The Book of Mormons Clear Message on Taxes

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The Book of Mormons Clear Message on Taxes

Postby Stephen » Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:45 am

Here is a list of every scripture in the Book of Mormon that comes up when an electronic search for the word "tax" is done. In this book that was "written for our day" a clear message is sent on the topic. Read the verses...and answer the questions. (I'd rather have you think about it...than tell you all of my conclusions :D )

Ether 10:5-6

5 And it came to pass that Riplakish did not do that which was right in the sight of the Lord, for he did have many wives and concubines, and did lay that upon men’s shoulders which was grievous to be borne; yea, he did tax them with heavy taxes; and with the taxes he did build many spacious buildings.
6 And he did erect him an exceedingly beautiful throne; and he did build many prisons, and whoso would not be subject unto taxes he did cast into prison; and whoso was not able to pay taxes he did cast into prison; and he did cause that they should labor continually for their support; and whoso refused to labor he did cause to be put to death.


How does the Lord feel about heavy taxes?

What did the government do with the money collected?

Why did the people have to labor continually for their support?

If a person didn't pay taxes...what happened to them?

How is this like our current situation?


Mosiah 7:15,22-23

15 For behold, we are in bondage to the Lamanites, and are taxed with a tax which is grievous to be borne. And now, behold, our brethren will deliver us out of our bondage, or out of the hands of the Lamanites, and we will be their slaves; for it is better that we be slaves to the Nephites than to pay tribute to the king of the Lamanites.

22 And all this he did, for the sole purpose of bringing this people into subjection or into bondage. And behold, we at this time do pay tribute to the king of the Lamanites, to the amount of one half of our corn, and our barley, and even all our grain of every kind, and one half of the increase of our flocks and our herds; and even one half of all we have or possess the king of the Lamanites doth exact of us, or our lives.
23 And now, is not this grievous to be borne? And is not this, our affliction, great? Now behold, how great reason we have to mourn.


How much in taxes did the people of Limhi pay?

If you add all of the various taxes together that we pay in America (there are a lot more than the income tax!) can we also be at that same rate?

Why does Limhi use the word bondage?

Could we say the same thing about us?

What happened to the people if they didn't pay their taxes?

This is the second verse in a row that mentions death as a repercussion for not paying taxes. Is it reasonable or unreasonable to believe that such could be in our future?

Why would Limhi choose slavery over taxes?!


Mosiah 11:3,6

3 And he laid a tax of one fifth part of all they possessed, a fifth part of their gold and of their silver, and a fifth part of their ziff, and of their copper, and of their brass and their iron; and a fifth part of their fatlings; and also a fifth part of all their grain.
• • •
6 Yea, and thus they were supported in their laziness, and in their idolatry, and in their whoredoms, by the taxes which king Noah had put upon his people; thus did the people labor exceedingly to support iniquity.


What did the government do with the tax money?

If these people were "laboring exceedingly" to keep up at a 1/5 tax rate....what are we doing?

Are we also "laboring exceedingly to support iniquity"?

Mosiah 2:14

14 And even I, myself, have labored with mine own hands that I might serve you, and that ye should not be laden with taxes, and that there should nothing come upon you which was grievous to be borne—and of all these things which I have spoken, ye yourselves are witnesses this day.

Three of the four scripture blocks I listed use the same 4 word phrase. What is it?...and what does it tell us?


Now you have read every scripture (that I know of) on the topic of taxes in the Book of Mormon. So...if you were to describe in one statement...the BOM message for our day on the subject of taxes....what would that statement be?

I would recommend that you to watch this video called "From Freedom to Fascism". It reveals much on the subject of taxation in America.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4312730277175242198&q=freedom+to+fascism&hl=en
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The Book of Mormons Clear Message on Taxes

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Postby Stephen » Thu Jan 11, 2007 1:01 am

One quick statement from our modern prophet from "A Testimony Vibrant and True" Ensign, August 2005

The Book of Mormon narrative is a chronicle of nations long since gone. But in its descriptions of the problems of today's society, it is as current as the morning newspaper and much more definitive, inspired, and inspiring concerning the solutions of those problems.

I know of no other writing which sets forth with such clarity the tragic consequences to societies that follow courses contrary to the commandments of God. Its pages trace the stories of two distinct civilizations that flourished on the Western Hemisphere. Each began as a small nation, its people walking in the fear of the Lord. But with prosperity came growing evils. The people succumbed to the wiles of ambitious and scheming leaders who oppressed them with burdensome taxes, who lulled them with hollow promises, who countenanced and even encouraged loose and lascivious living. These evil schemers led the people into terrible wars that resulted in the death of millions and the final and total extinction of two great civilizations in two different eras.


Of course these words are teeming with information for those that have "ears to hear" and "eyes to see".

Hey...if anyone has the first presidency statement where they say say something to the effect of....pay taxes or fight it in the courts...I would love for you to post it...I can't find it.
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Postby SwissMrs&Pitchfire » Thu Jan 11, 2007 9:49 am

Mosiah 27:4 "That they should let no pride nor haughtiness disturb their peace; that every man should esteem his neighbor as himself, laboring with their own hands for their support."

We had to add this scripture because it encompasses the "what to do about it."

As to the Book of Mormon stand on taxes, I think that it goes beyond taxes to encompass the whole economic spectrum.

If we all labored for our own support, we would have no profit motive for corruption in government or business. (Bill Gates could pay someone to grow his food, but to do so sets his time up as more valuable, just like the king!) You cannot uphold a double-standard. When everyone is esteemed equally all bear the same burden (even King Mosiah), and the good and just bear the greater burden of conscience to carry the weight in mercy for those who cannot.(even King Mosiah)
"The rich can only get them (keys, signs, words, etc...) in the temple, the poor may get them on the mountaintop as did Moses." Joseph Smith HC 4:608
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Postby ChelC » Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:21 am

Funny, I am just finishing Mosiah today, and so have read most of those in the last couple days, and had many of the same thoughts. Also learned that George Washington accepted no pay for his public service - Wow! That's amazing isn't it - for all he went through? I suspect we will become the most highly taxed people in the written history of the world, and still be called free. If simply handing over half of their goods to the Lamanites caused the Nephites to be in bondage, what are we? We go into bondage willingly and so did they right? I don't know what all my taxes amount to, but it's a LOT. When I consider food tax, fuel tax, property tax, sales tax, income tax, social security, etc, etc. it's sad, because imagine if that same amount of money were pooled in our communities and it's use were more transparent and accountable to us, how much better used it would be. Or imagine if we had a good chunk of it back in our own pockets! How would your family benefit from a 50% raise, (actually it would be a 100% raise right, you take home half now and you would double that) I know even a small portion of it would help our family right now - and it's our money! We earned it! I think we should pay all of the taxes at the end of the year, and everyone should have to write out a check, or at least be given a statement from the government about exactly how much we have paid in taxes - that would change things I bet.

