Sincere comments & question to Mark, rcronk (& other

For discussion of political issues in general.

Sincere comments & question to Mark, rcronk (& other

Postby John Adams » Fri Jan 12, 2007 5:45 pm

There continues to be ongoing discussions about 9-11, Iraq War, etc. throughout this forum and here are my comments ending with a question for all.

To start with here's a quote from Mark on another thread.

Mark wrote:Why not give your country the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise?


Mark (& rcronk and others),

I've enjoyed our previous discussions/disagreements because they have helped me form an opinion on what I should be doing in the now.

However, I feel that you still think that somehow we could save things if we just had greater support of the "lesser of two evils" even though in the end we're still supporting something evil. And also in relation to 9-11, the Republican leaders, etc. I'm still unsure what truth you're still looking to find or supposedly help others find as well????

If you read through the material from President Benson, H. Verlan Anderson, J. Reuben Clark, and others, and especially from President Hinckley that has been recommended all throughout this site, I feel that "we can no longer give our leaders the benefit of the doubt because we have been proven otherwise."

I used to have great hope that our leaders were inherently good, but then as I learn more and more, they haven't been good for a long time (we're not just talking since 9-11). Maybe there's been a few exceptions, but overall we've been misled by both the Democrats and the Republicans.

So I continue to be curious about what it is that drives you two (& others who also seem to think the same) about all this other stuff.

I come here to learn about the Constitution and the principles behind it to be ready when a second chance comes. President Hinckley gave some general statements about 9-11, President Bush, and the Iraq War that can obviously be interpreted multiple ways. However at the same time he was very clear in relation to "duty" and "unity".

I guess if you truly feel that it's your duty to educate us all about 9-11, supporting President Bush, and supporting the War on Terror; then we can only return to the "agreeing to disagree" stance.

Personally I feel my duty is to better educate myself for the second chance (& to temporally prepare for that second chance), to understand true principles and to debate those versus whether a Democrat or a Republican stated them, and ultimately to unite with others who understand these principles.

I have no animosity whatsoever with either of you (based on what I feel to be your sincere desire to follow the prophet), but I find it very hard to come to common ground with either of you at the same time--which makes uniting difficult. The reason I say this that in general I feel very united with many others on this forum, and I continue to struggle to understand why we can't seem to do the same with you two.

Here's my three possible explanations. Please let me know which category you think we're in.

1. One group of us is good and the other is evil and trying to lead the good astray (I don't think this is the case, but I guess it is possible).

2. One group has just come to a deeper understanding of certain principles and as soon as the other group gains more education and experience, then we will become united. (This could obviously be interpreted from either point of view, but this is where I still feel that we stand--you and rcronk seem to still be missing some things that the rest of us have for some reason been able to grasp. You might be thinking the exact same thing just from the opposite point of view. Please help me understand where the gap is.)

3. Maybe we really do just have different duties and it's OK for us to agree to disagree. (I'm not sure about this one, but I guess it's possible as well).

Anyone else please feel free to comment also.
Rise Up O Men of God
John Adams
captain of 1,000

User avatar
 
Posts: 1064
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:20 am
Location: Utah

Sincere comments & question to Mark, rcronk (& other

Sponsor

Sponsor
 
The Mormon Chronicle

Latter-day Conservative

Postby SwissMrs&Pitchfire » Fri Jan 12, 2007 7:04 pm

Personally I feel my duty is to better educate myself for the second chance (& to temporally prepare for that second chance), to understand true principles and to debate those versus whether a Democrat or a Republican stated them, and ultimately to unite with others who understand these principles.


I'm here for the same reason you stated, and I know others are as well. If other individuals do not believe in the premise of all of those discussions, I do not see how there will ever be common ground to debate "what to do about it?"

Most of the really good debates here begin with an (often) unspoken premise that things are not right and will fail and we will have to come to the rescue. How can we work towards that with individuals who believe that all is well in Zion?

It seems much less of the types of discussions we come here for get posted during these periods of opposition. Just my observations and feelings.
"The rich can only get them (keys, signs, words, etc...) in the temple, the poor may get them on the mountaintop as did Moses." Joseph Smith HC 4:608
SwissMrs&Pitchfire
captain of 1,000

User avatar
 
Posts: 5946
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:34 am
Location: Driven

Postby lundbaek » Fri Jan 12, 2007 7:13 pm

"Otherwise" has been proven to my satisfaction.
lundbaek
captain of 1,000
 
Posts: 5614
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:48 pm
Location: Mesa, Arizona

Postby Mark » Sat Jan 13, 2007 9:34 am

How can we work towards that with individuals who believe that all is well in Zion?


Hey Pitchfire, Is that a diplomatic way of saying "get lost you non-conspiracy believing losers"? LOL

I enjoy discussions with you JD because you don't seem to carry a big chip on your shoulder about things you believe in. You would probable be surprised to see how close we are aligned on many issues politically. Contrary to what many here think I am not an all is weller type of guy. I do realize that many things have gone south in the areas we have discussed here. However I am also trying to see the big picture and I get the strong feeling that America will soon face its greatest challenges yet. There are many external powers who hate this land and everything it stands for. All the Castro's and Chavez' and Amedinijads and Putin's and On and on who wait for the opportunity to drag America's uncovered posteriors thru the streets will delight when that opportunity comes to fruition. Mark my words it may come sooner than you might think.

Do I as an American pull a Cindy Sheehan and start railing against everything my President does and painting my country out to be an evil imperialist invader bent on world domination thus further inciting the worlds population and its many tyrants to hate us more? When do I start to aid and abet the enemies of America by constantly running down everything about my country and painting every decision made by my leaders as sinister and evil? This to me is a fine line that many are crossing. It is as if many in this country want to see America fall but are to ignorant to see the consequences of such a fall.

If America is brought down by her enemies which by the way are not few in number then my life and that of my family will change dramatically. I will no longer be expressing my viewpoints openly here on this little ole forum but will be hiding constantly from bloodthirsty invaders who seek my life because I believe in anything to resembles freedom and individual rights. I don't think many here on this forum have the slightest inkling as to what will happen if America is thrown down by an international force of Assyrians that Isaiah talks of often in his book. Anyone who opposes this force will be hunted down and destroyed. The patriot act will be childs play when it comes to comparing what will become of those who speak out against this invading force of communistic ideology.

