Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

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Rod Meldrum
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by Rod Meldrum »

[quote="coachmarc"]Four seasons aren't mentioned specifically, but here are some interesting scriptures from which you can research seasons of grain, fruit, war, fevers and beasts. Interesting that Alma 46 specifies some seasons of the year. That sounds like more than two seasons to me:

The plants/crops mentioned in the Book of Mormon, namely wheat, barley and grapes for making wine DO NOT GROW down in the tropical climates of Mesoamerica. They require a temperate climate, such as America's Heartland to grow. There are no barley or wheat crops grown in Mesoamerica today because they require cold seasons. Grapes, while livy will tell you that they existed in Mesoamerica, were nonetheless NEVER a significant or even known crop by the Mayan's. There is no evidence that they even knew what grapes were, much less ever made wine out of it. The Mayan's liquor of choice came from the milky white gel of a relative of the Agave or Aloe Vera plant that grows to monstrous proportions in Mesoland. The thing is... all of these crops were absolutely essential and necessary to the Nephites claimed living of the Law of Moses, yet none of them are found in Mesoamerica. That is another HUGE clue to the geography and climate. Would the Lord have sent his covenant and chosen people to a "Promised Land" which was completely devoid of nearly every single item they would have been required to have in order to live the Laws of Moses, such as sheep, goats, these aforementioned plants, etc? I don't think the Lord is very big on substitutes...just ask Cain how it worked out for him! :))
Last edited by Rod Meldrum on November 10th, 2012, 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Rod Meldrum
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Posts: 17

Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by Rod Meldrum »

livy111us wrote:I am curious why the Kennewick man and Nevada woman bring you to believe in a Great Lakes setting for The Book of Mormon? They lived no where near the Great Lakes region but lived thousands of miles away.

Also, white indians have also been found in Central and South America.
The reason it is significant, since you apparently can't understand why, is because they have European features and were found in NORTH AMERICA, not Central or South America where they have found no such evidence for European features among the ancients of the Book of Mormon time frames there. Also, I suppose with your small geography mindset you can't consider that they may have simply traveled there from the Heartland area. It is probably closer to get there from Missouri than from Guatemala, wouldn't you agree?

They (Kennewick man) also happens to have had haplogroup X DNA, which is clearly a European DNA type. To date in Mesoamerica there has been found zero, nadda, zilch, evidence for ANY European or Semitic DNA types or lineages. Yet 7 times the BoM prophets revealed that there would be a "remnant of the House of Israel" remaining on the Promised Land in the latter days...and that they would NOT be destroyed "according to the flesh." That sounds like a genetic remnant to me!

Yet livy is so desperate to hang onto the sinking Mesoamerican theories that he and his buddies will throw those prophecies right under the Mesoamerica promotion bus if it means they can continue with their belief that Guatemala is the location for the future New Jerusalem! See Ether 13:6 and then read D&C 84:1-4 for comparison. Guatemala is THOUSANDS OF MILES away from the Book of Mormon lands where the New Jerusalem will be built! Again, livy conveniently ignores this massive scriptural problem with his dogmatic theories.

Yes, there have been a few small groups of people in Mesoamerica with partial albino genetic inheritances, but the Algonquian tribes in North America are nearly indistinguishable from European populations such as Italians and Israeli's. Their facial bone structure is also not Asian, but European or Semitic. When the early explorers met them, they were wearing TURBANS on their heads! Wonder where THAT practice came from?
Last edited by Rod Meldrum on November 10th, 2012, 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Rod Meldrum
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Posts: 17

Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by Rod Meldrum »

Haddomr wrote:
The problem the geneticists, you quote in your article, have is with carbon dating. Rod Meldrum addresses that in his video by talking about the maternal DNA done on a Russian CZAR and showing that Adam and Eve would be 6000 years ago or so, not 10's of thousands, hundreds of thousands or millions of years ago. You seem to be big on attacking Meldrum and not his arguments. You also use exaggeration "medical books from the 1800's".

Livy111us responds:
So you are basing your argument on Meldrum who has never studied genetics at a college level, while dismissing experts in their field who have 10 years of school and a lifetime of experience? I am not “attacking” Meldrum as you say, but pointing out obvious problems that cause a faulty conclusion. You are not attacking someone by saying that they are not qualified and providing evidence for that claim. It *is* an attack to say that they are ugly, or wear over-sized shoes so you should not listen to them. But my points are very pertinent to this conversation. You wouldn’t go have surgery by someone who has never even taken a college course, but read a few things on the internet would you? Meldrum likes to portray himself a victim instead of looking at the evidence for and against his theory.
Also, it is not an exaggeration to say he is using old science and my example stands. He is using information that was introduced in the infancy of population genetics that has since been abandoned. As another example, you can’t convince people the earth is flat because we have discovered new information which contradicts that theory. You can make a case for a flat earth if you use information that pre-dates the discovery that the earth is round, but that is using old science that is out of date. Meldrum is using old science that is out of date.
You have to remember, that the same science he is disputing is the same science that he is using to date the Hopewell civilization to BOM time periods. If we were to accept his theory on timing of genetics being MUCH younger than he would like, that would also mean that science should actually place the Hopewell MUCH earlier than the timing of The Book of Mormon. They should actually date to around 1,000 AD, 600 years AFTER the end of The Book of Mormon. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

Rod: Typical livy baloney... you ARE attacking me. You are trying to say that I am an uneducated fool and therefore can be dismissed without question. It is nothing less than a personal attack when you make claims that I don't understand the science, that I refuse to accept your Mesoamerican based interpretations, that I consider the idea that humans evolved from chimps repugnant, which is the basis for the DNA dating that you are promoting and that I don't accept due to the temple endowment ceremonies, and multiple accounts of creation in the scriptures and Adams being placed on earth only 6,000 years ago. I know scripturally that haplogroup X didn't magically show up here in America 40,000 years ago because that would have been about 36,000 years before the first man on the planet showed up. The DNA dating is based on the ASSUMPTION that man and chimps shared a common ancestor 5-6 million years ago and all the DNA mutation rates are based upon that assumption. You accept it. I don't. You apparently don't even know the difference between carbon dating and phylogenetic dating methods, or you wouldn't even have made the ridiculous comparison of the Hopewell's CARBON dating (which is generally fairly accurate after Noah's flood era, but not before for reasons I won't go into now) with the haplogroup X DNA's phylogenetic dating! This demonstrates, for all to see, your incompetence in even understanding the dating methods involved in your statement. Yet you hold yourself out as some kind of DNA expert and make a DVD documentary interviewing all your Mesoamerican promotion "experts" which you thought would compete with your sales which is why you decided to begin attacking me many years ago? Really? FYI - The Hopewells carbon date directly into Book of Mormon time frames. The haplogroup X DNA's EXTRAPOLATED arrival date is based on the the assumed split of humans from monkeys and the extrapolated and assumed rate of mutation, wherein lies the problem. But you would rather just lump them both in together in order to ATTACK my proclaimed (by you) lack of knowledge of the subject material. Bad form.