Government is supposed to protect our basic rights, correct? Well how are they doing? Local government does fairly well, though I think it's more wasteful than need be, but our police force does well, and I feel pretty safe. What about the feds? Well, I know most if not all departments in the federal gov. waste a ton of money, many of them are overpaid compared to the rest of the community for the job they're doing. Every one of them buys chairs which cost as much as my dining room table, and every one of them spends like crazy at the end of the year to avoid losing that money in next years budget. Am I protected by the feds in life liberty or property? Well, the feds are taking public land and "protecting" it. They're getting us into endless wars that further threaten life, have taken many lives, have used resources up at an alarming rate. They have taken away many of my liberties in the name of protecting my life. They're doing a lousy job at their duties and should be fired and reinvented.
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Postby Stephen » Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:29 am

Here is another thought from Gordon B. Hinckley

These Noble Pioneers
Gordon B. Hinckley was the president of The Church
of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints when this fireside address
was given at Brigham Young University on 2 February 1997


"What a dismal station we have reached in this nation where we have borrowed and spent and failed to repay. At the close of 1994, every man, woman, and child in the United States owed as his or her part of the national debt $17,805.64. Think of it. It is a disgrace. It affects all of our monetary policies and all of our commerce. It burdens us with taxes from which there is little or no relief. "
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Postby ChelC » Thu Jan 11, 2007 11:07 am

I brought this up to my family members at a gathering, and was met with, "the debt doesn't mean anything, we owe it to ourselves." Wrong! "And anyhow, it will just be forgiven." Wrong again, because the first is wrong, and I don't think other nations are as forgiving as we have been in the past. I should send them that quote.
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Postby Stephen » Thu Jan 11, 2007 8:17 pm

Here is an exerpt from the "Church Handbook of Instructions: Book 1" that I think is good to have on this topic...

"Income Taxes

Church members are obligated by the twelfth article of faith to obey the laws of the nation where they reside (see also D&C 134:5). Members who disapprove of tax laws may try to have them changed by legislation or constitutional amendment. Members wo have well-founded legal objections mahy challenge tax laws in courts.

Church members who refuse to file a tax return, pay required income taxes, or comply with a final judgement in a tax case are in direct conflict with the law and with the teachings of the Church. Such members may be ineligible for a temple recommend and should not be called to positions of principal responsiblility in the Church. Members who are convicted of willfully violating tax laws are subject to Church discipline to the extent warranted by the circumstances."
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Postby lundbaek » Thu Jan 11, 2007 9:59 pm

As a branch president in Denmark a few years ago I did not give temple recommends or responsible callings to members who were accepting government welfare and not reporting their income from regular moonlighting, which would have been deducted from their welfare payments. However, the stake would not consider disciplinary action. One member was reported for this offense, but the responsible local government office did not pursue the matter.
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Postby SwissMrs&Pitchfire » Fri Jan 12, 2007 10:10 am

Threepercentite: I like that line of thinking. The scriptures following that verse elaborate to say, pay for the lands in Zion even though they belong to the Lord, so that we don't stir up the anger of the world by stealing them (in their eyes).

That's why we pay taxes, that's why they continued to pay and be enslaved in the Book of Mormon bondage. Because it works better than fighting all the world.

I always looked at that scripture in the bible in the context that the coins really did not belong to Ceasar, the image did. If I would have been in the audience, I like to think I would have hammered the "engraven image" off and not paid any tax but rather cast it to the poor.
"The rich can only get them (keys, signs, words, etc...) in the temple, the poor may get them on the mountaintop as did Moses." Joseph Smith HC 4:608
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Postby Mark » Sun Jan 21, 2007 7:21 pm

This talk by Elder Oaks is very educational regarding our responsibilities of citizenship in the nations we reside.


America’s Freedom Festival at Provo

Marriott Center

July 3, 1994

“Some Responsibilities of Citizenship”

Elder Dallin H. Oaks




My dear brothers and sisters, I welcome this opportunity to speak to a sabbath audience at America's Freedom Festival at Provo. This evening I wish to speak about some responsibilities of citizenship. My message consists of personal opinions and is not an expression of an official position.


Introduction

About two months ago my wife, June, and I traveled from Brazil to Chile. En route we stopped at Iguaçu, Brazil, to see the world's largest waterfall.

We approached the falls first from the downstream side. We were awed by the thunderous avalanche of water spilling over the rocky precipice and cascading over 200 feet into the cataract below.

Later we walked through the state park several hundred feet above the falls. Here the wide Iguaçu River flows serenely between low forested banks, with only an occasional ripple of white to mark a few boulders in its path. Here the river appears placid and inviting. As we looked down stream toward what we knew to be the location of the mighty falls, we could see nothing to warn of their presence. From this point a boatman with no knowledge of the falls would have only a strange, distant roar to warn him of imminent disaster.

As I viewed this scene I thought of the circumstances of our nation. Prophetic voices have sounded warnings of a downfall ahead, of hazards that could deprive us of our freedom. Yet, as we look about us at this point, the flow of events seems serene, with only an occasional ripple. To see the danger we must rise above the immediate scene and tune our senses to identify changed conditions that threaten the future of our nation.


Responsibilities

A few months ago I received a letter from an old friend whose name and work should be familiar to all of us. Dr. Kenneth D. Wells is the founder of the famous Freedom Foundation at Valley Forge. Though now 85 years of age, this respected patriot, a convert to Mormonism, continues to do all that he can for the future of our nation. His letter, sent to many of his friends, cites the obvious malignancies that afflict our nation and concludes with these words:

In my heart and mind and soul, I know only as our consciences turn us to "Responsible Personal Conduct" will the dream that is America have any chance of survival. (Kenneth D. Wells, letter of March 30, 1994.)

Some of the responsible personal conduct that is necessary to save America is the kind of conduct that is enforceable by law and legal process, but much of it can only be encouraged. In the end, many of our most important personal, family, civic, and church responsibilities are entirely voluntary. As Elder Neal A. Maxwell said in his address at this Freedom Festival last year, "Our whole society really rests on the capacity of its citizens to give 'obedience to the unenforceable.'"

At a time when most of our public discourse concerns rights, it may seem strange to speak of responsibilities. But a democratic republic needs patriotic citizens who are fulfilling their responsibilities as well as claiming their rights. No society is so secure that it can withstand continued demands for increases in citizen rights without producing corresponding increases in the fulfillment of citizen responsibilities. Responsibilities like honesty, respect for personal and property rights, self-reliance, and willingness to sacrifice for the common good are basic to the governance and preservation of our nation.

