What we might expect in the next 25 years - W. Cleon Skousen

Discuss the last days, Zion, second coming, emergency preparedness, alternative health, etc.
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pjbrownie
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Re: What we might expect in the next 25 years - W. Cleon Skousen

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firend wrote:From the little I have studied :shock: I agree with most of your points. I know people have been going off for decades about "this is it" rapture and all that. There is obviously so much left to do on the calendar!. Think of what has to happen just to get us back to Independence, let alone 10 tribes going back to Israel, the temple in Jerusalem, etc.

You your Obama thing is pretty fitting. Pharoah was decent of cain I think, so Obama seems to be. Interesting parallels could be? I know Obama's followers refer to him as "the one" and that has some egyptian parallels. It would be cool for Moses to come and lead us back to the promised land like in Exodus. Cool! a modern day exodus back to Mo. Love it!
You are correct, except don't get caught up in "all the things that have to happen first" as a belief that things won't happen quickly. If you do study your scriptures, you will find that the modern kingdoms of the Earth (West Europe and America) when they fall, it will be almost overnight. This precipitates most of what you just listed here and that can happen very rapidly. Study the "fig tree," ie signs of the last days and you will get closer to understanding how close the harvest is. You may not know the absolute timeframe, but you WILL know the relative timeframe if you study it out. You will know that a destructive plague must occur in Israel (America), economic and violent devastation of Zion followed by war and cleansing (in one day by fire, ie, Nukes), and a major worldwide earthquake. I don't know exactly what in my list must come first, but we are starting to see worldwide economic devastation which is almost always followed by a world war. We barely dip our toe into Revelations in this list I've outlined (mostly taken from Isaiah and the Book of Mormon). The key to knowing how close we are is knowing first that these events signal the end of the Times of the Gentiles. What causes the end of the Times of Gentiles? Rejection of the gospel by them (Gentile nations are considered Europe and America mostly). Persecution of the Saints by them; persecution of the missionaries. The abandonment of modern Israel. Finally, the missionaries being called home is a BIG signal that these winding-up scenes are about to occur.

ndjili
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Re: What we might expect in the next 25 years - W. Cleon Skousen

Post by ndjili »

I agree alot with you pj. I still think that the seventh seal didnt open in 2000 it's more like 2011-2012. I think that things are probably set in place for things that need setting up and they could be set up VERY quickly and I think many things could happen all at the same time. I think that far too many people think that we have more time than we do. Things are getting interesting.

firend
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Re: What we might expect in the next 25 years - W. Cleon Skousen

Post by firend »

Hi PJ

Ya I agree with you that things are going to happen quickly. I hope I did not sound like "all is well we have time" :oops: It does seem we are in it now for real!

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pjbrownie
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Re: What we might expect in the next 25 years - W. Cleon Skousen

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Yeah I get alot of nay-saying from backslider friends of mine, New-Order or cultural Mormons, ex- Mormons, and my family that pooh-pooh any talk of the Second Coming. They use the fact that people have been yelling about the apocalypse since the time of Jesus--and no Jesus. First, they are wrong. It's true some people thought that the Second Coming was imminent in the New Testament times, but Paul, Peter, and John set them straight. There must be a falling away first and a "refreshing of times." During the early Catholic Chuch and Dark ages, the Second Coming was viewed as embodied by the Pope and Catholicism covering Europe as a sort of symbolic Millennium. the Reformation was no different, most early Protestants were a-millennialists who believed in a sort of Hegelian milliennium (later Karl Marx picked up on this belief). It wasn't until the 1600's that you really have people begin to look forward to an actual Second Coming of Christ. And its true that people have read their own wishes into some scriptures hoping they were the people to usher it in, from the Puritans to the Shakers - and mostly in America. America has always been looked to as a place for neo-Israelism up an until the mid-19th Century. Failure of prophecies to come true in Christianity has set back a literal belief in the Second Coming since 1900 among many Christians. Darbyism has allowed many Evangelicals to re-invent it in a sort of post-rapture world where they don't have to be accountable for any misplaced prophecies.

Many individuals and sects have incorrectly predicted the Second Coming of the winding-up scenes to the Second Coming did so out of an incomplete understanding of the scriptures INCLUDING our own (first and foremost, that we must reach the year 2,000 as the seals in Revelations indicate, of course we didn't know that until Joseph Smith). Even our own church as been incorrect in placing almost three times when the cleansing of Israel would occur (Zions Camp, Utah War, and the Manifesto period). Yet, they must not have believed the Doctine & Covenants when it states that the seventh seal wouldn't even start until after the year 2,000. We also have to be able to have World Wars, a world government, the ability for a war to burn everything in one day, etc. Look at the "fig tree" to see how relatively close we are. In dire straits, people always thing things are coming to an end, even in WWII, but WWII didn't fit the pattern outlined in Isaiah where one empire was destroyed in one day through burning, and another comes out of the sea (naval invasions, there was only one naval invastion - Normany - but it didn't fit the pattern since the invasion must be on modern Israelite soil, aka America).


