The War in Iraq

[tnerbcaptain of 10]

Well i sense some opposition to the conflict in Iraq. Agree or not with the reason for the invasion, we are there now. I think the Iraqi people deserve every chance at freedom and democracy. Perhaps if things continue to pick up, then maybe one day the gospel can be preached there. Afterall every ear shall hear, shall it not?

[lundbaekcaptain of 1,000]

I have believed all along that the U.S. never should have attacked Iraq in the first place because I believed all along that America was not immediately threatened by Saddam, who, like Osama bin Laden, was initially empowered by elements of the US government. The powers that be have done a really great marketing job on the American public with the Iraq War. They have convinced most Americans that one must support the war and the president is a loyal American, and anyone who opposes the president or the war is a traitor, even though one supports the men and women fighting the war. The U.S. Congress illegally allowed the President to invade a country that posed no immediate or direct threat to America. Good grief, China, Russia, and North Korea pose a much greater threat to us that Iraq. I suspect there were no weapons of mass destruction, and even if there were, the U.S. had no more right to object than Saddam had a right to object to U.S. WMDs. And I’m not convinced that Iraq was even building nuclear weapons capability. I don’t believe Saddam Hussein's regime had any connection to Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda, and was not responsible for the attacks on the Pentagon and the World Trade Center. I believe the powers that be behind the United States’ government were responsible for that, including the creation of al-Qaeda and use of Osama bin Laden to inflict terror on Americans. All the reasons given by the administration to justify this war I consider to be false. The President and his administration originally claimed the attack on Iraq was needed to fight terrorism. Now they insist that the effort is needed to build democracy in Iraq. It is not America’s place to tell the Iraqi people what kind of government they should have. Careful examination of the US Constitution should make it clear that it forbids "nation building". Anyone who wants to help the people of Iraq or any other country attain greater freedom is free to go there themselves and have at it, but such person is not free to insist that others pay for it. It is not America’s right to deny Iraq WMDs. Certainly not as long as The U.S.A. and other countries maintain them.

[tnerbcaptain of 10]

Far out, Im not even american and Im more patriotic than you. Firstly, I study this all day every day as I am involved in International relations. Trust me, Iraq was a a threat to the free world. For starters( a bit of history) Saddam hussein invaded two neighbouring nations, the wars of which killed an estimated 1.5million people. He brutally supressed a shia uprising killing 300000, not to mention the Kurds and the ten thousand killed in the infamous gas attack. Here's what most people dont know and the media seams to gloss over (and about everything else thats positive in Iraq). Weapons of mass destruction have been found. No there have been no nuclear weapons. I honestly think thats not that big of a threat anyway, what kind of an idiot would use them with M.A.D. But large amount of chemical and biological weapons have been discovered, albeit in scattered quantities. Next we have his plans fro as soon as sanctions were lifted. A very small percentage of Dcouments captured during th war have been translated(there are literally millions). He had plans to inclcude biological weapon into areosol cans, that would then be exported to the west (thats both of us). He sposored Palestinean terrosits, giving massive pay outs to any "martyr"s family and funding weapons etc etc. Terrorists have links, believe it or not., to other terrorists. look the list goes on and on. Im tired as otherwise id be giving references to tehse statements. Your opinion is based on ignorance of the facts. Last I checked America was teh land of teh freedom, how dare you think freedom is something that only people born int he USA are intitiled to. We are all children of God, we are brothers and sisters. Iraqi's deserve freedom. The strong have a moral obligation to protect the weak. What if our countries rolled over and let the Axis march all over the globe because "we" dont get involved in WW2. I know for there would be at least a couple of million who wouldnt have the gospel. At least a billion who would be living under tyrrany. There would be almost no Jews. The generations of my family have been fighting for freedom for hundreds of years. I hope i can when I finish my education as well(the military is realy hard to et into here). i believe in freedom. I believe in agency and the chance to exercise it. I believe the gospel will go forth till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime and sounded in every ear.
That wont happen while people are opressed. I thank President Bush for having the courage to stand for something, even when against the odds. Thank goodness for that man forsaking popularity to do what is right.

