Making Your Calling and Election Sure

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Finrock
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by Finrock »

gclayjr wrote:Finrock,
Secondly, those who have been sealed up to eternal life by the Holy Spirit of Promise, cannot lose the prize, no matter if they mock the Lord's anointed servant or commit any other sin except that of denying the Holy Ghost or murdering someone in cold blood. Those who are sealed can do whatever they want and have no fear of losing the prize. It is not a sure indicator that a person is apostate just because they might find fault with the leaders of the Church.
Having your calling and election made sure does not give you license to sin. The whole idea of having your calling and election made sure is that in working diligently to follow Jesus Christ and the promptings of the holy spirit, you have ceased to be "temptable" by Satan. You no longer have any desire to sin. Your heart is completely changed. Many of us have this in various aspects of our life. I have no desire for alcohol or tobacco. I have no desire to steal someone else's property. If my calling and election were to be made sure, not only would I not have a desire for these things, but I will have no desire to sin in any significant way.

Regards,

George Clay
Clearly, there is an opportunity for those who have been sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise for them to commit all sorts of sins and unless they commit the unpardonable sin, they will be saved at the last day. My point is, just because a person is speaking against one of God's prophets is not a sure fire indicator that this person is an apostate.
D&C 132 wrote: 26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God.
How likely is this, I don't know, but this at least makes it clear that simply speaking out against one of God's appointed leaders is not a sure sign of am apostate. WE DON'T KNOW A PERSON"S HEART! We don't know if they have been sealed up to eternal life. We ought not to make assumptions that because someone is making claims that they have received their calling and election that this is a sure sign that they haven't. That's foolish and envious.

-Finrock

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h_p
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by h_p »

It strikes me as quite strange to hear someone say that we shouldn't seek after and talk about what we were literally born to this earth to do. And we don't have any problem talking about our desires for reaching the Celestial Kingdom, being sealed together forever as a family, and all the other blessings God has promised us. But when it comes to actually receiving something in this life, rubber meets the road, not some distant imagined afterlife, people seem to fly to pieces like glass. I really don't understand it.

I wish we as a church would actually talk about it more. Maybe many of us would start to realize that the blessings in the scriptures can be had in this life, and that we don't always have to wait until some hazy, hard-to-imagine afterlife before receiving them. This change in my thinking has completely re-energized my approach to the gospel and given me a whole new outlook.

I can only speak for myself, but I have prayed for guidance, asking God what my next step should be, and He has answered me. He has also given me assurance that it actually is something I can attain in this life. And that hope has been a great anchor to me through the hell I've been going through recently. Wouldn't it be great if everyone knew it was possible for them, too? Why should we keep these things secret, when we talk so openly of so many other sacred things?

EdGoble
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by EdGoble »

Finrock wrote: . . . but rather there is danger of spiritual envy by those who have yet to obtain this assurance. Envy comes because they have not received this assurance even though they believe they deserve it because they've been striving and working so hard doing all of the things on their checklists that any good Mormon should be doing, as they suppose.
-Finrock
Hmm. Sounds like a good reason to not divulge it to not contribute in making other people envious.

EdGoble
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by EdGoble »

Finrock wrote:Those who are sealed can do whatever they want and have no fear of losing the prize.
People who are sealed up have a different kind of heart than that, so they don't have the desire to do whatever but have only the Lord's will in mind, and so, they don't generally do the things you speak of, in spite of their imperfections. And I guarantee you, in my unauthoritative opinion, that they would not have it in their heart to mock the duly anointed messengers of the Lord. Sorry. I just don't think you are right about that. You can do whatever you want, and have whatever kind of attitude you want. It isn't my problem. Believe what you want. Do what you want. Have whatever attitude you want. And so, whatever you end up getting is what you will get, from whatever spirit it happens to be, based on whatever it is that you are. If you are willing to take the risk to mock those with the keys, and still think that you are worthy of it, be my guest and go ahead. I am not here to tell you how to be. I'm just some guy in front of a keyboard.

EdGoble
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by EdGoble »

h_p wrote:It strikes me as quite strange to hear someone say that we shouldn't seek after and talk about what we were literally born to this earth to do. . . .Why should we keep these things secret, when we talk so openly of so many other sacred things?
I've had lots of debates on this subject with people on this message board over the years. If in other threads on this subject hasn't been enough to establish why, there isn't anything I can say to you now. I am a libertarian. Be my guest. Talk all you want. Its your free agency. But its not my problem, and you are the one that will suffer the consequences for not keeping the confidences that the Lord has entrusted you with, not me.