Many here think I exaggerate and misunderstand this potential threat but I think that they are the naive ones and don't have the first clue as to what has been planned by America's enemies to deal with the west. I think the Cindy Sheehan types of which America is full of are just acting as useful idiots to the cause of America's eventual fall. They to will be elliminated when their usefullness is finished. I think we as a country are the drunkards of Ephriam Isaiah speaks of in Chapter 28 who do not have any idea of the fate that awaits them from an Assyrian invading force just waiting for us to crumble and fracture internally sufficient enough for them to come in and start kicking butt and taking names. If we do not find a way to unite as a country we will all persih in the storms that follow unless the Lord decides to miraculously intervene. He just may wait a bit for that to occur and let us stew in our juices for a while. Having done research of communist methods and methodology I do not look forward to the day when my land is over-run with these bloodthirsty enemies from the North. I also don't really want to become a useful idiots to the plans of this enemy. For that reason I will not shout "America Sucks" from the rooftops and close my eyes to the external threats on the near horizon.
Mark
captain of 1,000
 
Posts: 5147
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:16 am

Postby Mark » Sat Jan 13, 2007 9:46 am

By the way JD here is Nyquist latest of which I am in agreement with. The reason I like Nyquist is because he seems to be able to actually think for himself without constantly trying to protect a pre-conceived fully invested paradigm. Our politicians are drunkards and continue to stagger around in a stupor..

http://www.financialsense.com/stormwatc ... alysis.htm
SOME THINGS ARE IMPOSSIBLE
by J. R. Nyquist

It is impossible that the human race should ever live in permanent peace. It is impossible that we should eliminate poverty, inequality, drug abuse, crime or stupidity. And yet, one side of the political spectrum talks and acts as though it is a scandal that we have not established permanent peace. Fools think that evil can be done away with. But fools rarely think of doing themselves in. To make the world “safe for democracy” was the stupidity of 89 years ago. To democratize Islam is the stupidity of today.

President Bush has attempted to refashion Iraq into a democracy, but he cannot even control the city of Baghdad. The reason for Bush’s failure may be chalked up to simple ignorance. As someone should have explained to him two years ago, democracy is unworkable where free speech is not respected. Democracy has no chance when a violent cult has the upper hand. Last year Robert Redeker, a French high-school philosophy teacher, wrote an article in Le Figaro in which he described the Prophet Mohammed as a “pillager” and “butcher of Jews.” According to Redeker, “Judaism and Christianity are religions whose rites reject and delegitimize violence. Islam is a religion that, in its own sacred text, as well as in its everyday rites, exalts violence and hatred.” The vindication of Redeker’s analysis was soon to follow. As Redeker’s friend, Christian Delacampagne, wrote in the January edition of Commentary magazine, “In Egypt and Tunisia, the offending issue of Le Figaro was banned.” Worse yet, Redeker soon “received a large number of threats by letter and e-mail.” A Muslim website sentenced him to death, publishing Redeker’s home address for the convenience of any would-be assassins. Along with his wife and three children, Redeker was forced to leave his home and live secretly “under police protection.”

If a citizen of France cannot, in safety, write his opinion regarding the Prophet Mohammed, how can there be any freedom of speech whatsoever in the Muslim world? How can there be anything resembling democracy in Iraq? Democracy is impossible where violence and threats reign supreme. And in the Arab world, violence and extremism have clearly put freedom out of reach. If there is no tolerance for dissent, then there cannot be freedom of speech. If there cannot be freedom of speech, there cannot be a free or fair election. The clergy in Muslim countries does not maintain its position through open discussion and debate. It maintains its position through intimidation and violence. It is understood, as a practical matter, that freedom of speech would signify the end of Islam’s dominance in one country after another.

Please keep this in mind: “freedom of speech” signifies “protected speech.” And the problem in Iraq is a problem of protection. No mechanism exists for protected speech in Iraq. Even if President Bush sent 500,000 troops to Iraq, the Baghdad resident who criticized the founder of Islam would have to leave town or feel the assassin’s dagger. And even now, as Islam spreads throughout the world, freedom of speech is compelled to retreat. If Europe’s freedom is compromised by the presence of 50 or 60 million Muslims, then Baghdad’s case is hopeless. The sectarian differences between Sunni and Shiite have the following tendency. One cannot allow one side to publish its opinion, since any such publication would constitute a gross insult to the other side; and the response would be the pronouncement of a death sentence on the offender.

In this context, try and imagine Iranian Shiite fanatics mass-producing nuclear warheads. What does an atomic bomb signify to people who believe they will go to heaven for being martyred in a war against infidels? If the leaders of the West are afraid to criticize Islam now, imagine the fear that will grip Europe in the future. And fear, as Oriana Fallaci wrote, “is a deadly plague…. A disease which, fed by opportunism and conformism, hence cowardice, leads to more deaths than cancer. It is a disease which unlike cancer strikes all those who are along its road.”

British Prime Minister Tony Blair says that we are engaged in a war, “but of a completely unconventional kind.” He says that we “will not win the battle against global extremism unless we win it at the level of values as much as that of force.” This sounds very good, of course. We should all prefer a victory “at the level of values.” But how does this translate into effective action? The answer for Blair is simple – and goes directly to Fallaci’s point. In the pages of the January/February issue of Foreign Affairs, Blair explains: “To me, the most remarkable thing about the Koran is how progressive it is.”

I must return to Fallaci’s commentary: “I have seen terrible things, in the nowadays Eurabia, caused by fear. Things much uglier than those I’ve seen in war where in fear we live and we die. I’ve seen leaders who used to pose as braggarts and who out of fear hoisted (and hoist) the white flag. I’ve seen liberals who called themselves champions of secularism and who out of fear sang (and sing) the glory of the Koran.”

As if to punctuate Fallaci’s point, British Prime Minister Tony Blair wrote: “As an outsider, the Koran strikes me as a reforming book, trying to return Judaism and Christianity to their origins, much as reformers attempted to do with the Christian church centuries later. The Koran is inclusive. It extols science and knowledge and abhors superstition. It is practical and far ahead of its time in attitudes toward marriage, women, and governance.” Blair then describes Islam’s conquest of Christian territory as “breathtaking” because Islam “founded an empire and led the world in discovery, art, and culture.”

Returning to Fallaci: “From Spain , in 721 AD, they passed into … France. Led by Abd al-Rahman, the Governor of Andalusia, they crossed the Pyrenees and took Narbonne. There they massacred the entire male population, enslaved all the women and children, then proceeded toward Carcassonne. From Carcassonne they went to Nimes where they slaughtered nuns and friars. From Nimes they went to Lyons and Dijon where they pillaged every single church….”

The British Prime Minister has forgotten who he is. He has forgotten Britain, and what Britain signifies. He has forgotten the horrible fate of Narbonne. He forgets, as we all forget, the definition of the word “enemy,” as if the word were an aberration – just as religious fanatics are thought to be an “aberration.” Instead, Mr. Blair appeals to our “values,” as if he might bridge the gulf that separates his world from the Muslim world. Either the British Prime Minister is pulling our leg, or he is very foolish indeed.