Do you hear the people sing
Lost in the valley of the night?
It is the music of a people
Who are climbing to the light.

For the wretched of the earth
There is a flame that never dies.
Even the darkest night will end
And the sun will rise.

They will live again in freedom
In the garden of the Lord.
They will walk behind the plough-share,
They will put away the sword.
The chain will be broken
And all men will have their reward.

Will you join in our crusade?
Who will be strong and stand with me?
Somewhere beyond the barricade
Is there a world you long to see?
Do you hear the people sing?
Say, do you hear the distant drums?
It is the future that they bring
When tomorrow comes!

Will you join in our crusade?
Who will be strong and stand with me?
Somewhere beyond the barricade
Is there a world you long to see?
Do you hear the people sing?
Say, do you hear the distant drums?
It is the future that they bring
When tomorrow comes...
Tomorrow comes!



I hope the iraqi people can say as the old negro spiritual
Free at last
Free at last
Thank God almighty we are free at last

[lundbaekcaptain of 1,000]

Be careful about accusing me of being less patriotic. None of you frequenting this site knows where I am coming from. I'm not about to post my resumé here, but my particular repertoire of experiences, observations, investigations, meetings and discussions over the past 68 years, 12 of them actually living and working in various European countries, some assignments in the mid-East, and 3 clandesting missions in East Germany in the '60's have forced me to conclude that the USA is in the hands of "secret combinations" who seek to destroy the USA in order to grease the skids for their planned world socialist dictatorship. Their desired world government can come together really only after the Christian United States is out of the way. The rest of the world could probably be federated any time now, but a vital, economically strong, Christian United States would have at its disposal the spiritual and material force to prohibit a worldwide satanic dictator from winning his battle. With America free and at large, Satan's schemes will at best be only partially successful. I think that puts me in the same camp with such people as Ezra Taft Benson, W. Cleon Skousen, Admiral Chester Ward, Congressman Ron Paul, Prof. Carroll Quigley, Gary Allen, and Ken Bowers, among others well known to most of you on this site.

[lundbaekcaptain of 1,000]

I think it is very important for Americans to understand that foreign aid and nation building, like welfare assistance, is unconstitutional. Ezra Taft Benson and H. Veraln Anderson are two General Authorities who have made this very clear in their writings and talks. Historical record supports the view that the U.S. Constitution forbids welfare assistance to individuals, groups, regions, and foreign nations. This is because the Constitution gives the FedGov authority to do only 20 things which are clearly spelled out, and welfare is not one of them. And I realize that Congress and the Judicial Branch have ignored this for decades, especially since the Butler Case decided by Justice Roberts, who was a true FDR croney, during FDR's 2nd term.

According to the Tenth Amendment, “All powers not specifically delegated to the Congress of the United States by this Constitution, nor prohibited to the states by this Constitution, are reserved to the states or to the people.”, or put another way, prohibited to the FedGov. I think that Thomas Jefferson, Samuel Adams, and James Madison made this point, but apparently not forcefully enough.

I realize the idea of building up other nations and helping people in other nations attain the same freedoms Americans are supposed to have sounds nice, but I think if one were to carefully read Ezra Taft Benson's "An Enemy Hath Done This", H. Verlan Andersen's "The Bood of Mormon and the Constitution" and/or Christopher Bentley's "The Hidden Things of Darkness", one would realize that although any individual or group has the right to give of their own time, energy and resources to help any other person or group of people, nobody has the right to compel others to participate in that effort, not even by unanimous vote.

Some may disapprove of adherence to constitutional principles, especially when doing so is inconvenient or seemingly unfair, but to my knowledge no Prophet has not yet advised that we are no longer bound by the following commandments:

D&C 98:6: Therefore, I, the Lord, justify you, and your brethren of my church, in befriending that law which is the constitutional law of the land.

D&C 101:77: According to the laws and constitution of the people, which I have suffered to be established, and should be maintained for the rights and protection of all flesh...80: And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose...