It is so easy to just throw out there into cyberland that my research is out of date, and yes, the genetics community has manufactured ways of massaging the DNA dating to fit their preconceived models, but that does not make the facts go away as you are wont to assume.

Your little game of asking if someone would rather have a trained surgeon work on them or a lesser trained person is ridiculous. We are not talking about surgery, but ideas. Are you saying that just because someone has not been trained that they are incapable of being trained...that they are not mentally capable of learning everything a doctor has learned just because they have not been formerly trained? How many millions of times have new ideas and inventions been discovered and produced by experts who were not "trained in the ministry"? In fact, in the realms we are dealing with, sometimes it is an advantage not to have been "trained" that certain things cannot be done or produced or in something that is false. The world is literally full of things that the "experts" claimed could never work. So by your standard we shouldn't have airplanes or cars or helicopters or electricity or cell phones. All of these were thought by "experts" not to be possible, viable, or feasible at some point in their progress. You are the one on the sidelines telling everyone it can't be done while those you castigate are making it happen right before your eyes. The interesting thing is that there are some who will willfully ignore it and continue to claim the "earth is flat" even against overwhelming evidence, and there are those who see the truth and abandon former false ideas. We can all see what camp you are in. You are the flat earther, desperately clinging to the dying Mesoamerican models against all facts, and evidence. When are you going to admit the earth is not flat, and that Mesoamerican is not the "nation above all other nations" or the "land of liberty" prophesied of by Book of Mormon prophets?

Haddomr wrote:
Nothing wrong with Meldrum's argument here.

Livy111us responds:
Actually there is. I pointed out that the Hopewell, whom Meldrum believes are BOM peoples, were a very small population spread out over a very large area. They numbered about 1 person per square mile. Compare that to the Nephites alone who had huge cities that consisted of tens of thousands of people, fighting in battles where millions were slain. As I said before, the ENTIRE Hopewell civilization would have been destroyed if they fought in one single Book of Mormon battle. That in itself disqualifies them for BOM people. Since you didn’t read the articles I posted, here is one on this topic again that I would recommend. http://www.bmaf.org/node/394" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
If you are really looking for BOM geography, you need to look at all the facts and weigh them accordingly. You should not accept the teachings of one man wholeheartedly as doctrine and dismiss any and all evidence that contradicts it. That will not bring you to the home of the Nephites, only the home of where they want the Nephites to be.

Rod: Well put, livy...one should most definitely NOT accept the bias of one man wholeheartedly as doctrine and dismiss all evidence that contradicts it. The hard facts are that these supposed "small bands of hunter-gatherers" as you are wont to call them moved more earth than any other civilization of their era. Had these massive earthworks been found anywhere else in the world no one would question that it would have taken hundreds of thousands if not millions of people to build them. Your article uses outdated population sources. You should already know this because I already posted the more resent findings from the worlds most prestigious science journal "Science" just last year that debunks your old outdated claims from 1980something. Talk about old using old material...you are guilty of it right here!

Haddomr wrote:
Thanks for adding that the BOM came from the Hill Cumorah, I forgot to mention that. The Ed Goble quote was lost on me...the logic doesn't have enough information to make sense, try to make your statements more coherent so I can understand them. The Levi Hancock quote was good and supportive of the Meldrum position.

Livy111us responds:
No problem. We should examine all the evidence whether we like it or not and I am more than willing to look at others beliefs. Obviously, no one has a problem that The Book of Mormon came from Cumorah, but you are welcome anyway.
The Levi Hancock journal is not supportive of Meldrums geography but actually places The Book of Mormon far South of where he believes it to be. Let me explain why. The land of Desolation was far North of BOM lands, and north of the Narrow Neck of land. That means that the narrow neck you mentioned earlier and believe to be “the” narrow neck, is in the wrong place. The narrow neck cannot be north of Desolation. That is the first problem. The second problem is that since it is the land Desolation is far north of BOM lands, that means that the events in The Book of Mormon took place south of that area. By placing The BOM south of that area excludes the Great Lakes area for possible BOM geography.

Rod: The BIGGEST problem is that is nothing more than a SECOND HAND account and cannot EVER be considered as more authoritative than Joseph Smith's own words! We don't know exactly what Levi heard or what he understood the prophet to have meant. To establish an entire theory of geography based on a second hand account is absurd, but, like all Mesoamerican theories, is just the kind of sandy foundation you typically like to build your house upon. I prefer to use first hand written accounts as my primary foundations. You prefer speculations. No wonder you love the Mesoamerican theories so much!

Haddomr wrote:
I don't think it says the narrow neck is East-West in the BOM. North-South works if it leads to the land northward. See Alma 63:5
5 And it came to pass that Hagoth, he being an exceedingly curious man, therefore he went forth and built him an exceedingly large ship, on the borders of the land Bountiful, by the land Desolation, and launched it forth into the west sea, by the narrow neck which led into the land northward.

Livy111us responded:
You are exactly right! The narrow neck is SOUTH of the hill Cumorah. But if you are using the narrow neck by the Great Lakes, that means that Cumorah is due East of the narrow neck of land. Look at a map. You will see the narrow neck and Cumorah are East-West of each other, not north-south like The Book of Mormon requires.