This evening I will speak of three fundamental responsibilities of citizenship in a democratic nation. In my lifetime each of these has been significantly compromised in theory and practice, and our nation has been significantly weakened in the process. One of these responsibilities has been undercut by the political Left. One has been undercut by the political Right. The third is being undercut by both the Left and the Right. These three fundamentals are the citizen responsibilities of (1) serving in the military, (2) paying taxes, and (3) participating in democratic government.


A Special Introduction for Church Members

Before I address these three responsibilities, I will provide a short introduction that I believe is needed by some members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The twelfth Article of Faith commits Latter-day Saints to "being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates," and to "obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law." This belief is not unique in Christendom. The apostle Paul told the early Christians to be "subject to principalities and powers, [and] to obey magistrates" (Titus 3:1; also see Rom. 13:1). The apostle Peter taught "submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake" (1 Peter 2:13).

This principle is embodied in the LDS Declaration of Belief in the Doctrine and Covenants, which reads:

We believe that all men are bound to sustain and uphold the respective governments in which they reside, while protected in their inherent and inalienable rights by the laws of such governments. (D&C 134:5.)

Some Church members have questioned the meaning of the last clause. Some who have written me have claimed to be excused from their scriptural obligation to "sustain and uphold" their' government because the government has not protected them in their inalienable rights. One letter included this statement:

What about the resistance movement during the conquering of Hitler's National Socialist war machine? I personally know of an LDS family who during World War II defied the Nazis by secretly saving lives of people (many of them were Jews) by hiding and transporting them by boat from Denmark to Sweden. Yet today they are still faithful members of the Church. Are they under condemnation for not obeying and sustaining the totalitarian government they were under?

I feel sorry for persons whose knowledge of the relative actions of Nazi Germany and modern United States of America is so incomplete that they put these two governments in the same category in depriving their citizens of inalienable rights. We should all be able to recognize the difference between abuses that are individualized, and we surely have some of these in the United States today, and those that are deliberate government policy, as in Nazi Germany. A person who cannot tell the difference between a rat and a rhinoceros will be a poor source of advice on the control of animals.

At a clear and extreme level, violations of inalienable rights by a government might excuse citizens from the performance of some obligations of citizenship. But the history of Latter-day Saints' relations to their governments shows that any such exceptions would have to be far more extreme than anything we have experienced in this country.

Even when victimized by what they must surely have seen as very severe government oppressions and abridgments of freedom, the Mormon people and their leaders have remained loyal to their government and its laws. Think of the persecutions in Missouri, the expulsion from Nauvoo, and the repressions suffered in the Utah Territory. As long as a government provides aggrieved persons an opportunity to work to enlarge their freedoms and relieve their oppressions by legal and peaceful means, a Latter-day Saint citizen's duty is to forego revolution and disobedience of law. Our doctrine commits us to work from within. Even an oppressive government is preferable to a state of lawlessness and anarchy in which the only ruling principle is force and every individual has a thousand oppressors. (See D&C 134:6.)

Church members who seek to use LDS doctrine as a basis for concluding that government infringements on inalienable rights have excused them from obeying the law seem to have forgotten the principle of following the prophets. Until the prophets invoke this principle, faithful members will also refrain from doing so. We remain committed to uphold our governments and to obey their laws.


Military Service and Taxes

I come now to the first two fundamental citizen responsibilities that have been compromised in my lifetime in the United States: serving in the military and paying taxes.

Modern opponents of compulsory military service and of enforced payment of taxes have this common objection. Both claim that the government compulsion to do these unpopular things interferes with freedom. The issue, they say, is freedom versus slavery.

The problem with this argument is that it proves too much. It would take us back to the toothless Articles of Confederation from which our inspired Constitution rescued us. A government that cannot compel military service or a government that cannot compel the payment of taxes is not much of a government.

At root, these objections to government compulsion are objections to the whole idea of government. Such objections are contrary to Christian doctrine. Jesus did not preach sedition. He taught his followers to "Render... unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's" (Matt. 22:21). His apostles taught the same, as I have already noted.

Of course, there are legitimate technical objections to laws requiring military service and to certain tax laws, but these are objections to the terms of the law, not to the idea of compulsion. Technical objections should be presented in the forums provided by law.

During the Vietnam War, when I was a professor of law at The University of Chicago Law School, I knew some young men from the political Left who had a second type of objection to military service. They said they did not object to compulsory service in the military, but they did object to serving in the war in Vietnam because they opposed that war. The law, which must give equal protection to all citizens, did not recognize that kind of objection. Citizens cannot pick and choose which wars to support or which laws to observe. But there were many young men who asserted this objection, and there were times during the Vietnam War when the extent of draft evasion on this basis posed a serious problem for our nation.

Today there is a comparable objection to the payment of taxes, but this objection comes primarily from the political Right. People who object to some of the ways the government spends its tax revenues contend that they should not be forced to pay taxes to support activities they condemn. This picking and choosing which laws to support is the same legal approach the young men of the political Left used to try to avoid military service during the war in Vietnam.

One does not have to approve of all of the uses of military power nor all of the uses of tax revenues to see that taxpayers and young men of military age cannot resist compulsion on the basis of disagreements with some of the policies of the government that seeks to compel them. A government could not survive if the enforceable responsibilities of its citizens were divisible according to their individual preferences. We cannot be expected to welcome military service or to relish the payment of taxes, but we should recognize these as essential responsibilities of citizenship, even where we disagree with some of the actions of the government we support.

I know of no better commentary on taxes and big government than the consoling observation attributed to Will Rogers: "We're just lucky we're not gettin' all the government we're payin' for." I also enjoy most of the good-humored jokes about the Internal Revenue Service, which definitely does not qualify as everyone's favorite bureau. Someone said that the IRS has solved the problem of what to give to the man who already has everything: give him an audit!

So much for politics. I come now to objections based on some type of legal theory.

The first legal objection is that the basic law is unconstitutional. I do not remember such arguments being made against the draft law during the Vietnam War. However, for reasons I cannot explain, some persons are now arguing that the federal income tax is unconstitutional.

Church members involved in various forms of tax protest have sent me many legal memoranda that purport to justify their positions. For the first several years of my service as a General Authority, I did a good deal of personal research to evaluate these legal theories in view of the principles I had learned during a quarter of a century in the legal profession, including several years teaching tax law in a major law school. In not one single instance have I found any merit in the legal theories asserted as a basis for these tax protests. Yet, some good people are still being misled by them, and their mistaken reliance on false theories is wrecking havoc with their financial prospects and even their spiritual lives.

A claim often made by protesting taxpayers is that the IRS is afraid to challenge them. Some who have written me have claimed that the merit of their position is evident in the fact that they have not filed a tax return for many years and nothing has happened to them. I received one such a letter from a prominent tax protestor in Utah, and then, a few months later, read a press account of his beginning service of a long prison sentence in a federal penitentiary. The wheels of justice grind slowly, but exceedingly fine.