D&C 109:54: ...may those principles, which were so honorably and nobly defended, namely the Constitution of our land, by our fathers, be established forever.

D&C 134:1: We believe that governments are instituted of God for the benefit of man, and that he holds men accountable for their acts in relation to them, both in making laws and administering them for the good and safety of society.

[tnerbcaptain of 10]

you seem to have ignored the evidence.

[prewcaptain of 100]

The evidence to justify ourselves to become evil ourselves?

There was a play that I read about a lawmaker that the king wanted to bribe. Because he refused to concede to law breaking that the king wanted to do; the king sent him to prison. (I wish that I can remember the play name. I am just paraphrasing what I can remember.) Anyway, a friend of this law maker was asking him why he didn't side with the king. The man replied that as he is hunting down the devil, the devil is knocking down the laws. If he also knocks down the laws as he hunts the devil, what will happen if the devil all of a sudden turns around and start chasing him. What law will he hide behind if all the laws are knocked down?

All I remember about reading the play is this excellent point. So, is it better to break the law to help others or is it better to obey the law when helping others?

Paul Rew

[prewcaptain of 100]

Ohh, Yes.
Now I remember. The play is called 'A man for all seasons'. Don't ask me to remember the auther.

Paul Rew

[sbenardcaptain of 100]

There is simply NO scriptural foundation for the War in Iraq.

There is also NO Constitutional justification for the War in Iraq. The US Constitution gives the power to declare war ONLY to Congress. NO such declaration was made!
No power in the Consitution can be ceded to another branch of government. That would be comparable to someone hiring Michael Jordan to play basketball for $30 million a year, and Michael later sends in a teenager to play in his place instead, but still wants the $30 million.
The whole purpose for the balance of powers and responsibilities in the Constitution was to prevent the very abuses that are now occuring. The Founders did NOT want a President to EVER have the power to declare war.

The Lord himself said in D&C 98:5-7
5 And that law of the land which is constitutional, supporting that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges, belongs to all mankind, and is justifiable before me.
6 Therefore, I, the Lord, justify you, and your brethren of my church, in befriending that law which is the constitutional law of the land;
7 And as pertaining to law of man, whatsoever is more or less than this, cometh of evil. (emphasis mine)

How could the Lord be more clear? If it isn't constitutional, it "cometh of evil". For something to be Constitutional, it must abide by the principles in the document, no? Personally, I don't believe it is possible to be truly patriotic and NOT believe in the divine influence of the Consitution. So who is really the patriot here? Certainly the true patriots are those who believe in and abide by the principles embodied in the Constitution.

The best explanation the scriptural lessons is in this thread:

http://www.latterdayconservative.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=93

I suggest you read and pray about it. The Lord put that there for OUR generation, NOT the Nephites. They never even saw the Book of Mormon. If we refuse to listen to the lessons he put there for our benefit, we will make the same mistakes that the Nephites did.

The Lord even tells us in those verses (see the above link to the other thread) what He will do if we start wars that are NOT defensive in nature. Those promises/curses from the Lord should be enough to literally shake us to the bones!

There is also a good military reason for fighting wars defensively:

1) In an offensive military action, the ONLY advantage is the element of surprise. If the victory isn't immediate, the advantage then changes to the defense.
2) Fighting defensively always has a distinct advantage in that the defensive fighters know the terrain, know the people, and have the support of the local population, who will help them, support them, feed them, and provide shelter and hiding places for them.
The Lord knew this when he commanded us to NEVER initiate a war (see D&C 98:22-37).

It is important to remember that NO Iraqis were on the airplanes that hit the twin towers on Sept 11, and neither Saddam, nor the Iraqi people have ever attacked or even threatened to attack the United States. It has also been estimated that approximately 60,000 Iraqi's have died in the war that has compelled them to be free.

There is something fundamentally hypocritical about forcing someone to become democratic. The Founders taught that only a righteous people could maintain the type of government they established.

