Poll: illegal immigration

For discussion of liberty, freedom, government and politics.

Are you for...

Deportation
39
54%
Amnesty
6
8%
Something in between
27
38%
 
Total votes: 72
lundbaek
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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Post by lundbaek »

Top Reasons Why S. 744 is a bad idea, from the office of Arizona Congressional Representative Matt Salmon. I read this part of the bill on line and also at Congressman Salmon's office, and can verify all of this. Both Arizona Senators, John McCain and Jeff Flake supported this bill.

1. Does not require any additional border fencing or the completion of our current border fencing requirements. Only requires DHS to submit to Congress a strategy of recommendations for additional necessary fencing.

2. Does not end the abuse of prosecutorial discretion by DHS and the administration. It directs immigration agents to release illegal aliens deemed low priority.

3. Authorizes DHS to waive unlawful behavior when determining admissibility of undocumented immigrants, including: gang membership, three or more DUIs, domestic violence, child abuse, crimes of moral turpitude, drug law violations, passport trafficking, providing fraudulent immigration services, prostitution, visa violations, and all other violations not specifically listed in the bill.

4. Allows DHS to grant legal status in 6 months, prior to any measures to secure the border.

5. Voids state and local E-verify laws.

6. Prohibits immigration enforcement actions in 'sensitive areas' including: hospitals, schools, churches, and certain organizations.

7. Does not provide for punishment of undocumented immigrants who make false statements in a registered provisional immigrant application. Yet it creates criminal penalties and a fine up to $10,000 for federal official who discloses information found on an application.

8. Does not require the deportation of a single undocumented immigrant. DHS is not explicitly required to deport an immigrant whose RPI application is denied.

9. Allows Secretary of DHS to exercise discretion to waive a ground of inadmissibility or deportability if the Secretary deems it to be against the public interest or a hardship to the family of the deportable individual.

10. Allows undocumented immigrants to bring class action lawsuits against the government for denial of RPI status.

11. Requires DHS to waive the public charge law when determining which immigrants are eligible for legal status.

12. Excludes three-time DUI offenders from a path to citizenship, but two-time drunk drivers would be acceptable.

13. Requires that passport forgers would no longer be prosecuted for making a single fake travel document, with the bar being set at three.

14. Requires that document counterfeiters whose materials are used to obtain passports would only be jailed if they contributed to at least 10 phony passports.

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Joel
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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Post by Joel »

ajax wrote:I am for the full dismantling of the welfare/warfare state, thus making immigration a non-issue.
I vote for this and Amnesty


abelchirino
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Posts: 526

Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Post by abelchirino »

The bill is a bad one and I agree. But Immigration is not the problem. Look up Milton Friedman, an Austrian economist. He has some good points about Immigration and what the real problem is. It is all part of the free market. An employer wants to pay the least as possible. The employee as well wants to be paid as much as he can. The provider wants to charge as much as he wants. The consumer wants to pay the least as possible. These are not evil desires. They are just part of our natural desire to obtain the best deal. It is the profit motif. Now, we have made it really expensive to hire. It was the fact that we allowed unconstitutional laws to be passed. All these benefits, protections and minimum wages are unconstitutional.

But funny enough though, even when the consumer and the employee support these measures, they don't want to pay more for services or products. We still want everything to be cheap. So, in order to make it cheap, these providers and employers have been forced to either break the law, by hiring illegals who are willing to work for less without any of these unconstitutional protections and benefits or to outsource just so that we Americans can have cheaper products and services. The government cannot provide the best of both worlds. Only the free market can. Our demand for cheaper products, higher wages, more government mandated benefits and protections has been answered by the supply of "cheap labor".

Then we have also allowed our government to offer welfare, handouts or provide safety nets so as to make it economically smarter to just come to the US. Many people argue that if we were to go back to an open border, the way the nation used to be, then all chaos would break loose from the uncontrollable influx of immigrants. But that is not the case. If we would abide by the Constitution and the Free-Market, you may see people coming to the US but nobody will come with a higher advantage than the ones that are already here. They will not come to steal jobs. They will not come for benefits or welfare. Some are not going to be willing to take the risk and will decide to stay where they are. Some will come and may not make it as they were expecting and may decide to go back. Some will come, labor, struggle and stick at it until they do make it and will end up being very beneficial to the overall economy. That is the American way.

