The Not Even Once Club

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Thomas
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Re: The Not Even Once Club

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How many will remain members of the club? Answer Zero. Sorry some of you Zoramites don't get that. You deny the Christ when you think you can live a perfect life.

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skmo
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Re: The Not Even Once Club

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Knowing Wendy as I do, I feel safe in saying she had only the highest best in writing this book. She urges having the highest of standards. I haven't read the book, so I don't know what she put in there about the idea of mercy to accompany the quest for perfection, but I do know that if she's saying that we should teach our children to be perfect, she's recommending that people teach their children to follow the words of the Savior. I don't know if any of these "expert" child pshrinks have come out and said people should avoid the scriptures because Jesus commands us in there to be perfect, but it wouldn't surprise me.

Children read books about little girls breaking into houses and eating someone else's porridge. They read about a man travelling through forests and finding a passed out woman and waking her with a kiss (a strange woman!) They read about a littlte boy chopping down an enormous beanstalk to kill a giant so he can get away with stealing the giant's gold-producing bird.

I'm guessing some of these "pshrinks" think that Miley popping her booty, rubbing her crotch with a foam finger or simulating sex with some dude is a healthy expression of self image for children to see. I remain unimpressed.

AshleyB
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Re: The Not Even Once Club

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jonrizzy wrote:Thanks Ashley. I read your post again and can see you are just poking fun. The fact that I took offense says more about me than you. I just hear this Utah Mormon thing thrown around a lot (not so much on this forum) and it bugs me. Utah is a focal point and we often don't live up to the billing. But I just need to let it go.
No worries jonirizzy. :ymhug: We all have those sensitive buttons based on our experiences. I feel like that sometimes too with different things. The internet is also a really difficult place to communicate properly. Thanks for your kindness. :)

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Ben McClintock
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Re: The Not Even Once Club

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Thomas wrote:How many will remain members of the club? Answer Zero. Sorry some of you Zoramites don't get that. You deny the Christ when you think you can live a perfect life.
I assume the irony of your post escapes you

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Fairminded
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Re: The Not Even Once Club

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BMC wrote:
In light of this book, does anyone have any children book recommendations for ages 6-8 (boy/girl)? I am lacking in that area of books on the shelf for kids that are gospel related and would like to build that up. Thanks!
I agree with ajax that Farmer Boy, and all the Little House series books, are very wholesome and entertaining. I read them all when I was younger and still pick one up every now and again.

For younger kids, though, one of my favorite books as a young child is called the "Do Something Day", about a boy whose helpfulness ends up saving the day for a family celebration he's excited for. I think teaching kids good attitudes and behaviors in a fun way goes a lot farther than setting impossible standards they'll then feel guilty about not meeting.

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skmo
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Re: The Not Even Once Club

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Thomas wrote:How many will remain members of the club? Answer Zero. Sorry some of you Zoramites don't get that. You deny the Christ when you think you can live a perfect life.
Slightly different question: How many are foolish enough to think this would be taken as a "Follow this or die" creed by children?

Another thought that Wendy probably hoped would go along with this: This book carried a strong message to give a clear direction to follow, with the understanding that parents would read this with their children and help them learn along the way about the importance of repentence?

I am a teacher. When I give out a test, my students automatically know they need to answer all the questions, they also know they're going to get some wrong. The next time, hopefully they study more. If they all do bad, I know I need to teach better, but I don't need to lower the standards, I need to raise the standards and do more to make sure they're learning the right way. As long as I know they're doing the best they can, if they show improvement their grades will reflect it. If circumstances warrant, I may offer a way to get extra credit before final grades come out, but I won't reward sloth or wilfull ignorance with a chance to skate by with busy work. This is the same lesson Ileadned from some of my favorite teachers at Ricks College, and I hope it's similar to the way people are teaching their kids.

Thomas
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Re: The Not Even Once Club

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Ben McClintock wrote:
Thomas wrote:How many will remain members of the club? Answer Zero. Sorry some of you Zoramites don't get that. You deny the Christ when you think you can live a perfect life.
I assume the irony of your post escapes you
I guess you don't understand why we need Christ. If he were to kick us out for one infraction, he would be in the club alone. Sorry but such a club does not represent the gospel, for me. We all make mistakes. We all fall down. We need Christ to accept us, inspite of our mistakes. We don't need to be rejected for our mistakes.