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gclayjr
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by gclayjr »

Finrock,


Why didn't you give me the signal that you were again wandering into the gospel according to FInrock by saying
... in my own words
How you square the circle between what you say
Clearly, there is an opportunity for those who have been sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise for them to commit all sorts of sins and unless they commit the unpardonable sin, they will be saved at the last day. My point is, just because a person is speaking against one of God's prophets is not a sure fire indicator that this person is an apostate.
and
Secondly, those who have been sealed up to eternal life by the Holy Spirit of Promise, cannot lose the prize, no matter if they mock the Lord's anointed servant or commit any other sin except that of denying the Holy Ghost or murdering someone in cold blood. Those who are sealed can do whatever they want and have no fear of losing the prize.
with this from LDS.org
Making one’s calling and election sure is an addition to celestial marriage and results from undeviating and perfect devotion to the cause of righteousness. Those married in the temple can never under any circumstances gain exaltation unless they keep the commandments of God and abide in the covenant of marriage which they have taken upon themselves.”
???

Regards,

George Clay

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h_p
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by h_p »

EdGoble wrote:you are the one that will suffer the consequences for not keeping the confidences that the Lord has entrusted you with, not me.
This is called "begging the question." Are you privy to what God commands those who have had theirs? Are you sure that's what He's telling them? Nothing you've said here indicates that's the situation--you've only given logical arguments against why it should be talked about.

But for the sake of not arguing about this, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. If you've had that experience and know something I don't, I'll readily admit I'm wrong if that day ever comes for me.

EdGoble
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by EdGoble »

h_p wrote:
EdGoble wrote:you are the one that will suffer the consequences for not keeping the confidences that the Lord has entrusted you with, not me.
This is called "begging the question." Are you privy to what God commands those who have had theirs? Are you sure that's what He's telling them? Nothing you've said here indicates that's the situation--you've only given logical arguments against why it should be talked about.

But for the sake of not arguing about this, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. If you've had that experience and know something I don't, I'll readily admit I'm wrong if that day ever comes for me.
Its actually called lack of emotion and meh. And also this thing called libertarianism. I live my life, Believe what you want. Its not my problem. I can't get wrapped up with what other people think or feel too much, because my energy is reserved for dealing with things that are of importance in life. I have no emotion about what you believe or do. Do what you want. whether I've had some experience or not is none of your business.

If my words are of value to someone, great. If they are of no value to you, then, well...

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Jeremy
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by Jeremy »

EdGoble wrote:There is no other substitute other than just doing what you are called to do, and praying for it.
:ymapplause: That sounds a lot like what Amonhi shared.

EdGoble
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by EdGoble »

Jeremy wrote:
EdGoble wrote:There is no other substitute other than just doing what you are called to do, and praying for it.
:ymapplause: That sounds a lot like what Amonhi shared.
Actually, if you carefully studied all of the words that have been going back and forth, you would notice the key distinction. It doesn't have to do with the notion that one can ask for calling and election and that there is the possibility of receiving it in life. I think all can agree on that.

And so, most of that distinction has to do with the likely reasons why Amonhi is doing what he is doing and what he may be trying to accomplish by doing it, and the notion that people ought to share their sacred experiences openly. It has the appearance to me of an extreme gospel hobby, and this person continually does this on this forum. Its the fact that some of the things that Amonhi is advocating, to me, invite the kind of deception I am warning about.

And here is the risk: both real second comforter experiences, as well as false second comforter experiences happen to be real from the point of view that they are both spiritual experiences. the only difference is the source. And people are beguiled because they can't discern the difference if they are not careful, and do not have the right spirit about them. Eve's interaction with Satan before she ate the fruit was real interaction with the adversary that resulted in beguilement. Now, if people know what's good for them, in my un-authoritative opinion, they ought to do what it takes to not invite deception. If Adam and Eve had not been careful and wise when the devil appeared to them in the capacity as the "god of this world," then they would have been deceived. The same is so when the devil came to Moses claiming to be the Only Begotten. The only thing that saved them in these instances was discernment and being careful.

Denver Snuffer is a testament to what extremes these things can lead to.

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Mark
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by Mark »

EdGoble wrote:
Jeremy wrote:
EdGoble wrote:There is no other substitute other than just doing what you are called to do, and praying for it.
:ymapplause: That sounds a lot like what Amonhi shared.
Actually, if you carefully studied all of the words that have been going back and forth, you would notice the key distinction. It doesn't have to do with the notion that one can ask for calling and election and that there is the possibility of receiving it in life. I think all can agree on that.

And so, most of that distinction has to do with the likely reasons why Amonhi is doing what he is doing and what he may be trying to accomplish by doing it, and the notion that people ought to share their sacred experiences openly. It has the appearance to me of an extreme gospel hobby, and this person continually does this on this forum. Its the fact that some of the things that Amonhi is advocating, to me, invite the kind of deception I am warning about.