That is why I believe that the free-market is a correct principle. It naturally solves so many questions and problems of society, just as the Gospel does. The Free-Market is not all that you need in order to have complete and perfect freedom but you will never have complete and perfect freedom without the Free-Market. Don't fight "cheap labor", fight "unconstitutional labor". Fight unconstitutional laws.

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M249Gunner
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Posts: 985

Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Post by M249Gunner »

Deportation. I bet that drunk driving puke that just killed that little three year old boy in Tailorsville came here illegally. I'm sick of the double standard. Illegals get away with murder (at least figuratively), yet I am expected to obey the laws. We need control of who comes into our nation.

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marc
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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Post by marc »

Beloved wrote:
I admit, I laughed. :))

I'll share another.

Image

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M249Gunner
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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Post by M249Gunner »

The Indians didn't build a wall and look what happened to them...let's learn from their mistake.; -)

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SmallFarm
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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Post by SmallFarm »

Rights come from God not from citizenship papers. We should honor any persons right to come here and work, regardless of citizenship status. Furthermore, I don't believe in a test for citizenship, state an oath in front of witnesses and you are an American citizen.

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Daryl
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Location: The land Brigham Young Banaished my people to

Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Post by Daryl »

BrianM wrote:
ajax wrote:I am for the full dismantling of the welfare/warfare state, thus making immigration a non-issue.
yes, the poll needed an option like that.
Yes, I agree.

For someone to say they are hardline for either deportation or amnesty is missing an opportunity for the correct answer. Freedom.

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Daryl
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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Post by Daryl »

SmallFarm wrote:Rights come from God not from citizenship papers. We should honor any persons right to come here and work, regardless of citizenship status. Furthermore, I don't believe in a test for citizenship, state an oath in front of witnesses and you are an American citizen.
I am not for citizenship. I am a free man on the land. I know who I am. I do not understand, yet I try to lift others up.

freedomforall
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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Post by freedomforall »

M249Gunner wrote:The Indians didn't build a wall and look what happened to them...let's learn from their mistake.; -)
Had they had the Book of Mormon they would have known how to build fortifications for protection. ;)

GeeR
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Posts: 1635

Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Post by GeeR »

sevenator wrote:Link to the story I provided was furnished by a man claiming to be the uncle of the 3 year-old in a post on another (non-religion based) forum that I frequent. I do not know if he is the mother or father's sibling.

From his post:
Our family needs prayers during this difficult time. His older brother was sitting right next to him during the accident and his last memory of his little brother will be of him dying at the scene. The driver was an uninsured illegal from mexico...The driver tried to walk away but was luckily detained by the good folks that stopped to help.
Exercise your own judgement, but you don't really think anyone in the media would report that the man was illegal, do you?
So my question now is, after this miscarriage of vital information that was withheld from us in this case by the media, was the recent shooting of the two deputy sheriffs in Utah by one Jose Angel Garcia-Juaregui an illegal alien also?

freedomforall
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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Post by freedomforall »

SmallFarm wrote:Rights come from God not from citizenship papers. We should honor any persons right to come here and work, regardless of citizenship status. Furthermore, I don't believe in a test for citizenship, state an oath in front of witnesses and you are an American citizen.
So let's bring the President of Mexico up here and let him run the country. Is this what you're implying? How about a potential terrorist or a drug Cartel?
God says to seek honest, wise and good men for office. Most Americans don't even do this!
We let every person into the country that wants to be here and put them to work, you just might regret that choice.
I like the point made above, that the Indians didn't build a wall, and the country was flooded with immigrants, of whom, many turned ugly and killed the Indians for the want of their land and to feel superior. You think many illegals aren't causing havoc in our country? I'm not saying all of them are not good, but a good share of them are in our prisons. Check the numbers. Many more running the streets with knives, guns, and whatever else, scaring, intimidating or killing people, even each other, and forcing young US citizens to join in or be maimed or killed. Eventually, this country will be exactly what the illegals left behind because there is no control over moral and ethical decay among us.
Bad is like cancer, a very good person gets cancer and soon the cancer overtakes the whole body and destroys what was good. What then is buried is a carcass overrun with disease. Bad in this country is a disease to its good, upstanding citizens. Thus, eventually the whole country will be riddled with the bad and freedom and liberty will be dead, because the bad set up new rules, new ways of living, not assimilating into a republic they do not understand but a nation of dog eat dog.
Read the scriptures, they testify of how civilizations become corrupt and then God has to sweep them off the map. Jacob ch 5 is a great analogy of how bad overruns good and the effects from it.
If this nation is to remain free, remain the land of promise, a land that is desirable...there must be good, honest and wise people in it, keeping God's commandments,learning of and living under our Constitution, not making up their own rules and laws contrary to God's laws.