The Iraqi Constitution is flawed from its very foundation. It is automatically changed every time the legislature passes a new law that contradicts their constitution. It has none of the protections that the US Constitution has like:

Freedom of assembly
Freedom of religion
Freedom of the press
The right to own and control private property
...and on and on.

Just having a document that calls itself a "Constitution" isn't enough to truly establish lasting freedom.

The Lord's prophets have also taught that the only way freedom can be maintained is by serving Christ. Otherwise, freedom will be fleeting and temporary. Can the Iraqis be a peaceful people for long when they don't believe in or allow the preaching of the gospel of the Prince of Peace?

[sbenardcaptain of 100]

Ohh, Yes.
Now I remember. The play is called 'A man for all seasons'. Don't ask me to remember the auther.

Paul Rew

I also liked the movie, "Beckett". It also underscores the importance of always adhering to principle, regardless of how inconvenient it becomes.

[tnerbcaptain of 10]

Firstly, the consitition is changed quite regularly, there called amendments, i believe the first amendment is the bill of rights(not entirely sure). Secondly, i dont believe a formal declaration of war was made, nor does it need to be. A formal declaration of war was not made in Vietnam by the US or by us(australia) or any of the other countries fighting there. As far as im aware the US law provides for the American President to deploy a certain number of troops (including but not limited to the USN and the USMC) without approval from congress. So no deploying troops for offensive actions is not illegal if it falls into the criteria set out (number of troops involved etc etc). Yes the action is whats called per-emptive and it falls into the category of...believe it or not...conflict, not war(though im sure the experience for the soldier is the same). As for scriptual precedence...after all our nations both pratice common law which is based on precedence. The Old Testament is full of them. In fact last time I checked Joshua is essentially one big pre-emptive action. You need to eb aware that first the USA is not the only country on earth, there are lots of countries in the america's to start with (do not they also fall into the same category spoken of in Nephi about independence etc etc, does any one remember Simon Bolivar?) and if as you always seem to imply that the USA is somehoe divine in nature does it not then have the moral obligation to ensure freedom for all....and once again you all seam to have skipped over that fact yes, Chemical and biological weapons have been discovered, yes vidence has been found that Saddam Hussein was planning terrorist attacks on the free world as soon as sanctions were lifted, yes he was supporting terrorist organisations and yes he is a tyrant/murder/participant in genocide anmd every other eveil thing you cant hink of. As for the Legality again....under previous resolutions the Coalition (let us remember that the USA is not the only country in Iraq) did have authority to remove saddam. Also as far as im aware the US congress passed a bill on 11/10/2002 authorising force (actually i think you guys right it as 10/11/2002) if saddam didnt comply with UN resolution 1441...which he didnt. Look the justifications go on for pages and pages...but the bottom line is this, the man was evil, he was planning evil, he was a localised Hitler, how can you sit on your moral high ground and just watch as he butchered hundreds of thousands of people and planned to butcher hundreds of thousands more. It like watching you neighbour being raped and then sitting back sayin well its not in my yard, then watching the rapist mover to the enxt house and doing the same thing, and yet you still sit back and do nothing, just watch adn obsrve, say how terrible it is but how you cant do anything because its not in your yard. "O i cant be trespassing its against the law, ill just watch this tragey unfold." If it was illegal as you always claiming, then why isnt the man in jail, because as many people as there who want it to eb illegal, who dont like the Presidnet, who are left wing socialists, communists, isolationist etc etc calling for it, the simple fact is, there is no evidence, the action wasnt illegal, at best dubious, but not illegal. Thanks goodness for President George W. Bush and his moral courage to do what is right. Id invade hell itself if that man was leading the charge.

[prewcaptain of 100]

Welcome to the Latter-day Conservative Forum. In one corner of the boxing ring we have a person who believes in the "League of Nations" as suppreme law of the land and believes in what the USA is doing is right. In the other corner of the boxing ring we have a person who doesn't believe in the "League of Nations" as suppreme law of the land and doesn't believe what the USA is doing is right.
And there they go, a right and left and right and left...