Let us not misunderstand. The West must be careful in respecting Islam. But we are not compelled to live in the same political space, and therefore we should defend our institutions against colonization (just as we should abandon the crazy scheme of democratizing Islam). The Muslims need not become democrats and we need not embrace the Koran. Europe and the Muslims may enjoy periods of peace and periods of conflict. If the Muslims use atomic weapons there will be an atomic war, and there probably will be such a war in the long run. It should be understood that there is no solution, no permanent peace, and no easy answers.

Some things are impossible, and some things are inevitable.

© 2007 Jeffrey R. Nyquist
Mark
captain of 1,000
 
Posts: 5147
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:16 am

Postby SwissMrs&Pitchfire » Sat Jan 13, 2007 10:16 am

who hate this land and everything it stands for.


“stands for” by that do you mean our reputation? Or do you mean just what is seen through rose colored glasses, because I literally just watched a guy beat his wife up and then drag her 100 feet as he drove off.

We “stand for” immorality, drugs, colonialism, “cowboy diplomacy,” SUVs, OJ Simpson, fake boobs, corporate greed,…Yeah, I do hate that! The reputation you refer has long been lost.

painting my country out to be an evil imperialist invader


(see above)

When do I start to aid and abet the enemies of America


Define enemies. By that do you mean two-bit, dime store hoods that hate us for good cause and are incapable of doing anything about even that? Or do you mean Gadianton conspirators who enter public service for self aggrandizement at the hands of their masters and the expense of their “subjects?”

It is as if many in this country want to see America fall but are too ignorant to see the consequences of such a fall.


No ignorance here, I’ve read the prophecies. I never said it would be easy, only that it would be worth it. I kind of want a nice place for my children to grow up, and as I have heard from the brethren, there is no longer geographical peace to be had, and the last refuge (the home) is under constant and unrelenting attack. Those who made this bed will lay in it, and therein is the patience of the saints. Interesting that John used the word patience, it is almost as if he foresaw that we would eagerly await deliverance. He must have seen me and mine!

Beware wherein your loyalties lay. Joseph Smith gave this countries epitaph many years ago. My loyalty is to God and truth. Then also to the Constitution by virtue of truth. But certainly not to the country which violates those principles at every turn. The eternal principles will endure, the country will not.

Edited to add: Read "The United States in Prophecy" chapter of Gerald N. Lunds "The Coming of the Lord." See what you want though.
"The rich can only get them (keys, signs, words, etc...) in the temple, the poor may get them on the mountaintop as did Moses." Joseph Smith HC 4:608
SwissMrs&Pitchfire
captain of 1,000

User avatar
 
Posts: 5946
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:34 am
Location: Driven

Postby Mark » Sat Jan 13, 2007 10:57 am

Your glass is obviously half empty Pitchfire. Since you can't find anything positive or good to say about America why not go over to Cuba or South Africa or North Korea or Venezuela or Haiti or any number of 100's of other 3rd world cesspools around the world and live for a while and then come back and tell us why America is such a bad place to live. You need to read some President Hinckley talks. Perhaps a little of his positive nature might start to rub off on you. You sound like an old country western song I heard on the radio. Do you kick your dog every night before bed?
Mark
captain of 1,000
 
Posts: 5147
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:16 am

Postby SwissMrs&Pitchfire » Sat Jan 13, 2007 11:15 am

Tell that to Joseph Smith who said: "The whole government is gone; it is weak as water." As quoted by Brigham Young in the Deseret News, vol. 9, p.2, May 1, 1861.
"The rich can only get them (keys, signs, words, etc...) in the temple, the poor may get them on the mountaintop as did Moses." Joseph Smith HC 4:608
SwissMrs&Pitchfire
captain of 1,000

User avatar
 
Posts: 5946
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:34 am
Location: Driven

Postby Mark » Sat Jan 13, 2007 11:30 am

Come on Pitchfire. Things a just a wee bit different for the church and its people than when the extermination order was given in MO don't you think? My point I am making is that we still have some basic human and constitutional rights provided to us in this country that are glaringly absent in many nations and lands across the globe. I would still rather live in America than most anywhere else in the world. Wouldn't you?
Mark
captain of 1,000
 
Posts: 5147
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:16 am

Postby SwissMrs&Pitchfire » Sat Jan 13, 2007 12:18 pm

Things a just a wee bit different for the church and its people than when the extermination order was given in MO don't you think?


Yes, I do, I think that things are far worse!

Image
http://www.wonkette.com/
Another quote for you, this time from the Lord:

"Let them importune at the feet of the judge...govenor...president; And if the president heed them not, then will the Lord arise and come forth out of His hiding place, and in His fury vex the nation." D&C 101:86-89

Now He just does not sound very patriotic there!

Joseph Smith and his sucessors were abundantly clear about whether or not that redress had been given and the fate that will result.

"Can the American nation escape?, No. Its destruction, as well as the destruction of the world is sure;" Wilford Woodruff JD 21:301

"Mobs will increase until the whole government becomes a mob," Joseph Smith as quoted by Brigham Young in the Deseret News, vol. 9, p.2, May 1, 1861.

Sounds like the prophet Joseph Smith saw our day to me!

For your benefit Mark, I repeat, there is no geographical peace. If I knew a foreign culture and language well enough and did not have a work to do here, I would be glad to make my bed elsewhere among other brothers. God is no respecter of persons, and neither am I. I beleive there are many many places at least as good as the United States here in the world.
Last edited by SwissMrs&Pitchfire on Sat Jan 13, 2007 12:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"The rich can only get them (keys, signs, words, etc...) in the temple, the poor may get them on the mountaintop as did Moses." Joseph Smith HC 4:608
SwissMrs&Pitchfire
captain of 1,000

User avatar
 
Posts: 5946
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:34 am
Location: Driven

Postby SwissMrs&Pitchfire » Sat Jan 13, 2007 12:24 pm

Hey Mark, don't you think that the good christian brother in the foreground of that picture, you know, the one assaulting the evil arab, don't you think that he is a tich distracted from the real issues at hand? What with satan and his phony prayer circle over yonder?
"The rich can only get them (keys, signs, words, etc...) in the temple, the poor may get them on the mountaintop as did Moses." Joseph Smith HC 4:608
SwissMrs&Pitchfire
captain of 1,000

User avatar
 
Posts: 5946
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:34 am
Location: Driven

Postby SwissMrs&Pitchfire » Sat Jan 13, 2007 12:36 pm

The saints passed laws and smashed printing presses. Do you think the church in Utah could do that now? They formed a militia and drilled and entered into open combat with their adversaries. Do you think that we could do that in Utah? They cut off U.S. Army supply trains and burned down forts etc... Could we pull that one off today Mark?

Wherein are we better able to receive redress for wrongs? Wherein are we better able to enjoy our rights?