For many in this audience, the ultimate mortal authority on religious doctrine is the First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Just last year, the Council of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve gave this instruction:

Church members in any nation are obligated by the twelfth article of faith to obey the tax laws of that nation (see also D&C 134:5) .... A member who refuses to file a tax return, to pay required income taxes, or to comply with a final judgment in a tax case is in direct conflict with the law and with the teachings of the Church. (Bulletin, 1993-2, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints; also see General Handbook of Instructions, p. 11-2.)

There is nothing inappropriate in taking political action to reduce taxes or in pursuing well-founded court challenges to a particular application of the tax laws. In their 1993 statement, the Church leaders declared:

If a member disapproves of tax laws, he may attempt to have them changed by legislation or constitutional amendment, or, if he has a well-founded legal objection, he may challenge them in the courts. (Ibid.)

However, contrary to the position of some tax protestors, this statement provides no justification for a general and persistent failure to pay taxes or to refrain from filing tax returns. The courts that our Constitution and laws have established to rule on such matters have uniformly upheld the constitutionality of the federal income tax law and have regularly rejected assertions that wages and salaries are not taxable, that federal reserve notes do not count as income, and that individuals or businesses can elect not to comply with the income tax laws. As a result, failures to obey the income tax law that are based on these and similar theories must be regarded as actions without "a well-founded legal objection" and therefore unacceptable to persons committed to uphold and sustain the law.


Theories to Free Citizens from the Authority of Governments

Other variations on the avoidance of citizen responsibilities are the recent theories that purport to allow persons to free themselves from the authority of federal, state, or local governments.

The first of these theories was espoused by the so-called Township Movement. Under this theory, a person could execute some kind of document that would excuse him or her from any compulsory government authority other than the so-called township government this person had participated in electing. This theory purported to be based on common-law precedents going back to the earliest of times. Its defect is its ignoring or denying of the authority of the federal and state constitutions and laws adopted in this nation. The proponents of the Township Movement view history through a peephole that shows nothing but the subjects they desire. Their legal claims have no merit whatever.

The second theory that purports to allow a person to free himself or herself from paying taxes or being subject to other federal or state laws is the so-called state citizenship movement, which makes prominent reference to sovereign citizenship or common-law citizenship. This theory starts with a valid principle, the sovereignty of the people, but it misapplies that principle and reaches an erroneous conclusion.

One of the most important of the great fundamentals of our inspired Constitution is the principle that the sovereign power is in the people, not in a state or nation just because it has the power that comes from force of arms. Along with many other religious people, Latter-day Saints affirm that God gave the power to the people, and the people consented to a Constitution that delegated certain powers to the federal and state governments and reserved the rest to the people.

However, it does not follow from this principle that each citizen is free to determine which laws he will obey or that one or more citizens are free to redefine the concept of sovereignty. That would result in anarchy, a system in which the only source of power is the sword. In that system, no person is free. The United States Constitution and the constitutions of the several states have defined the powers citizens have granted to their governments, the procedures for amending those grants, and the means by which controversies over the exercise of those powers can be resolved.

Now to the theory of state or sovereign or common-law citizenship. A knowledgeable proponent of this theory, whose recent, long letter to me purported to be representative of large numbers of adherents in California and across the nation, some of whom are members of my church, gave this description of the theory (letter of Mar. 15, 1994): The 1783 Treaty of Paris (which concluded the Revolutionary War) granted sovereignty to the people of the thirteen colonies. The sovereign people of these colonies (later states) had no national citizenship. There was no national citizenship in the United States until 1868. The citizenship granted by the Fourteenth Amendment in 1868 gives national citizens only "subject status," not sovereignty. As a result, there are different classes of citizenship in the United States today, depending upon whether one's citizenship is based on the inferior status conferred by the Fourteenth Amendment or on the inherent sovereign citizenship that devolved upon residents of the various states as a result of the 1783 Treaty of Paris.

There are four major problems with this theory. First, the Treaty of Paris did not grant sovereignty to the citizens of the thirteen colonies. It is a treaty between countries," Great Britain and the United States of America. The treaty acknowledges the independence of the thirteen "states," as it calls them, but it refers to them collectively "the United States of America." Moreover, the treaty was ratified by the Continental Congress, not by the legislatures of the thirteen states.

Second, the theory of state citizenship ignores the effect of the United States Constitution, which was ratified five years after the Treaty of Paris. That constitution established an entirely new relationship between the states and the national government. and the citizens of the states and the nation ratified that relationship by the procedures they had specified.

Third, the argument that there was only state citizenship prior to the Fourteenth Amendment ignores over 75 years of congressional and judicial action defining the separate incidents of federal and state citizenship. (See James H. Kettner, The Development of American Citizenship 1608-1870 [Univ. No. Carolina Press, 1978].)

Finally, the asserted theory also ignores the effect of the Fourteenth Amendment of the United States Constitution, which defines national citizenship for all citizens of this nation and its constituent states.

Persons who believe in the so-called "state citizenship movement" are encouraged to sign and publicly file three "legal documents," including a "Declaration of Citizenship and Status as a Common-law Citizen." These documents are supposed to revoke the signers' national citizenship and free them from tax and other legal obligations to the United States. Considering the care with which these meaningless documents are drafted and executed, I am reminded of a wise aphorism: "A task not worth doing at all is not worth doing well."

One recent letter to Church headquarters even suggested that such persons have no legal need to get a marriage license, and therefore should be able to have a temple marriage without one. Persons who claim the right to pick and choose which laws of the land they will observe are not far from claiming to choose which laws of God they must observe.

I feel sad that persons can be so misled. The wise will beware of teachings on the Constitution that are based on peephole history and selective readings of historic documents. They should also beware of the related advice of persons who advocate private armies or the collection of heavy weapons or extraordinary quantities of private arms. Responsible citizenship has no shortcuts when the going gets tough--not draft avoidance, not tax evasion and not eccentric theories that purport to free us from the obligation to be subject to t constitutions and laws of our states and our nation.


Participating in Democratic Government

The solution to many of the major problems in our nation is for more citizens to participate more actively and more effectively in democratic government, by their votes and by their letters and other communications to elected representatives. This fundamental responsibility of citizenship is a prerequisite for the perpetuation of freedom.

I will cite three major national problems that I believe would yield, long-term. increased citizen participation.

1. The budget deficit. We know that our national government cannot continue indefinitely to spend more than it receives. If the citizen-voters of this nation continue to demand the current level of government expenditures that produces our deficits, then our citizen-taxpayers must accept the tax increases necessary to fund them. If we won't raise taxes, we should accept cuts in various expenditures. We cannot continue much longer to fund our current levels of government expenditures by increased borrowings.

