Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

For discussing the Church, Gospel of Jesus Christ, Mormonism, etc.
JohnnyL
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 9831

Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by JohnnyL »

Called to Serve wrote:They are trifling if you are trying to learn the gospel. But if you are trying to figure out where the Nephites lived, they're vital.

No one's saying that we have to know where the Nephites and Lamanites lived in order to obtain salvation or anything. It's just fun to think about. That can be one of the things when the Savior comes again and reveals all things to us we can say--yeah, I got that one! Or not. Just fun. Not serious.
WAAAAAAY beyond "fun" for many people... ;)

JohnnyL
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 9831

Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by JohnnyL »

livy111us wrote:As long as you have that attitude, that is great. But I just spoke to someone yesterday who subscribes to Meldrums Great Lakes theory who believes BOM geography is central to the Gospel. As long as we study it with the understanding that it is interesting and fun to toss ideas around, then there is no harm. When you take it so seriously that you think those who disagree with you are in apostasy then you are looking beyond the mark.
Ah, I'll write the GA and tell him to repent! Luckily, though he is not in apostasy yet.

Seriously, anyone who has that attitude, is likely in serious spiritual trouble.

livy111us
captain of 100
Posts: 288

Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by livy111us »

Rod,
They have determined past civilizations populations in basically all of the same way, and the study which I quoted supports previously (and currently) known information. There were no cities among the Hopewell, only small villages. How do you house tens of thousands of people in a small village that only big enough to contain 100 people? There just is no evidence of a large population. You mention large mounds, but these were not built over night (or over several years like in The Book of Mormon) but built over the span of several centuries (North American Archaeology Pauketat and Loren). If they are built over the span of centuries, then a large group of people would not be needed. Archaeologist’s are not dumb people and they have discovered enough to know about how big a population is. They’ve been digging Hopewell sites for a very long time now and have yet to discover anything to indicate they matched anything close to the population and cities we find in The Book of Mormon. If you discover numerous large cities with the kind of trash, remains, houses, products of everyday living, etc… to support a large population, then there probably actually was a large population. If you discover only villages, with hamlets, and the trash, and products of everyday living to support a small population, then it probably was only a small population.

You say “There were huge populations in America's Heartland in ancient times.”
This is true, but these populations post-date The Book of Mormon. For that matter, so does the internet and electricity. They happened after the time period of The Book of Mormon and therefore have nothing to do with The Book of Mormon. It is a bit dis-honest do make this claim, since I have brought this up to you in the past. You know that these populations happened centuries, even millennia after The Book of Mormon, yet you continue to use it as evidence for The Book of Mormon. Let’s please stick to the facts, document your answers, and keep within the correct time period for The Book of Mormon.
Rod says “please show us one single historically documented instance of Joseph Smith writing in his own handwriting,”
I have provided the Bernhisel document above, which he states that the Stephens and Catherwoods book on Mesoamerica “corresponds with and supports The Book of Mormon.” I provided several other examples as well. I don’t proudly wave it around either because I don’t think it makes or breaks BOM geography. Particularly since there are other men who held the same calling as Joseph Smith who believed The Book of Mormon to have taken place in Mesoamerica which would have just as much validity.
Rod says “but no matter how much you may DESIRE to believe this account to be from Joseph Smith, it is another second hand account”
Rod, you realize that you have used these same second hand accounts as evidence for your model? Yet when I use them, you immediately throw them out? How is that fair?

ZARAHEMLA

Regarding Zarahemla, you try to dismiss what I say without even hearing the evidence. The Church has published in the Church Institute manual, approved to be taught in Church sanctioned classes that provides a different interpretation that what you’d like to present. It says that the Lord did not reveal it to be the original Zarahemla, but that it was named *after* the Zarahemla in The Book of Mormon.
“D&C 125:3 . Where Does the Term Zarahemla Come From? Where Was the City Located?

The precise meaning of the word Zarahemla is not known. The term comes from the Book of Mormon account of the people who came to America from Jerusalem at the time Zedekiah was carried captive into Babylon. They were called the people of Zarahemla after the name of their leader. They lived in a city named Zarahemla, in the land of Zarahemla (see Omni 1:12–19 ).

It was common in Book of Mormon times to name cities “after the name of him who first possessed them” ( Alma 8:7 ). The Latter-day Saints gave many of their settlements Book of Mormon names. For example, in Utah are such cities as Nephi, Moroni, Manti, and Bountiful.

One of the first settlements named in this way by the Saints was Zarahemla, at Nashville, Lee County, Iowa. “This settlement was founded by the Saints in 1839, on the uplands about a mile west of the Mississippi River, near Montrose and opposite Nauvoo, Ill. The Church had bought an extensive tract of land here. At a conference held at Zarahemla, August 7th, 1841, seven hundred and fifty Church members were represented, of whom three hundred and twenty-six lived in Zarahemla. But when the Saints left for the Rocky Mountains, that city was lost sight of.” (Smith and Sjodahl, Commentary, p. 796.)”
As mentioned above, there are several BOM cities in Utah that have nothing to do with The Book of Mormon. The city Bountiful, Lehi, Nephi, Moroni all are within a few hundred miles of me and are not BOM sites. They named these cities after important cities in The Book of Mormon. How many New Yorks are there? Springfields? There is a Moscow in Idaho that has nothing to do with Russia. Just because it shares a name does not mean it is the exact same site.
Matthew Roper, who currently works at the Neal A. Maxwell Institute and has written several articles rebutting Rod Meldrums theory, wrote this about the subject

“In March 1841, in a revelation now known as section 125 of the Doctrine and Covenants, the Lord counseled the Saints in Iowa to gather at several appointed locations:

What is the will of the Lord concerning the saints in the Territory of Iowa? Verily, thus saith the Lord, I say unto you, if those who call themselves by my name and are essaying to be my saints, if they will do my will and keep my commandments concerning them, let them gather themselves together unto the places which I shall appoint unto them by my servant Joseph, and build up cities unto my name, that they may be prepared for that which is in store for a time to come. Let them build up a city unto my name upon the land opposite the city of Nauvoo, and let the name of Zarahemla be named upon it. And let all those who come from the east, and the west, and the north, and the south, that have desires to dwell therein, take up their inheritance in the same, as well as in the city of Nashville, or in the city of Nauvoo, and in all the stakes which I have appointed, saith the Lord. (D&C 125:1–4)
Porter and Meldrum use this revelation to support their theory about the location of the ancient Zarahemla. Noting that the Book of Mormon speaks of the New Jerusalem as geographically distinct from Jerusalem (Ether 13:5), they argue that since the Lord called the Iowa settlement "Zarahemla" in revelation, it must be the same location mentioned in the Book of Mormon; otherwise, the Lord would have called the Iowa site "New Zarahemla" rather than "Zarahemla" to clarify the difference in location. "There is no indication that He named it for any other purpose than to establish an understanding of where the ancient city may have stood" (p. 111). Really? The name Zion, besides referring to the Lord's people (Moses 7:18), can refer to the Temple Mount in Jerusalem (1 Kings 8:1); the City of Enoch (Moses 7:19, 63); Jackson County, Missouri (D&C 66:6); or the city to be built there (D&C 57:2). Each is a different geographical location named "Zion" by the Lord; none is called "New Zion."