Have we received our lands back in Missouri, or Ohio, or Illinois yet Mark? Have we received redress even from those wrongs commited 150+ years ago?

Wherein then are we better off?

I read a quote recently that prison is superior to the bondage of debt. We are all in that bondage Mark!!!
"The rich can only get them (keys, signs, words, etc...) in the temple, the poor may get them on the mountaintop as did Moses." Joseph Smith HC 4:608
SwissMrs&Pitchfire
captain of 1,000

User avatar
 
Posts: 5946
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:34 am
Location: Driven

USA still the best for me

Postby lundbaek » Sat Jan 13, 2007 12:39 pm

As for any other country being more to my liking than the USA, I've lived and worked for extended periods in Germany, England, Italy, Denmark, Israel, and Switzerland, and have worked for shorter periods in Norway, Sweden, Saudi, Libya and South Korea (I thinks that's all, except my family is from Eastern Canada). None of them would I choose over the USA.

However, as I have stated before, the LDGs are currently doing their best to destroy the USA because, with the the USA out of the way, it will be easier to federate other countries under a regional and ultimately a single world wide government. And yes, having done a lot of homework, I am certain that President Bush, as well as his father, Bill and Hillary Clinton and others are knowingly a part of it.
lundbaek
captain of 1,000
 
Posts: 5614
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:48 pm
Location: Mesa, Arizona

Postby Mark » Sat Jan 13, 2007 12:59 pm

Pitchfire,

Define enemies. By that do you mean two-bit, dime store hoods that hate us for good cause and are incapable of doing anything about even that?


Are you saying that the communist/Islamic forces of the world led by Russia, China, North Korea, Iran, Syria, Venezuela, etc, etc, ad naseum, all who have united in the purpose of bringing down the West, are these "two-bit, dime store hoods that hate us for good cause"? The SCO and its many alliances are potentially the most powerfully destructive military force ever assembled together in the history of the world. This communist inspired trans asian axis along with its many supporting satelites are far from "two-bit" Pitchfire. Maybe this article will help define the reality we are facing..



Red Storm Rising
By Joel C. Rosenberg
Sunday, December 24, 2006



Since taking office in 2000, former KGB chief-turned Russian President Vladimir Putin has built strong personal, political and military ties to Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and North Korean dictator Kim Jong Il.Putin has sold Iran and North Korea billions of dollars worth of arms and even nuclear technology. He is arming America's worst enemies for war, and in so doing, Russia has joined the "Axis of Evil." Yet on this critical issue, official Washington seems to be in a true state of denial.

In December 2005, Russia signed a $1 billion arms deal with Iran, providing the radical Islamic regime in Tehran high-speed missile and other high-tech weaponry, despite Ahmadinejad's call to annihilate the U.S. and Israel two months earlier. Russia is building nuclear facilities for Iran, has trained over 1,000 Iranian nuclear scientists, and running political interference for Iran at the U.N. to prevent us for imposing economic sanctions that could slow down Ahmadinejad's feverish bid for nuclear weapons.



Russian President Vladimir Putin, right, and Ukrainian Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovych shake hands during their meeting in Kiev, Ukraine, Friday, Dec. 22, 2006. President Vladimir Putin arrived in Ukraine on Friday for a one-day visit amid increasingly successful efforts by the Kremlin to boost its influence over this ex-Soviet republic. (AP Photo/Andriy Mosienko, Prime Minister Press Service, Pool) But that is not all. Consider Putin's dangerously close ties to Kim Jong Il:

* On July 19-20, 2000, Putin became the first President of Russia ever to visit Pyongyang. He met with Kim Jong Il and explored ways to rebuild the once-close relationship between Russia and North Korea.

* In December 2000, the Kremlin announced its desire to dramatically increase military sales to North Korea.

* In April 2001, the Kremlin announced an official agreement to modernize North Korea's military .

* In August 2001, Kim Jong Il visited Russia and met with Putin in Moscow.

* In August 2002, Kim Jong Il visited Russia again, meeting Putin in Vladivostokhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/w ... 204146.stm .

* In 2003, the Kremlin refused to rule out further arms sales to North Korea, despite increasingly dangeorus and provocative moves by Kim Jong Il.

* In 2003, Asian intelligence services became increasingly concerned that "North Korea and Iran are in talks over a plan to export Pyongyang'sTaepodong-2 long-range ballistic missiles to Tehran and to jointly develop nuclear warheads ....The two countries have been negotiating the deal for about a year and are likely to reach an agreement in mid-October," according to defense sources "familiar with North Korean affairs."

* In 2004, the CIA estimated that North Korea had "at least" six nuclear weapons and by 2007 could produce enough highly enriched uranium to produce six new nuclear weapons a year

* In 2004, the New York Times reported that the International Atomic Energy Agency recently found strong evidence that the 1.7 metric tons of the uranium in Libya's possession came from North Korea. The uranium was described as being unusable for nuclear fuel, but was enough material to make one nuclear bomb, noted the web site MissileThreat.com. The Times said "that a new level of suspicion now lurks, that North may have sold uranium to other countries or to terrorists."

* In August and September 2004, U.S. intelligence officials and analysts began worrying openly about the threat of North Korea and Iran firing nuclear missiles at American cities off the back of commercial container ships, giving us little or no warning before impact and detonation. Defense Secretary Don Rumsfeld said one Middle East nation already has "launched a ballistic missile from a cargo vessel," referring to Iran. "They [took] a short-range, probably Scudmissile, put it on a transporter-erector launcher, lowered it in, taken the vessel out into the water, peeled back the top, erected it, fired it, lowered it, covered it up. And the ship that they used was using a radar and electronic equipment that was no different than 50, 60, 100 other ships operating in the immediate area." Air Force Gen. Ralph Eberhart, commander of the U.S. Northern Command, said at the time that the danger of ship-based missiles is growing. "I believe it's just a matter of time until the terrorists try to use a...maritime attack against us. I believe that attack could come in terms of bringing a ship into port, whether it's [carrying] high explosives or whether it's weapons of mass destruction." Asian affairs analyst Richard Fisher told the Washington Times: "Should North Korea adopt this strategy, it would have the option of trying to infiltrate and pre-position its missiles in Canada, Central America or even the continental United States. U.S. missile defenses do not currently defend against either launches from the south of or within the contiguous 50 states."

* In 2005, Putin actually personally awarded a medal of honor to the North Korean dictator who is starving his own people and threatening the world with nuclear war.

* In August 2006, a Russian newspaper reported that U.S. officials are increasingly concerned that North Korea is laundering money through Russian banks and in the process helping North Korea sell ballistic missile technology to Iran, Syria and Pakistan. "The American Center for Nonproliferation Studies released a report yesterday claiming that North Korean authorities, with the help of private Russian companies, are providing ballistic missile to third countries, Iran, Syria and Pakistan in particular," reported Kommersant.