lundbaek
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Location: Mesa, Arizona

Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Post by lundbaek »

Those who think righteousness and charity include allowing for open immigration would do well to investigate for themselves the people and the motives behind the fomenting of illegal immigration. And those who think that God-given rights include the right to freely come into and live and work in the United States would do well to learn what God wanted America to become and how many immigrants have detracted from that goal.

freedomforall
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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Post by freedomforall »

lundbaek wrote:Those who think righteousness and charity include allowing for open immigration would do well to investigate for themselves the people and the motives behind the fomenting of illegal immigration. And those who think that God-given rights include the right to freely come into and live and work in the United States would do well to learn what God wanted America to become and how many immigrants have detracted from that goal.
I wish people would learn to think outside the box. Thanks, Lundbaek, for your knowledge.

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SmallFarm
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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Post by SmallFarm »

So you guys believe that those that left Europe should have stayed where they were and built up freedom there?

lundbaek
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Location: Mesa, Arizona

Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Post by lundbaek »

Perhaps some of you do not recall when the Church advised members in other countries to not immigrate to the United States, but to stay ("bloom where you were planted") and help build up the Church in those countries. Having lived and worked about 11 years in various European countries I can attest to a noticeable lack of priesthood and strong families in those countries due to emigration to America. Then of course there was the Church statement published 10 June 2011 which one can read at http://newsroom.lds.org/article/immigra ... -statement" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; which includes the statement "As a matter of policy, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints discourages its members from entering any country without legal documentation, and from deliberately overstaying legal travel visas."

Something more one might consider. According to statements in the Doctrine and Covenants and recorded statements especially of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Orson Pratt, John Taylor, Melvin J. Ballard, J. Reuben Clark, Harold B. Lee, and Ezra Taft Benson, it appears that God committed to Americans the task of learning and upholding the principles of the US Constitution as it was intended to be understood by the Lord such that by example those principles would reverberate to other nations where people would desire to live by its precepts and choose to be governed by them, and those principles would be established forever. That appears to have been the wish. Interesting it is that those statements were given specifically to Latter-day Saints. But instead of the precepts of the US Constitution being emulated in other countries, Americans are increasingly espousing and adopting tyrannical ideologies of other nations. One of my fears for America is that most immigrants, including many LDS immigrants coming into the United States now bring with them political persuasions that are destructive to our constitutional republic.

GeeR
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Posts: 1635

Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Post by GeeR »

lundbaek wrote:Perhaps some of you do not recall when the Church advised members in other countries to not immigrate to the United States, but to stay ("bloom where you were planted") and help build up the Church in those countries. Having lived and worked about 11 years in various European countries I can attest to a noticeable lack of priesthood and strong families in those countries due to emigration to America. Then of course there was the Church statement published 10 June 2011 which one can read at http://newsroom.lds.org/article/immigra ... -statement" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; which includes the statement "As a matter of policy, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints discourages its member from entering any country without legal documentation, and from deliberately overstaying legal travel visas."