"And it came to pass that the people assembled themselves together throughout the land, every man according to his mind, whether it were for or against Amlici, in separate bodies, having much dispute and wonderful contentions one with another.
And thus they did assemble themselves together to cast in their voices concerning the matter..." (Alma2:5-6)

It just came to me as I was reading this topic in the forum. How funny!

Paul Rew

[79scholarcaptain of 100]

The raw physical evidences of 9/11 indicate that this argument seems irrelevant ... because it suggests that the Bush Admin planned the destruction of the WTC towers ... an inside job to frame Saddam first and then Osama with flawed intelligence reports.

BYU professor on the towers:
http://latterdayconservative.com/forum/ ... .php?t=105

Items to consider:
- why was WTC7, the 3rd tower, not covered at all on the media?? It completely collapsed 5 hours later although there was no plane, no fire, and no debris.
- why was molten steel found underneath all 3 buildings?? steel melts at 3000 F, whereas jet fuel melts at a max of 1700 F
- if the towers fell by 'controlled demolition' ... then who has the access to both execute it and suppress evidence from all media and investigations??
- for more evidences see http://www.loosechange911.com

My point is: if WE did 9/11, then we don't belong in Iraq.

[Shoemakercaptain of 100]

"My point is: if WE did 9/11, then we don't belong in Iraq".

Yes I agree, that is the point! And might I further add ditto with Iran or Syria and others Bush and his neo-con buddies have their sights on!

[79scholarcaptain of 100]

All the "incorrect" intelligence and inflated terrorism fears that we hear all the time (particularly from FOX) has given me new light on Matthew 24 where Jesus is speaking of the last days:

"there shall be wars and rumors of wars."

(though we're still quite a ways off until the 2nd coming - gospel not preached to all nations yet)


semi-related sub-debate:
I personally hope we STAY in Iraq for the following reasons:
- less likely to go after Iran & others
- American people gradually become more and more dissatisfied with Straussians (Bush Admin), more frustrated with corrupt news, and more likely to wake up about 9/11 and news propaganda
- less likely to elect another Straussian president

[WYp8riotcaptain of 1,000]

US: Rumsfeld seeks addition $65 billion to continue war far into future. Yahoo
News 2006 May 17
http://m1e.net/c?39351502-c9uyInmfyhn7E ... yXxEXwCU7I

[BrianM]

My point is: if WE did 9/11, then we don't belong in Iraq

whether or not the government was involved in 9/11 has nothing to do with Iraq. We went to Afghanistan because of 9/11...

The founding fathers never would have gone into Iraq, they warned against foreign wars. Here are some quotes from Cleon Skousen about how bad the Iraq war is...


In some previous discussions, some individuals on this forum tried to cast doubt on my statements that W. Cleon Skousen taught that, based on principle, we should NOT have gone to war in Iraq.

I happened to film a meeting in which Dr. Skousen spoke to some of his relatives and they spoke a little bit about the war. These are Dr. Skousen’s exact words:

(This is from a filmed conversation between Dr. W. Cleon Skousen and some of his relatives)

Richard Bentley: What are your feelings about the Iraq war?

Dr. Skousen: The Founding Fathers never would have done it. The Founding Fathers said don't ever invade another country to straighten it out. Because it will fail, and all you'll do is drain our blood and treasure out, and it will not succeed. And so, I wanted President Bush to be a success and the next thing I know he's declaring war on Iraq!

Richard: So, do you feel it was kind of an unconstitutional war?

Dr. Skousen: oh ya, ya. I knew that he [W. Bush] had orders from somebody to start that war. Because he announced that we were gonna go in, and it was very unpopular. And we have a controlled press and they just kept hammering "this is the thing to do" and "this is important, we gotta pull Hussein down," and He was, he was just a horrible bruit, BUT! The Founders said don't go into other countries to solve their problem, make them solve it themselves. And let everyone know that they've gotta solve it themselves...


Dr. Skousen: ...they are wicked men, and the ones that ordered the war, which is the International Banking Group.

Richard: They ordered the war?