"This information comes at the same time as a scandal is unfolding over the North Korean regime's transfer of a considerable part of its bank accounts to Russia, skirting American sanctions. Although these accusations are only coming from NGOs right now, they may become the case of the next strain in Russian-American relations." U.S. officials are increasingly concerned that "Russian firms help North Korea develop missile technology, Pyongyang sells it to other problem countries, and the proceeds from those sales are deposited in North Korean accounts in Russian banks. It is only a small step form that picture to the accusation of violating nonproliferation rules."

A red storm is rising. Mr. Putin gave a speech last year calling the collapse of the Soviet Union the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the 20th century. He wants to rebuild the glory of Mother Russia. He is increasingly Russia's military budget. He is arming our worst enemies. He is suppressing dissent inside Russia and centralizing power to himself in the Kremlin. Vladimir Putin is a New Czar in the making and he is building a new anti-democratic alliance against the United States and the West.

Thus far, Washington has done little to confront Mr. Putin effectively over Russia's increasingly dangerous ties to North Korea and Iran. But the Bush administration must immediately make it clear that Russia is becoming a real and growing threat to American national security. The President and top Congressional leaders from both parties must lay out the consequences of Russia continuing down this path. And they must do so immediately. The urgency and the stakes could not be higher.





Joel C. Rosenberg is the New York Times bestselling author of The Last Jihad, The Last Days and The Ezekiel Option, with more than one million copies in print.
Mark
captain of 1,000
 
Posts: 5147
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:16 am

Postby ChelC » Sat Jan 13, 2007 2:31 pm

As I stated in another post, temporarily defaming this land where she has earned it and trying to restore her honor, is true patriotism. When my ex SIL started having marital problems and I failed to tell her she was being a crappy wife, I was not being a friend to her at all. She may not have liked the truth, but it would have been more loving for me to tell it to her than to let her continue down the path that led to her affair and divorce.

When we spent time in Guatemala for our sons adoption we were so homesick. When we touched down in Houston, I felt a sigh of relief come over my body. I wanted to kiss the blessed ground. My husband who had just experienced his first trip out of the country (furthest he had been from Utah was Disneyland) cried he was so happy, partly because our son was home, partly because people spoke English, and mostly because it is a peaceful land where we feel safe in comparison with the machine gun toting guards all around Guatemala City, and Guatemala is small fry compared to some parts of the world.

I don't think anyone here underestimates what we will face. I think you are dead wrong there. I have tried to contemplate life on the run, and really can't, but I don't doubt that's how bad things can get. We can read in scripture about lands where women are raped, everything is stolen, family members murdered before the eyes of their loved ones. I don't know anyone here who wants that to happen! What a ridiculous accusation. I know some of us here have said it will take a serious humbling to turn things around, and I think it's perfectly fine to hope for that to happen to prevent further destruction. You really think that those of us who believe the Iraq war is wrong, want to see the machismos destroy our land? Preposterous!

There's a hole in your bucket... your accusations hold no water.
ChelC
The Law

User avatar
 
Posts: 6170
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:04 pm
Location: Utah

Postby SwissMrs&Pitchfire » Sat Jan 13, 2007 2:41 pm

We have had joint military operations with Russia are we included in the most powerfully destructive military force Never assembled together in the history of the world Mark?

We sold China missle technology and leaked nuclear tech. to Iran (and all the world) too, are we part of that great army? No one can count the billion$ we have given to Russia (that fought against us in every war) so we must hold ourselves to the same standard right Mark?

We gave nuclear technology to Kim Jong in North Korea, so we must ferret out (ourselves) who support terror and bomb maim and destroy us too right?

Maybe that is why ("...and in His fury vex the nation." D&C 101:86-89")
He is furious with this nation and will vex it. I'm pretty mad about it too if you can't tell. Which side are you on?
"The rich can only get them (keys, signs, words, etc...) in the temple, the poor may get them on the mountaintop as did Moses." Joseph Smith HC 4:608
SwissMrs&Pitchfire
captain of 1,000

User avatar
 
Posts: 5946
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:34 am
Location: Driven

Postby ChelC » Sat Jan 13, 2007 2:56 pm

I was looking for a war quote that I remember but can't find by one of the founders who said war should be fought upon our own soil, but I came across this fantastic quote by Mark Twain, which so eloquently expresses the problems I have with the attitude espoused by many of our people.

"When you have prayed for victory you have prayed for many unmentioned results which follow victory—must follow it, cannot help but follow it. Upon the listening spirit of God the Father fell also the unspoken part of the prayer. He commandeth me to put it into words. Listen!
"O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle—be Thou near them! With them—in spirit—we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with anavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with their little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it—for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him who is the Source of Love, and who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen."
Mark Twain (Samuel L. Clemens), "The War Prayer" Europe and Elsewhere, pp. 397-98 (1923). Dictated 1904-1905.
ChelC
The Law

User avatar
 
Posts: 6170
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:04 pm
Location: Utah

Postby SwissMrs&Pitchfire » Sat Jan 13, 2007 3:02 pm

So the natural question then is how often have we prayed for (and not agaisnt) our enemies? It was our master who advised us to. Have we heeded His counsel?
"The rich can only get them (keys, signs, words, etc...) in the temple, the poor may get them on the mountaintop as did Moses." Joseph Smith HC 4:608
SwissMrs&Pitchfire
captain of 1,000

User avatar
 
Posts: 5946
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:34 am
Location: Driven

Postby ChelC » Sat Jan 13, 2007 3:10 pm

I feel a serious need to use a tidbit of profanity here in the spirit of the quote I've just posted, shut thine eyes and plug thine ears..

If we are faced with the task of analyzing the case for war we better listen to more than the folks making the case. We better be damn sure we have the enemy right, and we better pray and evaluate the situation regularly that the blood of innocent life fall not upon the heads of all who support the war. We better tread lightly when we do it, if it is found to be righteous. Everyone who watched the hanging of Saddam with a spirit of hatred, and gladness of heart, everyone who cheers at the explosions of bombs in foreign lands out of a warped sense of patriotism cheers in unison with innocent brothers and sisters who cry out in grief.

Bloodthirstiness is NOT the way of the Lord. I can't make my words read as strongly as I feel them! When we gather as an army of men, we do not lose accountability. Someone MUST meet the demands of justice for the shedding of innocent blood. If we get the enemy wrong, who is responsible, who meets that demand?