Nan
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Re: What we might expect in the next 25 years - W. Cleon Skousen

Post by Nan »

I used to say that I am one of the saints saying that the Lord delayeth his coming. Then I read the scripture and it acctually says The saints will say the Lord delayeth his coming until the end of the world. Or until everything is destroyed. I don't feel like we are at the end. I feel like there is a lot more to accomplish. We need to get the gospel into every nation before we can even call the missionaries back home. Do I feel that these could happen quickly? yes I do. President Monson specifically asked us to please pray for the nations of the world whose doors are closed to our missionaries would open them. We are praying for that at our house.

rocky
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Re: What we might expect in the next 25 years - W. Cleon Skousen

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We don't necessarily have to be in every nation before we call the missionaries home. We only have to preach to the gentile nation which are all the nations that are christian nations. We are already at that point. When the gentile nation finally start rejecting the missionaries then they will be called home. After that there will be a cleansing of the Gentile nations and the collaspe of the United States. We then we will go build the New Jerusalem and then there will be the mission to the Jews. After the preaching of the Jews, missionary work will go the the Heathen nations. Christ will appear several times. There is still lots to be done before he comes. But I think what is coming up really soon is the collapse of the United States. This has to happen before we go build the New Jerusalem.

firend
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Re: What we might expect in the next 25 years - W. Cleon Skousen

Post by firend »

well said rocky! :lol:

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NoGreaterLove
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Re: What we might expect in the next 25 years - W. Cleon Skousen

Post by NoGreaterLove »

Rocky
I think you got it right!

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Watchdog
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Re: What we might expect in the next 25 years - W. Cleon Skousen

Post by Watchdog »

According to Skousen, what those of us in the U.S.A. need to look for next is a major plague or scourge. Thus weakening us enough to make an invasion from Latin America feasible.

This has given me a great deal of concern as it should all members of this community. We focus tremendous energy on having the right weapons (I'm as guilty of this as anyone else) when we should also be thinking about how to defend our families from an unknown biological threat. I encourage anyone with expertise in this area to open a new thread and educate us, muy rapido!

I have to give Skousen credit as a prognosticator. I remember when my friend, who was on a mission, sent me one of his talk tapes. I think it was called "Building the Temple at Jerusalem" from about 1978. At one point in the talk Skousen says: "Write it in your Journals, any of you! We're going into Russia with the Gospel of Jesus Christ". (I'm paraphasing but SIC)
I thought this was a remarkably bold statement, because at the time I was listening to the tape, I was patrolling the Berlin Wall in my Army Jeep! But, nothing is impossible for the Lord. I now personally know several returned missionarys who served in the area of the former Soviet Union.

I sure miss W. Cleon Skousen. Who can fill his shoes now?

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LukeAir2008
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Re: What we might expect in the next 25 years - W. Cleon Skousen

Post by LukeAir2008 »

rocky wrote:We don't necessarily have to be in every nation before we call the missionaries home.
Thats right. The missionaries are called home after the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. So when the Lord feels that the nations of so called Christendom have been sufficiently warned the missionaries are called home and the gospel message is then taken to the House of Israel.
Pres. Packer said last year that the United States and Europe are no longer christian nations. I think what he was referring to was the amount of success the missionaries are having in those countries. That could be an indication of where we are. And as Pres. Packer also warned of an imminent catastrophe, probably the financial collapse, then the misionaries could be home sooner than we think.
The mission to the Heathen nations comes after Christ's appearance in Jerusalem.
And then there is one final warning to the whole earth from the 144,000 right before the Lords second coming in glory.
Last edited by LukeAir2008 on March 6th, 2009, 10:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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NoGreaterLove
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Re: What we might expect in the next 25 years - W. Cleon Skousen

Post by NoGreaterLove »

LukeAir2008
I am curious where you heard Pres Packer speak last Sunday? Where did the imminent catastrophe remarks come from?
Luke AFB? used to live 3 miles west of there.

