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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

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Moss Man wrote:
If you want net blessings, that's your business.


Who gets the remaining part of the gross blessing after subtracting and bestowing the net?


They are redistributed equally amongst those who pay gross
The truth is incontrovertible, malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end; there it is.
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Postby »

You're a Pharisee mate

So much of this post is rubbish and you know it.

prove me herewith...you KNOW that was god talking to the levites

freedomfighter wrote:
Fort Nine wrote:Anyone paying tithing on gross is throwing money away. Do you actually think the Lord wants you to count taxed money--money you never see, money taken by force (illegally as it pertains to Federal income tax)--as your "interest" or "surplus?" You pay tithing on the money you earn and put to living expenses. And pay it on a tax return, if you get one. Tithing your taxed money is like paying tithing on what the mob takes from you.

See, here we go again. Other than God, himself, just who gives a rat's butt how you pay tithing? Who are you trying to convince, those that know otherwise because of the spirit telling them to pay on gross? Do you want our blessings? Do you want to rob blessings from those who pay on their gross? If you want net blessings, that's your business.

We keep the commandments because we are promised eternal life if we do, right?
We endure to the end for the same reason, right?
We pay tithing for the same reason, right?
We acquire faith, hope and charity for the same reason, right?

Why? Because it is labeled "obedience", that's why. God expects obedience from his children. Those that do not, don't get the prize, it's as simple as that.

So why try to cut corners? That's a quick way to acquire the terrestrial kingdom at best.

God says "prove me herewith". Do we believe it or not? Or do we make up our own rules and expect the same results?

Good luck!

BTW, I was one that thought the same as you until I received witness that I was wrong, so then I started paying on the gross, and then more lights came on. Very well worth it, too.
The shelf said enough. AussieOi@hotmail.com
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Postby »

Moss Man wrote:
If you want net blessings, that's your business.


Who gets the remaining part of the gross blessing after subtracting and bestowing the net?


http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1 ... g?lang=eng

1 And now it came to pass that when Jesus had told these things he expounded them unto the multitude; and he did expound all things unto them, both great and small.
2 And he saith: These scriptures, which ye had not with you, the Father commanded that I should give unto you; for it was wisdom in him that they should be given unto future generations.

Third Nephi The Book of Nephi the Son of Nephi, Who Was the Son of Helaman
Chapter 24

The Lord’s messenger will prepare the way for the Second Coming—Christ will sit in judgment—Israel is commanded to pay tithes and offerings—A book of remembrance is kept—Compare Malachi 3. About A.D. 34.

1 And it came to pass that he commanded them that they should write the words which the Father had given unto Malachi, which he should tell unto them. And it came to pass that after they were written he expounded them. And these are the words which he did tell unto them, saying: Thus said the Father unto Malachi—Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me, and the Lord whom ye seek shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in; behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of Hosts.
2 But who may abide the day of his coming, and who shall stand when he appeareth? For he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fuller’s soap.
3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness.
4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the Lord, as in the days of old, and as in former years.
5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger, and fear not me, saith the Lord of Hosts.
6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me and I will return unto you, saith the Lord of Hosts. But ye say: Wherein shall we return?
8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say: Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
9 Ye are cursed with a curse, for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in my house; and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of Hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the fields, saith the Lord of Hosts.
12 And all nations shall call you blessed, for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the Lord of Hosts.
13 Your words have been stout against me, saith the Lord. Yet ye say: What have we spoken against thee?
14 Ye have said: It is vain to serve God, and what doth it profit that we have kept his ordinances and that we have walked mournfully before the Lord of Hosts?
15 And now we call the proud happy; yea, they that work wickedness are set up; yea, they that tempt God are even delivered.
16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another, and the Lord hearkened and heard; and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.
17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of Hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
18 Then shall ye return and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

The words of Malachi apply to us in our day.

...the law of tithing is not a remote Old Testament practice, but a commandment directly from the Savior to the people of our day. The Lord reaffirmed that law in modern revelation, commanding his people to pay “one-tenth of all their interest annually” and declaring that “this shall be a standing law unto them forever” (D&C 119:4).