Rod: Again another wondrous extrapolation and interpretation without basis in scripture livy, you are on a roll! Could not the narrow neck of land that LEADS into or out of the land northward or southward have nevertheless been nearly east or west? In real life it is obvious that it very well could. When given the barriers to travel by the Great Lakes, in order to go from lets say Buffalo, NY to lets say Chicago, IL at the southern end of Lake Michigan, the shortest route would take you between Lakes Ontario and Erie. I think that we would all agree that Chicago is "southward" of Buffalo, but to get their you''d have to go west. Isn't it possible that such a scenario was what was being described in the Book of Mormon?

Also, there is the issue of whether or not the "narrow neck" of land is even between two seas! Nowhere does the text so state...the only sea mentioned is the sea on the west while no eastern sea is mentioned for the other side. It is entirely possible that the narrow neck was between a western sea and some other obstruction to travel or a valley or something else that could be crossed in either a day or a day and a half (see Hel. 3:8 which discusses four cardinal seas, each sea being specifically mentioned, which is normal for Hebrew language), also Ether 10:20 which speaks of the sea "dividing the land" (where does this occur in Mesoamerica? There the lands divide the two seas. Alma 22:32 and Hel. 4:7 ONLY specifically mention a WEST sea, but neither specifically mention an east sea.


Haddomr wrote:
The point is that Meldrum could be right and likely is. Your argument that he could be wrong is no argument at all. Meldrum has too many points that all add up.

Livy111us responds:
He does have quite a few points, at least on the surface. I am someone who has studied most every point of his extensively I can honestly say, very little is actually what he portrays it to be and cannot stand to the slightest scrutiny. If his material was solid, I would be the first one to promote his theory in every venue I have access to, produce DVD’s on my own dime and donate all proceeds to his cause, and be his biggest proponent. My goal is to help break down walls on non-members so the Spirit can work on them, and believe that evidences can do that. I don’t care where The Book of Mormon took place but want solid evidences so I can use them honestly in missionary work. I was very disappointed to see SO many errors in his material that I feel it necessary to let others know that they are being duped by him. I don’t care if you believe The BOM took place in New York, Peru, Mesoamerica, or Baja California because it has absolutely no effect on yours or my salvation. I do have a problem when someone is pulling the wool over others eyes deliberately, no matter what the subject is.

Rod: livy...you are bold face lying here. You have no intention of ever looking objectively at my research and you have proven yourself not to even be familiar with my research. The entire argument about the narrow neck I have covered in some detail in my DVD series. You may have watched my original DNA Evidence for Book of Mormon Geography DVD I released in 2007 and for which you and your FAIR friends determined to spend eight months in attacking because you felt slighted that my DVD was gaining much more support than your DVD, but have you seen either my 5 DVD series or my 6 DVD series? If so, you need to go review them again because it is obvious to me that you are either uniformed about the research, are ignoring what I have presented, or are deliberately misleading people. You claim to want the spirit and to do missionary work, yet you spend almost all your 'spare' time attacking a fellow priesthood holder in the Church because your opinion doesn't match with his. You have literally spent hundreds of hours finding and attacking me and everything I have done online. THAT is YOUR MISSION...admit it! Just be honest and admit it.

If you truly want to break down the walls of non-members you might want to try not shoving down their throats the Mesoamerican spin and excuses such as that horses are actually pigs (tapirs and which is laughable because to people living the Law of Moses pigs are unclean animals and would require a cleansing process each time it was touched...oh, did you Mesoamerica promoters forget that fact?), that steel swords are nevertheless wooden clubs with embedded obsidian shards, that the Mayan glyph system had anything to do with the Book of Mormon languages of Hebrew and Reformed Egyptian, and that there will never be a DNA remnant of the House of Israel contrary to the prophecies in the Book of Mormon. While you are at it, maybe it would be nice if you would not try to make Joseph Smith out to be a charlatan by claiming he changed is mind about his proclaimed revelations wherein he openly writes of North America as the setting of the Book of Mormon and North American Indians as the remnant. Geneticists know that the Indian tribes spoken of by the Prophet Joseph Smith did NOT come up from Mesoamerica...they are the actual descendants of the Hopewell Mound builder population as verified by DNA analysis. You probably don't even know that fact do you, livy?

So stop throwing Joseph Smith under the Mesoamerican bus and read his written statements and better yet, follow is actions. Where did he and the Lord send the first missionaries "unto the Lamanites"? Do you really think that the LORD doesn't know where the true remnant of the House of Israel is located?! Then WHY did the Lord send those first missionaries to America's Heartland while completely failing to send a single missionary unto "Lamanites" in Mesoamerica? Why, after all these years of stalking me haven't you answered those questions with your self - proclaimed "open mind"? Simple answer, you don't like me and you don't really want to know. You put your trust in your Mesoamerican pals and ignore the actual research, the scriptures the prophecies and the science. You are a true blue Mesoamericanist first and Mormon apologist after.
Last edited by Rod Meldrum on November 10th, 2012, 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Rod Meldrum
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by Rod Meldrum »

Called to Serve wrote:They are trifling if you are trying to learn the gospel. But if you are trying to figure out where the Nephites lived, they're vital.

No one's saying that we have to know where the Nephites and Lamanites lived in order to obtain salvation or anything. It's just fun to think about. That can be one of the things when the Savior comes again and reveals all things to us we can say--yeah, I got that one! Or not. Just fun. Not serious.
Rod: And that is where I disagree. While it may be true that the location of the true lands of the Book of Mormon may not be critical to your salvation or mine personally, I would hardly call it just "fun" or "not serious" when the Book of Mormon prophets were trying so desperately to warn a particular nation, that they had seen in vision, not to let the "secret combinations" get above them as had been the cause of so much death and destruction among their civilizations.

The ancient prophets made is absolutely clear which nation they were attempting to warn by deliberately calling it 8 times "the land of liberty" a land of "prosperity" and "security" a "mighty Gentile nation above all other nations" so that we could not mistake which nation they were trying so hard to warn! Does anyone really think that those descriptions better fit Guatemala or Mexico than the United States of America? If we don't know what nation they were trying to warn, then how are the inhabitants of that nation going to understand one of the critically important messages in the book. Do you really think that its just a 'fun' exercise that the ancient prophets considered "not serious"? Really?