I guess you are not aware of how many have developed a hatred of the church because of the poor treatment received at the hands of self-righteous members. I have seen children ostracized because their parents were not members. Is this Christian? Is the book Christian?

Only one lived or will ever live a perfect life.

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BMC
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Re: The Not Even Once Club

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ajax wrote:
BMC wrote:In light of this book, does anyone have any children book recommendations for ages 6-8 (boy/girl)? I am lacking in that area of books on the shelf for kids that are gospel related and would like to build that up. Thanks!
Not a "church" book, but Farmer Boy is a good one. My wife and children still discuss it affectionately 10 yrs after they read it.
http://www.amazon.com/Farmer-Little-Hou ... 0064400034" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Thanks for the book recommendation I appreciate it! And thanks fairminded I will look into your recommendation as well.

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skmo
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Re: The Not Even Once Club

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Thomas wrote:
Ben McClintock wrote:
Thomas wrote:How many will remain members of the club? Answer Zero. Sorry some of you Zoramites don't get that. You deny the Christ when you think you can live a perfect life.
I assume the irony of your post escapes you
I guess you don't understand why we need Christ....
I see better now why Brian made the comment in another thread that some people just talk past each other. Thomas, I believe the people jumping to support Wendy's book did so because they believe it is a good message to send, the idea that we need to teach the highest of standards. There is no proclaiming that anyone believes themself to be better than anyone else, just that they supported the idea of the highest of standards, just lie the scriptures tell us to have.

Ben, Thomas probably didn't see any irony in his statement because he saw the comments made by som people differently that you did. He, also, was not claiming to be better than anyone else, but he misinterpreted someone's statement.

Thomas (again) we all know the scriptures here, and in addition to knowing we are commanded to be perfect, we also know they tell us that we all fall short. Redemption and mercy are important parts of the gospel, and we recognize the importance of having the Savior in our lives.

Have the highest standards. Teach your children to have them as well. When (not if) they make mistakes, explain to them that there is such a thing as redemption (most of the time) but that it comes at a cost. Teach them to use those mistakes, not to lower their standards, but to raise them.

Thomas
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Re: The Not Even Once Club

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it is great to have high standards. Not great to exclude people for not being perfect.

embryopocket
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Re: The Not Even Once Club

Post by embryopocket »

I haven't read the book so I can't really give any opinions, but the holier than thou attitude of the Saints (yes, mainly in Utah even though I don't like to admit it) is our biggest problem as a church, in my opinion. It seemed to be the focus of Christ's preaching to the church while he was in Jerusalem and I don't see why we can't make it the center of our preaching today.

I'll have to flip through it the next time I go into Deseret Book and analyze the feeling it gives me.

pritchet1
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Re: The Not Even Once Club

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Thank God there is a Plan of Salvation and a way to overcome our weaknesses and repent. We came to earth to experience both good and evil so we could learn the difference. That experience does not come by osmosis.

There are clubs full of hypocrites and God trounces the hypocrite. But we should all be striving for perfection. We just don't need to get stressed over it. The pharmaceutical profession must adore Utah. =))

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ajax
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Re: The Not Even Once Club

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Ben McClintock wrote:The criticism of this book is sad.
Give me a break. Book review dude. So books published be DesBook are beyond critical review?

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ajax
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Re: The Not Even Once Club

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Original_Intent wrote:
ajax wrote:
Original_Intent wrote:that book makes me sad.
this thread, which is just an opportunity for the Love Denver Snuffer (LDS) group to pile on also makes me sad.
OI, not sure why you say this. You are the first one in the thread to bring up Snuffer. This book has been out for a little while now, and has made the rounds of various blogs and forums.

That being said, I hope this thread sticks to the ideas (good and bad) presented in the book, which is completely legitimate to discuss.

Not all book reviews are going to be positive, and I personally think this book deserves a thumbs down.
Not sure if you are being disingenuous or sincere; Denver was brought up because Denver's blog post about this book was the motive force behind this thread.
Sincere. Not sure how you know Denver was the motive force behind it. I knew about this book a week or so ago through other sites and forums. When I saw this thread, I thought nothing of Denver.