Listen to Dallin Oaks from 1994

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1 ... g?lang=eng
[i]CRITICAL THINKING IS QUITE COMPATIBLE WITH THINKING "OUT-OF-THE-BOX", https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OLPL5p0fMg

REALITY...IS NOTHING MORE THAN FANTASY IN ACTION, AUTHORED BY SOMEONE SUFFERING FROM FANTASY....ME!
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Postby »

AussieOi wrote:You're a Pharisee mate

So much of this post is rubbish and you know it.

prove me herewith...you KNOW that was god talking to the levites This is half right! But you don't know that. Listen to Dallin H Oaks' GC talk from 1994.

freedomfighter wrote:
Fort Nine wrote:Anyone paying tithing on gross is throwing money away. Do you actually think the Lord wants you to count taxed money--money you never see, money taken by force (illegally as it pertains to Federal income tax)--as your "interest" or "surplus?" You pay tithing on the money you earn and put to living expenses. And pay it on a tax return, if you get one. Tithing your taxed money is like paying tithing on what the mob takes from you.

See, here we go again. Other than God, himself, just who gives a rat's butt how you pay tithing? Who are you trying to convince, those that know otherwise because of the spirit telling them to pay on gross? Do you want our blessings? Do you want to rob blessings from those who pay on their gross? If you want net blessings, that's your business.

We keep the commandments because we are promised eternal life if we do, right?
We endure to the end for the same reason, right?
We pay tithing for the same reason, right?
We acquire faith, hope and charity for the same reason, right?

Why? Because it is labeled "obedience", that's why. God expects obedience from his children. Those that do not, don't get the prize, it's as simple as that.

So why try to cut corners? That's a quick way to acquire the terrestrial kingdom at best.

God says "prove me herewith". Do we believe it or not? Or do we make up our own rules and expect the same results?

Good luck!

BTW, I was one that thought the same as you until I received witness that I was wrong, so then I started paying on the gross, and then more lights came on. Very well worth it, too.
[i]CRITICAL THINKING IS QUITE COMPATIBLE WITH THINKING "OUT-OF-THE-BOX", https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OLPL5p0fMg

REALITY...IS NOTHING MORE THAN FANTASY IN ACTION, AUTHORED BY SOMEONE SUFFERING FROM FANTASY....ME!
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Postby »

freedomfighter wrote:
Moss Man wrote:
If you want net blessings, that's your business.


Who gets the remaining part of the gross blessing after subtracting and bestowing the net?


http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1 ... g?lang=eng

1 And now it came to pass that when Jesus had told these things he expounded them unto the multitude; and he did expound all things unto them, both great and small.
2 And he saith: These scriptures, which ye had not with you, the Father commanded that I should give unto you; for it was wisdom in him that they should be given unto future generations.

Third Nephi The Book of Nephi the Son of Nephi, Who Was the Son of Helaman
Chapter 24

The Lord’s messenger will prepare the way for the Second Coming—Christ will sit in judgment—Israel is commanded to pay tithes and offerings—A book of remembrance is kept—Compare Malachi 3. About A.D. 34.

1 And it came to pass that he commanded them that they should write the words which the Father had given unto Malachi, which he should tell unto them. And it came to pass that after they were written he expounded them. And these are the words which he did tell unto them, saying: Thus said the Father unto Malachi—Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me, and the Lord whom ye seek shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in; behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of Hosts.
2 But who may abide the day of his coming, and who shall stand when he appeareth? For he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fuller’s soap.
3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness.
4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the Lord, as in the days of old, and as in former years.
5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger, and fear not me, saith the Lord of Hosts.
6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me and I will return unto you, saith the Lord of Hosts. But ye say: Wherein shall we return?
8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say: Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
9 Ye are cursed with a curse, for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in my house; and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of Hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the fields, saith the Lord of Hosts.
12 And all nations shall call you blessed, for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the Lord of Hosts.
13 Your words have been stout against me, saith the Lord. Yet ye say: What have we spoken against thee?
14 Ye have said: It is vain to serve God, and what doth it profit that we have kept his ordinances and that we have walked mournfully before the Lord of Hosts?
15 And now we call the proud happy; yea, they that work wickedness are set up; yea, they that tempt God are even delivered.
16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another, and the Lord hearkened and heard; and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.
17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of Hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
18 Then shall ye return and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

The words of Malachi apply to us in our day.

...the law of tithing is not a remote Old Testament practice, but a commandment directly from the Savior to the people of our day. The Lord reaffirmed that law in modern revelation, commanding his people to pay “one-tenth of all their interest annually” and declaring that “this shall be a standing law unto them forever” (D&C 119:4).