Nan
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Re: What we might expect in the next 25 years - W. Cleon Skousen

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I live near the border with Mexico. If the Mexican government falls, and the cartels take over completely, we will be over run by Mexicans fleeing. And our border doesn't hold them back now. Most people have no idea how bad it is down here. There are kidnappings and crap everyday in Arizona. I have several friends and my parents who have illegals crossing their property now. It could get really ugly down here.

HeirofNumenor
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Re: What we might expect in the next 25 years - W. Cleon Skousen

Post by HeirofNumenor »

Nobody says they overlap but John the Revelator mentions events (sealing of the 144,000) which take place during both the 6th and 7th seals - so we can deduce that this must be around the year 2000 - an event which takes place during the end of the sixth thousand years and over into the seventh thousand years.

Cleon Skousen's idea makes perfect sense. They were prepared in the spirit world at the end of the 6th seal to then be born and carry out their great missionary service at the beginning of the seventh seal. Or maybe they were born at the end of the sixth seal. My son was born in 1984 - the Sixth Seal. He will depart for his mission in the next few months - 2009 - the Seventh Seal. :idea:

Consider a different possibility:

The 144,000 are high priests AND their wives who are called NOT to preach the gospel, but to physically lead the remaining righteous and decent people out of the corrupt nations to safety in Zion before those nations get thrashed by both the Beasts/Anti-Christ, and the plagues and disasters mentions in Revelations and other scriptures.

I don't think it will be anyone's young sons and daughters doing this mission (or preaching in Jerusalem, either -- sorry to dash hopes).

I'll have to find my all sources, but I believe Dr Skousen, Dr. Kimber, and Elder Rector explained it to me and my family in Feb 2000. I think I have some other citations as well (sorting my papers in the garage).

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pjbrownie
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Re: What we might expect in the next 25 years - W. Cleon Skousen

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Nan wrote:I used to say that I am one of the saints saying that the Lord delayeth his coming. Then I read the scripture and it acctually says The saints will say the Lord delayeth his coming until the end of the world. Or until everything is destroyed. I don't feel like we are at the end. I feel like there is a lot more to accomplish. We need to get the gospel into every nation before we can even call the missionaries back home. Do I feel that these could happen quickly? yes I do. President Monson specifically asked us to please pray for the nations of the world whose doors are closed to our missionaries would open them. We are praying for that at our house.
We only have to send the missionaries into every nation before the Second Coming, not before the cleansing and tribulation periods mentioned in scripture, IMO. I could be wrong. I just don't know if I agree with the assessment that there must be black tags on the ground in every political nation prior to the end of the Times of the Gentiles or before we have any tribulation, earthquakes, and wars.

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pjbrownie
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Re: What we might expect in the next 25 years - W. Cleon Skousen

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As I've stated before, where do the Muslim nations fit into all of this? They aren't the House of Israel, but they are close. They're also part of Gog's army at Armageddon. Are they part of the heathen mission?

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Oldemandalton
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Re: What we might expect in the next 25 years - W. Cleon Skousen

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I love Cleon Skousen and his writings. Especially his “Treasures of the BofM“, “The Thousand Year” series, and “The Naked Capitalist/Communist”. I was lucky enough to take his B of M class while attending BYU years ago. We used the “Treasures of the Book of mormon” and still have the first editions he wrote.

I have read his article “What we might Expect in the Next Twenty-Five Years” and see how he could come to many of his conclusions. Here are my comments

1.Many of the 144k have already been called; “I attended prayer-meeting with the quorum in the assembly room, and made some remarks respecting the hundred and forty-four thousand mentioned by John the Revelator, showing that the selection of persons to form that number had already commenced.” (HC, J SMITH 6:196) This selection of the 144,000 may even be complete.

2.John Pratt theorizes that, since the Savior was born IN and not AT “the meridian of time”, the 5th seal could have began anywhere from 33-70 AD. No one knows for sure. http://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/lds ... a_cal.html

3.[Thinking out lowed] Could the events of Rev 6:13-17 have already occurred? I tend to think not, but you never know, we could be wrong. John speaks of several events occurring when the 6th seal was opened; A great earth quake, sun going dark, moon turning to blood, stars falling, ‘the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together’ (?), mountains and islands moving, and everyone hiding from God’s wrath. Someone with more time should do research to see if there was a short period of time during the beginning of the 2nd century when there were earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, an eclipse, and meteor showers, all at the same time. I found a few things but nothing to indicate that this is true. This question would need a lot of research. http://hbar.phys.msu.ru/gorm/atext/vyssot.pdf http://arxiv.org/ftp/astro-ph/papers/0501/0501216.pdf http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/PLATETEC/TOPTEN.HTM http://www.volcano.si.edu/world/largeeruptions.cfm

4.I see The First dictatorship as what will come out of the ‘global solution’ to the collapse of the world economy that is now being proposed by some here in the US, England, France, Russia and China. Of course this solution won't last and collapse after 3 1/2 years.