It may be a game to Mesoamerican theorists, but I feel that such an attitude is a travesty because of their theories trying to tie the sacred and covenant Promised Land of God to the impoverished, poor and drug lord torn and run nations of Guatemala or Mexico. Uninformed members of the Church who live in the true nation that the ancient prophets were trying to warn may think that "where" doesn't matter, that its nothing more than a entertaining hobby, but I don't think that the ancient prophets considered it trivial, fun or unimportant.

I disagree with the premise that it is not important. EVERYTHING written in the Book of Mormon is important or the ancients would not have put it in! I think it vitally important that we understand that the prophecies, the promises, the covenants, and the judgments of God are all about THIS nation, the United States of America and the Lord's ancient prophets were desperately trying to warn us - knowing that should the United States fall, it would directly and absolutely impact the ability of the Church to accomplish its mission and calling to take the gospel to the ends of the earth. Please keep that in mind before making the claim next time that this is all about fun and games. To many of us, it is not. Its about heeding and understanding God's warnings for our day and helping others understand it as well. Its about the prophecies contained in the Book of Mormon which Mesoamerican theorists are loathe to even consider as evidence of the lands of the Book of Mormon, preferring instead to argue about narrow necks of land and subjective interpretations of geographical passages.
Last edited by Rod Meldrum on November 10th, 2012, 4:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Rod Meldrum
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by Rod Meldrum »

livy111us wrote:As long as you have that attitude, that is great. But I just spoke to someone yesterday who subscribes to Meldrums Great Lakes theory who believes BOM geography is central to the Gospel. As long as we study it with the understanding that it is interesting and fun to toss ideas around, then there is no harm. When you take it so seriously that you think those who disagree with you are in apostasy then you are looking beyond the mark.
I have never claimed that Mesoamerican theorists are in apostasy, and while I agree that its geography may not be central to the gospel message, to not take the Promised and Covenant lands of the Book of Mormon, and the latter-day nation that would occupy those lands, warnings seriously, I believe, implies a lack of understanding and trivialization of the effort put forth by ancient prophets to warn that nation. When you ignore the prophecies in order to promote a personal geography theory that places the covenant lands somewhere other than where the prophecies are meant, then I think you are not even looking towards the mark, much less beyond it.
Last edited by Rod Meldrum on November 10th, 2012, 4:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Rod Meldrum
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by Rod Meldrum »

Helaman2000 wrote:Rod Meldrum based his theory on my book that I wrote in conjunction with Wayne May, and fortunately for me or unfortunately for heartland theorists, I have retracted it, but Meldrum and May still push it. You may want to know why I went to all the trouble to write such a book, and then only ended up retracting it before you choose to believe in Meldrum's take on it.
haddomr wrote:I think Rod Meldrum is right and the place was by the Great Lakes in the USA. The DNA matches, they found city ruins with walls on top of earthen works in the eastern US near the Great Lakes, like the BOM describes. JS talked about Zelph the white Lamanite on Zion's march, the 4 seasons of the BOM are in North America and South America has only two seasons. The distance between two of the Great Lakes, the narrow neck of land is a day and a half apart. The oceans in the BOM are described as the great deep and seas (Great Lakes) are like the size of the Red sea and the dead sea. I think it all adds up. Just my opinion. Of course there was 1000 years from when the BOM ended and when Columbus discoverd America, lots can happen in 1000 years. :)
Rod: Ed, for the record, I had never heard of either you or Wayne May before coming to the conclusion that the lands had to be in the Heartland of North America. The DNA research I was doing was leading in that direction and I have always known that the Promised Land was the United States, as do most Mormon's who have not been indoctrinated with Mesoamerican theories. This is not the first time you have made this inaccurate accusation...that I based my theory on yours and Waynes, but it is simply incorrect. I was already doing presentations before I met Wayne at a presentation in the Provo Library. It was only then that I realized that there were others who already believed as I had found. Ed, everyone is entitled to their own opinions and obviously you have yours and I have mine, but please stop saying that I somehow plagiarized your theory. The fact is that I and Wayne and Bruce Porter and many others have come to the same conclusion independent of each other. I don't want to "burst your bubble" but I did not base my theory on your book. You may be short-changing yourself and your previous work by not continuing to standing with it. With all that is coming out now, I can't help but think you and I ought to get back together again and take a new look at it. I think you'll be happy you did. Keep up the good work!
Last edited by Rod Meldrum on November 10th, 2012, 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by Rod Meldrum »

livy111us wrote:Hello Ed,
I agree with your comments. As the link stated, it was taken from two separate individuals who recorded it years later. It is a third hand account but falls in line with what Joseph Smith was teaching towards the end of his life. I cannot say I completely accept the maps as authentic, but find them interesting. I was able to go the the Church archives and research them but did not come out with a definite answer. Hopefully one day we will be able to determine it's authenticity or not.
Hey livy, why don't you tell everybody about what Joseph Smith really "taught" toward the end of his life? I'll help you out since neither you nor any of your Mesoamerica promotion team has ever had either the knowledge, or the honesty, to make it known.

From Joseph Smith's personal diary entry, Thursday, May 23rd, 1844 (just one month before his martyrdom).

"1 P.M. held council with the Indians Sac & Fox in my back kitchen. They told me - You are a big chief. You preach a great deal so say great spirit. I [Joseph Smith] Replied. Great Spirit wants you to be united and live in peace. [I} found a book, (presenting the Book of Mormon) which told me about your fathers & Great Spirit told me."

The thing that makes this so interesting is that the Prophet had met with the Sac & Fox Indians clear back in 1841, before all the Times and Seasons articles about Guatemala by unknown authors, wherein Joseph states, "I accordingly went down, and met Keokuk, Kis-ku-Kosh, Appenoose, and about one hundred chiefs and braves of those tribes, with their families. At the landing, I was introduced by Brother Hyrum to them; and after salutations, I conducted them to the meeting grounds in the grove, and instructed them in many things WHICH THE LORD HAD REVEALED UNTO ME CONCERNING THEIR FATHERS, AND THE PROMISES THAT WERE MADE CONCERNING THEM IN THE BOOK OF MORMON."