Listen to Dallin Oaks from 1994

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1 ... g?lang=eng


I don't understand your response to my quote. I know tithing is a law and I've covenanted to obey it. I was asking a (sort of) facetious question that tried to remain congruent with your "net versus gross" blessing claim.
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

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Mate, this church has $40-60b cash in the bank

it is believed to pull in $6-7b cash a year.

it uses favoured companies to build these great and spacious buildings.


in the last 30 years it has given to charity under $400m plus about $800m in lds labour.



If you can't figure out why Jesus probably thought to mention the Malachi thing I can't help you.

they were probably doing the same back then too.



freedomfighter wrote:You're a Pharisee mate

So much of this post is rubbish and you know it.

prove me herewith...you KNOW that was god talking to the levites This is half right! But you don't know that. Listen to Dallin H Oaks' GC talk from 1994.

freedomfighter wrote:
Fort Nine wrote:Anyone paying tithing on gross is throwing money away. Do you actually think the Lord wants you to count taxed money--money you never see, money taken by force (illegally as it pertains to Federal income tax)--as your "interest" or "surplus?" You pay tithing on the money you earn and put to living expenses. And pay it on a tax return, if you get one. Tithing your taxed money is like paying tithing on what the mob takes from you.

See, here we go again. Other than God, himself, just who gives a rat's butt how you pay tithing? Who are you trying to convince, those that know otherwise because of the spirit telling them to pay on gross? Do you want our blessings? Do you want to rob blessings from those who pay on their gross? If you want net blessings, that's your business.

We keep the commandments because we are promised eternal life if we do, right?
We endure to the end for the same reason, right?
We pay tithing for the same reason, right?
We acquire faith, hope and charity for the same reason, right?

Why? Because it is labeled "obedience", that's why. God expects obedience from his children. Those that do not, don't get the prize, it's as simple as that.

So why try to cut corners? That's a quick way to acquire the terrestrial kingdom at best.

God says "prove me herewith". Do we believe it or not? Or do we make up our own rules and expect the same results?

Good luck!

BTW, I was one that thought the same as you until I received witness that I was wrong, so then I started paying on the gross, and then more lights came on. Very well worth it, too.
[/quote]
The shelf said enough. AussieOi@hotmail.com
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

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AussieOi wrote:Mate, this church has $40-60b cash in the bank

it is believed to pull in $6-7b cash a year.

it uses favoured companies to build these great and spacious buildings.


in the last 30 years it has given to charity under $400m plus about $800m in lds labour.



If you can't figure out why Jesus probably thought to mention the Malachi thing I can't help you.

they were probably doing the same back then too.



freedomfighter wrote:You're a Pharisee mate

So much of this post is rubbish and you know it.

prove me herewith...you KNOW that was god talking to the levites This is half right! But you don't know that. Listen to Dallin H Oaks' GC talk from 1994.

freedomfighter wrote:See, here we go again. Other than God, himself, just who gives a rat's butt how you pay tithing? Who are you trying to convince, those that know otherwise because of the spirit telling them to pay on gross? Do you want our blessings? Do you want to rob blessings from those who pay on their gross? If you want net blessings, that's your business.

We keep the commandments because we are promised eternal life if we do, right?
We endure to the end for the same reason, right?
We pay tithing for the same reason, right?
We acquire faith, hope and charity for the same reason, right?

Why? Because it is labeled "obedience", that's why. God expects obedience from his children. Those that do not, don't get the prize, it's as simple as that.

So why try to cut corners? That's a quick way to acquire the terrestrial kingdom at best.

God says "prove me herewith". Do we believe it or not? Or do we make up our own rules and expect the same results?

Good luck!

BTW, I was one that thought the same as you until I received witness that I was wrong, so then I started paying on the gross, and then more lights came on. Very well worth it, too.

So? Did you listen to the talk or not? I no longer am going to debate, argue or attempt to convince you of anything. Listen to the talk. If you don't want to, fine, but don't keep conveying worthless information when you could learn that Malachi's words are for us today.
[i]CRITICAL THINKING IS QUITE COMPATIBLE WITH THINKING "OUT-OF-THE-BOX", https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OLPL5p0fMg

REALITY...IS NOTHING MORE THAN FANTASY IN ACTION, AUTHORED BY SOMEONE SUFFERING FROM FANTASY....ME!
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

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I'm sorry. I do this on an ifone. I thought it was a talk, I thought read the 1994 talk. What am I missing in the audio that wasn't in the text.
So, what did he say that changes Sec 119. What am I missing here?
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

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Moss Man wrote:
If you want net blessings, that's your business.