And here is the risk: both real second comforter experiences, as well as false second comforter experiences happen to be real from the point of view that they are both spiritual experiences. the only difference is the source. And people are beguiled because they can't discern the difference if they are not careful, and do not have the right spirit about them. Eve's interaction with Satan before she ate the fruit was real interaction with the adversary that resulted in beguilement. Now, if people know what's good for them, in my un-authoritative opinion, they ought to do what it takes to not invite deception. If Adam and Eve had not been careful and wise when the devil appeared to them in the capacity as the "god of this world," then they would have been deceived. The same is so when the devil came to Moses claiming to be the Only Begotten. The only thing that saved them in these instances was discernment and being careful.

Denver Snuffer is a testament to what extremes these things can lead to.

Thanks Ed. I would only add that if a person has properly prepared themselves by becoming sanctified through the spirit and has experienced the rebirth spoken of so often in the BOM they would have that power of discernment and would not fall for deceptive voices or counterfeits. Having ones calling and election made sure is not just for the asking because we are curious or impatient. It takes a serious effort on ones part with a life filled with discipleship and complete rejection of the natural man by strict adherence to the Spirit. I would once again encourage reading Chapters 4 and 5 of John Pontius book Following the Light of Christ Into His Presence where he speaks first of the rebirth process and then our opportunities after rebirth which includes the sacred blessing of calling and election. You will see some stark differences between Amonhi and his fast track method and what the Lord has revealed through scripture and his true Servants.

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Alaris
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by Alaris »

You must be born again. No man cometh unto the father but by me. Be perfect as I or your father in heaven is perfect. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

All the clues are there if one who isn't so rooted in false traditions can but have an open heart and plant the seed. If you can't become a father without first being a son.... If you can't inherit all before descending below all... If you can't be a perfect God without first being a perfect Son.... Then there are at the very least two mortal probations. If there are at least two then perhaps there are more...that's how one becomes a noble and great one. Can you become as noble as the prophets without a body?

If not then D&C 135 makes a lot more sense. The Holy Spirit of Promise is key because you have already proven yourself... In.... Past... Probations. You already received a........ Promise. You are now at a level where only certain extreme behaviors will get you kicked out. Oh Lucifer son of the morning how art Thou fallen.

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

The two verses above are the 5 th and 6 th uses of overcometh. Each use represents a successive trial and reward that may be linked to mortal probations. At some level the Lord gives mighty rewards and promises.

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AI2.0
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by AI2.0 »

Mark wrote:
EdGoble wrote:
Jeremy wrote:
EdGoble wrote:There is no other substitute other than just doing what you are called to do, and praying for it.
:ymapplause: That sounds a lot like what Amonhi shared.
Actually, if you carefully studied all of the words that have been going back and forth, you would notice the key distinction. It doesn't have to do with the notion that one can ask for calling and election and that there is the possibility of receiving it in life. I think all can agree on that.

And so, most of that distinction has to do with the likely reasons why Amonhi is doing what he is doing and what he may be trying to accomplish by doing it, and the notion that people ought to share their sacred experiences openly. It has the appearance to me of an extreme gospel hobby, and this person continually does this on this forum. Its the fact that some of the things that Amonhi is advocating, to me, invite the kind of deception I am warning about.

And here is the risk: both real second comforter experiences, as well as false second comforter experiences happen to be real from the point of view that they are both spiritual experiences. the only difference is the source. And people are beguiled because they can't discern the difference if they are not careful, and do not have the right spirit about them. Eve's interaction with Satan before she ate the fruit was real interaction with the adversary that resulted in beguilement. Now, if people know what's good for them, in my un-authoritative opinion, they ought to do what it takes to not invite deception. If Adam and Eve had not been careful and wise when the devil appeared to them in the capacity as the "god of this world," then they would have been deceived. The same is so when the devil came to Moses claiming to be the Only Begotten. The only thing that saved them in these instances was discernment and being careful.

Denver Snuffer is a testament to what extremes these things can lead to.

Thanks Ed. I would only add that if a person has properly prepared themselves by becoming sanctified through the spirit and has experienced the rebirth spoken of so often in the BOM they would have that power of discernment and would not fall for deceptive voices or counterfeits. Having ones calling and election made sure is not just for the asking because we are curious or impatient. It takes a serious effort on ones part with a life filled with discipleship and complete rejection of the natural man by strict adherence to the Spirit. I would once again encourage reading Chapters 4 and 5 of John Pontius book Following the Light of Christ Into His Presence where he speaks first of the rebirth process and then our opportunities after rebirth which includes the sacred blessing of calling and election. You will see some stark differences between Amonhi and his fast track method and what the Lord has revealed through scripture and his true Servants.
I agree. If someone wants to read more on Calling and Election, they should read Pontius' writings, because his advice coincides with the teachings on Calling and Election.