This problem cannot be solved by the popular but superficial action of merely opposing all tax increases. It cannot be solved by the phony solution of proposing spending cuts on every government program except our various personal favorites. This familiar approach shatters working coalitions and imposes gridlock on progress toward reducing deficits. Citizen-taxpayers have endured the resulting government paralysis on deficit reduction for years, until we are about to drift over the fiscal falls from the effects of the national debt.

Citizen-voters should demand that our elected President and lawmakers act decisively and courageously to reduce the steeply increasing debt we are leaving to our children and grandchildren and the progressively paralyzing proportion of current income our government must pay as interest on that debt.

2. The allocation of power between federal and state governments. For more than a half century, our national government has been acquiring additional powers by assuming functions previously left to state and local governments. This trend has now gone so far that the national government is beginning to direct what state and local governments must do and even how they must spend their limited revenues. This trend must be stopped and reversed, or we will cease to be the federal republic established in our inspired Constitution.

I am glad that some of our state governors are challenging this trend. I welcome their leadership in objecting to congressional action that commandeers the legislative and regulatory processes of the states to carry out federal directives not financed by the federal government. I hope many citizens will respond to such leadership and work to assure that state governments and their subsidiary local governments will continue to have a strong and effective role in our nation.

It is imperative that state governments have the power and the fiscal resources to respond to local needs and to capitalize on local strengths. That is the essence of federalism. But if federalism is to work, state governments must be willing to move against local and regional problems, such as clean air and water, and not wait for every such initiative to come from the national government. The current imbalance between the national and the state governments is just as much a product of state inaction as it is of national overreaching.

The balance I advocate between national and state powers is mandated by the Tenth Amendment, which provides:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

The Tenth Amendment's reference to powers delegated to the United States by the Constitution leads me to a third subject of concern.

3. We need to reestablish the constitutional principle that our federal government is a government of limited powers.

A government of limited powers was the central premise of constitutional law during the first century and a half of our nation's history. Constitutional discussions of that period generally focused not on questions of individual rights but on whether the Constitution granted power to authorize the government activity that was challenged.

In the aftermath of the great depression and World War II, this traditional assumption of limited federal government powers was gradually displaced by the idea that the national government presumably possesses law-making powers except to the extent prohibited by some person's defined constitutional right. As a result of this change, current legal and political debate over excessive or undesirable government regulation tends to focus on whether some individual constitutional rights have been invaded.

In effect .... [this] shifts the burden of proof concerning the appropriateness of an exercise of government power from the state to the rightholder. New assertions of government power are no longer suspect. Where no constitutional right is clearly available as a shield, new assertions of government authority meet passive acquiescence.

... [We] need to revitalize the old wisdom that the protection of individual freedom often requires limiting government powers in ways that go beyond merely vindicating individual rights. We must cage the lion as well as arm the spectators. (W. Cole Durham, Jr., and Dallin H. Oaks, "Constitutional Protections for Independent Higher Education: Limited Powers and Institutional Rights," in Church and College: a Vital Partnership. Vol. 3. Accountability, pp. 71-72 [National Congress on Church-related Colleges and Universities, Austin College, Sherman, Texas, 198 .)

Because it requires changing deeply held assumptions and fundamental constitutional interpretations, this third major problem will be the most difficult to resolve. But it is also the most important. In the pantheon of ideas in our divinely-inspired constitution, the idea that the government is limited to the powers expressly and impliedly conferred by the Constitution is second only to the principle that the people are sovereign.

I have advocated greater citizen participation to resolve three major problems: (1) our massive and increasing national deficits, (2) the need for states to reacquire powers and initiatives taken away by the federal government, and (3) the need to reestablish the principle that the federal government is a government of limited powers.


A Caution on Citizen Participation in Single-Interest Groups

Even as I call for greater citizen participation to resolve national problems, I must voice one caution about citizen participation. I believe that citizen participation in single-interest groups is actually weakening representative government.

Interest groups are inevitable and desirable in a democratic government. For example, political parties are interest groups, comprised of persons with many different specific interests. Political parties blunt the extreme effects of their constituent special-interest groups as those parties compel the internal compromises necessary to mold their constituencies into a working coalition. In contrast, single-interest groups confront government directly with uncompromised demands on a narrow spectrum of issues. These groups are so specialized that they lack the perspective to move against the large problems, and they also lack the incentive to make the pragmatic compromises that are the enabling force of democratic government in a pluralistic society.

Some of the most powerful influences in the government of our nation in this last decade of the twentieth century are the multitude of single-interest groups. Whether the subject is gun control, medical care, criminal punishment, welfare reform, government aid to this or that, or whatever, these single-interest groups are a formidable force in lobbying, in fund-raising, and in citizen involvement. None of these groups is powerful enough to steer the ship of state by itself, but many have sufficient power to prevent the vessel from being steered toward the solution of more general problems. In other words, single-interest groups are not able to lead toward the solution of general problems, but they are commonly able to block such solutions. And what they block can be the solution of the large general problems that affect the entire body politic, such as deficit-spending or others I have mentioned.

Contrast the example of the founding fathers. The United States Constitution could never have been drafted or ratified if each of the delegates to the convention had focused on his own special interest and had demanded full satisfaction as the price of his support. The history of our Constitution is replete with examples of far-sighted statesmen who were willing to support a document that failed to implement many of their personal preferences. For example, influential Thomas Jefferson, who did not serve as a delegate because he was in Paris negotiating a treaty, felt strongly that a bill of rights should have been included in the original Constitution. But Jefferson still supported the Constitution because he felt it was the best available at the time. Benjamin Franklin described that same approach when he said: "The opinions I have had of its errors, I sacrifice to the public good." (Notes of the Debates in the Federal Convention of 1787. Reported by James Madison, p. 653.)

In other words, we must not go into blocking tactics when a representative body fails to satisfy us fully on our favorite special interest. We should not expect all our personal preferences in government action that must represent a consensus. Americans are well advised to support the best that can be obtained in the circumstances that prevail. The conduct of the most important business of our nation must not be held hostage to the fulfillment of every preference of every powerful special interest group. In a democracy and a society committed to pluralism, we must be willing to compromise on public policies from year to year, and then apply ourselves diligently to the tiresome tasks of education and persuasion and lobbying in order to obtain our way to an increasing extent as we win agreement from our fellow citizens.

One aspect of our current single-interest politics that is a special worry to me is the fear that many Americans will have their only political activity through a particular single-interest group. If most who are politically active see the political process and the future of our country only through the keyhole of one particular special interest, where will we get the vision and perspective necessary to guide the ship of state on the largest and most important issues that confront us? Responsible citizenship requires that we see our venture in self-government in broader terms than merely through the lens of one special interest, however important and however strongly felt.