Who gets the remaining part of the gross blessing after subtracting and bestowing the net?


In the first place God looks upon the heart. Years ago I was told that in the Bishop's handbook, it inferred that if a person felt that paying on the net was an honest tithe then it was acceptable. But the current handbook no longer provides this idea. But the question still remains, is it okay to pay on one's net income. I can't really answer that because the answer is still associated with God looking upon the heart.
I just know from personal experience that during a time I was paying on the net, I received a priesthood blessing from a brother that didn't know me from Adam...and in that blessing, out of the blue, I was instructed to pay a perfect tithing, and from that time forth I have payed on gross. And I have been greatly blessed. Those words really struck me...I had never heard it put that way...a perfect tithing.
So I guess for paying a perfect tithing, one can expect perfect blessings, better than net blessings, I may add.
[i]CRITICAL THINKING IS QUITE COMPATIBLE WITH THINKING "OUT-OF-THE-BOX", https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OLPL5p0fMg

REALITY...IS NOTHING MORE THAN FANTASY IN ACTION, AUTHORED BY SOMEONE SUFFERING FROM FANTASY....ME!
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

Postby »

Moss Man wrote:
freedomfighter wrote:
Who gets the remaining part of the gross blessing after subtracting and bestowing the net?


http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1 ... g?lang=eng

1 And now it came to pass that when Jesus had told these things he expounded them unto the multitude; and he did expound all things unto them, both great and small.
2 And he saith: These scriptures, which ye had not with you, the Father commanded that I should give unto you; for it was wisdom in him that they should be given unto future generations.

Third Nephi The Book of Nephi the Son of Nephi, Who Was the Son of Helaman
Chapter 24

The Lord’s messenger will prepare the way for the Second Coming—Christ will sit in judgment—Israel is commanded to pay tithes and offerings—A book of remembrance is kept—Compare Malachi 3. About A.D. 34.

1 And it came to pass that he commanded them that they should write the words which the Father had given unto Malachi, which he should tell unto them. And it came to pass that after they were written he expounded them. And these are the words which he did tell unto them, saying: Thus said the Father unto Malachi—Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me, and the Lord whom ye seek shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in; behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of Hosts.
2 But who may abide the day of his coming, and who shall stand when he appeareth? For he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fuller’s soap.
3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness.
4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the Lord, as in the days of old, and as in former years.
5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger, and fear not me, saith the Lord of Hosts.
6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me and I will return unto you, saith the Lord of Hosts. But ye say: Wherein shall we return?
8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say: Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
9 Ye are cursed with a curse, for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in my house; and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of Hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the fields, saith the Lord of Hosts.
12 And all nations shall call you blessed, for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the Lord of Hosts.
13 Your words have been stout against me, saith the Lord. Yet ye say: What have we spoken against thee?
14 Ye have said: It is vain to serve God, and what doth it profit that we have kept his ordinances and that we have walked mournfully before the Lord of Hosts?
15 And now we call the proud happy; yea, they that work wickedness are set up; yea, they that tempt God are even delivered.
16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another, and the Lord hearkened and heard; and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.
17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of Hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
18 Then shall ye return and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

The words of Malachi apply to us in our day.

...the law of tithing is not a remote Old Testament practice, but a commandment directly from the Savior to the people of our day. The Lord reaffirmed that law in modern revelation, commanding his people to pay “one-tenth of all their interest annually” and declaring that “this shall be a standing law unto them forever” (D&C 119:4).

Listen to Dallin Oaks from 1994

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1 ... g?lang=eng


I don't understand your response to my quote. I know tithing is a law and I've covenanted to obey it. I was asking a (sort of) facetious question that tried to remain congruent with your "net versus gross" blessing claim.[/quote]
Since I figured it was a facetious question, a straight answer was withheld. Sorry.
[i]CRITICAL THINKING IS QUITE COMPATIBLE WITH THINKING "OUT-OF-THE-BOX", https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OLPL5p0fMg

REALITY...IS NOTHING MORE THAN FANTASY IN ACTION, AUTHORED BY SOMEONE SUFFERING FROM FANTASY....ME!
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

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What dis Oaks say that adds ANYthing to this discussion.

What made you decide to interpret "perfect tithe" one way or the other.

I'm not questioning what choice you made, father, how you came to believe that constituted a "perfect tithe"
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

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I spent most of the lesson time studying the tithing references in the D&C that were listed in the index.