Dr. Skousen: ya! sure, oh that's where they make money, gotta build planes, gotta build tanks; gotta spend money like it was water. and that's what we've done, going deeper and deeper into debt, and we're not even blinking about it! people say "oh, it's a war so we gotta spend it" that's what these international bankers thrive on.

Richard: So they were the ones that ordered the war.

Dr. Skousen: They always do.


Dr. Skousen: Think of the boys that have died.

Richard: Ya, that makes me sad.

Dr. Skousen: It's unnecessary, It is absolutely unnecessary! because there are two religious groups in Iraq and now that their dictator is gone they can fight again, like they have been for hundreds of years.

Richard: Now it's a civil war.

Dr. Skousen: And each one of them wants to annihilate one another; that's part of their religion. This damnable religion that was dreamed up by Mohammed, uninspired in every respect, it makes murderers out of people and suicide bombers out of people. It's a terrible religion.

(From there Dr. Skousen went on to discuss some very wonderful things about the Church, and the Saints in these lasts days, and Christ… to listen to the complete discussion download it here: http://www.latterdayconservative.com/au ... 9_2005.mp3 )

I am anxious to see what principles others are using to show why they support the US going into Iraq. No doubt that Dr. Skousen was against the war in Iraq, and he based this on correct and true principles.

[lundbaekcaptain of 1,000]

I think tnerb expressed very well some of the principles others are using to show why they support the US going into Iraq. As always, Dr. Skousen bases his positions of issues on his excellent understanding of the US Constitution and the intentions of the "Founders" who wrote the Declaration of Independence and later codified its principles in the Constitution.

However, I do understand that many Americans, especially the more self-righteous ones, feel strongly that we are somehow obligated to sort out other countries. Fair enough, that approach does some people some good. But they would be far better off if they sorted themselves out. For what it's worth, I have spent about a year in the mid-East, 6 months among both Jews and Arabs in Israel and 6 months in Saudi, Libya and Bahrain, and I think I have some feel for their cultures. They can be great performers for reporters and cameramen.

And I fully agree with Dr. Skousen that, in my words now, President Bush & Co., like his recent predecessors, is controlled by puppet masters, or modern Gadiantons, who wanted that war at this time for their own gain and to suit their NWO agenda. I have also heard Dr. Skousen say these things, as well as others who have reinforced my own nearly identical conclusions. I happen to be in the middle of "America's Secret Establishment" by Antony Sutton, reading just today his report on how wealthy powers in America contributed enormous amounts of money, technology and material to both the Nazi German and the Communist Russian war machines and industries - at the same time. It's not new to me, but I've come to appreciate Sutton's research and writings.

Any one of us has the right to try to contribute our own personal resources and energy for the betterment of peoples' lives anywhere, but we do not have the right to force others to join with us in that effort. Review Ezra Taft Benson's "The Proper Role of Government". Few people understand that.

[tnerbcaptain of 10]

I dont know what concerns me more, everyone attitude to freedom, or the fact everyone here seems to think anything Cleon Skousen says is gospel and that you all seem to think the world is run in some kind of dark room with all the worlds leaders gleefully wringing their hands at teh prospect of war..to quote another i saw on this site...were you all born this way or did you all do drugs

[lundbaekcaptain of 1,000]

I also am concerned about people's attitude toward freedom. To me, freedom is the right to the life that God gave me plus what I am able to make out of it without infringing on the God given rights of anyone else. For the sake of this discussion, I'll add that it includes the right to own and control property which I have acquired honestly, or without infringing on the God given rights of anyone else in its acquisition. According to the Golden Rule, the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the original intent of the US Constitution, freedom does not include the right to (in other words, prohibits) my taking property of another for my own use, regardless of my state. It also does not include forcing another person to work for me against his/her will or fight my battles for me. Nor do they permit a group of people imposing via government such wants of demands on others. The proper function of government is limited only to those spheres of activity within which the individual citizen has the right to act . There is one simple test of this. Do I as an individual have a right to use force upon my neighbor to accomplish any goal? If I do have such a right, then I may delegate that power to my government to exercise on my behalf. If I do not have that right as an individual, then I cannot delegate it to government, and I cannot ask my government to perform the act for me. I recommend studying "The Proper Role of Government" by Ezra Taft Benson, at http://www.latterdayconservative.com/mo ... rticleid=1

I'd be interested in how others here view freedom; what it means to each of you.