Something more one might consider. According to statements in the Doctrine and Covenants and recorded statements especially of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Orson Pratt, John Taylor, Melvin J. Ballard, J. Reuben Clark, Harold B. Lee, and Ezra Taft Benson, it appears that God committed to Americans the task of learning and upholding the principles of the US Constitution as it was intended to be understood by the Lord such that by example those principles would reverberate to other nations where people would desire to live by its precepts and choose to be governed by them, and those principles would be established forever. That appears to have been the wish. Interesting it is that those statements were given specifically to Latter-day Saints. But instead of the precepts of the US Constitution being emulated in other countries, Americans are increasingly espousing and adopting tyrannical ideologies of other nations. One of my fears for America is that most immigrants, including many LDS immigrants coming into the United States now bring with them political persuasions that are destructive to our constitutional republic.
Great insight, thanks!

abelchirino
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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Post by abelchirino »

I see a lot of simple minded people in this topic. Sorry for being honest. I more than anything believe in the honoring and sustaining the law and also in the Constitution as the Supreme Law of the Land. I do not agree with an amnesty either. Now it is true about the Church policy in regards to immigration, but that does not discourage immigration, only illegal or undocumented immigration. The first statement was not given as church policy. I believe our current immigration laws are a result of bad policies in the past. Illegal immigration is only a symptom. Nobody will ever say that immigration before the 1900's hurt America. The borders were relatively open during those times. Almost everybody recognizes that America was benefitted greatly by immigration. But for sometime now, after the first half of the 1900's, almost everybody feels that open borders would hurt America. Why is that? Why that inconsistency?

The main reason is the rise of the welfare state. I don't condone the welfare state, at any level (even for tax-payers). But the rise of the welfare state caused the great influx of illegals immigrants into this country. It is our fault that they're here. It has a lot to be with economics. In a true free-market society, contrary to many of the obtuse comments given in this topic, an open border would not mean an overwhelming influx of immigrants. That is what I love about the free-market-that it is a self-regulator. People will voluntarily regulate themselves. Some will decide to take the risk to come. Some will decide that the risk is too great and will decide not to come. As for those who come, some will eventually make it and will benefit the economy. Some will eventually fail and go back to their countries. Nobody will have a greater advantage than another. The welfare state encourages illegal immigration. Get rid of the welfare state, get rid of every unconstitutional law (like minimum wage laws, employee protection laws, government guaranteed benefits and privileges-EVERYTHING UNCONSTITUTIONAL!!!) and you will see the free-market will regulate your borders better than you could.

Anyone advocating anything close to a closed border does not understand true freedom nor will his ideas fix anything. Go to the root of the problem-THE WELFARE STATE! Abide by the Constitution! That is the real solution. Unfortunately we have rejected the Constitution and have allowed ourselves to be seduced by unprincipled politicians. Under our current unconstitutional system, it is a sad reality that we need "cheap labor". If we were to artificially get rid of what some label as "cheap labor", then we would see prices rising overwhelmingly, unemployment rising overwhelmingly and businesses either closing or outsourcing at an overwhelming level as well. If we were to get rid of unconstitutional labor and the welfare state, then we wouldn't have any illegal immigration issues. There would be no need of restrictive immigration laws.

Now the scriptures make it clear, immigration could also be, in part, a result of the rise of wickedness and unbelief in the American society. The Lord states it in 3rd Nephi.

Unfortunately we haven't learned in this country, we try to attack the symptoms and we continue to make things worst. Seek the real root of the problem.

lundbaek
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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Post by lundbaek »

" Abide by the Constitution! That is the real solution." says abelchirino. Abide by which constitution ? The original Constitution ? The constitution as amended in accordance with Article V ? Or the constitution as it has been changed in the minds of many by the "informal amendment process" including "presidential actions, Supreme Court decisions, activities of political parties, and custom", as stated in, of all places, the BSA Citizenship In The Nation" merit badge handbook ? I have yet to encounter a serious and reasonably well educated supporter of amnesty and open borders who does not claim that the US Constitution permits open border immigration and amnesty.

abelchirino
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Posts: 526

Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Post by abelchirino »

lundbaek wrote:" Abide by the Constitution! That is the real solution." says abelchirino. Abide by which constitution ? The original Constitution ? The constitution as amended in accordance with Article V ? Or the constitution as it has been changed in the minds of many by the "informal amendment process" including "presidential actions, Supreme Court decisions, activities of political parties, and custom", as stated in, of all places, the BSA Citizenship In The Nation" merit badge handbook ? I have yet to encounter a serious and reasonably well educated supporter of amnesty and open borders who does not claim that the US Constitution permits open border immigration and amnesty.
Well I'm not a supporter of amnesty. I'm against that idea. Amnesty could be as harmful for our economy as a complete deportation could be. Now when I mentioned the Constitution and our nation now living under an unconstitutional system, I assumed everyone would understand that I meant the Constitution in the language of our Founding Fathers. I apologize for assuming too much. Now if you read the Constitution carefully, it does not permit nor prohibit an open border. The Constitution was not intended to lay out the nation's immigration policy. It only lays out that the Federal Government has the power to make laws regarding immigration and naturalization. Obviously our elected leaders (and the ones that were supposed to be elected by our State legislatures) can write immigration laws however they see fit, according to the Constitution.