I read section 119 as if I had never seen it before, and it looks to me like it meant "consecration" instead of what we think of as tithing. I had never seen it that way before. It was as if we are not really living the law of tithing if consecration isn't part of it, as if all our teaching about tithing is skewed because we don't understand what it really entails.

And the references that talk about not being burned when Jesus comes is because those people are sharing, they "have all things in common." It has nothing at all to do with giving ten percent of anything to anyone. I really think that when Jesus talks about "tithing" He is not looking at it as separate from consecration at all.

I am beginning to think that all of this going round and round and round again about net versus gross versus surplus is useless, because God may just view tithing as part of consecration and we are very skewed in our view of it. Is it possible that we cannot live the real law of tithing because it is intricately connected with consecration and when we try to sever that connection, we totally screw it up? Is it possible that we are arguing over something that is nonexistent in the actual law Jesus intended us to have?
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

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Mate you get it!

Do you understand what drjme is saying when he says god doesn't want 10%...he wants everything!

And the Pharisees living the "perfect tithe" but missing the point.

And widows mite.

You have to connect the dots from consecration, which failed, to tithing, and its very simple objective.

Its just a law to pay those bills and fund the church.

Its our OFFERINGS, that's as much The celestial law

And its on by paying the simple, intended
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

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Intended tithing that I have been freed from bribe fear man bondage and able to consecrated my OFfErings.

That, is the key
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

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idahommie wrote:Ajax, I fear very little in my life. As I mentioned in your "I can drink beer" thread, it does not matter to me what you do. You have given agency in your life to do as you wish. I would like to give you a challenge though.......the next time you go to renew your temple recommend, rather than just saying "yes" to "do you live the word of wisdom" ? Say, "I live the word of wisdom according to my interpretation of it, and I drink beer because its ok". Please report back what your Bishop responds with to that.
I


Well, a "yes" or "no" is all that is required.

I assume the morbidly obese man asking me this question answers "yes" in his own interview.
"Unlike prophets, churchmen are the product of institutions. In the safety and permanence of institutions they put their trust. They resolutely oppose the prophets whom they accuse of disturbing their repose and rocking the boat." - Hugh Nibley
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

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Calling it "net" and "gross" is really nothing but semantics. If you pay gross you're merely giving more, and that's charitable and good. But you're paying more than ten percent of your increase. I'd rather give the surplus charity to Fast Offerings, but that's me.

For tithing, I subtract taxed amount and 401k from gross pay. I pay tithing on tax return and will pay it when I start withdrawing investment 401k. I do pay tithing on other deductions for health care, life insurance, etc. So it's not on the true net, which I would agree would be ripping off the Lord.

If you pay tithing on federal taxed money, you are tithing money that is being forcibly taken from you and sent to international bankers, ACORN, abortion clinics, Solyndra, and similar waste. I certainly would NOT count it as income.
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

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AussieOi wrote:Do you understand what drjme is saying when he says god doesn't want 10%...he wants everything!

What he wants is a willing mind, those who are willing to give all they possess if called upon to do so. We covenant to do just that in the temple. God owns everything we have anyway. If people don't want to pay a full tithe, then how and why would they even consider giving all? The difference between net and gross is one thing, but "giving all" one has? We'll here people saying "gee, I can't do that. You're asking too much of me. I won't do it. It is all mine, I earned it. What about the people that get caught up in a tsunami, or a huge earthquake, or a tornado...or any number of other disasters that can happen...and they get wiped out? They lose everything.
Doesn't the same attitude of retention apply for those only willing to pay tithing on their net, or if at all?
[i]CRITICAL THINKING IS QUITE COMPATIBLE WITH THINKING "OUT-OF-THE-BOX", https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OLPL5p0fMg

REALITY...IS NOTHING MORE THAN FANTASY IN ACTION, AUTHORED BY SOMEONE SUFFERING FROM FANTASY....ME!
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

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Fort Nine wrote:Calling it "net" and "gross" is really nothing but semantics. If you pay gross you're merely giving more, and that's charitable and good. But you're paying more than ten percent of your increase. I'd rather give the surplus charity to Fast Offerings, but that's me.

For tithing, I subtract taxed amount and 401k from gross pay. I pay tithing on tax return and will pay it when I start withdrawing investment 401k. I do pay tithing on other deductions for health care, life insurance, etc. So it's not on the true net, which I would agree would be ripping off the Lord.