As the greek women would do, ptu ptu (spitting over my shoulder) War better be defensive my brothers. And another damn and hell.
ChelC
The Law

User avatar
 
Posts: 6170
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:04 pm
Location: Utah

Postby SwissMrs&Pitchfire » Sat Jan 13, 2007 3:29 pm

How does the Lord feel about "collateral damage?"
"The rich can only get them (keys, signs, words, etc...) in the temple, the poor may get them on the mountaintop as did Moses." Joseph Smith HC 4:608
SwissMrs&Pitchfire
captain of 1,000

User avatar
 
Posts: 5946
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:34 am
Location: Driven

Postby ChelC » Sat Jan 13, 2007 3:54 pm

They just couldn't understand our times, modern warfare changed the game, blah blah blah, I think the wisdom of this quote is exceptional, bolded areas added:

"Wherever the standard of freedom and independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will her [America's] heart, her benedictions and her prayers be. But she goes not abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own. She will recommend the general cause, by the countenance of her voice, and the benignant sympathy of her example. She well knows that by once enlisting under other banners than her own, were they even the banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself, beyond the power of extrication, in all the wars of interest and intrigue, of individual avarice, envy, and ambition, which assume the colors and usurp the standard of freedom. The fundamental maxims of her policy would insensibly change from liberty to force…. She might become the dictatress of the world: she would be no longer the ruler of her own spirit.
John Quincy Adams, An Address….Celebrating the Anniversary of Independence, at the City of Washington on the Fourth of July 1821…, p. 32 (1821).This appears with minor variations in punctuation and with italics in the phrase "change from liberty to force," in John Quincy Adams and American Continental Empire, ed. Walter LaFeber, p. 45 (1965).
ChelC
The Law

User avatar
 
Posts: 6170
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:04 pm
Location: Utah

Postby ChelC » Sat Jan 13, 2007 3:58 pm

Sometimes finding a good quote or a good recipe makes me want to dance, sure wish I knew how.
ChelC
The Law

User avatar
 
Posts: 6170
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:04 pm
Location: Utah

Postby SwissMrs&Pitchfire » Sat Jan 13, 2007 4:16 pm

Concerning Military Training
(Concerning Military Training)

Improvement Era 1946
WE print below a letter dated December 14, 1945, addressed by the First Presidency of the Church to each member of the Utah Congressional Delegation-Senators Thomas and Murdock and Congressmen Granger and Robinson. Word has now been received by the First Presidency from both Senators and both Congressmen expressing their approval of and belief in the sentiments, reasons, and conclusions set forth in the letter. The letter follows:
PRESS reports have for some months indicated that a determined effort is in making to establish in this country a compulsory universal military training designed to draw into military training and service the entire youth of the nation. We had hoped that mature reflection might lead the proponents of such a policy to abandon it. We have felt and still feel that such a policy would carry with it the gravest dangers to our Republic.
It now appears that the proponents of the policy have persuaded the Administration to adopt it, in what on its face is a modified form. We deeply regret this, because we dislike to find ourselves under the necessity of opposing any policy so sponsored. However, we are so persuaded of the rightfulness of our position, and we regard the policy so threatening to the true purposes for which this Government was set up, as set forth in the great Preamble to the Constitution, that we are constrained respectfully to invite your attention to the following considerations:
1. By taking our sons at the most impressionable age of their adolescence and putting them into army camps under rigorous military discipline, we shall seriously endanger their initiative thereby impairing one of the essential elements of American citizenship. While on its face the suggested plan might not seem to visualize the army camp training, yet there seems little doubt that our military leaders contemplate such a period, with similar recurring periods after the boys are placed in the reserves.
2. By taking our boys from their homes, we shall deprive them of parental guidance and control at this important period of their youth, and there is no substitute for the care and love of a mother for a young son.
3. We shall take them out of school and suffer their minds to be directed in other channels, so that very many of them after leaving the army, will never return to finish their schooling, thus over a few years materially reducing the literacy of the whole nation.
4. We shall give opportunity to teach our sons not only the way to kill but also, in too many cases, the desire to kill, thereby increasing lawlessness and disorder to the consequent upsetting of the stability of our national society. God said at Sinai, "Thou shalt not kill."
5. We shall take them from the refining, ennobling, character-building atmosphere of the home, and place them under a drastic discipline in an environment that is hostile to most of the finer and nobler things of home and of life.
6. We shall make our sons the victims of systematized allurements to gamble, to drink, to smoke, to swear, to associate with lewd women, to be selfish, idle, irresponsible save under restraint of force, to be common, coarse, and vulgar,-all contrary to and destructive of the American home.
7. We shall deprive our sons of any adequate religious training and activity during their training years, for the religious elements of army life is both inadequate and ineffective.
8. We shall put them where they may be indoctrinated with a wholly un-American view of the aims and purposes of their individual lives, and of the life of the whole people and nation, which are founded on the ways of peace, whereas they will be taught to believe in the ways of war.
9. We shall take them away from all participation in the means and measures of production to the economic loss of the whole nation.
10. We shall lay them open to wholly erroneous ideas of their duties to themselves, to their family, and to society in the matter of independence, self-sufficiency, individual initiative, and what we have come to call American manhood.
11. We shall subject them to encouragement in a belief that they can always live off the labors of others through the government or otherwise.
12. We shall make possible their building into a military caste which from all human experience bodes ill for that equality and unity which must always characterize the citizenry of a republic.
13. By creating an immense standing army, we shall create to our liberties and free institutions a threat foreseen and condemned by the founders of the Republic, and by the people of this country from that time till now. Great standing armies have always been the tools of ambitious dictators to the destruction of freedom.
14. By the creation of a great war machine, we shall invite and tempt the waging of war against foreign countries, upon little or no provocation; for the possession of great military power always breeds thirst for domination, for empire, and for a rule by might not right.
15. By building a huge armed establishment, we shall belie our protestations of peace and peaceful intent and force other nations to a like course of militarism, so placing upon the peoples of the earth crushing burdens of taxation that with their present tax load will hardly be bearable, and that will gravely threaten our social, economic, and governmental systems.
16. We shall make of the whole earth one great military camp whose separate armies, headed by war-minded officers, will never rest till they are at one another's throats in what will be the most terrible contest the world has ever seen.
17. All the advantages for the protection of the country offered by a standing army may be obtained by the National Guard system which has proved so effective in the past and which is unattended by the evils of entire mobilization.
Responsive to the ancient wisdom, "Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it," obedient to the divine message that heralded the birth of Jesus the Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of the world, "... on earth peace, good will toward men," and knowing that our Constitution and the Government set up under it were inspired of God and should be preserved to the blessing not only of our own citizenry but, as an example, to the blessing of all the world, we have the honor respectfully to urge that you do your utmost to defeat any plan designed to bring about the compulsory military service of our citizenry. Should it be urged that our complete armament is necessary for our safety, it may be confidently replied that a proper foreign policy, implemented by an effective diplomacy, can avert the dangers that are feared. What this country needs and what the world needs, is a will for peace, not war. God will help our efforts to bring this about.
Respectfully submitted,
The First Presidency
"The rich can only get them (keys, signs, words, etc...) in the temple, the poor may get them on the mountaintop as did Moses." Joseph Smith HC 4:608
SwissMrs&Pitchfire
captain of 1,000

User avatar
 
Posts: 5946
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:34 am
Location: Driven

Postby John Adams » Sat Jan 13, 2007 4:24 pm

Mark,

I think all I can say is that we're back to agreeing to disagree. For some reason that I can't understand in relation to the members of this forum, you continue to hold a continued passion in what you say.