[lundbaekcaptain of 1,000]

Tnerb, to suggest that any of us use drugs, even jokingly, is at best criticism without evidence of error.

That some of us "seem to think the world is run in some kind of dark room with all the worlds leaders gleefully wringing their hands at teh prospect of war" is a result of the opportunity of experiences, research and study that may not be available to you and others.

As for our respect for W. Cleon Skousen and his views of our "awful situation", it is the result of considerable association with him for many of us, and awareness of his achievements for others.

Please be more specific in your criticisms so we can respond adequately.

[WYp8riotcaptain of 1,000]

I appreciate the understanding of the Proper Role of Government that users here have. I realize they are the few and outnumbered, yet it is certainly pearls of wisdom and understanding of correct principles that relate to morality and freedom.

I have come to realize many are offended by the truth if they are not truely seeking it and have allready determined in there minds what truth is.

"One of the most fundamental principles of mormonism is truth, from wherever it may come" -Joseph Smith

This is the education that the founders stated must be taught in order for freedom to survive.

THE BASIC FREEDOM EDUCATION http://www.correctprinciples.org

[79scholarcaptain of 100]

to tnerb:

Yes, the world (or US) is run in some kind of dark room with all the worlds leaders gleefully wringing their hands at the prospect of war.


Sociologist G. William Domhoff on the social cohesion of the rich & powerful elite, a study of the Bohemian Grove and other secret clubs:
http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesameri ... grove.html

A spy's first-hand detailed report of the "dark room" in 1989
http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesameri ... e_spy.html


Why are they wringing their hands at the prospect of war? Because it means $ and power. Consider Larry Silverstein, who gained 500 million from blowing up his own WTC7 building on 9/11, and also purchased the 2 towers for 3.2 billion (just weeks before 9/11), and gained 8.1 billion from insurance claims. Just look at who benefits from this war, and it's all the rich powerful elite. All of them.

[tnerbcaptain of 10]

OK. fair enuff the drugs thing was litle out of line. It came from frustration and the laughter it brought when i read it(on hte other partof this forum). Obviously if your living the WOW then the only thing your high on is life. Anyway, Cleon Skousen is not the be all end all of opinion and information. He had a lot of good works. I enjoyed his talk on the atonement (thou i didnt agree with all of it) but to my point. You all seam to just breeze over the overwhelming evidence that contradicts your claims, then try and back it up with snippet of a quote from someone else. Anyone can research anything to prove their point. If my experiences with academia are anything to go by, research can be manipulated to say whatever you want, so fair enuff. However Osama Bin Laden has twice come out and said, "the world tradae centres were me, all me, and no one else. I was responsible, it was all al qeada." you all seem to have skipped over that point as well.
p.s. Isolationism always hurts everybody. you can stay in a hole and let the outside world do what it wants, otherwise the outside world will very quickly find its way into your hole.

[79scholarcaptain of 100]

Excellent point! You're just like me ... I never eat someone's words as doctrine (unless it's the prophet). If we did we'd never discover the truth because we'd never search for it. It becomes critical for us in these theories (they remain as theories until proven in some way) to not overlook any information, yet not only the facts but the motives and beneficiaries of the facts.

There are a few likelihoods regarding the Osama Bin Laden videos:
1- it may be a staged double: one video shows him writing with his right hand (he's left handed) and wearing a gold ring (forbidden by Islamic law).
2- it's in Bin Laden's best interest to *claim* he did 9/11 for the sake of winning support of Muslims to fight against America
3- it's also very likely Bin Laden could be playing along ... after all ... we haven't found him, and according to Straussian philosophy, it's in the Bush Admin's best interest to NOT catch Bin Laden (because then you need to find a new bad guy, and they aren't that easy to setup). So long as Bin Laden is "out there," it serves as an ideal tool to scare Americans into supporting the war.