But in many respects, immigration is an issue of principle. I am a firm believer of the free-market, as I stated previously. I believe that when you allow businesses to compete, without restrictions from government, under a healthy and free market, the results will always be in favor of the consumer. That is why protectionist laws (protecting American businesses from foreign businesses) have always hurt the economy and the consumer. The government should not be in the business of choosing winners and losers. I believe the principle is the same for foreigners. Under a true free-market, with no welfare or unconstitutional laws, privileges, protections or benefits, people will truly succeed based on their worth and output. If a foreigner cannot perform a job as good as you and as efficient as you, then he will not get the job nor steal it. The problem is that we have made employment so expensive for employers. So many unconstitutional laws have been passed that just put so many unnecessary burdens on employers. The problems are increased when you consider that some jobs just can't be expensive.

Now under our unconstitutional system, it was necessary to overregulate who enters into our borders. Why? Because when you live under a welfare state, with many unconstitutional privileges, benefits and protections, you cannot afford to have an open or semi-open border. You have to regulate everything. Why do you think that in some socialist and communist countries, people are not allowed to move even within the country freely. Because you have to know who and where and when these unconstitutional privileges, protections and benefits are being granted.

So as the welfare state rises, and more unconstitutional laws are passed, businesses that cannot afford to pay for expensive or unconstitutional labor have to look for the so-called cheap labor. Now this isn't only the employers' faults-it's our fault too. Because we have allowed employment to become so expensive by allowing unconstitutional measures to be passed, and since we still want our favorite products and services to be as cheap as possible, these employers are forced to seek alternative methods. One of these methods is employing individuals who are not eligible for these unconstitutional positions, privileges, benefits and protections (I'm not talking about welfare here) in order to spend less in hiring and therefore charge less when offering their products and services. The other method is the infamous practice of outsourcing to countries in which labor is not nearly as expensive as in the United States (again because of our unconstitutional labor). So we have brought this upon ourselves.

The third thing is that by allowing the welfare state to rise, as it has, you make it only logical to relocate to the United States. I mean think about it, if you lived under meager circumstances for x reasons, and you know you can receive so many free things by just relocating to a different country, wouldn't you be tempted to move to that place? So immigration isn't the problem itself. It is only a symptom. As gun violence is only a symptom. As high percentage of uninsured Americans is only a symptom. As high medical costs are only a symptom. You need to go to the real issue. To the true source. Cut the problem by the root and you will get rid of all your other symptoms.

abelchirino
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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Post by abelchirino »

Now I do agree with some previous comments about illegal immigrants coming into this country with leftist beliefs. That is true. Me being a Hispanic, though born in the United States, can testify that the majority of Hispanics favor leftist policies. I did too, for a long time. It's hard not to fall for that when TV promotes these ideas, when music promotes these ideas, when you hear these things at home or among people you and in public schools. But I awoke from all that and now I can see the truth.

Unfortunately, the majority of Hispanics still do believe in leftist policies. This doesn't mean that all do though, I know of many who are completely against anything from the "left" and feel a great love for this country-even some who are illegal. But it is true, I believe that this whole immigration issue is being used by unprincipled politicians (that have already sold out). They know that if they are able to grant amnesty that they can use the millions of now illegal immigrants as leverage.