I'm still not sure what you expect from the rest of us here on this forum. All I can guess is that maybe you feel that many of us here are part of the reason our enemies will prevail and out of a sense of duty want to fix us.

Some Democrats probably want President Bush to fail not because of any legitimate reasons, but purely out of pride. Maybe you feel that we are part of this group (and if we were then I could understand why you try so hard to convince us in regards to what you post). However I can assure you that we are not part of this group.

We are seeking to understand eternal principles relating to government (even if every once in a while Cindy Sheehan, Keith Olberrman, Ted Kennedy, etc. actually quote these principles). If in seeking to understand these principles I end up doing something to supposedly help the enemy then I'm still at peace with going before my Maker maybe sooner rather than later if that is to be the consequence.

To conclude, I'll reference my original post.

1. I don't think either of us is evil, there's just a continued misunderstanding.
2. I still hope that eventually you will understand where the rest of us are coming from.
3. If for some reason you do truly feel that it's your duty to fix the rest of us so we don't make the USA even worse, then good luck, keep trying; but we'll probably just end up agreeing to disagree in the end.
Rise Up O Men of God
John Adams
captain of 1,000

User avatar
 
Posts: 1064
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:20 am
Location: Utah

Postby SwissMrs&Pitchfire » Sat Jan 13, 2007 7:52 pm

By their fruits ye shall know them...

BBC - Thirty thousand people have gathered in the US city of Las Vegas for the annual convention of the pornography industry. The scale of the Adult Entertainment Expo reflects the huge growth in a business which is said to be bigger than Hollywood and worth $57bn. Estimates of its annual contribution to the US economy range from $12bn-$20bn.

One of the reasons for its recent success is the pioneering use of new technology - video on the internet and use of moving images on mobile phones. . .

There are an estimated 200 pornographic films shot in the United States every week. Improving production and distribution methods has helped to cut costs.
"The rich can only get them (keys, signs, words, etc...) in the temple, the poor may get them on the mountaintop as did Moses." Joseph Smith HC 4:608
SwissMrs&Pitchfire
captain of 1,000

User avatar
 
Posts: 5946
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:34 am
Location: Driven

Postby lundbaek » Sat Jan 13, 2007 8:34 pm

A while ago there seemed to be some debate about the goodness of the USA. I stated that I’ve found no other country I would prefer to live in. But if I were walking in darkness at noonday I might easily believe all is well in Zion. The Church is growing in numbers and more temples are being built. More and more people are searching out their family history. We Americans even have a Republican in the White House, which seems to give conservatives license to kick back and ignore the subtle and not so subtle warnings that we are not in control of our government as originally intended, and our freedoms and liberties are being deliberately eroded away. And I am confident that Americans still have more freedoms/liberties than citizens of any other country. But if our country and its government are in great shape, why have Apostles and Prophets sounded warnings like these, and I suggest we read them carefully. These and the many similar statements would not have been made as they were if all is really well in Zion and things were going well in the USA. Those men may have been old men, but they were not stupid old men. There were educated as well as inspired.

“[Satan] plans to destroy liberty and freedom—economic, political, and religious, and to set up in place thereof the greatest, most widespread, and most complete tyranny that has ever oppressed men. He is working under such perfect disguise that many do not recognize either him or his methods.” (Message of the First Presidency, in Conference Report, October 1942, p. 13)

“There are some who feel that the fight for freedom is separate from the gospel. They express it in several ways, but it generally boils down to this: Just live the gospel; there’s no need to get involved in trying to save freedom and the Constitution or to stop communism. Of course, this is dangerous reasoning, because in reality you cannot fully live the gospel without working to save freedom and the Constitution, and to stop communism ...our stand for freedom is a most basic part of our religion.” (Ezra Taft Benson, General Conference, October 1966)

“Satan has control now. No matter where you look, he is in control, even in our own land. He is guiding the governments as far as the Lord will permit him. That is why there is so much strife, turmoil, confusion all over the earth. One master mind is governing the nations. It is not the President of the United States...it is not the king or government of England or any other land; it is Satan himself.” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 3, pp. 314-315)

“Our great Constitution has been beaten and torn until now it hangs by a single thread, and that thread is our franchise to vote.” (Ezra Taft Benson, 1976, Freeman Institute, Provo, Utah)

“I testify that wickedness is rapidly expanding in every segment of our society. (See D&C 1:14–16; D&C 84:49–53.) It is more highly organized, more cleverly disguised, and more powerfully promoted than ever before. Secret combinations lusting for power, gain, and glory are flourishing. A secret combination that seeks to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries is increasing its evil influence and control over America and the entire world”. (See Ether 8:18–25.) (President Benson, October General Conference, 1988)








“...(A) neutralizer that the devil (uses) most effectively...is simply this: “Don’t do anything in the fight for freedom until the Church sets up its own program to save the Constitution.”...Maybe the Lord will never set up a specific Church program for the purpose of saving the Constitution. Perhaps if he set up one at this time it might split the Church asunder, and perhaps he does not want that to happen yet, for not all the wheat and tares are fully ripe. The Prophet Joseph Smith declared it will be the elders of Israel who will step forward to help save the Constitution, not the Church!” (Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, April 1965)

To those who think it is countries like Russia, China, North Korea, Iran, Syria, Venezuela that are ultimately trying to bring America and the West down, consider that those countries would be still back in the early 1900's in technology save for the transfer of millions of dollars and atom bomb, vehicle manufacture, aircraft and aircraft engine, and missile technology to Russia and China. By way of example, there was a bit of excitement recently at McCarran Airoport in Las Vegas with the arrival of the world's largest aircraft, a Russian Antonov 225. Did you see it on TV or read about in any of the local or national rags? A bunch of my old engineering mates (all retired now) who worked for G.E. in the aircraft engine business, just by looking at pictures of plane, can see American technology all over the thing. Some of us had even worked with Russians at times in building turbine engines for them which they were able to back-engineer and improve on. And that’s just part of the scam.
lundbaek
captain of 1,000
 
Posts: 5614
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:48 pm
Location: Mesa, Arizona

Postby jbalm » Sun Jan 14, 2007 2:02 pm

Do I as an American pull a Cindy Sheehan and start railing against everything my President does and painting my country out to be an evil imperialist invader bent on world domination thus further inciting the worlds population and its many tyrants to hate us more?