So livy and your Mesoamerican promotion crew... please explain again how Joseph Smith:
1. never declared revelation (which he emphatically did in both of these first hand historical accounts) and
2. how he supposedly changed his mind after the 1842 Times and Seasons articles (which he didn't write and was historically known to have been in hiding from the law at the time) and
3. how he was teaching something different than what he had previously taught and that he also later claimed to have known by revelation from the Lord (which in these two accounts his words are nearly identical and unchanged in his knowledge and understanding of who the actual remnant of the House of Israel is).

BTW - the Sac & Fox are among the Algonquian tribes that have the haplogroup X DNA and that have been shown to be genetically descended from the Hopewell civilization (i.e. Nephites/Lamanites). And in case you missed it, you might want to pull up the talk by Elder Larry Echohawk from the Saturday afternoon conference talk of 2012, because guess what? He is a Pawnee Indian of the Cherokee Tribe who are also Algonquian and that have the haplogroup X DNA type and he came out directly and claimed that he is a remnant of the House of Israel, which was obviously reviewed and approved by the First Presidency. I was alerted to the fact that it was going to happen prior to the conference and told to look for it. You might want to get a clue, livy and stop kicking against the truth. Your faulty "internal model" interpretations are no match for the prophecies and Joseph Smith's statements which all support our Heartland Model theory. I'll be interested to read how you are going to "spin" this one! Happy trails! Contrary to Mesoamerican theorists who gleefully proclaim that Joseph was ignorant and uneducated about where the lands of the Book of Mormon were located...Joseph Knew! The Lord Knew! And they both sent those first missionaries unto the Lamanite remnant in the Heartland of North America and never to Mesoamerica. Now you know.
Last edited by Rod Meldrum on November 10th, 2012, 4:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by Rod Meldrum »

Among Mesoamericanists, the Sidon river issue is a hot topic, with some believing in the Grijalva and some the Usumacinta. I am squarely in the Usumacinta camp.

Ed Goble
Rod: Dear Ed, squabbling over whether the River Sidon of the Book of Mormon was the Grijalva or the Usamacinta river is tantamount to arguing over whether unicorns have one horn or two. Just sayin' ;) Keep the faith! =))

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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

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Thanks for joining the discussion Rod. I like the information you present, especially because it fits with the Book of Mormon prophecies about the United States. And because I believe Joseph Smith is a prophet and that he taught this as well.

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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

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Awsome Rod!

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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

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BrianM wrote:Thanks for joining the discussion Rod. I like the information you present, especially because it fits with the fact that the Book of Mormon prophecies about the land fit with the United States. And because I believe Joseph Smith is a prophet and that he taught this as well.
Yes, a big AMEN to this!

I am so glad you have joined us, Rod; welcome! And please stick around and post often! :)

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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

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Welcome, Rod. Thank you for all your input so far.

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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by Rod Meldrum »

A comparison of Book of Mormon theory land sizes. FYI

The Mesoamerican Models almost fit within an area covering about the size of the southern half of the state of Utah.
The Heartland Model, while still considered a limited geography model, is nearly 10x the land size of that of Mesoamerican theories.

It is interesting the Mesoamerica theory promoters point out the large populations that existed in this very tiny geographical space. Yet the recently fired FARMS Review editors from the Church's BYU Maxwell Institute also claim that the Maya were not the Nephites and the Nephites were not the Maya. So not only were the Maya's millions sandwiched in this little area, so to were the Nephites...and the Lamanites...yet it is interesting to note that neither the Maya nor the Nephites (both of which had written records) happened to have mentioned each other in their records. Now that is truly miraculous, wouldn't you agree?

So the Nephites had their own system of government (kings, judges, etc) and the even more numerous Lamanites were busy wandering about in the wilderness, hunting beasts that migrated from the land northward (Alma 22:31, Enos 1:20 and FYI, there are NO migrating animals in Mesoamerica, only in North America), and then we also have the Maya with their kings etc., and all three of these populous civilizations were crammed into a space smaller than the total land area of the state of Utah for upwards of 1,000 years? Really? Does anyone else see the difficulty with this?

Oh, and the Lamanites were eating "nothing save it was raw meat" (Enos 1:20) which would require a very large supply of monkeys and/or iguanas to feed that huge population of Lamanites (opps, Iguanas are "unclean" reptiles so Hebrews were not likely to be eating them, guess its back to monkeys and few tapirs..dang, they are unclean too!) as they wandered around an area the size of Utah, but they didn't happen to accidentally run into either the huge Nephite populations or the even larger populations of Maya that lived in this area in their wanderings...if we are to believe the Mesoamerican models. Anyone see the problem here? or is it just me... :-?

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A Random Phrase
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by A Random Phrase »

Okay, Rod, you convinced me (not that I was UNconvinced in the first place. The visions of the future that Nephi had and other things in the Book of Mormon fit the United States. We had a revolutionary war and our "mother gentiles" were gathered against us. We had no kings (dictators count). We were a free land. The Book of Mormon was translated here. And so on and so forth.

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Rose Garden
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by Rose Garden »

I can't get around the narrow neck of land problem with the North American model. Rod, can you give me a definite idea of where you think the Nephites and Lamanites were located in North America? Are you going with the narrow neck of land through the great lakes?

That doesn't make much sense to me because of the limitations on land use. First of all, the Jaradites were supposed to have inhabited the land northward, but why would they have settled in Canada when they had the rest of the continent available to them. Before modern technology, that climate was harsh, harsh, harsh. Most children didn't live to adulthood.

It just makes more sense to me that the narrow neck was the panama canal neck, the land northward all of North America and the land southward all of South America. I mean, the natives were covering all that land when the white men came on the scene, weren't they?

I know my ideas don't fit all the clues specifically, but I don't know that anything has conclusively proven them wrong either. Joseph Smith's quotes just don't pin it down specifically. The Book of Mormon prophesies could be talking about a different part of "this land." The whole grapes and iguanas problems don't seem too difficult to get around. I mean, they could have been eating different things and called them the same thing as what they were used to, couldn't they? And I'm sure there are more than just monkeys to eat in South America that would fit the law of Moses (if the Lamanites were even keeping the law).