I don't know whether Osama participated or not in 9/11, but from what I gather the US is certainly involved (at minimum in hiding the evidences), and as one studies Leo Strauss and his White House followers, one will find that they are the prime suspects for planning the operation (with likely support from other departments).

[79scholarcaptain of 100]

Also to tnerb, I found these interesting articles:


Osama Bin Laden claiming on 9/16/01 he was not involved in 911
http://www2.jsonline.com/news/nat/sep01 ... denial.asp
(summary)
In the statement, read out by an Al-Jazeera announcer, bin Laden said that he was used to the United States accusing him every time "its many enemies strike at it."
**********************


Small article on wartime accusatory propaganda (written in Oct 2001 when all believed Osama did 911)
http://www.ucsc.edu/currents/terrorist_ ... ganda.html
(summary)
Wartime propaganda is a critical element of military strategy and political success, and it warrants scrutiny by a vigilant public, according to persuasion expert Anthony Pratkanis.
......
"Projection works--that is what is so disturbing about it," said Pratkanis. "Making false accusations works in our everyday lives just as well as it does during times of war."
**********************

In conclusion: how can we trust either side's words? Framing, projection, and denial are too common in propaganda wars.

[tnerbcaptain of 10]

Indeed propaganda is a powerful tool and to be honest if there's one thing the bush administration cant be accused of it is effective propaganda. They are dead set useless at it. The media seams to be dominated by the left wing and has a definate biased interest in ht eoperations in Iraq failing....because it makes better news. A careful study will show that the majority of Iraq's provinces are doing reasonabley well and are getting better and better everyday. There are roughly three provinces that just arent working out. This is where most of the violence occurs. The media hardly ever reports the success stories. The media is rely the one who controls information and therfore the thoughts and opinions of the masses. I think the fox network is about the only network that reports the occasional good news story...and we all know they are fairly right leaning. Anyway its late, so im gonna go to bed, but ill be back to debate again....i shall return.....hehehe.

[79scholarcaptain of 100]

That is precisely what I once believed ...
and then I discovered the real ways of the mass media ...

First and foremost, the mass media is a business, catering to their sponsors and NOT to the people. Consider the following:
- No news network ever covered the mysterious collapse of WTC7 on 9/11
- No news network ever questioned the government's 9/11 explanation despite the numerous eyewitness claims, survivor's testimonies, firemen's accounts, and complete lack of physical evidence (planes disappeared) behind the story.

Now consider the following:
- Both Bush and Kerry are members of Skull & Bones (in Bush's 1999 autobiography, Bush admits this. The Bush family have been involved in this secret society since Prescott Bush). In other words, Bush and Kerry are sworn to protect each other ... like blood-brothers.
- Bush often vacations with Clinton, and the Bush's consider them part of the extended family.
- Senators and leaders will gather at elite clubs (such as the Pacific Union Club and Bohemian Grove) and socialize regardless of left or right

see this:
http://latterdayconservative.com/forum/ ... .php?t=108
If they can get you to focus on current Iraq, or the 2008 presidential campaign, then they've already won.

It's all a WWF match. They're not really wrestling. Whether you're a FOX fan or a gayBC fan, they'll still lead you to believe that big bad Osama is hiding in a cave and toppled the (three) towers.

[Shoemakercaptain of 100]

Last night I turned on the education channel and Frontline was on. Boy, was I ever surprised to here the truth on all the lies and fabrications from top officials on justifying the war on Iraq. They admit to lying; they're not hiding it in this documentary. It's entitled: "The Dark Side". Go to:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/darkside/

[Shoemakercaptain of 100]

"The Dark Side"
Five days after 9/11 Vice President Cheney talked about fighting terrorism and stated: "…We have to work the dark side, if you will. Spend time in the shadows of the intelligence world. …" Here, intelligence officials and others offer thoughts on Cheney's use of that phrase, as well as the impact of 9/11 on the vice president.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/darkside/