More important, Porter and Meldrum's theory rests upon the assumption that it was the Lord who first designated the Iowa gathering site as Zarahemla. This, however, is not the case. On 2 July 1839, Joseph Smith and other church leaders visited the site in question. The entry published in the History of the Church reads as follows:

Spent the forenoon of this day on the Iowa side of the river. Went, in company with Elders Sidney Rigdon, Hyrum Smith, and Bishops Whitney and Knight, and others, to visit a purchase lately made by Bishop Knight as a location for a town, and advised that a town be built there, and called Zarahemla.
The last three words of this entry, "and called Zarahemla," were not written by Joseph Smith but were written into the "Manuscript History of Joseph Smith" by Elder Willard Richards when he recorded the history for that date sometime after the Prophet's death in 1844.85 However, referring to the settlement as "Zarahemla" before the March 1841 revelation is consistent with other historical evidence showing that the Saints already referred to the site by that name. Brigham Young, who began keeping a regular journal in early 1839, recorded that on 2 July 1839 "Brothers Joseph, Hyrum and others came over the river to Montrose, and went out on the prairie and looked out the sight for a city for the Saints, which was called Zarahemla." 86 Elias Smith, a cousin of Joseph Smith, recorded in his journal for 24 June 1839 the following: "Moved from Commerce to Lee County, Iowa Territory, and went on the farm bought of F. P. Blevins." 87 In his journal for 16 August 1840, he recorded the death of the Prophet's brother Don Carlos and noted that there was a "Conference at Zarahemla" on that day. 88 These early references to the name of the Iowa settlement previous to March 1841 indicate that the Saints referred to it as Zarahemla long before the reve lation in question. There is no indication in these early sources that this designation was based upon revelation or even that it was Joseph Smith's idea. This evidence suggests, rather, that the name did not originate with the March 1841 revelation and that the Lord was referencing a location already known among the Saints by that name. The purpose of the revelation was most likely to counsel the Saints to gather at the appointed place and not, as the authors suggest, to reveal the ancient location of a Book of Mormon city. The Saints did what they would often do—name places they lived after places mentioned in the Bible and the Book of Mormon. There is no compelling reason to associate the Iowa settlement with ancient Zarahemla.” You can read the entire article here: http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... m=2&id=805" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

John Lund has wrote “They believe that the city of Zarahemla in Iowa across the Mississippi River and opposite of Nauvoo, was named by revelation as the original Zarahemla. That is trying hard to make that scripture say something that it does not say. One wonders why the Lord didn’t name Nauvoo, which in on a hill, “Amnihu?” In the Book of Mormon the hill Amnihu is directly across the River Sidon (Alma 2:15). Zarahemla, Iowa was named by revelation, but there is no indication that the Lord was declaring where the original Land of Zarahemla stood… It is also contrary to the official Church newspaper Times and Seasons published article under the supervision and editorship of Joseph Smith wherein he states that Zarahemla stood upon the land of “Guatemala.” These same Great Lake’s advocates recognize that somewhere south of the Land of Zarahemla are the highlands of the Land of Nephi. Their current proposal is the eastern hills of Tennessee. West of the east hills of Tennessee is Chattanooga, Tennessee. From Chattanooga to Zarahemla, Iowa is about six hundred and thirty-four miles.
West of Zarahemla is the Land of Melek and three days north of the border of Melek is the city of Ammonihah. A conservative estimate is fifty miles north of Zarahemla. The Land of Zarahemla does have its borders and east to west distances are about three hundred miles, while the north south range is about five hundred to a maximum of six hundred and fifty miles. In order for the Great Lakes geography to work, it requires over eight hundred and seventy miles from Zarahemla, Iowa, to Palmyra, New York. This is an east to west range nearly three times greater than what armies and escaping Nephites can travel given the internal restraints of the Book of Mormon.”

livy111us
captain of 100
Posts: 288

Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by livy111us »

Since most of what you said is re-hashed from the first few posts, I think I'll call it good. If someone would like me to respond to any particular point, please let me know and I will do so. In the meantime, most everything that Rod has brought up has been rebutted before. You can read these reviews here:


http://www.fairblog.org/2011/02/12/the- ... of-mormon/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... m=2&id=805" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... m=2&id=806" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... m=1&id=793" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... m=1&id=796" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.fairblog.org/2010/09/16/land ... of-mormon/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.fairblog.org/2010/09/16/weat ... geography/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.fairblog.org/2010/04/29/the- ... oup-again/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.fairblog.org/2010/04/02/zelp ... geography/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.fairblog.org/2010/04/02/book ... miths-day/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.fairlds.org/reviews-of-dna-e ... -geography" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.bmaf.org/node/323" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... num=1&id=7" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... m=1&id=420" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... m=1&id=817" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... m=2&id=153" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... m=2&id=219" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... m=1&id=347" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

livy111us
captain of 100
Posts: 288

Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by livy111us »

Oops, just remembered a few things I was going to respond to. Rod says there are never tornadoes in Mesoamerica. Don't try telling them that :)

They have recently had several tornadoes in the Jalisco area, with property damage and 5 deaths. Give us a hurricane any day. You know it is coming and you can be prepared or get out of the way.
("Heat Waves and Tornadoes," in Midsummerâ??s News in the Yucatan, 2007 URL: http://www.yucatanli...the-yucatan.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Accessed: 5-12-2008; bold emphasis mine)

You can watch a video of a tornado from Mesoamerica here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPQmJVurBNg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also, you mentioned thick clothing. I, along with several other people have told you this before and it was published in one of the articles above, but it keeps slipping your mind. Thick clothing was used as armor in Mesoamerica, just as it was in The Book of Mormon. This information can be found in any cursory search regarding Mesoamerican armor. Bill Hamblin published a very good paper on the subject here:http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... chapid=738

Not only does this argument not go against the Mesoamerican theory, but it actually supports it.