I do not suggest that anyone refrain from pressing whatever special interest is important to him or her. But I am bold enough to suggest that no person should limit his or her political activity to a single subject. For example, a person who strongly supports one special interest should also make a conscious effort to help resolve larger government problems on which that person can unite with some of the same persons who are the opposition in the area of special interest. There are plenty of areas for general citizen participation on subjects not usually classified as single interests. In addition to deficit reduction and the other topics mentioned earlier, I would include education policy, transportation policy, environmental concerns, and the necessarily broad-based activities of political parties at the local, state, and national levels.

General citizen cooperative action that transcends special interests can also be achieved through the multitude of private volunteer organizations that are unique and so important to our nation. A partial list of these will include activities familiar to everyone in this audience.

The celebration of citizenship, patriotism, and national holidays and values, such as hundreds of volunteers do so well in this Freedom Festival.

Volunteer work in hospitals, museums, public radio and television, and various arts organizations such as symphony, ballet, and theater.

Assisting the great system of private education that is unique to the United States of America, at the elementary, secondary, and college/university level.

Helping to clean up the air, water, and soil that support us, including such simple yet meaningful tasks as recycling materials and picking up trash along the highways.

Working with activity and athletic programs for young people, such as Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, Little League, and Special Olympics.

Supporting and helping in the charitable projects of numerous community, social, and fraternal organizations.


Responsibilities and Heroes

I have spoken about citizenship responsibilities. I close with some observations about the relationship of responsibilities to the matter of heroes. (I use the word heroes to include both male and female.)

My friend, President George Roche of Hillsdale College, gives many important insights in his book, A World without Heroes (Hillsdale, Michigan: Hillsdale College Press, 1986). Seeking to answer the important question of why our current generation seems to have no heroes, Dr. Roche observes that a hero gains that stature by courageously overcoming significant obstacles to make an extraordinary achievement that is generally recognized as a good thing. He observes that "The hero seeks not happiness but goodness" (Ibid. p.4).

The kinds of persons who are idolized in our current society, including sports figures and movie or rock stars, are substitutes for heroes, but they are not heroes. The current idols stand for a self-serving pursuit of happiness, not an unselfish sacrifice for goodness. A materialistic or self-serving world cannot produce heroes because such a world has no generally accepted measure to tell us what we should do in the service of others. The genuine hero achieves that status by accomplishments measured against a consensus of what is good and praiseworthy. We cannot have heroes without clear common ideas of what is good or right.

My nominees for heroes are the good mothers and fathers who sacrifice to bear and nurture the leaders of future generations. I wish we had a national consensus on the appropriateness of that characterization, but we live in a time when our national leaders cannot even state a consensus on the definition of family.

As I read Dr. Roche's stimulating ideas on heroes, I found myself translating his ideas into the common terms of the law with which I am most familiar. I thought of rights and responsibilities.

As noted earlier, the last half-century of legal and public discourse has concentrated strongly on the language of rights. I suggest that there are few heroes in a world that focuses on rights. Is a person a hero for getting his or her rights? There is justice in that accomplishment, but its only service is self-service. On exceptional occasions some persons can rise to hero status by securing the rights of others, such as the civil rights volunteers of the sixties who put their lives in jeopardy in securing the voting rights of black citizens in the South. But most commonly the gladiators who fight for the rights of others are well paid by legal fees or by public office or prominence. No, the pursuit of rights is rarely the stuff of which heroes are made. And so, in a time of preoccupation with rights it should not surprise us that we live in a world with few heroes.

Heroes win that status by distinction in the fulfillment of responsibilities. If we could resurrect the prominence of responsibilities in our society, we would resurrect the framework of belief and the measures of distinction by which heroes can be recognized and honored.

The citizen responsibilities I have discussed provide such an opportunity. I therefore join my voice to the plea of Dr. George Roche:

If this tired old planet is to be healed, it will be the old-fashioned way, one by one, with each of us finding the best within us. We all have to be heroes! (Ibid., p. xviii.)

May God bless us in our efforts to fulfill our responsibilities and to rise to the best that is in us.
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Postby Stephen » Mon Jan 22, 2007 12:59 am

Intriguing talk! Thank you for posting it Mark.

There is some in this talk that is right on target....and other parts that go against my grain. If this were an official statement...I would most certainly have to swallow a bitter pill to be in line with the brethren.

As Elder Oaks said...

"My message consists of personal opinions and is not an expression of an official position."

Still....an opinion of an apostle should not be taken lightly...even if it is opinion.

I wholeheartedly endorse this statement...

"As long as a government provides aggrieved persons an opportunity to work to enlarge their freedoms and relieve their oppressions by legal and peaceful means, a Latter-day Saint citizen's duty is to forego revolution and disobedience of law."

I need to get my wife to cross stich that and frame it for over my door!

Documented in AFTF are many cases where the legal system has failed and where the IRS has used force to financially destroy people...and even physically coerce.

I wonder if Elder Oaks is familiar with the many court cases discussed throughout "America, From Freedom to Fascism"? I would be very interested to hear his response to the breadth of evidence that is contained throughout that documentary.

It was good to see him list what is written in the handbook of instructions as I posted previously.

I wonder too how to reconcile the official statement of the first presidency regarding compulsory military service with that of Elder Oaks view back in 1994. I personally will take the official statement of the first presidency on the subject over an apostles personal opinion.

Here is info on it cut and pasted...

On July 18, 1945, Honorable Joseph W. Martin, Jr., of Massachusetts, introduced into the U.S. House of Representatives what later came to be widely known as the Martin Resolution. This Resolution urged President Harry S. Truman, Secretary of State James F. Byrnes and the personal representative of the President to the United Nations organization, Edward R. Stettinius, Jr., "to begin immediately efforts to secure an agreement by the nations of the world to abandon peacetime conscription of youth for military service." Two paragraphs of the Martin Resolution are particularly significant in light of the later letter of the First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to the congressional delegation from the state of Utah. Paragraph four of the Martin Resolution stated:

"Whereas compulsory military service would result in greater restrictions over the lives and activities of our people, would impose heavy burdens on them, causing greater taxes and profound changes in their way of lifeÂ…. "

Paragraph six stated in part ". . . compulsory military service has never prevented war in Europe or elsewhere.

STATEMENT BY THE FIRST PRESIDENCY REGARDING UNIVERSAL COMPULSORY MILITARY TRAINING

We print below a letter dated December 14, 1945, addressed by the First Presidency of the Church to each member of the Utah Congressional Delegation-Senators Thomas and Murdock and Congressmen Granger and Robinson. Word has now been received by the First Presidency from both Senators and both Congressmen expressing their approval of and belief in the sentiments, reasons, and conclusions set forth in the letter. The letter follows:

"Press reports have for some months indicated that a determined effort is in the making to establish in this country a compulsory universal military training designed to draw into military training and service the entire youth of the nation. We had hoped that mature reflection might lead the proponents of such a policy to abandon it. We have felt and still feel that such a policy would carry with it the gravest dangers to our Republic.