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Ben McClintock
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Re: The Not Even Once Club

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ajax wrote:
Ben McClintock wrote:The criticism of this book is sad.
Give me a break. Book review dude. So books published be DesBook are beyond critical review?
Yep that's ecstatically what I said

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BMC
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Re: The Not Even Once Club

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ajax wrote:
Sincere. Not sure how you know Denver was the motive force behind it. I knew about this book a week or so ago through other sites and forums. When I saw this thread, I thought nothing of Denver.
I read about this book from Amazon's website this morning when I was looking for LDS children's books, then I found an article in Salt Lake Tribune when searching for other reviews of the book this afternoon. http://m.sltrib.com/sltrib/mobile3/5685 ... b.html.csp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Then I posted it on here asking for thoughts on this book if anyone read it. I got a lot more than I bargained for and yes Denver posted something on his blog today as well about it. I learned this because someone shared it in this thread. This thread has nothing to do with Denver. Yet I suppose any LDS related hot topic will now be somehow construed that it had to do with Denver.

Thanks Ajax and Fairminded for the other books you recommended. If anyone else has recommendations for 6-8 years old, boys and girls LDS books, moral uplifting books for children. Please share some here or PM me as to avoid any contention or misrepresentation of my intentions. Thank you.

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skmo
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Re: The Not Even Once Club

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ajax wrote:
Ben McClintock wrote:The criticism of this book is sad.
Give me a break. Book review dude. So books published be DesBook are beyond critical review?
Not at all. Neither is criticizing book critics who suffer from severe cases of rectal-cranial inversion syndrome.

AshleyB
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Re: The Not Even Once Club

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I personally am not bothered by this thread but I understand others are. When I was reading all the reviews on Sister Nelsons book ALL the negative ones... I mean it went on and on with negative reviews. It did get a little insane just with how many there were. I def felt bad for her. And it IS a place for reviewing books and I see why many people don't necessarily like the book. I just think it is possible to separate things and I sometimes wish we could have discussions without things always turning personal or making things about people instead of topics. I do not know Sister Nelson personally but have never doubted for a second that she is a wonderful person and had the best intentions with writing this book. Therefore I am willing to give others the benefit of the doubt and assume they were probably thinking just the same as me. I do not think not liking the book has to have ANYTHING to do with what people think of her personally and I wish things didn't always have to turn so serious and personal as often as they do.

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Fairminded
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Re: The Not Even Once Club

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AshleyB wrote:I personally am not bothered by this thread but I understand others are. When I was reading all the reviews on Sister Nelsons book ALL the negative ones... I mean it went on and on with negative reviews. It did get a little insane just with how many there were. I def felt bad for her. And it IS a place for reviewing books and I see why many people don't necessarily like the book. I just think it is possible to separate things and I sometimes wish we could have discussions without things always turning personal or making things about people instead of topics. I do not know Sister Nelson personally but have never doubted for a second that she is a wonderful person and had the best intentions with writing this book. Therefore I am willing to give others the benefit of the doubt and assume they were probably thinking just the same as me. I do not think not liking the book has to have ANYTHING to do with what people think of her personally and I wish things didn't always have to turn so serious and personal as often as they do.
What you fail to consider is that everyone involved in the project, including I'm sure her husband, Church leaders, Deseret Book executives and her editors and publisher, all had a chance to look over the material, and they all found it perfectly acceptable.

Not one of them tried to correct her disastrously damaging misconception. Instead they gave it the leadership stamp of approval and sent it into a million homes to destroy the psyches of impressionable young children.

None of the reviews were personal attacks on Sister Nelson. I read them ALL. They were attacks on the message the book teaches and the institution that greenlights such a book as appropriate for its membership. A book like this is not only against the message of the Atonement, the cornerstone of the Gospel, but paints the Church in a terrible light for nonmembers and makes faithful members question what they've been taught.

It's not good for anyone, and deserves to be criticized. However nice Sister Nelson is, and no one doubts that she is a very sweet and faithful woman, she wrote a horrible book and she needs to retract it.

AshleyB
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Re: The Not Even Once Club

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I get it Fairminded. :) I agree completely that the reviews were not meant to be personal attacks. That is what I was trying to say in my post but I prob didn't do a very good job. I just was trying to say that while I understood the reason so many do not like the book I also simultaniously felt bad for her because it prob does have to suck to have something you wrote and put time into to be so publicly criticized. I can both feel sympathy for her and agree the book does not seem to sound too good all at the same time. I assumed others probably felt the same and thats why this thread/ discussion is not offensive to me.