Ok, I'm done now.

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Gad
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by Gad »

I have a hard time understanding why people get so worked up about this subject. I have seen lots of hurt feelings and bickering over the BoM lands. Does anyone have some insight?

I kind of figure that Mormon/Moroni saw our day and could have included geographical information to have the issue settled. Since they chose not to be explicit about it, it must not have been important.

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Etosha
captain of 100
Posts: 466

Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by Etosha »

I was just reading over this thread and I've decided that I really don't care where they were - not enjoying the tone here.

HeirofNumenor
the Heir Of Numenor
Posts: 4229
Location: UT

Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by HeirofNumenor »

I have a hard time understanding why people get so worked up about this subject. I have seen lots of hurt feelings and bickering over the BoM lands. Does anyone have some insight?
Professional/academic reputation is pretty much at the heart of it - for ALL involved. all theories, all scholars...

My take on it anyway... :-B

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Rose Garden
Don't ask . . .
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by Rose Garden »

JohnnyL wrote:I think you have lots of cultural limitations and biases here (especially that Canadian part!). If it's the narrow neck of land, weren't you the one talking about changes after the destruction? Many places now under water weren't, and many that aren't were. Look at Mexico City, for instance.
Are you being serious? I honestly can't tell. About Canada, I mean. I don't think I have any cultural biases. My idea of the difficulty the Jaradites would have had in living in Canada comes from a book I read that was based on a true story about a woman a hundred or two years ago who married a man and followed him to Canada. She didn't live too far above the border but the climate was so harsh that the families would talk of their "first family" and "second family" and so forth. Apparently the climate was so harsh that many families would lose every child they had to illness during a particularly bad winter and would have to start all over again. I believe she lived not too far from the great lakes area.

I served my mission in Canada, by the way.

As for the changes in the land, someone mentioned how the entire book was abridged by Mormon and Moroni and they would have known of the current landscape. So I've put that problem to rest. I've gone back to thinking that the descriptions in the Book of Mormon are probably correct (or Mormon would have probably mentioned the differences as he went along).

To be honest, I'm thinking I'll bow out of the conversation for now. I was curious about all the various ideas but really it's getting kind of ridiculous. I think I was better off when I was looking at the general picture, which really seems so clear cut to me now that I've gotten all sorts of other things thrown at me.

It seems to me that there was a narrow neck of land with a land northward and a land southward. It seems that that neck would have to be pretty easy to spot as an actual neck and that the land northward and the land southward would have to cover the land from one ocean to the other. It always seemed so clear before and now I'm just going back to that because everything else just seems so complicated and some of it pretty far-fetched. I haven't seen anything yet that would conclusively sway me from that conclusion.

So happy arguing. I'll find out for sure when I see the Savior and can ask Him. Or Moroni or Nephi or someone. At least now I know some of the other reasoning out there for the different locations.

livy111us
captain of 100
Posts: 288

Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by livy111us »

Etosha wrote:I was just reading over this thread and I've decided that I really don't care where they were - not enjoying the tone here.
I think you have more sense than most of us (including me). I have tried been guilty in the past, but am looking forward to have a respectful conversation with Rod, but have to say, it is difficult when you are continually maligned. One thing that keeps drawing back are the insults he throws at me. If he would be respectful, there would have been a lot of conversations I just would have avoided. But you are absolutely right, it does not matter where it happened and too many people get worked up over something that makes zero difference on our salvation.

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Etosha
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Posts: 466

Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by Etosha »

;) I appreciate that - thanks!

larsenb
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10813
Location: Between here and Standing Rock

Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by larsenb »

Rod Meldrum wrote:
Called to Serve wrote: . . . Another indication it could not have occurred in Mesoamerica is because of the instances of tornado's (whirlwinds) which do not happen in Mesoamerica because the conditions necessary for their formation don't exist. Now compare that to the Heartland of North America. (see 3 Nephi 8:12, 16). Remember Joplin, Missouri? When it was hit by a category 4 twister it was quite literally "blown away." Incredibly, there was a Joplin man's body that was found over 50 miles away from Joplin. It had, like those described in the Book of Mormon, been "carried away in the whirlwind" (3 Ne. 8:16). Show me any category 4 tornado in Mesoamerican history. They don't exist... and don't let ol' livy try to mislead you into thinking that "whirlwind" actually meant "hurricane" because Ether 6:6 defines such fierce winds as a "tempest" not a "whirlwind."
But remember 3 Nephi 8:5, which says: "there arose a great storm, such an one as never had been known in all the land". So your passages don't really bespeak an area subject to seasonal tornadoes, such as the midwest. The 'whirlwinds' occurred during a very uncommon singular episode of extreme whether and earth-related events; the latter of which could have been related to plate movements and maybe volcanics.

To say category 4 tornadoes haven't taken place in Mesoamerica, implying that they haven't taken place there or won't, is a rather bold assertion akin to trying to prove a negative proposition. How about category 2 or 3 tornadoes? What category of tornado can pick a man up an move him a certain distance?

Remember the tornadoes that occurred in Great Britain this past year? They are normally never heard of in that particular locale.

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BroJones
Level 34 Illuminated
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by BroJones »

livy111us wrote:Since most of what you said is re-hashed from the first few posts, I think I'll call it good. If someone would like me to respond to any particular point, please let me know and I will do so. In the meantime, most everything that Rod has brought up has been rebutted before. You can read these reviews here:


http://www.fairblog.org/2011/02/12/the- ... of-mormon/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... m=2&id=805" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... m=2&id=806" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... m=1&id=793" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... m=1&id=796" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.fairblog.org/2010/09/16/land ... of-mormon/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.fairblog.org/2010/09/16/weat ... geography/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.fairblog.org/2010/04/29/the- ... oup-again/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.fairblog.org/2010/04/02/zelp ... geography/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.fairblog.org/2010/04/02/book ... miths-day/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.fairlds.org/reviews-of-dna-e ... -geography" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.bmaf.org/node/323" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... num=1&id=7" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... m=1&id=420" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... m=1&id=817" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... m=2&id=153" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... m=2&id=219" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... m=1&id=347" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
You have an impressive list.