"It now appears that the proponents of the policy have persuaded the Administration to adopt it, in what on its face is a modified form. We deeply regret this, because we dislike to find ourselves under the necessity of opposing any policy so sponsored. However, we are so persuaded of the rightfulness of our position, and we regard the policy so threatening to the true purposes for which this Government was set up, as set forth in the great Preamble to the Constitution, that we are constrained respectfully to invite your attention to the following considerations:

"1. By taking our sons at the most impressionable age of their adolescence and putting them into army camps under rigorous military discipline, we shall seriously endanger their initiative thereby impairing one of the essential elements of American citizenship. While on its face the suggested plan might not seem to visualize the army camp training, yet there seems little doubt that our military leaders contemplate such a period, with similar recurring periods after the boys are placed in the reserves.

"2. By taking our boys from their homes, we shall deprive them of parental guidance and control at this important period of their youth, and there is no substitute for the care and love of a mother for a young son.

"3. We shall take them out of school and suffer their minds to be directed in other channels, so that very many of them after leaving the army, will never return to finish their schooling, thus over a few years materially reducing the literacy of the whole nation.

"4. We shall give opportunity to teach our sons not only the way to kill but also, in too many cases, the desire to kill, thereby increasing lawlessness and disorder to the consequent upsetting of the stability of our national society. God said at Sinai, "Thou shalt not kill."

"5. We shall take them from the refining, ennobling, character-building atmosphere of the home, and place them under a drastic discipline in an environment that is hostile to most of the finer and nobler things of home and of life.

"6. We shall make our sons the victims of systematized allurements to gamble, to drink, to smoke, to swear, to associate with lewd women, to be selfish, idle, irresponsible save under restraint of force, to be common, coarse, and vulgar, all contrary to and destructive of the American home.

"7. We shall deprive our sons of any adequate religious training and activity during their training years, for the religious element of army life is both inadequate and ineffective.

"8. We shall put them where they may be indoctrinated with a wholly un-American view of the aims and purposes of their individual lives, and of the life of the whole people and nation, which are founded on the ways of peace, whereas they will be taught to believe in the ways of war.

"9. We shall take them away from all participation in the means and measures of production to the economic loss of the whole nation.

"10. We shall lay them open to wholly erroneous ideas of their duties to themselves, to their family, and to society in the matter of independence, self-sufficiency, individual initiative, and what we have come to call American manhood.

"11. We shall subject them to encouragement in a belief that they can always live off the labors of others through the government or otherwise.

"12. We shall make possible their building into a military caste which from all human experience bodes ill for that equality and unity which must always characterize the citizenry of a republic.

"13. By creating an immense standing army, we shall create to our liberties and free institutions a threat foreseen and condemned by the founders of the Republic, and by the people of this country from that time till now. Great standing armies have always been the tools of ambitious dictators to the destruction of freedom.

"14. By the creation of a great war machine, we shall invite and tempt the waging of war against foreign countries, upon little or no provocation; for the possession of great military power always breeds thirst for domination, for empire, and for a rule by might not right.

"15. By building a huge armed establishment, we shall belie our protestations of peace and peaceful intent and force other nations to a like course of militarism, so placing upon the peoples of the earth crushing burdens of taxation that with their present tax load will hardly be bearable, and that will gravely threaten our social, economic, and governmental systems.

"16. We shall make of the whole earth one great military camp whose separate armies, headed by war-minded officers, will never rest till they are at one another's throats in what will be the most terrible contest the world has ever seen.

"17. All the advantages for the protection of the country offered by a standing army may be obtained by the National Guard system which has proved so effective in the past and which is unattended by the evils of entire mobilization.

"Responsive to the ancient wisdom, 'Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it,' obedient to the divine message that heralded the birth of Jesus the Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of the world, '. . . on earth peace, good will toward men,' and knowing that our Constitution and the Government set up under it were inspired of God and should be preserved to the blessing not only of our own citizenry but, as an example, to the blessing of all the world, we have the honor respectfully to urge that you do your utmost to defeat any plan designed to bring about the compulsory military service of our citizenry. Should it be urged that our complete armament is necessary for our safety, it may be confidently replied that a proper foreign policy, implemented by an effective diplomacy, can avert the dangers that are feared. What this country needs and what the world needs, is a will for peace, not war. God will help our efforts to bring this about.

"Respectfully submitted, GEO. ALBERT SMITH, J. REUBEN CLARK, JR., DAVID O. MCKAY, First Presidency."

Agitation continued regarding universal compulsory military training into the year 1946. Rather than have Stake Presidents issue subsequent statements representing the views of their stake organizations in the matter, the First Presidency suggested in a letter to all Stake Presidents dated June 28, 1946, that the letter of the First Presidency of December 14, 1945, be reissued, where necessary and advisable, and sent to congressmen or senators "as indicating the views of the voters of the ward or stake involved."
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Postby jbalm » Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:17 am

I really don't think that Bro. Oaks' talk contradicts official policies of the Church.

Looking at the talk as a whole, the message is that we must obey the laws, even if we don't support them.

The first presidency opposed the draft, but as long as it was law, members were expected to abide by it.

A couple of questions were raised by Bro. Oaks talk, however:

I feel sorry for persons whose knowledge of the relative actions of Nazi Germany and modern United States of America is so incomplete that they put these two governments in the same category in depriving their citizens of inalienable rights. We should all be able to recognize the difference between abuses that are individualized, and we surely have some of these in the United States today, and those that are deliberate government policy, as in Nazi Germany. A person who cannot tell the difference between a rat and a rhinoceros will be a poor source of advice on the control of animals.


I agree that the example of the Nazis may have been too extreme to be useful. But I have often wondered about the relationship between the Founding Fathers and the obligation to "render unto Caesar." By many standards, our government is more oppressive today than the English monarchy was to the American colonists when the Revolution began. Too bad Bro. Oaks didn't discuss that. I would like to hear his insights.

At a clear and extreme level, violations of inalienable rights by a government might excuse citizens from the performance of some obligations of citizenship. But the history of Latter-day Saints' relations to their governments shows that any such exceptions would have to be far more extreme than anything we have experienced in this country.


I'm pretty sure that at one point, Brigham Young sent armed men to halt the advance of a detachment of U.S. Army soldiers sent to subdue the saints in Utah. Also, the early saints under Brigham Young engaged in a significant amount of civil disobedience (stressing "civil") when the federal government placed their own governors in the territory. I would like to hear Bro. Oaks' thoughts on that.