So anyway, interesting conversation, but no one has yet convinced me beyond doubt that the land of the Nephites was anywhere other than the upper part of South America. It just seems that the important aspects of geography have to get stretched out of proportion to meet any other place.

And I still think it's just for fun. I'm not going to get confused about the prophesies of the United States just because I think the Nephites lived in South America.

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Benjamin Harrison
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by Benjamin Harrison »

Another problem with N. America is the mountain range that is described in the BOM that runs from east to west from one sea to the other. There is only one mountain range that fits that description and is found in Central America. The only other range that runs from east to west in all of the Americas is the Uintah Range, but that doesn't go from one sea to the other. Another discrepency of the N. American theory is the tribe of indians called the Anasazi. That title or racial slur, as the Hopi tribes consider it to be, was given to the Hopi's ancestors by their arch enemies, the tribes of indians found to the south of New Mexico and Utah. The title Anasazi means ancient ones or ancient enemy. The Hopi tribes were considered to be a lighter skinned race and were always under threat of extermination by the southern tribes. Sound familiar? The Hopi ceremonies also mimic jewish rituals and cermonies practiced in ancient Israel. The Cherokee tribes are also similar in their ceremonies and also have lighter skin colors. Another tribe found in the southern U.S who were known to be Anasazi as well, found in the S. Colorado area have a tradition handed down saying they migrated to the North in boats and ended up in S. Colorado and were known as the Water tribes of the Hopi or Anaszai. I think Mormon was familiar with these areas as he traveled back to Zarahemla with his father when he was @ 11 years old, after he had received his commision from Ammaron somewhere up north. After he refused to lead the Nephites, he probably went back up to the north and Moroni was born, which would be why Moroni was familiar with the land northward (as was his father Mormon) and eventually hid the plates in the location of Cumorah in NY(the place Mormon requested to the King of the Lamanites as there final defensive position). Another factoid that I should mention is the appearance of the petroglyphs of a certain figure named Kokopelli, which began to be carved into the rocks of the Southern US @400 AD - 1000 AD. Kokopelli was a figure who played a type of flute or a trumpet and had a humped back. He is always carved next to the symbols of the serpant which is a representation of Christ and sometimes carved with two horns on his head representing an authority or power which he held. I believe he is Moroni who traveled/wandered mostly in N. America to escape the wrath of the Lamanites and to protect his precious cargo carried on his back, hence the humped back shape of the petroglyph. It was said that during one of the jouneys of the early saints, and I can't recall who, I think it was David Whitmer or his wife or both said they saw an older pleasant looking man walking on the side of the road one day carrying something heavy on his back. They stopped and offered him a ride but he pleasantly denied the invitation for a ride saying he was headed for Cumorah. The Whitmers I think it was, went on there way not thinking anything of it at the time, but later told the story to the Prophet Joseph Smith. Joseph told them that they had passed Moroni taking the plates to hide them up again as the translation had just finished. I told this story to only prove that Moroni carried the plates around in some sort of pack as the petroglyphs of Kokopelli depict. I don't think however that Moroni's wanderings were just some sort of aimless meandering. He went about with a purpose. He was in Utah as he had dedicated the ground for the Manti temple to be built at a later date. I think he might have dedicated other temple sites as well, but not only that, are the traditions among the Hopi that Kokopelli was a spiritual teacher and signaled the people by playing his flute, making it known he was in the area and was going to teach them the gospel that night. It was done at night because all these people were in hiding from the tribes to the south. So anyway, I believe that both the theories of the South and the North have truth to them. They landed in the south and eventually went north, covering both lands, and then in the end were driven northward until the final battle of extermination was fought. Hence the discovery of Zelph and buildings throughout N. and S. America.
Kokopelli.jpg
Kokopelli petroglyph NM.jpg
Kokopelli Moroni.jpg
Last edited by Benjamin Harrison on November 11th, 2012, 11:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

HeirofNumenor
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by HeirofNumenor »

Interesting points re: Kokopelli :)

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francisco.colaco
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by francisco.colaco »

I think it was David Whitmer or his wife or both said they saw an older pleasant looking man walking on the side of the road one day carrying something heavy on his back. They stopped and offered him a ride but he pleasantly denied the invitation for a ride saying he was headed for Cumorah.

I read this story, but I think the person was identified as one of the three nephite apostles that remained.

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Benjamin Harrison
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by Benjamin Harrison »

I read it in a book called "Plates of Gold" by Matthew B. Brown, and also the book "Beloved Emma" by Lori Woodland, who both got the account from Edward Stevenson Diary Church Historical Dept Archives: Here is the acount from David Whitmer: "When I was returnig to Fayette, with Joseph and Oliver-all of us riding in the wagon, Oliver an I on an old-fashioned, wooden spring seat and Joseph behind us- and while we were traveling along in a clear open place, a very pleasant, nice-looking old man suddenly appeared by the side of the wagon and saluted us with, 'Good morning, it is very warm' (at the same time wiping his face or forehead with his hand). We returned the salutation and, by a sign from Joseph, invited him to ride if he was going our way. But he said very pleasantly, 'No, I am going to Cumorah.' This name was something new to me; I did not know what Cumorah meant. We all gazed at him and at each other, and as I looked around inquiringly at Joseph the old man instantly disappeared so that I did not see him again.... He was about 5'8"-9" tall and heavy set.... He was dressed in a suit of brown woolen clothes, his hair and beard were white, like brother Orson Pratt's but his beard was not so heavy. I also remember that he had on his back a sort of knapsack with something in it shaped like a book." Joseph, before this happened, had been concerned with the transportation of the plates, but was told not to worry about them because the Angel Moroni would again take charge of them. After this meeting with the old man, both Oliver and David asked Joseph who the old man was, and Joseph did only tell them it was one of the Nephites taking the Plates, which were in the knapsack, taking them to hide them up again. So I can see were you would think it was one of the three Nephites, but it was Moroni who held the Keys of the Book of Mormon and they were his responsability.