If you pay tithing on federal taxed money, you are tithing money that is being forcibly taken from you and sent to international bankers, ACORN, abortion clinics, Solyndra, and similar waste. I certainly would NOT count it as income.

When I pay tithing on the gross, I could care less where it goes. The fact of the matter is that I obeyed the law of God. I am not responsible for the wicked things others do with any of the money. I payed it to the Lord and he will deal with the wicked. The unconstitutional institution of the IRS is a big problem, but if we do as the Lord asks, we gain his promised blessings, which are many.

I used to feel the same way you do, but revelation taught me to do the right thing. Don't believe me, I don't want you to. Ask God what is right.
[i]CRITICAL THINKING IS QUITE COMPATIBLE WITH THINKING "OUT-OF-THE-BOX", https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OLPL5p0fMg

REALITY...IS NOTHING MORE THAN FANTASY IN ACTION, AUTHORED BY SOMEONE SUFFERING FROM FANTASY....ME!
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

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AussieOi wrote:What dis Oaks say that adds ANYthing to this discussion.

What made you decide to interpret "perfect tithe" one way or the other. A witness of the spirit. I was at that time paying tithes on my net income. Now I know without a shadow of doubt that paying a full ten% on my income is correct. It is money that would come into my hands anyway. The gov just beats me to it.

I'm not questioning what choice you made, father, how you came to believe that constituted a "perfect tithe"
[i]CRITICAL THINKING IS QUITE COMPATIBLE WITH THINKING "OUT-OF-THE-BOX", https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OLPL5p0fMg

REALITY...IS NOTHING MORE THAN FANTASY IN ACTION, AUTHORED BY SOMEONE SUFFERING FROM FANTASY....ME!
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

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freedom: I respect you stance, and I'm not arguing against paying tithing on a larger amount. The more you give, the more generous and charitable you are, the larger the sacrifice, and the more blessings you may receive. I get the way it works. I'm disagreeing with the notion that 10% of your "interest" should include a calculation for money never given to you.
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

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Fort Nine wrote:freedom: I respect you stance, and I'm not arguing against paying tithing on a larger amount. The more you give, the more generous and charitable you are, the larger the sacrifice, and the more blessings you may receive. I get the way it works. I'm disagreeing with the notion that 10% of your "interest" should include a calculation for money never given to you.

You mean like money the government takes as taxes each pay period? I had a big problem with that at one time. I argued, ranted and swore I'd never pay tithing for such reason. It was a witness by the spirit that turned me around. We know that everything evil comes from the Devil, and everything good comes from Christ, right? No matter how minute it is, either persuasion comes from one of those sources. Therefore, Satan wouldn't tell us to pay more tithing when he'd rather you didn't...he loves disobedience, not obedience to God's laws and statutes. The difference, for me anyway, between a non perfect or a perfect tithing...net or gross...came by way of a blessing. And I knew in my soul that it meant gross, not net. But this is my experience. Others can do as they wish. I'm just glad God was merciful enough to set me on the right track. I remember a verse that tells us to be humble and teachable. This experience was a test for me to be teachable.
[i]CRITICAL THINKING IS QUITE COMPATIBLE WITH THINKING "OUT-OF-THE-BOX", https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OLPL5p0fMg

REALITY...IS NOTHING MORE THAN FANTASY IN ACTION, AUTHORED BY SOMEONE SUFFERING FROM FANTASY....ME!
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

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One time I lived in a country where they taxed 90% of my income and some LDS' were saying I should pay tithing on gross, which left me with $0.00 (90% went to the government, 10% to the Church). I died of starvation shortly thereafter.
All my opinions are tentative pending further data...

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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

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freedomfighter wrote:
AussieOi wrote:Do you understand what drjme is saying when he says god doesn't want 10%...he wants everything!

What he wants is a willing mind, those who are willing to give all they possess if called upon to do so. We covenant to do just that in the temple. God owns everything we have anyway. If people don't want to pay a full tithe, then how and why would they even consider giving all? The difference between net and gross is one thing, but "giving all" one has? We'll here people saying "gee, I can't do that. You're asking too much of me. I won't do it. It is all mine, I earned it. What about the people that get caught up in a tsunami, or a huge earthquake, or a tornado...or any number of other disasters that can happen...and they get wiped out? They lose everything.
Doesn't the same attitude of retention apply for those only willing to pay tithing on their net, or if at all?


It's about living in a way where you present all you have to Him first. Not just 10% of net or gross. it doesn't mean you give away 100% every week, it means you come before Him and recognise that we are stewards over what He has blessed us with and that we act accordingly and impart where He requests. Remember when we seek the kingdom first,everything is added unto us. It's about saying Lord I trust you with all that is "mine".

Sometimes you will be impressed or shown, to give or to do something that is a big ask and that may 'scare' you. The aim is to keep The Lord above all things you focus on, think of it as a list or a heirachy that gets rearranged according to what our focus is on with God moving up and down the list according to whatever problem or fear has our focus. We aim to keep Him firmly at the top, that no problem or issue or thing being asked of us is bigger than Him or above Him.
The story of Elijah and the widow is often used for tithing, and I disagree with this. I believe it has more to do with consecration. God directs her, to do a massively scary thing, to give ALL that she has to survive on, to A Man that will turn up.
The Man turns and as God said, asks for bread, But He also offers her a immediate and amazing Miracle in exchange for her giving All she has. She is giving it to God (the record says God directed her prior to him arriving), Not necessarily Elijah, and the record says, as she gave all she Had she received an immediate and powerful miracle and never ran out of flour or oil until the drought ended.

How I try and think about is all of it is from Him, so I want to be wiser with what it is used for. Since He has ultimate wisdom, He will know what's best.
-10% (what tithe means. you can't pay a 20% tithe, and whether you see that as net or surplus doesn't bother me) goes to a church to help them function.
-Offerings, can go to the church but don't have to, you get more out of it if you actively seek people out who need help.
-whatever is left is entrusted to God directly, for us to steward over. It doesn't mean being a Scrooge and living in poverty, it means putting our trust in Him first, and being open to being directed by Him to step out as He asks us to.
The truth is incontrovertible, malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end; there it is.
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

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drjme wrote:
freedomfighter wrote:
AussieOi wrote:Do you understand what drjme is saying when he says god doesn't want 10%...he wants everything!

What he wants is a willing mind, those who are willing to give all they possess if called upon to do so. We covenant to do just that in the temple. God owns everything we have anyway. If people don't want to pay a full tithe, then how and why would they even consider giving all? The difference between net and gross is one thing, but "giving all" one has? We'll here people saying "gee, I can't do that. You're asking too much of me. I won't do it. It is all mine, I earned it. What about the people that get caught up in a tsunami, or a huge earthquake, or a tornado...or any number of other disasters that can happen...and they get wiped out? They lose everything.
Doesn't the same attitude of retention apply for those only willing to pay tithing on their net, or if at all?


It's about living in a way where you present all you have to Him first. Not just 10% of net or gross. it doesn't mean you give away 100% every week, it means you come before Him and recognise that we are stewards over what He has blessed us with and that we act accordingly and impart where He requests. Remember when we seek the kingdom first,everything is added unto us. It's about saying Lord I trust you with all that is "mine".

Sometimes you will be impressed or shown, to give or to do something that is a big ask and that may 'scare' you. The aim is to keep The Lord above all things you focus on, think of it as a list or a heirachy that gets rearranged according to what our focus is on with God moving up and down the list according to whatever problem or fear has our focus. We aim to keep Him firmly at the top, that no problem or issue or thing being asked of us is bigger than Him or above Him.
The story of Elijah and the widow is often used for tithing, and I disagree with this. I believe it has more to do with consecration. God directs her, to do a massively scary thing, to give ALL that she has to survive on, to A Man that will turn up.
The Man turns and as God said, asks for bread, But He also offers her a immediate and amazing Miracle in exchange for her giving All she has. She is giving it to God (the record says God directed her prior to him arriving), Not necessarily Elijah, and the record says, as she gave all she Had she received an immediate and powerful miracle and never ran out of flour or oil until the drought ended.

How I try and think about is all of it is from Him, so I want to be wiser with what it is used for. Since He has ultimate wisdom, He will know what's best.
-10% (what tithe means. you can't pay a 20% tithe, and whether you see that as net or surplus doesn't bother me) goes to a church to help them function.
-Offerings, can go to the church but don't have to, you get more out of it if you actively seek people out who need help.
-whatever is left is entrusted to God directly, for us to steward over. It doesn't mean being a Scrooge and living in poverty, it means putting our trust in Him first, and being open to being directed by Him to step out as He asks us to.

So eloquent. :-BD
[i]CRITICAL THINKING IS QUITE COMPATIBLE WITH THINKING "OUT-OF-THE-BOX", https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OLPL5p0fMg

REALITY...IS NOTHING MORE THAN FANTASY IN ACTION, AUTHORED BY SOMEONE SUFFERING FROM FANTASY....ME!
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

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BrianM wrote:One time I lived in a country where they taxed 90% of my income and some LDS' were saying I should pay tithing on gross, which left me with $0.00 (90% went to the government, 10% to the Church). I died of starvation shortly thereafter.

So that's why they made a movie called "The Walking Dead" revised? :D
[i]CRITICAL THINKING IS QUITE COMPATIBLE WITH THINKING "OUT-OF-THE-BOX", https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OLPL5p0fMg

REALITY...IS NOTHING MORE THAN FANTASY IN ACTION, AUTHORED BY SOMEONE SUFFERING FROM FANTASY....ME!
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

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Tithing is "interest annually". Not income. Stop quoting presidents who do not supersede God's law established through the Prophet Joseph Smith in section 119.

We had the lesson yesterday and not once was section 119 read from until I mentioned that it contained the explanation of what tithing was used for. In fact when I said so the teacher asked where that information was found?! I said "the law of tithing". He said "where's that"? I said "section 119".

Don't you see we follow the manual and not the scriptures?! Literally, we didn't once open up section 119 until I mentioned it. I don't have the heart/courage to tell the Elders we aren't following the law correctly 1) because I think those with weak testimonies may be affected and 2) that it will create contention. I don't know what else to do.
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

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Maybe say you have friends who pay on surplus and you've looked into it and can't find a reason they aren't correct.

If the cog. diss isn't too deep maybe they will ask more?
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

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AGStacker wrote:Tithing is "interest annually". Not income. Stop quoting presidents who do not supersede God's law established through the Prophet Joseph Smith in section 119.

We had the lesson yesterday and not once was section 119 read from until I mentioned that it contained the explanation of what tithing was used for. In fact when I said so the teacher asked where that information was found?! I said "the law of tithing". He said "where's that"? I said "section 119".

Don't you see we follow the manual and not the scriptures?! Literally, we didn't once open up section 119 until I mentioned it. I don't have the heart/courage to tell the Elders we aren't following the law correctly 1) because I think those with weak testimonies may be affected and 2) that it will create contention. I don't know what else to do.



Like this post. :ymapplause:
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

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Penstress wrote:
AGStacker wrote:Tithing is "interest annually". Not income. Stop quoting presidents who do not supersede God's law established through the Prophet Joseph Smith in section 119.

We had the lesson yesterday and not once was section 119 read from until I mentioned that it contained the explanation of what tithing was used for. In fact when I said so the teacher asked where that information was found?! I said "the law of tithing". He said "where's that"? I said "section 119".

Don't you see we follow the manual and not the scriptures?! Literally, we didn't once open up section 119 until I mentioned it. I don't have the heart/courage to tell the Elders we aren't following the law correctly 1) because I think those with weak testimonies may be affected and 2) that it will create contention. I don't know what else to do.



Like this post. :ymapplause:

If any of ye lack wisdom, let him ask of God....
[i]CRITICAL THINKING IS QUITE COMPATIBLE WITH THINKING "OUT-OF-THE-BOX", https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OLPL5p0fMg

REALITY...IS NOTHING MORE THAN FANTASY IN ACTION, AUTHORED BY SOMEONE SUFFERING FROM FANTASY....ME!
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after

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freedomfighter wrote:
Penstress wrote:
AGStacker wrote:Tithing is "interest annually". Not income. Stop quoting presidents who do not supersede God's law established through the Prophet Joseph Smith in section 119.

We had the lesson yesterday and not once was section 119 read from until I mentioned that it contained the explanation of what tithing was used for. In fact when I said so the teacher asked where that information was found?! I said "the law of tithing". He said "where's that"? I said "section 119".

Don't you see we follow the manual and not the scriptures?! Literally, we didn't once open up section 119 until I mentioned it. I don't have the heart/courage to tell the Elders we aren't following the law correctly 1) because I think those with weak testimonies may be affected and 2) that it will create contention. I don't know what else to do.



Like this post. :ymapplause:

If any of ye lack wisdom, let him ask of God....


I did!! And I got surprising wisdom. I'm at peace with this revelation. I know it's right. Surplus. Shockingly..... Surplus.
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