Again, I see nothing in the talk that contradicts official doctrine, and I know the talk was given to address issues that he adjudged were important to address at the time. I am just curious as to how he would reconcile certain statements he made with certain events in U.S. history.
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Postby WhisperFox » Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:04 am

I know this was pointed out before but his talk was also given in 1994. Some things have changed from my perspective.

I have seen great changes in our nation in the last 13 years. I'd like to see his current statements about the suspension of habeas corpus etc. that all changed since 2001 and 9/11.
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Postby ShineOn » Mon Jan 22, 2007 10:01 am

I have oftentimes thought, "why were men like George Washington heros, but nowadays you'd be called a traitor?" The Americans in the 1770's were some of the most free and rich people in the world, even by today's standards. Their taxes were low. They really didn't have all that much to complain about. They did not force anyone into the army to fight in the rebillion against England. Yet men like George Washington are even declared by the Lord to be wise and raised up to overthrow the English government in Colonies and set up an new government. We have done their temple work for them. They are held in the highest esteem. So....how do we reconcile this?

One other thing...If oppressive regimes are worse than anarchy, does that mean we should not have gone into Iraq to "free the people?" If the people themselves shouldn't cast their country into chaos to overthrow an oppressive regime, neither should a foreign country I suppose.
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Postby SwissMrs&Pitchfire » Mon Jan 22, 2007 10:33 am

Tis not doctrine. Were it to be t'would be strange doctrine methinks!
"The rich can only get them (keys, signs, words, etc...) in the temple, the poor may get them on the mountaintop as did Moses." Joseph Smith HC 4:608
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Postby Mark » Mon Jan 22, 2007 10:37 am

A good thought to remember from Elder JM Grant:



"Why is it that the Latter-day Saints are perfectly calm and serene among all the convulsions of the earth--the turmoils, strife, war, pestilence, famine, and distress of nations? It is because the spirit of prophecy has made known to us that such things would actually transpire upon the earth. We understand it, and view it in its true light. We have learned it by the visions of the Almighty."(JM Grant, Journal of Discourses, 2:147)



Often times I believe our time tables may not be in line with what the Lord would have done at that juncture in history. Having a living prophet helps us to temper our lack of patience and provides us with direction of the Lords agenda and priorites. Perhaps what we see as inconsistencies and frustrations concerning government and corruption are necessary in the Lords timeframe to bring about his purposes. He knows the beginning from the end and his purposes will not be frustrated. Even if we may think at times that those purposes are not moving fast enough for our liking. George Washington had a place and purpose in the Lords agenda at that time in history. I am sure that applies today with our leaders as well. We just may not see fully what that is but in time all things will be made known to our understanding if we are patient and faithful.
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Postby jbalm » Mon Jan 22, 2007 12:17 pm

George Washington had a place and purpose in the Lords agenda at that time in history. I am sure that applies today with our leaders as well. We just may not see fully what that is but in time all things will be made known to our understanding if we are patient and faithful.


You are correct. And I supposed that is as good an answer as I can expect at this point. Although I would love to have someone point to definitive answers to the questions I posed, I don't think they exist right now (at least not in print).

We did not have a prophet on the earth in Washington's time, so I can only assume he received his inspiration directly from the Holy Ghost. Wouldn't it be interesting, though, if we were to find out that Moroni had visited George Washington before Joseph Smith was even born?
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Postby Mark » Mon Jan 22, 2007 12:46 pm

Interesting thought indeed jbalm. That would not surprise me in the least. Maybe thats how George found his way to the St. George temple to ask for his temple work to be done. He saw Moroni's statue rising above the ediface. lol
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Proclaiming Truth

Postby WYp8riot » Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:23 pm

I like the last few comments.

As far as I know, proclaiming truth regarding taxes has never been a sin.

Just because it isnt the role of the Church leaders at the current time doesnt mean education regarding truth and combinations is obsolete.

For me I have no problem sharing the truths that Russo exposes in America Freedom to Fascism and truths such as those exposed in Creature From Jeckyll Island, etc.

"One of the most fundamental principles of mormonism is truth, from wherever it may come" -Joseph Smith
"The Constitution should contain a provision that every officer of the Government who should neglect or refuse to extend the protection guaranteed in the Constitution should be subject to capital punishment"
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Postby Swmorgan77 » Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:19 pm

Stephen wrote:Here is an exerpt from the "Church Handbook of Instructions: Book 1" that I think is good to have on this topic...

"Income Taxes

Church members are obligated by the twelfth article of faith to obey the laws of the nation where they reside (see also D&C 134:5). Members who disapprove of tax laws may try to have them changed by legislation or constitutional amendment. Members wo have well-founded legal objections mahy challenge tax laws in courts.

Church members who refuse to file a tax return, pay required income taxes, or comply with a final judgement in a tax case are in direct conflict with the law and with the teachings of the Church. Such members may be ineligible for a temple recommend and should not be called to positions of principal responsiblility in the Church. Members who are convicted of willfully violating tax laws are subject to Church discipline to the extent warranted by the circumstances."


But what if the law DOESN'T require it, but only the coercive actions of the IRS? How can one be convicted of "willfully violating" laws that don't exist and through court proceedings whereing the jury is permitted only to act as finders of fact and during which the supposed "law" that is being violated is never cited or produced?

I see nothing in this statement that requires me as a member of the church to pay income taxes to the IRS, because all of the wording hinges on "violating tax laws" and "direct conflict of the law".

I file, but I do not do so out of a sense of religous or moral obligation. I do so because of a cost-benefit analysis and a desire to not jeapordize the well-being of my family.
Last edited by Swmorgan77 on Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Swmorgan77 » Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:22 pm

threepercentite wrote:Nevertheless, I, the Lord, render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s.

D&C 63:26


So then the question is, does the product of your labor belong by right to Ceazar (or the governent) or to you?
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Re: Proclaiming Truth

Postby Swmorgan77 » Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:25 pm

marvelous_truth wrote:I like the last few comments.

As far as I know, proclaiming truth regarding taxes has never been a sin.

Just because it isnt the role of the Church leaders at the current time doesnt mean education regarding truth and combinations is obsolete.

For me I have no problem sharing the truths that Russo exposes in America Freedom to Fascism and truths such as those exposed in Creature From Jeckyll Island, etc.

"One of the most fundamental principles of mormonism is truth, from wherever it may come" -Joseph Smith


Why would it be a sin not to help the IRS commit widespread racketeering and fraud? If they were to simply produce a law that requires payment of taxes on wages, then there would be no ambiguity on the part of any LDS person or any other law-abiding citizen as to their obligation.

It may still be immoral or against the spirit of the Constituion, but it would be legally required.
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Joined: Sun May 28, 2006 11:58 pm
Location: Bluffdale, UT


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