HeirofNumenor
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by HeirofNumenor »

I have read the story in many places as Joseph telling them it was Moroni....for what it is worth...

livy111us
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by livy111us »

Rod Meldrum wrote:
Called to Serve wrote:
Oh, and if anyone has Joseph Smith quotes to share, I'd love to read those. I've heard he spoke on the subject.
Here are some quotes from Joseph Smith generally hidden by Mesoamerican promotion organizations because most are first hand accounts of Joseph Smith's writings and actions which support his indisputable understanding of North America as the setting. Beware of second hand and unsigned accounts falsely attributed to Joseph Smith. Follow his actions in order to understand where he KNEW the lands of the Book of Mormon to be.
Good to hear from you again, Rod. I look forward to a conversation with you and hope it will be respectful. We can disagree and still be cordial to each other without contention. Let's leave out name calling, insinuation, condescension, and have a decent discussion.

Actually, groups that you believe to be Mesoamerican (even though FAIR is not) have produced the most comprehensive quotes from Joseph Smith on Book of Mormon geography which contains statements by him which support both a North American setting and Mesoamerican setting for The Book of Mormon. There has been no “hiding” going on at all. You can see these quotes here. You will notice that they is not commentary to try to persuade you one way or the other, only the facts. Do you have such a non-biased list on your website?
http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon ... th_century" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Meldrum claims that Joseph Smith *only* supports his theory. While I completely agree that some of Joseph Smith's statements do, not all do. There are numerous which support a Mesoamerican theory and even a hemispheric theory.
As Joseph Smith would come across information on past civilizations, he would draw parallels. Early in his life, these parallels were mainly based in North America and many were based off of Josiah Priest's work "American Antiquities", and after reading Stephens and Catherwoods book "Incidents of Travel in Central America" he drew many parallels between The Book of Mormon and Mesoamerica. He did not entirely teach one or the other.
I think it is necessary to mention that while, it is interesting to learn what Joseph Smith believed, it in no way makes it official doctrine of the Church. The Church has taken a stand that there has never been a revelation on the subject of BOM geography, and any comments on geography are only speculation. This would include statements from Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Joseph F. Smith, or anyone else. John Taylor and Wilford Woodruff were big proponents of a Mesoamerican setting for The Book of Mormon yet their statements wouldn't add any more weight behind the Mesoamerican theory for the same reasons. It could be argued that they were Prophet’s, intimately knew the Prophet Joseph Smith, and therefore their views on Book of Mormon geography should be taken as doctrine. But, if we are to follow the Church’s counsel, then we know that no matter what any past Prophet or Apostle taught on the subject, there is *no doctrine* as to it’s whereabouts.

Since you are all familiar with Joseph Smith statements placing The Book of Mormon in in the "Heartland", I will provide quotes from Joseph Smith which place it outside of that model. It should first be explained that Joseph Smith was the General Editor of the Times and Seasons and took full responsibility of the contents. In March of 1842, Joseph Smith made the announcement and wrote
“This paper commences my editorial career; I alone stand responsible for it, and shall do for all papers having my signature henceforward. I am not responsible for the publication, or arrangement of the former paper; the matter did not come under my supervision.” (Times and Seasons, Volume 3:710)
And at the end of paper, you will find this signature block:


The Times and Seasons,
IS EDITED BY
Joseph Smith
Printed and published about the first and fifteenth
of every month, on the corner of Wa-
ter and Bain Streets, Nauvoo,
Hancock County,
Illinois, by
JOSEPH SMITH
So the statements from the Times and Seasons during his editorialship were approved and published by him. The statements from the Editor (or Ed.) were written by Joseph Smith himself.
In June of 1841, Joseph Smith published under the article “American Antiquities—More Proofs of the Book of Mormon” and speaks of the “Antiquities of Central America, which have been discovered by two eminent travelers who have spent considerable labor, to bring to light the remains of ancient buildings, architecture &c., which prove beyond controversy that, on this vast continent once flourished a mighty people, skilled in the arts and sciences, and whose splendor would not be eclipsed by any of the nations of Antiquity—a people once high and exalted in the scale of intelligence, but now like their ancient buildings, fallen into ruins.” Then the account is given of Stephens and Catherwoods travels and discoveries in Mesoamerica.
In 1842 he said that the “Mexican records agree so well with the words of the book of Ether (found by the people of Limhi…) Traits of the Mosaic History, Found Among the Aztaeca Nations, Times and Seasons, vol. III no. 16 Pg 820
He also taught that “Stephens and Catherwood's researches in Central America abundantly testify of this thing. The stupendous ruins, the elegant sculpture, and the magnificence of the ruins of Guatamala, and other cities, corroborate this statement, and show that a great and mighty people-men of great minds, clear intellect, bright genius, and comprehensive designs inhabited this continent. Their ruins speak of their greatness; the Book of Mormen [Mormon} unfolds their history.” Joseph Smith (editor)," American Antiquities," Times and Seasons 3/18 (15 July 1842): 860
In November 1841, Joseph Smith wrote a letter to Bishop Bernhisel thanking him for a book that he sent him by Stephens and Catherwoods which is written on their expeditions in Mesoamerica. Joseph Smith saw parallels between Mesoamerica and The Book of Mormon and stated that the Book of Mormon "corresponds with & supports the testimony of the Book of Mormon; I have read the volumes with the greatest interest & pleasure & must say that of all histories that have been written pertaining to the antiquities of this country it is the most correct luminous & comprihensive.-…”Joseph Smith, The Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, compiled and edited by Dean C. Jessee (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1984), 501 - 502.
And the list goes on and on…

Other leaders echoed Joseph Smiths teachings of a Mesoamerican setting for The Book of Mormon as well.
Wilford Woodruff said in 1841 “I felt truly interested in this work for it brought to light a flood of testimony in proof of the book of mormon in the discovery & survey of the city Copan in Central America…” Wilford Woodruff, Wilford Woodruff’s Journal, 9 vols., ed., Scott G. Kenny (Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1985), 2:126; journal entry dated 13 Sept 1841
Parley P. Pratt said in 1842 “it is remarkable that Mr. Smith, in translating the Book of Mormon from 1827 to 1830, should mention the names and circumstances of those towns and fortifications in this very section of country, where a Mr Stephens, ten years afterwards, penetrated a dense forest, till then unexplored by modern travellers, and actually fines the ruins of those very cities mentioned by Mormon.” "Ruins in Central America," Millennial Star 2/11 (March 1842): 165.
W.W. Phelps wrote from the article “Discovery of Ancient Ruins in Central America” “We are glad to see the proof begin to come, of the original or ancient inhabitants of this continent. It is good testimony in favor of the book of Mormon, and the book of Mormon is good testimony that such things as cities and civilization, ‘prior to the fourteenth century,’ existed in America” Evening and Morning Star 1/9 (February 1833), pg 71.