But as for what I said before, I strongly encourage to look Austrian economist Milton Friedman up. He was a very wise man and very outspoken. He died already though but he has talked about the immigration issue and has some good thoughts on the matter.

lundbaek
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Location: Mesa, Arizona

Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Post by lundbaek »

No need to apologize, abelchirino, for not being more specific about which constitution. I was being nitpicking only to make the point that we need to be careful when speaking about the Constitution. I was off on a tangent for reasons of my own. I simply want more people to realize what has become of our Constitution and how it is being distorted from what I believe the Lord, who established it by the hands of wise men, intended it to be understood. I appreciate your thoughtful analysis of the illegal immigration situation. It is worthy of careful consideration. I do not understand all of the issues associated with immigration, even though my wife went thru all the hassle and immigrated to the USA after we were married in Europe. And I never objected to the "hassle", just the incompetence of certain officials along the way.

My biggest concern Re. immigration, legal or illegal, is that most immigrants, including many LDS immigrants coming into the United States, now bring with them political persuasions that are destructive to our constitutional republic. But I think that could be said of many current Church members in America. And I do believe illegal immigration has been and continues to be fomented by people intent on destroying America's culture and siphon off its wealth. Their intent is to increase the size of the socialist voting bloc by securing voting rights for immigrants of socialist persuasion and make a shambles of America to grease the skids for a global government to take us over.

abelchirino
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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Post by abelchirino »

You're right in that. I've seen how much indoctrination occurs in this country and in the Hispanic community, everything is portrayed in such a way that kids grow up liking the Democratic Party at best, and wanting Socialism/Communism at worst. Nobody talks about the Constitution, nor of the Free-Market nor of the Welfare state truthfully (even among members). And many grow up hating the so-called "rich", hating the American way of life and hating the "white man" who they see as an oppressor. I say that because I have seen it in the media, in the entertainment industry and in the public schools. It is one big conspiracy. It isn't so much that they come already hating these things, (if they hated them they wouldn't come) but it's because they continually indoctrinated by that type of rhetoric. I had to learn about all of this on my own. Nobody talks about the globalist conspiracy.

Now that I have seen all of this with my own eyes, I feel very concerned that the majority in the Hispanic community (specially those that are LDS) are completely unaware of all of this. It worries me because I know that they will only be used as leverage in order to, as you say, advance the globalist agenda. My relatives always argue with me and insult me because of what I believe now. Its crazy how deceived they are. I'm just thankful that my Heavenly Father has allowed me to see this before history catches up with us. That is why, even though my ancestors do not come from the same place than those of white Americans, I nevertheless feel a great love and respect for the Founding Fathers.

Now I've heard other solutions. Joel Skousen supports a form of sponsor system, where people come only when they will be sponsored by an America citizen and the sponsor makes sure to keep them accountable, and that they have appropriate housing and a job (so that the Government does not have to provide anything). But this again is if we were to live under the welfare state or if we were to still have many unconstitutional laws. That's why I believe that going back to the Constitutional, according to Founding Fathers, could be the solution to our current immigration issue.

lundbaek
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Location: Mesa, Arizona

Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Post by lundbaek »

From abelchirino's last 2 posts: "the majority in the Hispanic community (specially those that are LDS) are completely unaware of all of this." (meaning, as I understand him the globalist conspiracy); "the majority of Hispanics favor leftist policies"; "the majority of Hispanics still do believe in leftist policies."; "they will only be used as leverage in order to, as you say, advance the globalist agenda." I believe that could be said about most members of the Church regardless of their national or ethnic background.

"Nobody talks about the Constitution," And nobody talks about the globalist conspiracy (secret combinations) either. Well, it is clear to me that the Church is not gonna make any overt effort to educate its members on these subjects. Folks, it is up to us to do what we are able to bring members to an awareness of their "sacred duty to honour the Constitution and to honour freedom", as President Packer expressed it a few years ago.

lundbaek
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Re: Poll: illegal immigration

Post by lundbaek »

Well, here we are now just over a year and a half later, and just look at the current so-called "refugee" crisis that has been fomented.... by WHOM ? And for WHAT PURPOSE ? Of course we have to treat these new immigrants with kindness, compassion and civility. From my understanding and observations, Americans generally treated war prisoners with kindness, compassion and civility. Not always, but certainly much better than American POWs were often treated. They were treated as criminals by enemies of certain cultures. And, BTW, Britain and European countries are currently experiencing the same refugee crises. I only wish all Americans understood that this crisis has been fomented to help bring about great changes in America.

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