One has to ask; how does any of us even know about the doctrine of 'Making one's calling and election sure'? We know about it because the CofJCofLDS teaches about it. That means, THE LDS CHURCH is the source for what it is, and how to get it. Yet, others have hijacked it and tried to make it their own--outside of the LDS faith--and that's part of the problem with what the people who use the Amonhi username teach on this subject. They are all anonymous and I'm quite certain many if not all of them are no longer members of the LDS church--yet they are preaching their twisted version of the doctrine, which is this:
The Fastest Way to get the Promise for Yourself:
It is so simple that nobody thinks of it, (You don't even have to wash in the river 7 times). However, we know many people who have received it this way… Here is how…

Set a date for when you will ask for it.
Prepare as you wish, (fast, study, pray for the spirit and angels to attend, put your name on the temple prayer roll, etc. even consider asking others to fast and pray for you).
On the date specified, in sincere prayer, open your heart completely to God. Trust in His judgment completely knowing that he is your Judge and not You.
Ask God the following questions:
1. Have I made my calling & Election sure? – Wait for a response if you get a negative response, then ask…
2. May I have your promise, right now, that I will receive Exaltation & eternal Life? – Wait for a response…
3. And only if you get a negative response ask the following…Who do I need to “become” to be worthy of the promise? – Wait for a response…

That’s it. (The Words are not that important, just guidelines...)


In reading this, I'm not sure how anyone who has a basic understanding of Calling and Election (and a knowledge and testimony of the Gospel) could even consider this "method". "Prepare if you wish"???? It takes more than simply fasting and praying, or studying for a while--this is something that comes from overcoming trials, being obedient, keeping commandments, serving and loving others--overcoming the Natural man, submitting to the will of the Father in all things using the Atonement to cleanse our souls--in other words, becoming Sanctified. The 'Amonhi' version, which I pulled off the Amonhis' thread is nothing like what the Prophet Joseph Smith or the church teaches on this. And of course, a person who's actually to this point in their life, is not going to break commandments, commit adultery or steal. They have overcome those kinds of serious temptations and have lost the desire to sin--so that's not a concern and exactly why they have qualified for this blessing.

Having one's calling and election made sure comes after a lifetime of devotion, faithfulness and obedience, it is not something that comes simply because a person a prayed diligently for it. Praying and seeking for it is only one part. Like the 'oil' in the lamps of the wise virgins, some of what qualifies a person for their Calling and Election sure cannot be hurried or skipped over, borrowed or bought. And that's where the Elliason group (which apparently posts under the name Amonhi) have gone wrong. It IS a short cut and can't give the person what they actually desire, it's a sham and it is irresponsible to encourage people that they can achieve this glorious blessing without even mentioning the qualifying requirements which they must have.

And there's the danger of it. It absolutely opens people up to being deceived by false spirits. And, as I've read some of the claims of people who've followed the Amonhi method for Achieving a 'Calling and Election' experience, it's obvious to me they've been deceived into thinking they are seeing Christ but in fact are experiencing what Joseph Smith warned of--- evil spirits masquerading as an 'Angel of Light'. And since they are spiritually immature, they are unable to recognize this.

As members of the Lord's church we all should be desirous and working to receive our Calling and Election, but we need to beware of being deceived. Here is an article on this topic which explains it very well, for those who are interested in receiving their ACTUAL Calling and Election.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1976/07/acce ... e?lang=eng

Some quotes from the article, Joseph Smith Jr. taught:
“When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave.” (Teachings, p. 348.)
Joseph Smith said: “Though they might hear the voice of God and know that Jesus was the Son of God, this would be no evidence that their election and calling was made sure. … They then would want that more sure word of prophecy, that they were sealed in the heavens and had the promise of eternal life in the kingdom of God. Then, having this promise sealed unto them, it was an anchor to the soul, sure and steadfast. Though the thunders might roll and lightnings flash, and earthquakes bellow, and war gather thick around, yet this hope and knowledge would support the soul in every hour of trial, trouble and tribulation.” (Teachings, p. 298.)
“After a person has faith in Christ, repents of his sins, and is baptized for the remission of his sins and receives the Holy Ghost, (by the laying on of hands), which is the first Comforter, then let him continue to humble himself before God, hungering and thirsting after righteousness, and living by every word of God, and the Lord will soon say unto him, Son, thou shalt be exalted. When the Lord has thoroughly proved him, and finds that the man is determined to serve Him at all hazards, then the man will find his calling and his election made sure.” (Teachings, p. 150.)
Elder Marion G. Romney said this in General Conference:
President Marion G. Romney, as a member of the Council of the Twelve, admonished the Saints in general conference to make their calling and election sure and said:

“The fullness of eternal life is not attainable in mortality, but the peace which is its harbinger and which comes as a result of making one’s calling and election sure is attainable in this life. The Lord has promised that ‘… he who doeth the works of righteousness shall receive his reward, even peace in this world, and eternal life in the world to come.’ (D&C 59:23.)
Making one's calling and election sure is not something you decide to simply ask for and continue to ask until you get an answer. Joseph Smith Jr. made this clear:
“Then I would exhort you to go on and continue to call upon God until you make your calling and election sure for yourselves, by obtaining this more sure word of prophecy, and wait patiently for the promise until you obtain it.” (Teachings, p. 299.)
As in all things, we are to wait patiently on the Lord for his will to be done, all the while, continuing to sanctify and qualify ourselves for this blessing by the lives we lead.

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gclayjr
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by gclayjr »

AI2.0

Thank you for that post. Amonhi, was always verbose, and yet vague. I smelled a rat, because even in his verbosity, he denied the obvious truth. That is it is something you get after living a lifetime of following the Gospel. I still think my analogy comparing it to earning a Congressional Medal of Honor, is pretty relevant.

I think you should focus on following the commandments and living a righteous life, and if you do so long enough, and overcome enough of the "Natural Man", then it will happen. Not that you should make your goal to receive this specific blessing.

Again thank you for doing the homework, because I suspected it to be something like that, but it is good to get it clarified.

Regards,

George Clay

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AI2.0
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by AI2.0 »

gclayjr wrote:AI2.0

Thank you for that post. Amonhi, was always verbose, and yet vague. I smelled a rat, because even in his verbosity, he denied the obvious truth. That is it is something you get after living a lifetime of following the Gospel. I still think my analogy comparing it to earning a Congressional Medal of Honor, is pretty relevant.

I think you should focus on following the commandments and living a righteous life, and if you do so long enough, and overcome enough of the "Natural Man", then it will happen. Not that you should make your goal to receive this specific blessing.

Again thank you for doing the homework, because I suspected it to be something like that, but it is good to get it clarified.

Regards,

George Clay
I agree, your analogy to receiving a Congressional Medal of Honor was perfect. It isn't something that someone lobbies for, but comes through actions of spiritual valor, obedience and integrity. The Amonhi way is one that is essentially 'lobbying' the Lord and ignoring that one needs to actually qualify for it. And I think it is dangerous because it makes the person vulnerable to false spirits' attempts to deceive genuinely sincere seekers.

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AI2.0
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by AI2.0 »

Finrock wrote:
Mark wrote:"Oh yeah, and I would not do it either if you happen to be someone that finds fault or speaks evil with the Lord's anointed. I would make sure that you are in submission and give deference to the keys of the priesthood so you have the right spirit about you, because having that type of spirit of evil speaking is indeed an invitation for deception. And even then, I would venture a guess to say that it will not be immediate, but will be at a time and place of the Lord's choosing."

Thank you brother Ed. Finding fault with and speaking ill of the Lords anointed servants who hold the proper Priesthood keys is a violation of sacred temple covenants. It is indeed an invitation for deception.
First, this is an argument of irrelevance, because committing adultery is also an invitation for deception. Secondly, those who have been sealed up to eternal life by the Holy Spirit of Promise, cannot lose the prize, no matter if they mock the Lord's anointed servant or commit any other sin except that of denying the Holy Ghost or murdering someone in cold blood. Those who are sealed can do whatever they want and have no fear of losing the prize. It is not a sure indicator that a person is apostate just because they might find fault with the leaders of the Church.

You and I are not in a position to judge where a person is at and whether they are sealed to life eternal or to pertition, unless we know they have committed the unpardonable sin, and we can only know this if we know their calling and election is made sure.

-Finrock
You are right, we're not in a position to know whether a person has received their Calling and Election, but I think we can be pretty certain that if they are still of a mind to speak evil of church leaders or others, they aren't to that point yet. ;) (So, yea, it's pretty obvious I haven't received mine...)

As for those who've attained this level of spirituality(Calling and Election sure); They are not of a mind to commit sin. This is described in the Book of Mormon--they no longer desire to sin, but to do the will of the Father in All things--just as Christ. They follow his example completely in the way they live their lives.

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Jeremy
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by Jeremy »

gclayjr wrote:I think you should focus on following the commandments and living a righteous life, and if you do so long enough, and overcome enough of the "Natural Man", then it will happen. Not that you should make your goal to receive this specific blessing.
I remember, during a time of significant change in my life, trying to live righteously and trying to receive forgiveness for past sins and transgressions. I remember asking for my sins to be forgiven. Is this not a great blessing I was asking for?

There should be no problem with an individual seeking specific blessings. I believe we have all done it. I believe we have all been encouraged to do it.

I remember another time of significant change in my life. Again I was living what I believed to be a righteous life. I asked for specific blessings and promises. I wanted to be sealed to the woman I loved. Is this not a great blessing I was asking for and seeking to receive?

We have all been encouraged to receive these blessings. We have all been encouraged to seek/ponder/pray about these blessings. Wasn't it a goal to be sealed in the temple? Don't we teach this regularly to our children? Isn't it something we have to align our lives in such a way so that we can receive the blessing?

We should remember that "living a righteous life... long enough" does not mean a 10 year old has not lived long enough. It does not mean a 30 year old has not lived long enough. We don't know what "long enough" means. Let God judge what "long enough" means.

Because we do not know what "long enough" means, we should not assume we have or have not meet the qualification. It just might be that the blessings are available to you even now and the only thing holding you back from receiving them is your own ability to preform the action of asking.

If that is the case... the fastest way for you to receive the blessing would be to ask. Duh. ;)

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AI2.0
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by AI2.0 »

brianj wrote:This is purely semantic, but I have difficulty with the phrase make/making your calling and election sure. We can't make anything sure, only the Lord can do so.I strongly desire to have my calling and election made sure, and I hope that I am worthy of that blessing while in mortality.
Yes, of course. It is done through the Atonement of Christ--that is what makes calling and election 'certain' or 'sure' for some in this life. I think Joseph's writings make it clear that this was not something you do yourself alone--but, you DO have some control over whether or not you qualify through the life that you lead, the choices you make etc. That's the part that the Amonhi/Elliason group ignores. They disregard the most important aspect, which is qualifying for this through the exercise of your agency. You control the choices that you make, the life that you lead. You decide whether you will be obedient to God's commandments, if you will serve and love those around you, divest yourself of pride, envy, lust, hatred, selfishness etc.. You choose if you will exercise faith and follow the example of Jesus Christ in how you live your every day life. The choices you make sanctify your life and qualify you for the assurance, IN THIS LIFE, that like the Brother of Jared, you cannot be kept from his presence and having him minister to you as what we call the second comforter.

I think your desire for this blessing is a worthy one, it's something that we each should strive for. If we want this, our leaders teach the way to receive it--they are constantly counseling and guiding us in how to raise our spirituality and qualify for this--they may not say it, but IT IS the result of living a sanctified life.

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AI2.0
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

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Jeremy wrote:
gclayjr wrote:I think you should focus on following the commandments and living a righteous life, and if you do so long enough, and overcome enough of the "Natural Man", then it will happen. Not that you should make your goal to receive this specific blessing.
I remember, during a time of significant change in my life, trying to live righteously and trying to receive forgiveness for past sins and transgressions. I remember asking for my sins to be forgiven. Is this not a great blessing I was asking for?

There should be no problem with an individual seeking specific blessings. I believe we have all done it. I believe we have all been encouraged to do it.

I remember another time of significant change in my life. Again I was living what I believed to be a righteous life. I asked for specific blessings and promises. I wanted to be sealed to the woman I loved. Is this not a great blessing I was asking for and seeking to receive?

We have all been encouraged to receive these blessings. We have all been encouraged to seek/ponder/pray about these blessings. Wasn't it a goal to be sealed in the temple? Don't we teach this regularly to our children? Isn't it something we have to align our lives in such a way so that we can receive the blessing?

We should remember that "living a righteous life... long enough" does not mean a 10 year old has not lived long enough. It does not mean a 30 year old has not lived long enough. We don't know what "long enough" means. Let God judge what "long enough" means.

Because we do not know what "long enough" means, we should not assume we have or have not meet the qualification. It just might be that the blessings are available to you even now and the only thing holding you back from receiving them is your own ability to preform the action of asking.

If that is the case... the fastest way for you to receive the blessing would be to ask. Duh. ;)

But do you think the Lord would withhold this experience, even though you qualify, because you did not ask? I don't and the scriptures say 'The Lord knows what you need before you ask' (Matt 6:8), so that should not be a concern. The Brother of Jared did not have to ask to see the Finger of the Lord, He saw his finger because he had the faith to see him. After this, he could not be kept from the presence of the Lord.

There are many blessings we receive in our lives--one is the forgiveness of sins and yes, it is a great blessing--and it will be one we will need many times in our lives, not just once.

There is no set age at when a person can receive their Calling and Election. Mormon received his when about 15 years old. Yes, let God judge when is the right time. And in that vein, don't you think that pressing the Lord in the manner that the Amonhi group advocates may not be the right way to approach receiving this? Personally I think it shows a lack of understanding exactly what this blessing entails on their part.

And, as I and others have said, this Does make one vulnerable to deception if they are insisting on a spiritual experience which they are not qualified for and possibly too spiritually immature to recognize when they are deceived. If we trust God, we should know that he will not withhold ANY blessing for which we are qualified for--and that includes Calling and Election.

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gclayjr
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by gclayjr »

Jeremy,

remember asking for my sins to be forgiven. Is this not a great blessing I was asking for?
This is a different blessing. The fact is we have been instructed on how to receive both blessings, and the instructions are different. In the case or receiving forgiveness for our sins, we HAVE been instructed to confess them and ask for forgiveness. In the case of of Calling and election being made sure
Making one’s calling and election sure is an addition to celestial marriage and results from undeviating and perfect devotion to the cause of righteousness.
Rather than making it up. we should in both cases follow the Lord's instructions.

I don't know what you must do to become a Bishop. I guess some people pray and lobby for it, but that isn't how that happens. However, I know many bishops, and former bishops who think that maybe someone who wants that calling should get it just to find out that one should sometimes be careful what they ask for.

Regards,

George Clay

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h_p
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

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AI2.0 wrote:Making one's calling and election sure is not something you decide to simply ask for and continue to ask until you get an answer.
Amonhi's step 3 shows that he would absolutely agree with you on this. Maybe I've overlooked something, since I'm not one of his followers and haven't read a lot of his stuff, but I haven't seen anywhere here that he's saying just sit on your behind and arrogantly demand it. If God tells you you haven't received it, how can it be a sin to ask God "what lack I yet?"

Maybe Amonhi isn't describing the process in approved Mormon lingo, but if someone refuses to ask God for personal guidance on how to obtain eternal life, I would say they're not doing it right.

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AI2.0
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by AI2.0 »

h_p wrote:
AI2.0 wrote:Making one's calling and election sure is not something you decide to simply ask for and continue to ask until you get an answer.
Amonhi's step 3 shows that he would absolutely agree with you on this. Maybe I've overlooked something, since I'm not one of his followers and haven't read a lot of his stuff, but I haven't seen anywhere here that he's saying just sit on your behind and arrogantly demand it. If God tells you you haven't received it, how can it be a sin to ask God "what lack I yet?"

Maybe Amonhi isn't describing the process in approved Mormon lingo, but if someone refuses to ask God for personal guidance on how to obtain eternal life, I would say they're not doing it right.
There isn't a problem with asking God 'What lack I yet?'--there was a great talk in General Conference by that title. It is a wonderful way to determine what we need to work on. But, in three, he doesn't ask 'what lack I yet?' he says ask 'who do I need to become?' Wouldn't the obvious answer be Jesus Christ--we are all trying to become like Jesus Christ? Seems a redundant question. Asking 'what lack I yet' is divinely tailored for the spirit to be able to answer each of us individually--but that's not what the Amonhi method urges.

The problem I have with the Amonhi method is that it IS simply about asking God for this blessing, with no thought as to what it entails to be worthy of this in the first place. Here are their steps to Receiving Calling and Election once more:
The Fastest Way to get the Promise for Yourself:
It is so simple that nobody thinks of it, (You don't even have to wash in the river 7 times). However, we know many people who have received it this way… Here is how…

Set a date for when you will ask for it.
Prepare as you wish, (fast, study, pray for the spirit and angels to attend, put your name on the temple prayer roll, etc. even consider asking others to fast and pray for you).
On the date specified, in sincere prayer, open your heart completely to God. Trust in His judgment completely knowing that he is your Judge and not You.
Ask God the following questions:
1. Have I made my calling & Election sure? – Wait for a response if you get a negative response, then ask…
2. May I have your promise, right now, that I will receive Exaltation & eternal Life? – Wait for a response…
3. And only if you get a negative response ask the following…Who do I need to “become” to be worthy of the promise? – Wait for a response…

That’s it. (The Words are not that important, just guidelines...)
I think from what I've quoted we can agree that he has made it about simply asking for this. While they never suggest that you 'sit on your behind and arrogantly demand it' there is no suggestion that maybe you have not qualified for this in your life yet. I'm just quoting them, I haven't paraphrased this at all, this IS their method.

I don't think there's any question that the Amonhi method is not what Joseph Smith Jr. meant for us to do in seeking it. He expected us to seek Calling and Election made Sure through faithful, devotion and spiritual growth in living the Gospel and then we would come to a point where we would have the manifestation, the Second Comforter--as the Brother of Jared did, and Nephi and his brother Jacob as well.