The Nephites practiced the Law of Moses, including natural-stone altars (Exodus 20), before the coming of Jesus to them.

Anything which shows that the ALTARS in Mesoamerica (pre 34 AD) are from NON_HEWN and non-carved stone as required in the law of Moses? I'd like to see data regarding altars (hewn or natural stones?) for both Central and North America, pre-coming of Jesus (ca 34 AD). Any solid info would be appreciated.

I've been to AdamOA a number of times in Missouri, and the Church has plaques there stating that there were "Nephite altars" there at one time, identified evidently by Joseph Smith and comprised of natural stones. To me, this may be significant.

livy111us
captain of 100
Posts: 288

Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by livy111us »

DrJones wrote:
livy111us wrote:Since most of what you said is re-hashed from the first few posts, I think I'll call it good. If someone would like me to respond to any particular point, please let me know and I will do so. In the meantime, most everything that Rod has brought up has been rebutted before. You can read these reviews here:


http://www.fairblog.org/2011/02/12/the- ... of-mormon/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... m=2&id=805" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... m=2&id=806" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... m=1&id=793" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... m=1&id=796" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.fairblog.org/2010/09/16/land ... of-mormon/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.fairblog.org/2010/09/16/weat ... geography/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.fairblog.org/2010/04/29/the- ... oup-again/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.fairblog.org/2010/04/02/zelp ... geography/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.fairblog.org/2010/04/02/book ... miths-day/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.fairlds.org/reviews-of-dna-e ... -geography" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.bmaf.org/node/323" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... num=1&id=7" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... m=1&id=420" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... m=1&id=817" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... m=2&id=153" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... m=2&id=219" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... m=1&id=347" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
You have an impressive list.

The Nephites practiced the Law of Moses, including natural-stone altars (Exodus 20), before the coming of Jesus to them.

Anything which shows that the ALTARS in Mesoamerica (pre 34 AD) are from NON_HEWN and non-carved stone as required in the law of Moses? I'd like to see data regarding altars (hewn or natural stones?) for both Central and North America, pre-coming of Jesus (ca 34 AD). Any solid info would be appreciated.

I've been to AdamOA a number of times in Missouri, and the Church has plaques there stating that there were "Nephite altars" there at one time, identified evidently by Joseph Smith and comprised of natural stones. To me, this may be significant.
Hmmm...That will be a difficult one but will see what I can do. To find a small mound of stone that would survive over 2,000 years through earthquakes, the takeover of Nephite cities by Lamanites who would love to destroy their religion, as well as the conquistadors would be a miracle in and of itself, but will take a look and appreciate the challenge. Adam-ondi-Ahman would be an anomaly for sure.

larsenb
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10813
Location: Between here and Standing Rock

Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by larsenb »

Rod Meldrum wrote:
livy111us wrote:
2. how he supposedly changed his mind after the 1842 Times and Seasons articles (which he didn't write and was historically known to have been in hiding from the law at the time) . . . . .

Your faulty "internal model" interpretations are no match for the prophecies and Joseph Smith's statements which all support our Heartland Model theory. I'll be interested to read how you are going to "spin" this one! Happy trails! Contrary to Mesoamerican theorists who gleefully proclaim that Joseph was ignorant and uneducated about where the lands of the Book of Mormon were located...Joseph Knew! The Lord Knew! And they both sent those first missionaries unto the Lamanite remnant in the Heartland of North America and never to Mesoamerica. Now you know.
I've not been aware that Mesoamerican theorists "gleefully proclaim that Joseph was ignorant and uneducated about where the lands of the Book of Mormon were located". On the contrary,I've heard them cite the evidence that he believed they were in the Mesoamerican region. I've also heard them cite how he would regale his family with his descriptions of their dress and civilization in general, which strongly implies he had images in his mind that he could use to identify any remnants of their civilization if he saw them.

You will need to go over the evidence John Lund presented in the recent BMAF Conference that Joseph really did author the 1842 Times and Seasons articles (each with his signature block at the end) stating that he believed the Mesoamerican region described by Stevens was where Zarahemela was located. I found it very compelling.

What he did was take 11 stylistic, word usage, frequency, vocabulary, etc. elements and analyzed the writings of Joseph Smith, John Taylor, and Wilford Woodruff (editors of Times and Seasons at this time) and compared them to the articles wherein the claims were made that the Guatemalan/Southern Mexico region was where Zarahemla was located. Each article fit Smith's profile to a 'T', and normally showed wide divergence from both Taylor's and Woodruff's profiles.

Apparently, other authors have done the same thing; namely: Matthew Roper, Paul Fields, and Atul Nepal in their article: Wordprint Analysis and Joseph Smith's Role as Editor of the Times and Seasons, at: http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... m=6&id=923" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; .

These studies are compelling to me, especially Dr. John Lund's, which I heard first person.

Now, I would have to look into your assertion that Joseph was on the lam and therefore wouldn't have been available to write these articles. And of course would have to read any rebuttal to your claims on this issue to get a clear idea of the possibilities to see how that fits in with the evidence that Joseph actually wrote the articles.

livy111us
captain of 100
Posts: 288

Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by livy111us »

Thanks, Ben. I cannot get that link to work, though.
In addition to Ben's comments, the Bible doesn't only mention an altar of unhewn stone, but also altars of dirt, stone, gold, brass, etc... They are not limited to unhewn stone. One Bible Dictionary states:
“The stone altar is the most commonly mentioned altar in biblical records and the most frequently found in excavations from Palestine. A single large stone could serve as an altar (Judges 6:19-23; Judges 13:19-20; 1 Samuel 14:31-35). Similarly, unhewn stones could be carefully stacked to form an altar (Exodus 20:25, 1 Kings 18:30-35). Such stone altars were probably the most common form of altar prior to the building of the Solomonic Temple. A number of examples of stone altars have been excavated in Palestine. The sanctuary at Arad, belonging to the period of the Divided Monarchy (900 B.C. to 600 B.C.) had such a stone altar.”