Apostle John Page said in 1842 "Let it be distinctly understood that the Prophet Alma uttered this prophecy, not far from Guatemala or Central America, some 82 years before the birth of Christ." John E. Page, "Mormonism Concluded: To 'A Disciple,'" Morning Chronicle, Pittsburgh, 20 July 1842

livy111us
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by livy111us »

Rod Meldrum wrote:
Called to Serve wrote:
Oh, and if anyone has Joseph Smith quotes to share, I'd love to read those. I've heard he spoke on the subject.
Where did he send the first missionaries when the Lord commanded him to take the gospel to the "Lamanites"? See D&C 28, 30 and 32 and then read Parley P. Pratt's autobiography...they were sent to Native Americans in North America. Joseph never sent a single missionary "unto the Lamanites" in Meso or South America. Undeniable historical fact.
I have no problem with this statement. We know that the Lamanites began as a familial group, but one could “become” a Lamanite. You cannot gain ancestors, but the term Lamanite began to mean everyone other than a Nephite (Lamanites, Lemuelites, Ishmaelites, Zoramites, were all considered Lamanites). After the coming of the Savior in the New World, they were all one people until there began again to be an apostasy and people took upon themselves the name of Lamanites. “There were no robbers, nor murderers, neither were there Lamanites, nor any manner of -ites; but they were in one the children of Christ, and heirs to the kingdom of God.” (4 Nephi 1:17) Again, a Lamanite meant more of an acceptance of, or denial of certain ideals than to be part of a specific familial line. All one had to do to be a Lamanite was to be the “other” guys. If that is the case, then every single Indian in the Western Hemisphere would be considered a Lamanite. Spencer W. Kimball related something similar when he said:

“The term Lamanite includes all Indians and Indian mixtures, such as the Polynesians, the Guatemalans, the Peruvians, as well as the Sioux, the Apache, the Mohawk, the Navajo, and others. It is a large group of great people.” – Spencer W. Kimball /Ensign July 1971

Notice he gives the name of Lamanite to the Guatemalans of Mesoamerica and the Peruvians of South America?

Steve Olsen, an expert in population genetics, says if you “go back 120 generations, to about the year 1000 B.C. According to the results presented in our Nature paper, your ancestors then included everyone in the world who has descendants living today.” ((See Douglas L. T. Rohde, Steve Olson, and Joseph T. Chang, "Modelling the recent common ancestry of all living humans," 431 Nature (30 September 2004): 562–566)) If we go back another 1600 years, and then only focus on the Americas, we can see that all the people in the Americas are literally descended from Laman, and could be considered Lamanites

Other past leaders have also placed Lamanites in Mesoamerica:
"[T]he Republic of Mexico is made up in the great majority of its citizens of people whom the world calls Indians, but to whom the Latter-day Saints refer as Lamanites,. . ." President Anthony W. Ivins, Conference Report, October 1926.
"There will be a great work accomplished in Mexico. I feel that the Lamanites in that land will receive the Gospel by thousands." Moses Thatcher, Conference Report, April 1880

Tenth LDS President Joseph Fielding Smith let it be known that the Lamanite influence was not restricted to North America. "The history of this American continent also gives evidence that the Lamanites have risen up in their anger and vexed the Gentiles. This warfare may not be over. It has been the fault of people in the United States to think that this prophetic saying has reference to the Indians in the United States, but we must remember that there are millions of the 'remnant' in Mexico, Central and South America" (Church History and Modern Revelation 2:127, emphasis mine).
Speaking in conference in October 1921, Elder Andrew Jenson, a member of the staff of the LDS Church's Historian's Office, stated, "We, therefore cast a glance southward into old Mexico and through the great countries beyond -- down through Central America and South America, where there are millions and millions of Lamanites, direct descendants of Father Lehi." (Conference Report, October 1921, p.120, emphasis mine).

We also have inspired Temple dedicatory prayers from Prophets who have also stated that those in Mesoamerica (as well as many other places, but for the sake of argument, I’m only providing the quotes from Mesoamerica) have the blood of Lehi in them.
President Hinckley in his prayer at the dedication of the Mexico City temple in December 1983, he stated, "Bless Thy Saints in this great land and those from other lands who will use this Temple. Most have in their veins the blood of Father Lehi" http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/cgi-bin ... onological" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In December of the following year, he gave a dedicatory prayer at the Guatemala City, Guatemala temple where he stated, "Thou Kind and Gracious Father, our hearts swell with gratitude for Thy remembrance of the sons and daughters of Lehi... We thank Thee O God, for lifting the scales of darkness which for generations clouded the vision of the descendants of Lehi




http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/cgi-bin ... onological" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)
At the Guatemala City temple dedication, he prayed: "We thank thee for the recorded record of our ancestors, the record of Lehi, Nephi and Jacob, of Alma and Mosiah, of Benjamin and Mormon and Moroni."
In his March 6, 1999 dedicatory prayer given at the Colonia Juaréz Chihuahua Temple, Hinckley he said, "Bless Thy Saints that they may continue to live here without molestation. May they live in peace and security. May they be prospered as they cultivate their farms and pursue their vocations. May the sons and daughters of father Lehi grow in strength and in fulfillment of the ancient promises made concerning them." (http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/cgi-bin ... phabetical" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;).
In August 1999, Hinckley made a similar statement as he was in Guayaquil, Ecuador to dedicate another new LDS temple. "It has been a very interesting thing to see the descendants of father Lehi in the congregation that have gathered in the temple...So very many of these people have the blood of Lehi in their veins, and it is just an intriguing thing to see their tremendous response and their tremendous interest" (Salt Lake Tribune 11/30/2000).
When James Faust, