and it is through the medium of the sacrifice of all earthly things that men do actually know that they are doing the things that are well pleasing in the sight of God. When a man has offered in sacrifice all that he has for the truth’s sake, not even withholding his life, and believing before God that he has been called to make this sacrifice because he seeks to do his will, he does know, most assuredly, that God does and will accept his sacrifice and offering, and that he has not, nor will not seek his face in vain. Under these circumstances, then, he can obtain the faith necessary for him to lay hold on eternal life.” (Lectures on Faith, 6:58; see also D&C 98:11–15 and Teachings, p. 322.)



“After a person has faith in Christ, repents of his sins, and is baptized for the remission of his sins and receives the Holy Ghost, (by the laying on of hands), which is the first Comforter, then let him continue to humble himself before God, hungering and thirsting after righteousness, and living by every word of God, and the Lord will soon say unto him, Son, thou shalt be exalted. When the Lord has thoroughly proved him, and finds that the man is determined to serve Him at all hazards, then the man will find his calling and his election made sure.” (Teachings, p. 150.)


My question is simply are people treating this crowning experience of mortality with to much casualness and something that the Lord will grant just for the asking? Where is the discipleship in all this?

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