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AI2.0
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by AI2.0 »

Another problem with the Amonhi method in that it leaves out the necessity for approval or ratification by the Holy Spirit of Promise, which should come before one receives their Calling and Election made Sure.

The Amonhi Method:
The Fastest Way to get the Promise for Yourself:
It is so simple that nobody thinks of it, (You don't even have to wash in the river 7 times). However, we know many people who have received it this way… Here is how…

Set a date for when you will ask for it.
Prepare as you wish, (fast, study, pray for the spirit and angels to attend, put your name on the temple prayer roll, etc. even consider asking others to fast and pray for you).
On the date specified, in sincere prayer, open your heart completely to God. Trust in His judgment completely knowing that he is your Judge and not You.
Ask God the following questions:
1. Have I made my calling & Election sure? – Wait for a response if you get a negative response, then ask…
2. May I have your promise, right now, that I will receive Exaltation & eternal Life? – Wait for a response…
3. And only if you get a negative response ask the following…Who do I need to “become” to be worthy of the promise? – Wait for a response…

That’s it. (The Words are not that important, just guidelines...)
From the article on Calling and Election:
Concomitant to participating in ordinances and holding the priesthood is the making of covenants. Divine covenants must be entered into and honored before a person can have his calling and election made sure. To ensure that we receive the blessings of covenants righteously entered into and followed, the Lord has established a means by which ordinances and covenants may be approved. This is through the sealing power of the Holy Spirit of Promise. When the Holy Spirit of Promise (which is the Holy Ghost) justifies a person’s performance with respect to a covenant entered into, that performance is ratified, making the covenant effective for salvation.

The influence of the Holy Ghost received by keeping the commandments also leads one to sanctification, or becoming holy and pure in heart, which involves forsaking all evil and learning to “love and serve God with all [our] mights, minds, and strength.” (D&C 20:31.) The process of sanctification comes gradually, over a long period of time, “overcoming every sin and bringing all into subjection to the law of Christ.” (Brigham Young, JD, 10:173.) It means yielding one’s heart to God, becoming one with the Savior in building his kingdom, and working for the eventual establishment of Zion. (See Hel. 3:35.) The member of the Church prepares himself by striving for sanctification; and when he has become just through the ratifying of his covenants by the Holy Ghost, and in the sight of the Lord has sanctified his life, he is a candidate for having his calling and election made sure.
https://www.lds.org/ensign/1976/07/acce ... e?lang=eng

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Jeremy
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by Jeremy »

AI2.0 wrote:And, as I and others have said, this Does make one vulnerable to deception if they are insisting on a spiritual experience which they are not qualified for and possibly too spiritually immature to recognize when they are deceived. If we trust God, we should know that he will not withhold ANY blessing for which we are qualified for--and that includes Calling and Election.
We qualify for blessings all the time, even though they are withheld. Sometimes we do have to ask. Sometimes we do have to seek out the reception of the gift. If we don't, the gift is withheld - correct?

Im thinking about baptism. Do we need to seek out that ordinance? Are the promised blessings withheld until the ordinance is complete? One may qualify for baptism but until one is baptized... one does not receive the promised blessings - correct?

As for being vulnerable to deception because we ask for a spiritual experience which we do not qualify for... :-? Have you ever sought forgiveness and in-turn received direction on what you needed to do to qualify?

Sometimes we seek specific blessings and we receive them upon request. Sometimes we seek specific blessings and we receive direction on what it takes to qualify for the blessing.

In either case, asking for the blessing seems to be the fastest way to receive the blessing. Either you will be given it or you will be given direction on what it takes to qualify. I don't see the harm in this approach.

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Jeremy
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by Jeremy »

AI2.0 wrote:And, as I and others have said, this Does make one vulnerable to deception if they are insisting on a spiritual experience which they are not qualified for and possibly too spiritually immature to recognize when they are deceived. If we trust God, we should know that he will not withhold ANY blessing for which we are qualified for--and that includes Calling and Election.
We qualify for blessings all the time, even though they are withheld. Sometimes we do have to ask. Sometimes we do have to seek out the reception of the gift. If we don't, the gift is withheld - correct?

Im thinking about baptism. Do we need to seek out that ordinance? Are the promised blessings withheld until the ordinance is complete? One may qualify for baptism but until one is baptized... one does not receive the promised blessings - correct?

As for being vulnerable to deception because we ask for a spiritual experience which we do not qualify for... :-? Have you ever sought forgiveness and in-turn received direction on what you needed to do to qualify?

Sometimes we seek specific blessings and we receive them upon request. Sometimes we seek specific blessings and we receive direction on what it takes to qualify for the blessing.

In either case, asking for the blessing seems to be the fastest way to receive the blessing. Either you will be given it or you will be given direction on what it takes to qualify. I don't see the harm in this approach.

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