You are setting up a false dichotomy. Just because we don't believe that all is well in Zion, does not mean we fall into the camp of those that openly embrace communists. In fact, it is quite rude of you to suggest that since you know that communism is the polar opposite of our beliefs.

Such is typical in American politics today. We are led to believe that if we don't buy the party line, then we must be one of "them."

But I think those on this forum have freed themselves from that paradigm and realize that there are more than the two commonly touted, unsatisfactory choices.

Yes, of course there are powerful external enemies who want to destroy us. And they wouldn't have a prayer of doing so if there weren't so many internal enemies willing to assist them.

So, the question becomes what do we do?

Mark, correct me if I am wrong, but your solution to this nation's woes is to militarily attack, or at the least intimidate, those who present a threat. That, by the way, seems to be the dominant Republican point of view.

The Democrats' position is to either pretend there is no external threat, or to appease those threats that do appear.

Not to be presumptuous, but I believe most on this forum take an approach based on Mormon doctrine, which is largely in agreement with the views of the founding fathers. We believe that America is best served by freeing ourselves from international entanglements (which always seem to work to our detriment), and embracing peace while at the the same time strengthening ourselves morally, spiritually, and physically, relying on Heavenly Father to help us protect ourselves from the external enemies. He has promised to do so if we are righteous.

Unfortunately, the approach espoused by most on this forum will never be considered seriously as long as Republicans and Democrats run the show. Instead, we will either take the Republican approach, or the Democrat approach, both of which are doomed to failure.

Repentance is more powerful than anything in our military arsenal. Most just don't realize it.
jbalm
captain of 1,000

User avatar
 
Posts: 2149
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 7:28 am

Postby Mark » Sun Jan 14, 2007 4:01 pm

I have not accused anyone here of opening embracing communism jbalm. You are misunderstanding my points. I do believe that there are individuals like Sheehan who are sympathetic to the causes of America's enemies. They are willing to go over to foreign lands like Cuba and Venezuela and rail against the United States and its military. However, you don't see them saying anything about the butchers of tyranny that operate those same lands that they readily diss America. I can only surmise that they are anti-American and want to see America defeated. Many of the anti=war rallies in this country today are sponsored and operated by communist inspired causes and organizations. They will readily attack America for every conceived ill in todays world but they lend a blind eye to all the injustices and slaughters done in the name of communist regimes and dictators. These are the people that I feel are disloyal to America.

However I do see a potential problem in many of the conspiracy theories hatched on the internet today. Tim McVeigh is a perfect example of this danger. Some anarcists are more than happy to back their theories with actions by blowing up federal buildings and such. Obviously you can see the dangers of this type of reaction.

My main concern with those who believe that the US government is responsible for all the terrorist actions that occur in the nation today is that when another major terrorist plan is put into action and our country is vunerable to lawlessness and anarchy there will be a cry among many government conspiratorialists that demands justice in the form of storming the capital and holding the President completely responsible. This can easily lead to total breakdown and complete chaos and mobocracy mentalities. If in fact these terrorist operations really are done by external and infiltrated internal enemies such as Al Queda or communist operatives from the FSB or KGB then at a time when we must unite as a nation we will be totally fractured and this will just play right into the hands of those who want to destroy us.

I still have seen no solid evidence and proof that our President wants to in fact see America die and be over-run by communist forces as we have discussed. Other than a bunch of theories I don't think anyone here can look into the heart of the President and see that He is in cahoots with the communists or Islamic terrorists to bring America to its knees and have this land over-run with enemy forces who want to rape, pillage, and kill anyone who still believes in freedom. Therefore I know that when this powerplay is actually brought into reality many here most likely have already made up their minds that our own government is the conspirators in this plan and must be dealt with accordingly. If in fact they turn out to be wrong in this action it will be too late to save our land from these external enemies who want to kill us and take our land.

If an external enemy wants to do such a dastardly deed don't you think that they would love to deflect any blame for their actions to our own government officials thus shielding themselves from any blame. This is why dictators like Chavez and Amedinijad have been more than happy to echo the conspiracy theorists accusations against the President and other government officials as it relates to 9-11 etc. They want the Americans completely fractured and hating their own government because it makes their jobs much easier when they actually participate in our demise. Of course we are a worldly and often wicked nation who the Lord will humble by using external forces of evil to do the job. He has said that this would be the case. However I do not want to give up the fight and help or assist these wicked powers in any way. Therefore I am very careful at throwing out accusations against our leaders based upon theory or supposition. I continue to think that they are for the most part drunkards who stumble because of pride and conceit. I do not want to be a useful idiot in the cause of America's demise. I hope this explains better my reasons for believing as I do.
Mark
captain of 1,000
 
Posts: 5147
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:16 am

Postby SwissMrs&Pitchfire » Sun Jan 14, 2007 6:25 pm

It was clear where you stood before Mark.

I was on the USS Leftwich a destroyer, a few years back. Above the bridge there was a coaming that vented the breeze up and forward of the bridge. We found that if you through a soda can, or spit forward that it would catch the updraft and fly up and then back over our heads and land behind us on deck. If you weren't careful you would catch it in the face. That's how I see your useful idiot comment Mark.

You keep playing innocent and then throwing out insinuations that everyone here is Cindy Sheehan. Your going to catch it in the face Mark! You and others take offense when I am open and bold, but that is not half so offensive as a coward that speaks in insinuation and nuance. Say what you mean and mean what you say (and then catch hell for it like I do).

Your post is full of contradictions, can you not see them?

I cannot esteem one mans sins above another simply because he is on my side. All governments will be thrown down and ended Mark. None of them have made the cut. Don't abandon principle to follow establishment!
"The rich can only get them (keys, signs, words, etc...) in the temple, the poor may get them on the mountaintop as did Moses." Joseph Smith HC 4:608
SwissMrs&Pitchfire
captain of 1,000

User avatar
 
Posts: 5946
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:34 am
Location: Driven

Postby Mark » Sun Jan 14, 2007 7:06 pm

Look Pitchfire your ongoing ad hominem attacks on me and my posts are really starting to wear thin. Please just ignore what I post and don't feel it your responsibility to take ongoing shots at me with your biting insinuations of things that I never said or meant. I have just been responding to others who show a sense of civility in what they post. You seem to lack that ability to carry on a civil and unsarcastic tone with those whom you disagree. Lets just agree to disagree and stop the banter. Okay?
Mark
captain of 1,000
 
Posts: 5147
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:16 am

Next

Return to General Discussions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: a_member, Elendil, elijahsson, jbalm, Still Learning, Thomas, Toto and 32 guests