And another:

“Before considering the Biblical texts attention must be drawn to the fact that these texts know of at least two kinds of altars which were so different in appearance that no contemporary could possibly confuse them. The first was an altar consisting of earth or unhewn stones. It had no fixed shape, but varied with the materials. It might consist of a rock (Jdg 13:19) or a single large stone (1 Sam 14:33-35) or again a number of stones (1 Ki 18:31 f). It could have no horns, nor it would be impossible to give the stone horns without hewing it, nor would a heap of earth lend itself to the formation of horns. It could have no regular pattern for the same reason. On the other hand we meet with a group of passages that refer to altars of quite a different type. We read of horns, of fixed measurements, of a particular pattern, of bronze as the material. To bring home the difference more rapidly illustrations of the two types are given side by side.”
So, righteous Israel did use altars of different material. This is found not only in scripture, but also in archaeology. One argument against The Book of Mormon is that it speaks of Temples being built outside of Jerusalem, when the Bible says that they cannot. Of course, when the Bible is looked at as a whole, it says something different. In Tel Arad they discovered an ancient Temple that was used by Righteous Israelites. This showed that the Israelites WERE operating Temples of God outside of Jerusalem. In this Temple was an altar that was solid stone. You can see the evidence for the argument here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=af6esIB10d4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Tel Dan Temple has a stone altar, similar to those found in Mesoamerica, along with many other Israelite altars.

User avatar
Benjamin Harrison
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Posts: 472

Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by Benjamin Harrison »

DR. Jones: SEE: Pool of the rain God Altar of un-hewn limestone found in Chemenche, Mexico. Also are the Izapa stella # 5 in Guatemala depicting Lehi's Dream of the tree of Life written in Chiasmic form no less. Other ruins glyphs that have been found are also in chiasmic form as well.
tree of life.jpg
Izapa stella 5.png
On H.W. Hunters desk.jpg
I guess you have to google it as I can't get a link to work here. Academia.edu/pool-of-the-rain-god-stuccoed-altar-aguacatal-chemeche-mexico.

livy111us
captain of 100
Posts: 288

Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by livy111us »

larsenb wrote:
Rod Meldrum wrote:
livy111us wrote:
2. how he supposedly changed his mind after the 1842 Times and Seasons articles (which he didn't write and was historically known to have been in hiding from the law at the time) . . . . .

Your faulty "internal model" interpretations are no match for the prophecies and Joseph Smith's statements which all support our Heartland Model theory. I'll be interested to read how you are going to "spin" this one! Happy trails! Contrary to Mesoamerican theorists who gleefully proclaim that Joseph was ignorant and uneducated about where the lands of the Book of Mormon were located...Joseph Knew! The Lord Knew! And they both sent those first missionaries unto the Lamanite remnant in the Heartland of North America and never to Mesoamerica. Now you know.

Now, I would have to look into your assertion that Joseph was on the lam and therefore wouldn't have been available to write these articles. And of course would have to read any rebuttal to your claims on this issue to get a clear idea of the possibilities to see how that fits in with the evidence that Joseph actually wrote the articles.
While Joseph Smith was in hiding, he still attended to all of his duties as Prophet and General Editor of the Times and Seasons. Here are accounts from historical records of his exact doings while he was in "hiding". While he was "hiding" he still was very active in his duties.


History of the Church volume 5:
Aug. 8th- Arrested w/ Rockwell

-Aug 17th 1842, corresponding with Wilson Law, asking

-Aug 17th, left from hiding at Brother Sayers and went to hide at Carlos Granger

Aug. 18th- wrote a letter to Newel K Whitney family which he says: “I am now at Carlos Graingers [Granger], Just back of Brother Hyrams farm, it is only one mile from town, the nights are very pleasant indeed, all three of y you come <can> come and See me in the fore part of the night”

-Aug 19th received visit from his aunt Temperance Mack, went to Nauvoo, and concluded to tarry at home until something further transpired relative to the designs of my persecutors.

Business as usual
-Aug 20th spent the day in his business office, and that evening had an interview with “Hyrum, William Law, Wilson Law, Newel K. Whitney and George Miller, on the illegality of the proceedings of our persecutors.”
Appointed Bishops, ordained Amasa Lyman, demoted John Bennet and Signey Rigdon re-affirmed faith in front of the “saints”

Aug 22nd- received another visit from Temperance Mack, went back to Nauvoo (when did he leave?) After receiving a letter from Emma. After dark, returned home.

Aug. 24th-At home all day; received a visit from Brothers Newel K. Whitney and Isaac Morley.
Aug. 26th- at home all day, had a meeting with some of the twelve (John Taylor was a 12 at the time)

Aug 27th-In the assembly room with some of the Twelve and others, who were preparing affidavits for the press.

Aug. 28th-At home. James Whitehead, Peter Melling, Tarleton Lewis, and Ezra Strong were received into the High Priests' quorum at Nauvoo

Aug 29th–went on the “stand” after Hyrum and spoke to the saints whom he hasn’t seen in three weeks. Said “I had been in Nauvoo all the while, and outwitted Bennett's associates, and attended to my own business in the city all the time.”
30th- at home all day

31st- at home, went for walk, went to relief society


Sept 1st- D/C 127:1 When I learn that the storm is fully blown over, then I will return to you again.

Sept. 2nd - spent the day at homeA report reached the city this afternoon that the sheriff was on his way to Nauvoo with an armed force.

Sept. 3rd- In the morning at home, in company with John F. Boynton. President Smith, accompanied by Brother Erastus Derby, left Brother Whitney's about nine o'clock, and went to Brother Edward Hunter's, where he was welcomed, and made comfortable by the family, and where he can be kept safe from the hands of his enemies
Sept. 6th- writes letter to the Church concerning baptisms for the dead, D/C 128
In the evening, William Clayton and Bishop Whitney called to see me concerning a settlement with Edward Hunter. Also Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, and Amasa Lyman, called to counsel concerning their mission to the branches and people abroad.

Sept. 7th- Early this morning Elders Adams and Rogers, of New York, brought me several letters—one from Dr. Willard Richards..Brothers Adams and Rogers called again this afternoon, and I related to them many interpositions of Divine Providence in my favor, &c.

Sept. 8th-Prophet writes letter to James Arlington Bennet “You speak also of Elder Foster, President of the Church in New York, in high terms; and of Dr. Bernhisel, in New York. These men I am acquainted with by information; and it warms my heart to know that you speak well of them, and, as you say, could be willing to associate with them for ever”

Sept. 9th- At 10 p.m. I received a very interesting visit from Emma, Amasa Lyman, George A. Smith and Wilson Law. After a conversation of two hours, I accompanied the brethren and Emma to my house, remaining there a few minutes to offer a blessing upon the heads of my sleeping children; then called a few minutes at the house of my cousin George A. Smith, on my way to my retreat at Edward Hunter's. John D. Parker accompanied me as guard.

Sept. 10.—Heber C. Kimball, George A. Smith, and Amasa Lyman started on their mission, and proceeded as far as Lima, where they met Brigham Young, who was preaching to a congregation. This was the day for the training of the companies of the Nauvoo Legion; and, lest I should be observed by the multitude passing and repassing, I kept very still. After dark, my wife sent a messenger and requested me to return home, as she thought I would be as safe there as anywhere; and I went safely home undiscovered.

Sept. 11th-—I was at home all day

Sept 12th. was at home all day in company with Brothers Adams and Rogers

Sept 13th -At home all day. Settled with Edward Hunter

Sept 14th-At home. Mr. Remmick gave me a deed of one half his landed property in Keokuk, though it will be a long time, if ever, before it will be of any benefit to me. Had a consultation with Calvin A. Warren, Esq. In the evening I received the following letter from General James Arlington Bennett:

Thursday, 15.—In council with C. A. Warren, Esq. Also counseled Uncle John Smith and Brother Daniel C. Davis to move immediately to Keokuk, and help to build up a city.
1. Friday, 16.—At home with Brother Rogers, who was painting my likeness.


Saturday, 17.—I was at home with Brother Rogers, who continued painting my portrait. Elder William Clayton wrote Governor Carlin a long letter, showing up the Missouri persecution and my sufferings in their true colors.

Sunday, 18.—At home. In the evening, received a visit from my mother.
1. Monday, 19, and Tuesday, 20.—With Brother Rogers, painting at my house.
Wednesday, 21.—In the large room over the store. In the evening had a visit from Elder John Taylor, who is just recovering from a long and very severe attack of sickness. I counseled Elder Taylor concerning the printing office, removing one press to Keokuk, &c.
Thursday, 22.—At home, arranging with Remmick concerning moving printing press to Keokuk, buying paper, &c.
Friday, 23.—At home. Visited by Elder Taylor.



24th-At home. Had a visit from Mr. Joseph Murdock, Sen., and lady concerning some land, &c., at St. Joseph.
Sunday, 25.—At the Grove. Spoke more than two hours, chiefly on the subject of persecution

27th At home. Nothing of importance transpired

Thursday, 29.—This day, Emma began to be sick with fever; consequently I kept in the house with her all day.
Friday, 30.—Emma is no better. I was with her all day.

Saturday, October 1.—This morning I had a very severe pain in my left side, and was not able to be about. Emma sick as usual. I had previously sent for the Temple committee to balance their accounts and ascertain how the Temple business was going on. Some reports had been circulated that the committee was not making a righteous disposition of property consecrated for the building of the Temple, and there appeared to be some dissatisfaction amongst the laborers. After carefully examining the accounts and enquiring into the manner of the proceedings of the committee, I expressed myself perfectly satisfied with them and their works. The books were balanced between the trustee and committee, and the wages of all agreed upon.

I said to the brethren that I was amenable to the state for the faithful discharge of my duties as trustee-in-trust, and that the Temple committee were accountable to me, and to no other authority; and they must not take notice of any complaints from any source, but let the complaints be made to me, if any were needed, and I would make things right. The parties separated perfectly satisfied, and I remarked that I would have a notice published, stating that I had examined their accounts and was satisfied, &c. It was also agreed that the recorder's office should be moved to the Temple, for the convenience of all.
In this day's Wasp I noticed the following letter from Elder Pratt:

Oct 2nd-The Quincy Whig also stated that Governor Reynolds has offered a reward, and published the governor's proclamation offering a reward of $300 for Joseph Smith, Jun., and $300 for Orrin P. Rockwell. Pg 166
Monday, 3.—Emma was a little better. I was with her all day.
Tuesday, 4.—Emma is very sick again. I attended with her all the day, being somewhat poorly myself.
Wednesday, 5.—My dear Emma was worse. Many fears were entertained that she would not recover.
Thursday, 6.—Emma is better; and although it is the day on which she generally grows worse, yet she appears considerably easier

7th- Accordingly, at twenty minutes after eight o'clock in the evening, I started away in company with Brothers John Taylor Wilson Law, and John D. Parker, and traveled through the night and part of next day; and, after a tedious journey, arrived at Father James Taylor's well and in good spirits.
This day the teachers met in Nauvoo, and organized into a quorum, by appointing Elisha Averett, president; James Huntsman and Elijah Averett, counselors ; Samuel Eggleston, scribe; and eleven members.
Monday, 10.—Elder Taylor returned to Nauvoo and found Emma gaining slowly

11th- published article in Times and Seasons about Temple Commiteed affairs

16th- I copy the following from the New York Herald

Thursday, 20.—Early this morning I arrived at home on a visit to my family. During the day I was visited by several of the brethren, who rejoiced to see me once more.

Rod Meldrum
captain of 10
Posts: 17

Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by Rod Meldrum »

livy111us wrote:
Etosha wrote:I was just reading over this thread and I've decided that I really don't care where they were - not enjoying the tone here.
I think you have more sense than most of us (including me). I have tried been guilty in the past, but am looking forward to have a respectful conversation with Rod, but have to say, it is difficult when you are continually maligned. One thing that keeps drawing back are the insults he throws at me. If he would be respectful, there would have been a lot of conversations I just would have avoided. But you are absolutely right, it does not matter where it happened and too many people get worked up over something that makes zero difference on our salvation.
Rod: Tyler, I will continue to use your real name rather than your screen name because you constantly hide behind your screen name on other blogs yet you always use my real name. I am going to reply in kind. No more hiding your, Tyler Livingston's, real identity for your ongoing attacks then you make it absolutely clear who you are attacking by using my real name. Why do you feel the need to hide your identity? What are you hiding from?

Now Tyler, you know that I have not gone online to seek you out and publish online nasties about you, as you must, if you are honest, have done against me. You have placed negative comments on most every website article, review or blog mentioning my name and this research. You can continue with your attempts to lie and deceive people about your proclaimed neutrality, your nonchalant "I don't care where it happened" claims, but your ACTIONS are not consistent with your words. If it does not mean anything to you, why have you, for more than 4 years now, done your level best to spread false and deceitful information everywhere my research shows up. You have taken it upon yourself to keep this information from getting out the membership of the Church, hiding behind your livy ID and claiming you are just neutral. That is not neutrality, that is activism and you are the most active in this than anyone else. In your post above you hide behind your claim that no ones salvation is dependant on it, yet you have spent many hundreds of hours attacking me. Why can't YOU just let it go? Why are you so invested in attacking me? Since to you this is so unimportant, why have you spent hundreds, if not thousands of hours of your time stalking me and then attacking me? Again, your claims and your actions are world's apart.

I find it almost funny that you now ask for civility and respectfulness after you, earlier in this thread, have attacked me and put links to your favorite Mesoamerican promotion organizations websites. That you continue to claim neutrality on the issue by FAIR is truly laughable! FAIR is a 100% Mesoamerican promotion front organization (in the BOM Geography realm) and the EVIDENCE and PROOF of this fact is their very own youtube channel with now has well over 250 video's all promoting Mesoamerica theories, and 0 (zero, nadda, nothing) promoting anything else. You can make false claims all day long, but "by their works you shall know them" and their works demonstrate the truth about their Mesoamerican promotion. Also, the fact that they leave out much of what Joseph Smith said - and did - in regards to BOM geography is further evidence of their unquestionable bias.

I have grown weary of your continued attacks and therefore in a few places where your Mesoamerican devotee's aren't in control of the conversation, have refuted and exposed just a slight few of your false claims. Since you have determined to continue with your attacks you might find more refuting them on our part. Why can't you simply present your case for Mesoamerica and let us present our case and let the members of the Church decide? Instead you feel compelled to use false information to tell members why you think it could not have possibly happened in North America... but what is rich is when many times your arguments against it are equally damning for your theories. I know one of the reasons you and other Mesoamerican promoters can't simply let Church members determine for themselves is because you believe that they are not smart enough or are incapable to come to the "correct" decision without your so-called "scholarly" help. Yet the Lord has said that every member of the Church has been given the give of the Holy Ghost which bears witness to the truth of all things. Why don't I ever hear you and your Mesoamerica promotion organizations simply follow this route in determining truth? What are you all so afraid of? You know that the vast majority of Church members, once they see the entirety of the information, are 95-98% likely to come to a belief in the Heartland Model...and that is why you and your Mesoamerican promotion organizations are so determined to discourage ANY review of my material, DVD's, books, website etc.

Are you saying that you are showing "respect" for my research when you make the kind of statements as you did early on in this thread...before I began posting? You shoot off your baseless attacks and when you are caught, then you ask for respect from me and then pretend you are upset by the tone of the conversation. Apparently, the tone of your attacks you consider to be respectful, and when I refute you I am being disrespectful, right? No Tyler, after 4 years of your unrelenting attacks I have grown weary of allowing you to continue to get away with the misleading and indeed deliberately lying comments you make.

Also, Tyler, you know that I have even tried to 'wave the white flag' and several times offered to have you over for dinner so we could discuss our differences in private, but you are instead determined and insist on putting our differences all up online so the world can "watch the Church's High Priests slugging it out" as one anti-Mormon site has mentioned. I have been trying to avoid such public conflict, you seem to relish in it, going out of your way to cause it. They are just thrilled with watching we faithful Church members bad mouthing each other. It presents such a wonderful view of the Church to the world, don't you think, Tyler? Of course I'm being sarcastic here, because I, for one, would rather see us work out our differences off-line, where we can have our disagreements outside of the public square and work towards reconciliation, but you and your Mesoamerican co-horts have refused to even allow me to come and present my research to your organizations, to print any rebuttals, to speak at your conferences, or even meet in person.

The only Mesoamerica promotion person I've been able to have a face-to-face meeting with in 4 years is Daniel Petersen and we, this past spring, had a nice, cordial and respectful conversation over lunch which I bought and then gave him about $200 of free materials for his review. To date I've never heard a peep back from him. We disagree, but I think Dan is a nice fellow. You, on the other hand have shunned my offers and have never reciprocated. You want contention and everywhere you post your comments the contention level rises many notches. You thrive on it, you seem to crave it and I am sorry, but I don't.

larsenb
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10813
Location: Between here and Standing Rock

Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by larsenb »

Benjamin Harrison wrote:Another problem with N. America is the mountain range that is described in the BOM that runs from east to . . . . .
Very interesting sculpture of Kokopelli. Do you know who did it and where it is located? Couldn't get it to reproduce here.

livy111us
captain of 100
Posts: 288

Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by livy111us »

Hello Rod,
So, after reading your long post, I take it you are declining a respectful conversation based on evidence?

Also, you are not your theory. I disagree with your theory and has no bering as to my feelings about you. When I provide evidence against your theory, that is not me talking badly about you. If I've done something in the past that has offended you, I sincerely apologize. I do, however, enjoy speaking about BOM geography. You have gotten me interested in it and have studied it at length since we first spoke. You asked that your facts be checked, so I did and came to the opposite conclusion that you have. That doesn't mean I dislike you, quite the contrary. It means I disagree with you. Since joining this conversation, I've had to change my beliefs numerous times as new facts are brought to my attention. When you, or others criticize my beliefs, I take them to heart and study them out. If they hold up then I alter my beliefs on BOM geography. It is really a refining process that I am grateful for. If I were to automatically discard all information that disagreed with me, I would not get closer to the truth but would be stuck in a rut. If I or someone else says something that shows a certain aspect of your theory to be wrong, then I would wish that you would refine your theory to make it stronger. We can all use constructive criticisms. But, for you to be as dis-respectful to me as you are because I disagree with your theory does not show me and others that you are willing to accept any fact that contradicts your theory, but are so set in it that facts no longer matter. All I hope for is cordial dialogue that we may learn from each other. I know I can learn from you, but it is hard to get past the continual insults you throw at me, and condescending words. Let me plead with you again. Let's have a cordial conversation that is based on the evidence. No insults, and disrespect. Just you and me discussing the issues. Is this possible?

BTW, I am still more than happy to meet with you (again). I apologized for having ill-health and not being able to make the dinner appointment. You also live quite a ways from me, but am happy to meet somewhere in the middle if you'd like.
God bless,
livy

Rod Meldrum
captain of 10
Posts: 17

Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by Rod Meldrum »

Benjamin Harrison wrote:DR. Jones: SEE: Pool of the rain God Altar of un-hewn limestone found in Chemenche, Mexico. Also are the Izapa stella # 5 in Guatemala depicting Lehi's Dream of the tree of Life written in Chiasmic form no less. Other ruins glyphs that have been found are also in chiasmic form as well.
tree of life.jpg
Izapa stella 5.png
On H.W. Hunters desk.jpg
I guess you have to google it as I can't get a link to work here. Academia.edu/pool-of-the-rain-god-stuccoed-altar-aguacatal-chemeche-mexico.

Even honest Mesoamerican scholars have refuted the validity of Stella #5 as being a "Lehi stone" see "A New Artistic Rendering of Izapa Stela 5: A Step toward Improved Interpretation" by John E. Clark at http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... m=1&id=181. It is wishful thinking on the part of some over-zealous Mesoamerican promoters.

In contrast, readers may want to take a close examination of the validation of the Bat Creek Stone recently completed through a full scientific analysis of the stone inscribed with ancient Hebrew (one of the two languages mentioned in the BOM) and recovered in an official archaeological dig by the Smithsonian Institution. The analysis was done by American Petrographic Services of St. Paul, MN at the McClung Museum on the campus of Tennessee State University. You can read the entire article, including links to the published analysis in the article "Hebrew Written Language CONFIRMED in Hopewell Mound in Tennessee!" found at http://www.firmlds.org/feature.php?id=23. This is the first and ONLY confirmed Hebrew anywhere in the America's and it recovered in an archaeological dig in Tennessee, USA! Unlike our Mesoamerican promoters, this verification was completed without ANY Mormon involvement whatever. This was not done by LDS "scholars" as is virtually everything presented in support of Mesoamerican archaeology. When you read articles in support of Mesoamerican theories, they most often are quoting themselves. Take a look at the bibliographies and see how many main-stream journals they are quoting. You might be surprised at how few there are. This is not scholarship. This is cronyism and circular reasoning.

livy111us
captain of 100
Posts: 288

Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by livy111us »

Have you read the work of John Sorenson? He very rarely quotes LDS scholars, but uses mainstream archaeology and science. Same thing with Brant Gardner. You cannot dismiss all Mesoamerican evidence by inaccurately saying they quote themselves. You are again trying to dissuade people from a Mesoamerican theory without evidence for your claim as wrong as it is.
Regarding the Bat Creek Stone, Scott Wolter of American Petrographic Services deliberately avoids peer review. One friend wrote "It appears to me that there are two fundamental errors in the report, the first being that they take the word of Emmett basedon his qualifications and appear to simply dismiss the other claims as speculations (after first poisoning the well). Thus they make the assumption the mound was undisturbed at the time of the finding of the stone, that the stone was where JE claimed it was etc.

Second, the SEM may demonstrate a lack of residue in the set of lettering, thus differentiating them from the scratches added after it was allegedly found, but I don't see how that demonstrates weathering over a long period of time especially when the item is described as polished."


Personally, I am hoping it is authentic, but there are enough questions to be answered that keep me from accepting it wholeheartedly. Fraudulent items were prevalent during this time period. I actually began using at evidence for The Book of Mormon over 10 years ago to answer questions. It was a slam dunk. The Book of Mormon said that there were Hebrews in the Americas and now we found evidence of the Hebrew language here. What more could I ask for? But after I actually started digging into it's authenticity, I began to doubt it more and more. I cannot fully discount it, but the evidence seems to be in favor of it being a forgery. I have read everything I have found both for and against the Batcreek stones authenticity before seriously forming an opinion on it. I believe it could be a forgery for many reasons. It was found by John Emmert under the head of a skeleton.There was no archaeological team, no photos, no field notes, no strat mapping or anything that archaeologists do, and no witnesses there to back up Emmert. Emmert was actually fired in 1887 for drunkenness and was very eager to get his job back. Then he finds this stone which just so happens to support his bosses view. He was also familiar with forgeries being involved in the discovering forgeries of pipes and was the one who identified them as such. He knew how to identify them and would also know how others would identify them.
Among the Batcreek stone was found two brass bracelets which current metallurgical analysis show the exact same proportion of copper and zinc in them that were being produced during that time period all over England.
What about the Hebrew writing on it (I don't buy into the Cherokee argument, it is paleo-Hebrew)? There is a freemasonry publication in 1870 that has a picture of a transcription from a Jewish revolt coin which is almost an exact match for what is found on the Batcreek stone. It looks like someone just copied the letters from this book that was available at that time. You can see a side by side comparison between the BCS and the book here: http://www.preteristarchive.com/Ancient ... stone.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Read here from what archaeologist's have to say about it. http://books.google.com/books?id=RlRz2s ... &q&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

larsenb
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10813
Location: Between here and Standing Rock

Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by larsenb »

Rod Meldrum wrote:
Also, before putting to much stock in the FARMS Review attacks against the Heartland Model, you might want to know that all those involved with the editorial board of the publication were summarily fired from the Church's BYU Maxwell Institute for undisclosed reasons. However, what IS known is that they spent months in assembling hundreds of pages of attack articles against a member of the Church in excellent standing while using Church funds to promote their own theories, which runs contrary to the Church's official position of neutrality on Book of Mormon geography. The issue bearing the attacks was some 8 months behind schedule for undisclosed reasons.

Find out the facts and the truth about their firings from their own words at the links included in this URL http://www.firmlds.org/feature.php?id=24 and a reply to the shameless attack article by the now defunct and terminated FARMS Review.
This whole cavalier dismissal of Dr. Peterson (and others) from The Maxwell Institute is disturbing. It reminds me of how Dr. Steve Jones was treated by people representing and allied with BYU. Daniel Peterson's letter to Bradford and subsequent posts on his blog certainly underscores his legitimate grievances. Some of those dismissed didn't even get an email notification. Ugh to the maximum!

Whether it had anything to do with articles maligning you (and Smith's was over the top, no doubt about it), is really beside the point that Peterson and his fellows were treated so shabbily. And I think it was Livy111 that provided good evidence that your thesis on this point doesn't quite hold up.

They obviously made a strategic mistake in aligning FARMS with BYU. It was never any mystery that FARMS was started by people picking up on where others such as Wells Jakeman and Christiansen left off; people who favored the Mesoamerican model. So what. That so many people who had put in multiple years (upwards to 30+ years for some) into FARMS to be treated so poorly is really unconscionable.

I've read quite a few articles from FARMS people rebutting some of your ideas and was never struck that they were ad hominem in intent.

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Benjamin Harrison
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by Benjamin Harrison »

LaresenB: Here you go.
Kokopelli Moroni.jpg
sculpture by, John Coleman at the McLarry Fine art Center in Santa Fe, NM

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