I fully agree with your statement.ajax wrote:Why are you so afraid that others may live the gospel different from you? I personally could care less how the gospel is lived in your home or anybody else's home. No stress at all. I welcome your fellowship. You seem to be the one adding unnecessary stress to your life worrying about others.
Too often LDS read the scriptures and then jump to the commentarys to see what someone else says about it. Read the scriptures straight. Only rely on the HG to teach. As concerning the WoW and tithing, section 89 and 119 are clear. These are Jesus' words.
A couple of reminders:
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 3:203-204. It makes no difference what is written or what anyone has said, if what has been said is in conflict with what the Lord has revealed, we can set it aside. My words, and the teachings of any other member of the Church, high or low, if they do not square with the revelations, we need not accept them. Let us have this matter clear. We have accepted the four standard works as the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we measure every man's doctrine.
Harold B. Lee, The Teachings of Harold B. Lee, pg 544. If anyone, regardless of his position in the Church, were to advance a doctrine that is not substantiated by the standard Church works, meaning the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price, you may know that his statement is merely his private opinion. The only one authorized to bring forth any new doctrine is the President of the Church, who, when he does, will declare it as a revelation from God, and it will be so accepted by the Council of the Twelve and sustained by the body of the Church. And if any man speak a doctrine which contradicts what is in the standard Church works, you may know by that same token that it is false and you are not bound to accept it as truth.
Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after all
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- Gnolaum ∞
- Posts: 16479
- Location: WEST OF THE NEW JERUSALEM
Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after
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- captain of 100
- Posts: 122
Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after
Anyone paying tithing on gross is throwing money away. Do you actually think the Lord wants you to count taxed money--money you never see, money taken by force (illegally as it pertains to Federal income tax)--as your "interest" or "surplus?" You pay tithing on the money you earn and put to living expenses. And pay it on a tax return, if you get one. Tithing your taxed money is like paying tithing on what the mob steals from you. If taxation were an honest endeavor by the government, maybe paying on gross would be appropriate. As is, the tax model is constitutionally illegal--the same constitution that the Lord established.
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- Gnolaum ∞
- Posts: 16479
- Location: WEST OF THE NEW JERUSALEM
Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after
See, here we go again. Other than God, himself, just who gives a rat's butt how you pay tithing? Who are you trying to convince, those that know otherwise because of the spirit telling them to pay on gross? Do you want our blessings? Do you want to rob blessings from those who pay on their gross? If you want net blessings, that's your business.Fort Nine wrote:Anyone paying tithing on gross is throwing money away. Do you actually think the Lord wants you to count taxed money--money you never see, money taken by force (illegally as it pertains to Federal income tax)--as your "interest" or "surplus?" You pay tithing on the money you earn and put to living expenses. And pay it on a tax return, if you get one. Tithing your taxed money is like paying tithing on what the mob takes from you.
We keep the commandments because we are promised eternal life if we do, right?
We endure to the end for the same reason, right?
We pay tithing for the same reason, right?
We acquire faith, hope and charity for the same reason, right?
Why? Because it is labeled "obedience", that's why. God expects obedience from his children. Those that do not, don't get the prize, it's as simple as that.
So why try to cut corners? That's a quick way to acquire the terrestrial kingdom at best.
God says "prove me herewith". Do we believe it or not? Or do we make up our own rules and expect the same results?
Good luck!
BTW, I was one that thought the same as you until I received witness that I was wrong, so then I started paying on the gross, and then more lights came on. Very well worth it, too.
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- captain of 100
- Posts: 391
Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after
Ajax, I fear very little in my life. As I mentioned in your "I can drink beer" thread, it does not matter to me what you do. You have given agency in your life to do as you wish. I would like to give you a challenge though.......the next time you go to renew your temple recommend, rather than just saying "yes" to "do you live the word of wisdom" ? Say, "I live the word of wisdom according to my interpretation of it, and I drink beer because its ok". Please report back what your Bishop responds with to that.
I
I
- Moss Man
- captain of 100
- Posts: 317
- Location: Black Hills USA
Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after
Who gets the remaining part of the gross blessing after subtracting and bestowing the net?If you want net blessings, that's your business.
- drjme
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1270
- Location: Middle Earth
Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after
They are redistributed equally amongst those who pay grossMoss Man wrote:Who gets the remaining part of the gross blessing after subtracting and bestowing the net?If you want net blessings, that's your business.
- AussieOi
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 6137
- Location: Sydney, Australia
Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after
You're a Pharisee mate
So much of this post is rubbish and you know it.
prove me herewith...you KNOW that was god talking to the levites
So much of this post is rubbish and you know it.
prove me herewith...you KNOW that was god talking to the levites
freedomfighter wrote:See, here we go again. Other than God, himself, just who gives a rat's butt how you pay tithing? Who are you trying to convince, those that know otherwise because of the spirit telling them to pay on gross? Do you want our blessings? Do you want to rob blessings from those who pay on their gross? If you want net blessings, that's your business.Fort Nine wrote:Anyone paying tithing on gross is throwing money away. Do you actually think the Lord wants you to count taxed money--money you never see, money taken by force (illegally as it pertains to Federal income tax)--as your "interest" or "surplus?" You pay tithing on the money you earn and put to living expenses. And pay it on a tax return, if you get one. Tithing your taxed money is like paying tithing on what the mob takes from you.
We keep the commandments because we are promised eternal life if we do, right?
We endure to the end for the same reason, right?
We pay tithing for the same reason, right?
We acquire faith, hope and charity for the same reason, right?
Why? Because it is labeled "obedience", that's why. God expects obedience from his children. Those that do not, don't get the prize, it's as simple as that.
So why try to cut corners? That's a quick way to acquire the terrestrial kingdom at best.
God says "prove me herewith". Do we believe it or not? Or do we make up our own rules and expect the same results?
Good luck!
BTW, I was one that thought the same as you until I received witness that I was wrong, so then I started paying on the gross, and then more lights came on. Very well worth it, too.
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- Gnolaum ∞
- Posts: 16479
- Location: WEST OF THE NEW JERUSALEM
Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after
http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1 ... g?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;Moss Man wrote:Who gets the remaining part of the gross blessing after subtracting and bestowing the net?If you want net blessings, that's your business.
1 And now it came to pass that when Jesus had told these things he expounded them unto the multitude; and he did expound all things unto them, both great and small.
2 And he saith: These scriptures, which ye had not with you, the Father commanded that I should give unto you; for it was wisdom in him that they should be given unto future generations.
Third Nephi The Book of Nephi the Son of Nephi, Who Was the Son of Helaman
Chapter 24
The Lord’s messenger will prepare the way for the Second Coming—Christ will sit in judgment—Israel is commanded to pay tithes and offerings—A book of remembrance is kept—Compare Malachi 3. About A.D. 34.
1 And it came to pass that he commanded them that they should write the words which the Father had given unto Malachi, which he should tell unto them. And it came to pass that after they were written he expounded them. And these are the words which he did tell unto them, saying: Thus said the Father unto Malachi—Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me, and the Lord whom ye seek shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in; behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of Hosts.
2 But who may abide the day of his coming, and who shall stand when he appeareth? For he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fuller’s soap.
3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness.
4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the Lord, as in the days of old, and as in former years.
5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger, and fear not me, saith the Lord of Hosts.
6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me and I will return unto you, saith the Lord of Hosts. But ye say: Wherein shall we return?
8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say: Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
9 Ye are cursed with a curse, for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in my house; and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of Hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the fields, saith the Lord of Hosts.
12 And all nations shall call you blessed, for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the Lord of Hosts.
13 Your words have been stout against me, saith the Lord. Yet ye say: What have we spoken against thee?
14 Ye have said: It is vain to serve God, and what doth it profit that we have kept his ordinances and that we have walked mournfully before the Lord of Hosts?
15 And now we call the proud happy; yea, they that work wickedness are set up; yea, they that tempt God are even delivered.
16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another, and the Lord hearkened and heard; and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.
17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of Hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
18 Then shall ye return and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.
The words of Malachi apply to us in our day.
...the law of tithing is not a remote Old Testament practice, but a commandment directly from the Savior to the people of our day. The Lord reaffirmed that law in modern revelation, commanding his people to pay “one-tenth of all their interest annually” and declaring that “this shall be a standing law unto them forever” (D&C 119:4).
Listen to Dallin Oaks from 1994
http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1 ... g?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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- Gnolaum ∞
- Posts: 16479
- Location: WEST OF THE NEW JERUSALEM
Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after
AussieOi wrote:You're a Pharisee mate
So much of this post is rubbish and you know it.
prove me herewith...you KNOW that was god talking to the levites This is half right! But you don't know that. Listen to Dallin H Oaks' GC talk from 1994.
freedomfighter wrote:See, here we go again. Other than God, himself, just who gives a rat's butt how you pay tithing? Who are you trying to convince, those that know otherwise because of the spirit telling them to pay on gross? Do you want our blessings? Do you want to rob blessings from those who pay on their gross? If you want net blessings, that's your business.Fort Nine wrote:Anyone paying tithing on gross is throwing money away. Do you actually think the Lord wants you to count taxed money--money you never see, money taken by force (illegally as it pertains to Federal income tax)--as your "interest" or "surplus?" You pay tithing on the money you earn and put to living expenses. And pay it on a tax return, if you get one. Tithing your taxed money is like paying tithing on what the mob takes from you.
We keep the commandments because we are promised eternal life if we do, right?
We endure to the end for the same reason, right?
We pay tithing for the same reason, right?
We acquire faith, hope and charity for the same reason, right?
Why? Because it is labeled "obedience", that's why. God expects obedience from his children. Those that do not, don't get the prize, it's as simple as that.
So why try to cut corners? That's a quick way to acquire the terrestrial kingdom at best.
God says "prove me herewith". Do we believe it or not? Or do we make up our own rules and expect the same results?
Good luck!
BTW, I was one that thought the same as you until I received witness that I was wrong, so then I started paying on the gross, and then more lights came on. Very well worth it, too.
- Moss Man
- captain of 100
- Posts: 317
- Location: Black Hills USA
Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after
I don't understand your response to my quote. I know tithing is a law and I've covenanted to obey it. I was asking a (sort of) facetious question that tried to remain congruent with your "net versus gross" blessing claim.freedomfighter wrote:http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1 ... g?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;Moss Man wrote:Who gets the remaining part of the gross blessing after subtracting and bestowing the net?If you want net blessings, that's your business.
1 And now it came to pass that when Jesus had told these things he expounded them unto the multitude; and he did expound all things unto them, both great and small.
2 And he saith: These scriptures, which ye had not with you, the Father commanded that I should give unto you; for it was wisdom in him that they should be given unto future generations.
Third Nephi The Book of Nephi the Son of Nephi, Who Was the Son of Helaman
Chapter 24
The Lord’s messenger will prepare the way for the Second Coming—Christ will sit in judgment—Israel is commanded to pay tithes and offerings—A book of remembrance is kept—Compare Malachi 3. About A.D. 34.
1 And it came to pass that he commanded them that they should write the words which the Father had given unto Malachi, which he should tell unto them. And it came to pass that after they were written he expounded them. And these are the words which he did tell unto them, saying: Thus said the Father unto Malachi—Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me, and the Lord whom ye seek shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in; behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of Hosts.
2 But who may abide the day of his coming, and who shall stand when he appeareth? For he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fuller’s soap.
3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness.
4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the Lord, as in the days of old, and as in former years.
5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger, and fear not me, saith the Lord of Hosts.
6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me and I will return unto you, saith the Lord of Hosts. But ye say: Wherein shall we return?
8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say: Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
9 Ye are cursed with a curse, for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in my house; and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of Hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the fields, saith the Lord of Hosts.
12 And all nations shall call you blessed, for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the Lord of Hosts.
13 Your words have been stout against me, saith the Lord. Yet ye say: What have we spoken against thee?
14 Ye have said: It is vain to serve God, and what doth it profit that we have kept his ordinances and that we have walked mournfully before the Lord of Hosts?
15 And now we call the proud happy; yea, they that work wickedness are set up; yea, they that tempt God are even delivered.
16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another, and the Lord hearkened and heard; and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.
17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of Hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
18 Then shall ye return and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.
The words of Malachi apply to us in our day.
...the law of tithing is not a remote Old Testament practice, but a commandment directly from the Savior to the people of our day. The Lord reaffirmed that law in modern revelation, commanding his people to pay “one-tenth of all their interest annually” and declaring that “this shall be a standing law unto them forever” (D&C 119:4).
Listen to Dallin Oaks from 1994
http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1 ... g?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- AussieOi
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 6137
- Location: Sydney, Australia
Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after
Mate, this church has $40-60b cash in the bank
it is believed to pull in $6-7b cash a year.
it uses favoured companies to build these great and spacious buildings.
in the last 30 years it has given to charity under $400m plus about $800m in lds labour.
If you can't figure out why Jesus probably thought to mention the Malachi thing I can't help you.
they were probably doing the same back then too.
it is believed to pull in $6-7b cash a year.
it uses favoured companies to build these great and spacious buildings.
in the last 30 years it has given to charity under $400m plus about $800m in lds labour.
If you can't figure out why Jesus probably thought to mention the Malachi thing I can't help you.
they were probably doing the same back then too.
[/quote]freedomfighter wrote:You're a Pharisee mate
So much of this post is rubbish and you know it.
prove me herewith...you KNOW that was god talking to the levites This is half right! But you don't know that. Listen to Dallin H Oaks' GC talk from 1994.
freedomfighter wrote:See, here we go again. Other than God, himself, just who gives a rat's butt how you pay tithing? Who are you trying to convince, those that know otherwise because of the spirit telling them to pay on gross? Do you want our blessings? Do you want to rob blessings from those who pay on their gross? If you want net blessings, that's your business.Fort Nine wrote:Anyone paying tithing on gross is throwing money away. Do you actually think the Lord wants you to count taxed money--money you never see, money taken by force (illegally as it pertains to Federal income tax)--as your "interest" or "surplus?" You pay tithing on the money you earn and put to living expenses. And pay it on a tax return, if you get one. Tithing your taxed money is like paying tithing on what the mob takes from you.
We keep the commandments because we are promised eternal life if we do, right?
We endure to the end for the same reason, right?
We pay tithing for the same reason, right?
We acquire faith, hope and charity for the same reason, right?
Why? Because it is labeled "obedience", that's why. God expects obedience from his children. Those that do not, don't get the prize, it's as simple as that.
So why try to cut corners? That's a quick way to acquire the terrestrial kingdom at best.
God says "prove me herewith". Do we believe it or not? Or do we make up our own rules and expect the same results?
Good luck!
BTW, I was one that thought the same as you until I received witness that I was wrong, so then I started paying on the gross, and then more lights came on. Very well worth it, too.
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- Gnolaum ∞
- Posts: 16479
- Location: WEST OF THE NEW JERUSALEM
Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after
So? Did you listen to the talk or not? I no longer am going to debate, argue or attempt to convince you of anything. Listen to the talk. If you don't want to, fine, but don't keep conveying worthless information when you could learn that Malachi's words are for us today.AussieOi wrote:Mate, this church has $40-60b cash in the bank
it is believed to pull in $6-7b cash a year.
it uses favoured companies to build these great and spacious buildings.
in the last 30 years it has given to charity under $400m plus about $800m in lds labour.
If you can't figure out why Jesus probably thought to mention the Malachi thing I can't help you.
they were probably doing the same back then too.
freedomfighter wrote:You're a Pharisee mate
So much of this post is rubbish and you know it.
prove me herewith...you KNOW that was god talking to the levites This is half right! But you don't know that. Listen to Dallin H Oaks' GC talk from 1994.
freedomfighter wrote: See, here we go again. Other than God, himself, just who gives a rat's butt how you pay tithing? Who are you trying to convince, those that know otherwise because of the spirit telling them to pay on gross? Do you want our blessings? Do you want to rob blessings from those who pay on their gross? If you want net blessings, that's your business.
We keep the commandments because we are promised eternal life if we do, right?
We endure to the end for the same reason, right?
We pay tithing for the same reason, right?
We acquire faith, hope and charity for the same reason, right?
Why? Because it is labeled "obedience", that's why. God expects obedience from his children. Those that do not, don't get the prize, it's as simple as that.
So why try to cut corners? That's a quick way to acquire the terrestrial kingdom at best.
God says "prove me herewith". Do we believe it or not? Or do we make up our own rules and expect the same results?
Good luck!
BTW, I was one that thought the same as you until I received witness that I was wrong, so then I started paying on the gross, and then more lights came on. Very well worth it, too.
- AussieOi
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 6137
- Location: Sydney, Australia
Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after
I'm sorry. I do this on an ifone. I thought it was a talk, I thought read the 1994 talk. What am I missing in the audio that wasn't in the text.
So, what did he say that changes Sec 119. What am I missing here?
So, what did he say that changes Sec 119. What am I missing here?
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- Gnolaum ∞
- Posts: 16479
- Location: WEST OF THE NEW JERUSALEM
Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after
In the first place God looks upon the heart. Years ago I was told that in the Bishop's handbook, it inferred that if a person felt that paying on the net was an honest tithe then it was acceptable. But the current handbook no longer provides this idea. But the question still remains, is it okay to pay on one's net income. I can't really answer that because the answer is still associated with God looking upon the heart.Moss Man wrote:Who gets the remaining part of the gross blessing after subtracting and bestowing the net?If you want net blessings, that's your business.
I just know from personal experience that during a time I was paying on the net, I received a priesthood blessing from a brother that didn't know me from Adam...and in that blessing, out of the blue, I was instructed to pay a perfect tithing, and from that time forth I have payed on gross. And I have been greatly blessed. Those words really struck me...I had never heard it put that way...a perfect tithing.
So I guess for paying a perfect tithing, one can expect perfect blessings, better than net blessings, I may add.
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- Gnolaum ∞
- Posts: 16479
- Location: WEST OF THE NEW JERUSALEM
Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after
I don't understand your response to my quote. I know tithing is a law and I've covenanted to obey it. I was asking a (sort of) facetious question that tried to remain congruent with your "net versus gross" blessing claim.[/quote]Moss Man wrote:http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1 ... g?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;freedomfighter wrote:
Who gets the remaining part of the gross blessing after subtracting and bestowing the net?
1 And now it came to pass that when Jesus had told these things he expounded them unto the multitude; and he did expound all things unto them, both great and small.
2 And he saith: These scriptures, which ye had not with you, the Father commanded that I should give unto you; for it was wisdom in him that they should be given unto future generations.
Third Nephi The Book of Nephi the Son of Nephi, Who Was the Son of Helaman
Chapter 24
The Lord’s messenger will prepare the way for the Second Coming—Christ will sit in judgment—Israel is commanded to pay tithes and offerings—A book of remembrance is kept—Compare Malachi 3. About A.D. 34.
1 And it came to pass that he commanded them that they should write the words which the Father had given unto Malachi, which he should tell unto them. And it came to pass that after they were written he expounded them. And these are the words which he did tell unto them, saying: Thus said the Father unto Malachi—Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me, and the Lord whom ye seek shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in; behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of Hosts.
2 But who may abide the day of his coming, and who shall stand when he appeareth? For he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fuller’s soap.
3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness.
4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the Lord, as in the days of old, and as in former years.
5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger, and fear not me, saith the Lord of Hosts.
6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me and I will return unto you, saith the Lord of Hosts. But ye say: Wherein shall we return?
8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say: Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
9 Ye are cursed with a curse, for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in my house; and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of Hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the fields, saith the Lord of Hosts.
12 And all nations shall call you blessed, for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the Lord of Hosts.
13 Your words have been stout against me, saith the Lord. Yet ye say: What have we spoken against thee?
14 Ye have said: It is vain to serve God, and what doth it profit that we have kept his ordinances and that we have walked mournfully before the Lord of Hosts?
15 And now we call the proud happy; yea, they that work wickedness are set up; yea, they that tempt God are even delivered.
16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another, and the Lord hearkened and heard; and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.
17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of Hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
18 Then shall ye return and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.
The words of Malachi apply to us in our day.
...the law of tithing is not a remote Old Testament practice, but a commandment directly from the Savior to the people of our day. The Lord reaffirmed that law in modern revelation, commanding his people to pay “one-tenth of all their interest annually” and declaring that “this shall be a standing law unto them forever” (D&C 119:4).
Listen to Dallin Oaks from 1994
http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1 ... g?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Since I figured it was a facetious question, a straight answer was withheld. Sorry.
- AussieOi
- Level 34 Illuminated
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- Location: Sydney, Australia
Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after
What dis Oaks say that adds ANYthing to this discussion.
What made you decide to interpret "perfect tithe" one way or the other.
I'm not questioning what choice you made, father, how you came to believe that constituted a "perfect tithe"
What made you decide to interpret "perfect tithe" one way or the other.
I'm not questioning what choice you made, father, how you came to believe that constituted a "perfect tithe"
- A Random Phrase
- Follower of Christ
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after
I spent most of the lesson time studying the tithing references in the D&C that were listed in the index.
I read section 119 as if I had never seen it before, and it looks to me like it meant "consecration" instead of what we think of as tithing. I had never seen it that way before. It was as if we are not really living the law of tithing if consecration isn't part of it, as if all our teaching about tithing is skewed because we don't understand what it really entails.
And the references that talk about not being burned when Jesus comes is because those people are sharing, they "have all things in common." It has nothing at all to do with giving ten percent of anything to anyone. I really think that when Jesus talks about "tithing" He is not looking at it as separate from consecration at all.
I am beginning to think that all of this going round and round and round again about net versus gross versus surplus is useless, because God may just view tithing as part of consecration and we are very skewed in our view of it. Is it possible that we cannot live the real law of tithing because it is intricately connected with consecration and when we try to sever that connection, we totally screw it up? Is it possible that we are arguing over something that is nonexistent in the actual law Jesus intended us to have?
I read section 119 as if I had never seen it before, and it looks to me like it meant "consecration" instead of what we think of as tithing. I had never seen it that way before. It was as if we are not really living the law of tithing if consecration isn't part of it, as if all our teaching about tithing is skewed because we don't understand what it really entails.
And the references that talk about not being burned when Jesus comes is because those people are sharing, they "have all things in common." It has nothing at all to do with giving ten percent of anything to anyone. I really think that when Jesus talks about "tithing" He is not looking at it as separate from consecration at all.
I am beginning to think that all of this going round and round and round again about net versus gross versus surplus is useless, because God may just view tithing as part of consecration and we are very skewed in our view of it. Is it possible that we cannot live the real law of tithing because it is intricately connected with consecration and when we try to sever that connection, we totally screw it up? Is it possible that we are arguing over something that is nonexistent in the actual law Jesus intended us to have?
- AussieOi
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 6137
- Location: Sydney, Australia
Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after
Mate you get it!
Do you understand what drjme is saying when he says god doesn't want 10%...he wants everything!
And the Pharisees living the "perfect tithe" but missing the point.
And widows mite.
You have to connect the dots from consecration, which failed, to tithing, and its very simple objective.
Its just a law to pay those bills and fund the church.
Its our OFFERINGS, that's as much The celestial law
And its on by paying the simple, intended
Do you understand what drjme is saying when he says god doesn't want 10%...he wants everything!
And the Pharisees living the "perfect tithe" but missing the point.
And widows mite.
You have to connect the dots from consecration, which failed, to tithing, and its very simple objective.
Its just a law to pay those bills and fund the church.
Its our OFFERINGS, that's as much The celestial law
And its on by paying the simple, intended
- AussieOi
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 6137
- Location: Sydney, Australia
Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after
Intended tithing that I have been freed from bribe fear man bondage and able to consecrated my OFfErings.
That, is the key
That, is the key
- ajax
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 8013
- Location: Pf, Texas
Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after
idahommie wrote:Ajax, I fear very little in my life. As I mentioned in your "I can drink beer" thread, it does not matter to me what you do. You have given agency in your life to do as you wish. I would like to give you a challenge though.......the next time you go to renew your temple recommend, rather than just saying "yes" to "do you live the word of wisdom" ? Say, "I live the word of wisdom according to my interpretation of it, and I drink beer because its ok". Please report back what your Bishop responds with to that.
I
Well, a "yes" or "no" is all that is required.
I assume the morbidly obese man asking me this question answers "yes" in his own interview.
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- captain of 100
- Posts: 122
Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after
Calling it "net" and "gross" is really nothing but semantics. If you pay gross you're merely giving more, and that's charitable and good. But you're paying more than ten percent of your increase. I'd rather give the surplus charity to Fast Offerings, but that's me.
For tithing, I subtract taxed amount and 401k from gross pay. I pay tithing on tax return and will pay it when I start withdrawing investment 401k. I do pay tithing on other deductions for health care, life insurance, etc. So it's not on the true net, which I would agree would be ripping off the Lord.
If you pay tithing on federal taxed money, you are tithing money that is being forcibly taken from you and sent to international bankers, ACORN, abortion clinics, Solyndra, and similar waste. I certainly would NOT count it as income.
For tithing, I subtract taxed amount and 401k from gross pay. I pay tithing on tax return and will pay it when I start withdrawing investment 401k. I do pay tithing on other deductions for health care, life insurance, etc. So it's not on the true net, which I would agree would be ripping off the Lord.
If you pay tithing on federal taxed money, you are tithing money that is being forcibly taken from you and sent to international bankers, ACORN, abortion clinics, Solyndra, and similar waste. I certainly would NOT count it as income.
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- Gnolaum ∞
- Posts: 16479
- Location: WEST OF THE NEW JERUSALEM
Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after
What he wants is a willing mind, those who are willing to give all they possess if called upon to do so. We covenant to do just that in the temple. God owns everything we have anyway. If people don't want to pay a full tithe, then how and why would they even consider giving all? The difference between net and gross is one thing, but "giving all" one has? We'll here people saying "gee, I can't do that. You're asking too much of me. I won't do it. It is all mine, I earned it. What about the people that get caught up in a tsunami, or a huge earthquake, or a tornado...or any number of other disasters that can happen...and they get wiped out? They lose everything.AussieOi wrote:Do you understand what drjme is saying when he says god doesn't want 10%...he wants everything!
Doesn't the same attitude of retention apply for those only willing to pay tithing on their net, or if at all?
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- Gnolaum ∞
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Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after
When I pay tithing on the gross, I could care less where it goes. The fact of the matter is that I obeyed the law of God. I am not responsible for the wicked things others do with any of the money. I payed it to the Lord and he will deal with the wicked. The unconstitutional institution of the IRS is a big problem, but if we do as the Lord asks, we gain his promised blessings, which are many.Fort Nine wrote:Calling it "net" and "gross" is really nothing but semantics. If you pay gross you're merely giving more, and that's charitable and good. But you're paying more than ten percent of your increase. I'd rather give the surplus charity to Fast Offerings, but that's me.
For tithing, I subtract taxed amount and 401k from gross pay. I pay tithing on tax return and will pay it when I start withdrawing investment 401k. I do pay tithing on other deductions for health care, life insurance, etc. So it's not on the true net, which I would agree would be ripping off the Lord.
If you pay tithing on federal taxed money, you are tithing money that is being forcibly taken from you and sent to international bankers, ACORN, abortion clinics, Solyndra, and similar waste. I certainly would NOT count it as income.
I used to feel the same way you do, but revelation taught me to do the right thing. Don't believe me, I don't want you to. Ask God what is right.
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- Gnolaum ∞
- Posts: 16479
- Location: WEST OF THE NEW JERUSALEM
Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after
AussieOi wrote:What dis Oaks say that adds ANYthing to this discussion.
What made you decide to interpret "perfect tithe" one way or the other. A witness of the spirit. I was at that time paying tithes on my net income. Now I know without a shadow of doubt that paying a full ten% on my income is correct. It is money that would come into my hands anyway. The gov just beats me to it.
I'm not questioning what choice you made, father, how you came to believe that constituted a "perfect tithe"
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- captain of 100
- Posts: 122
Re: Definition of Tithing in 1838 WAS "surplus" income after
freedom: I respect you stance, and I'm not arguing against paying tithing on a larger amount. The more you give, the more generous and charitable you are, the larger the sacrifice, and the more blessings you may receive. I get the way it works. I'm disagreeing with the notion that 10% of your "interest" should include a calculation for money never given to you.