5.Back in ’99 Bro Skousen didn’t realize that by now there would be millions of illegal immigrants from south of the boarder. Nor did he see the Government of Mexico taken over by the evil drug cartels. I agree with most of you that these will be the seed of Jacob that will scourge the gentiles if we don’t repent.

6.I don’t see Russia taking the Arab’s oil. Iran and Turkey will be allied with Gog and Magog during the war of Armageddon. Unless the Persians and Turks ally with Russia to take the oil from their Arab rivals. See no reason for it though, they have lots of oil. I know that China is desperately looking for oil resources.

7.The 2nd Dictatorship could be what the UN transforms into after WW III. The winner will decide who governs and how.

I believe that as events occur they’ll will become more plane to us. As we study and watch current events we will be given the answeres.


OMD

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LittleLion
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Re: What we might expect in the next 25 years - W. Cleon Skousen

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Very good comments by all. I really like this forum and the people that are here. I want to thank LDSC for all his efforts and the rest of you for staying close to the Lord and blessing us with your wisdom and love.

This topic is very near and dear to all of our hearts. Keep up the great comments, I love you guys.

LL

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shadow
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Re: What we might expect in the next 25 years - W. Cleon Skousen

Post by shadow »

Gman007 wrote: My uncle takes a trip once or twice every year to Guatemala to take old computers, cell phones, etc along with some BOMs. He's done this for over a decade now.
My uncle does too. We might be cousins :shock:

lamanite_mormonGirl
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Re: What we might expect in the next 25 years - W. Cleon Skousen

Post by lamanite_mormonGirl »

Oldemandalton wrote:I love Cleon Skousen and his writings. Especially his “Treasures of the BofM“, “The Thousand Year” series, and “The Naked Capitalist/Communist”. I was lucky enough to take his B of M class while attending BYU years ago. We used the “Treasures of the Book of mormon” and still have the first editions he wrote.

I have read his article “What we might Expect in the Next Twenty-Five Years” and see how he could come to many of his conclusions. Here are my comments

1.Many of the 144k have already been called; “I attended prayer-meeting with the quorum in the assembly room, and made some remarks respecting the hundred and forty-four thousand mentioned by John the Revelator, showing that the selection of persons to form that number had already commenced.” (HC, J SMITH 6:196) This selection of the 144,000 may even be complete.

2.John Pratt theorizes that, since the Savior was born IN and not AT “the meridian of time”, the 5th seal could have began anywhere from 33-70 AD. No one knows for sure. http://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/lds ... a_cal.html

3.[Thinking out lowed] Could the events of Rev 6:13-17 have already occurred? I tend to think not, but you never know, we could be wrong. John speaks of several events occurring when the 6th seal was opened; A great earth quake, sun going dark, moon turning to blood, stars falling, ‘the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together’ (?), mountains and islands moving, and everyone hiding from God’s wrath. Someone with more time should do research to see if there was a short period of time during the beginning of the 2nd century when there were earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, an eclipse, and meteor showers, all at the same time. I found a few things but nothing to indicate that this is true. This question would need a lot of research. http://hbar.phys.msu.ru/gorm/atext/vyssot.pdf http://arxiv.org/ftp/astro-ph/papers/0501/0501216.pdf http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/PLATETEC/TOPTEN.HTM http://www.volcano.si.edu/world/largeeruptions.cfm

4.I see The First dictatorship as what will come out of the ‘global solution’ to the collapse of the world economy that is now being proposed by some here in the US, England, France, Russia and China. Of course this solution won't last and collapse after 3 1/2 years.

5.Back in ’99 Bro Skousen didn’t realize that by now there would be millions of illegal immigrants from south of the boarder. Nor did he see the Government of Mexico taken over by the evil drug cartels. I agree with most of you that these will be the seed of Jacob that will scourge the gentiles if we don’t repent.

6.I don’t see Russia taking the Arab’s oil. Iran and Turkey will be allied with Gog and Magog during the war of Armageddon. Unless the Persians and Turks ally with Russia to take the oil from their Arab rivals. See no reason for it though, they have lots of oil. I know that China is desperately looking for oil resources.

7.The 2nd Dictatorship could be what the UN transforms into after WW III. The winner will decide who governs and how.

I believe that as events occur they’ll will become more plane to us. As we study and watch current events we will be given the answeres.


OMD


4.I see The First dictatorship as what will come out of the ‘global solution’ to the collapse of the world economy that is now being proposed by some here in the US, England, France, Russia and China. Of course this solution won't last and collapse after 3 1/2 years.


The funny thing is that just last week PM from Britain and Obama met and talk about how the solution to the economic downfall would be to create a global economy and setting up a task committee made up of few countries to over see it and to create taxes for the global community, it seems to me that this is not that far off.

6.I don’t see Russia taking the Arab’s oil. Iran and Turkey will be allied with Gog and Magog during the war of Armageddon. Unless the Persians and Turks ally with Russia to take the oil from their Arab rivals. See no reason for it though, they have lots of oil. I know that China is desperately looking for oil resources.

I follow Joel Rosenberg's blog even though he is not lDS but evangelical his books on the last days are excellent and as matter of fact a few things that he has written about in those books came true just a few months after publishing, anyways in his blog he mention about 6 months ago that Putin was meeting with Ahmadinejad.

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Oldemandalton
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Re: What we might expect in the next 25 years - W. Cleon Skousen

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Lamanite Mormongirl, you are right. The Russians are helping Iran build a nuclear power plant (not directly related to their attempt to build a N-Bomb) and will soon send them an advanced air defense system that will make it very difficult to take out their scattered sites where they are preparing to build Nuclear weapons. This gives the US and Israel only a small window of opportunity if they decide to try and take out those sites. The alliance of Gog and Magog is coming together very rapidly.

Old Man Dalton

HeirofNumenor
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Re: What we might expect in the next 25 years - W. Cleon Skousen

Post by HeirofNumenor »

As I've stated before, where do the Muslim nations fit into all of this? They aren't the House of Israel, but they are close. They're also part of Gog's army at Armageddon. Are they part of the heathen mission?

Dr. Skousen's opinion was that we will NOT go to either the Jews or the Muslims....

The reason being (and why the Church changed policy to NOT baptize any Jew who is recognized as part of a Synagogue) is that the Jews role NOW and in near future is to rebuild the Jerusalem temple, endure Armageddon, and to meet the Savior when He splits the Mt. of Olives in half...

He indicated that we generally won't baptize Muslims now due to the high level of death threats they have for leaving Islam. As for their nations, they will be converted once the Savior has saved Israel...this will be when they say to a Jew "Let us go up to Jerusalem, for your God is there with you" (paraphrased OT verse).

Both ethno-races/religions will be converted by the Savior after Armageddon....

minuet1
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Re: What we might expect in the next 25 years - W. Cleon Skousen

Post by minuet1 »

The reason being (and why the Church changed policy to NOT baptize any Jew who is recognized as part of a Synagogue) is that the Jews role NOW and in near future is to rebuild the Jerusalem temple, endure Armageddon, and to meet the Savior when He splits the Mt. of Olives in half...
This is the first I've heard of the church not baptizing Jews who belong to a synagogue. Guess the several people I know who converted from Judaism weren't in a synagogue. Do you have any reference that info?

HeirofNumenor
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Re: What we might expect in the next 25 years - W. Cleon Skousen

Post by HeirofNumenor »

As explained to me, this was a change made in the 90's, related to the Church promising to NOT attempt in any way to preach in Israel, and to remove Holocaust victims' names from Temple work (also another policy statement in 1982). My comment refers to anyone who is known in the Jewish religious community, as the feeling is that the time is too short, and the time is rapidly approaching when the Jews will play their part in the Last Days.

But hey, you can ask Dr. Skousen when you see him... okay, you can also ask Dr. Kimber (Skousen's son-in-law and apparent successor) for his overall feeling on this issue also...

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Oldemandalton
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Re: What we might expect in the next 25 years - W. Cleon Skousen

Post by Oldemandalton »

Two Apostles of the Lord will perform miracles to save Jerusalem from the armies of Gog and Magog for 3 ½ years before they are killed. We don’t know if their ministry among the Jews will begin before the war or not. It may well be that they go to Israel before the war starts to begin a low key missionary effort there. It all depends on the conditions we find there when the Times of the Gentiles are fulfilled and the openness of the Israeli government at the time. All we know is that when the Gospel is taken from the Gentiles it will then go to the Jews.

After 3 ½ years of miracles many Muslims may also be converted to the truth while witnessing God’s power.

Many Muslims come into contact with the Church at this time when they come over here while working or going to school. I know it’s not a great number but some of the elect from amoung them are being converted here and in other more tolerant countries.

OMD

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