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Fairminded
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Re: The Not Even Once Club

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AshleyB wrote:I get it Fairminded. :) I agree completely that the reviews were not meant to be personal attacks. That is what I was trying to say in my post but I prob didn't do a very good job. I just was trying to say that while I understood the reason so many do not like the book I also simultaniously felt bad for her because it prob does have to suck to have something you wrote and put time into to be so publicly criticized. I can both feel sympathy for her and agree the book does not seem to sound too good all at the same time. I assumed others probably felt the same and thats why this thread/ discussion is not offensive to me.
Sorry if I misunderstood your post before. I agree completely that I can sympathize with her. I've written things myself that I thought would get a good reaction that instead get burned to a crisp, and I've publicly stated opinions that I later reconsidered and recanted or no longer spoke for. Having such a mistake happen and be almost universally criticized on a public forum has got to be very troubling.

Her situation could have been prevented in a couple of simple ways. First off, if the LDS culture didn't so often create the false portrayal that the Gospel is a "Not Even Once" club, teaching members to think like this. Secondly if the people closest to her, particularly her husband who is a member of the Quorum of the Twelve, had had the kindness and courage to point out to her the error of her message and encouraged her to make changes to it to focus around acceptance and the Atonement, rather than unrealistic expectations of perfection and the promise of shunning if those expectations aren't met. If she'd had some warning of what her message signified before she put it out to the world then she wouldn't be in a position where it could be criticized.

The fact that this book could slip through the cracks and make it to publication and promotion by the Church is deeply troubling. The notion that maybe it didn't actually slip through the cracks and this is the message Church leadership really wants to send to members and to the world, well, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and assume this was just a mistake and hope they'll correct it.

Thank goodness the world isn't a "Not Even Once" club and the Atonement exists for all of us.

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gkearney
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Re: The Not Even Once Club

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BMC wrote:In light of this book, does anyone have any children book recommendations for ages 6-8 (boy/girl)? I am lacking in that area of books on the shelf for kids that are gospel related and would like to build that up. Thanks!
OK a bit of shameless self promotion here. Take a look at my book: The Apple Trees of Tschlin ISBN 9781599550985

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lemuel
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Re: The Not Even Once Club

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Fairminded wrote: The fact that this book could slip through the cracks and make it to publication and promotion by the Church is deeply troubling. The notion that maybe it didn't actually slip through the cracks and this is the message Church leadership really wants to send to members and to the world, well, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and assume this was just a mistake and hope they'll correct it.
Does the Church own Deseret Book? I wasn't under the impression that anything published by DB had an official stamp of approval.

For that matter, I wasn't sure that DB was primarily in the book business. From recent DB catalogs I've seen, I assumed DB is to religious books as MTV is to music videos.

pritchet1
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Re: The Not Even Once Club

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Boy, if Adam and Eve had ever felt "not even once"(tm) none of us would be here discussing this, now would we?

I believe those who critic such books need to take a serious look at themselves and their agenda. God wants us to be perfect. He also wants us to experience both good and evil so we can make correct decisions in our lives based on our experiences.

The only ones who declare that perfection is not a good thing to pursue (bad for the psyche) are already in the camp of the opposition to God's plan. However, it would appear that the LDS Utah women tend to over-reach in their efforts to reach perfect and miss the mark by medicating themselves because they put such pressure on themselves to be the "perfect wife" or "perfect Saint" or perfect whatever.

There are many things where I was in the "Not Even Once" mode. It made me one-dimentional and unempathetic to other's trials and tribulations. Some things require "Not Even Once" and that is why we have commandments - to avoid those pitfalls we might otherwise experience.

And for heaven's sake, this is a children's book. Here we are discussing how harmful it must be while we have adults teaching masterbation to kindergartners and same-sex indoctrination, mentally abusing our progenitors so the young may loose their innocence practically from the time they have gotten out of infancy!

Get some perspective, folks!

Meanwhile, the Constitution is being shredded and the Gadiantons have gotten power over us.

Maybe our congress critters should read this book and feel ashamed for what they have become. :ymdevil:

Gazelem
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Re: The Not Even Once Club

Post by Gazelem »

keep the faith wrote:Looks like Denver Snuffer has jumped to her defense. I'm sure he is being sincere here. Right? :-s

http://denversnuffer.blogspot.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Actually, I found it rather sarcastic. In fact, ever sense him publishing his whole deal about his disciplinary council and excommunication on the internet, his true colors are starting to show it seems, most of his updates are laced with sarcasm and dishonesty. But yes, some have said this thread is the opportunity for Snuffer lovers. I didn't hear about this book until I saw snuffer's update to be honest.

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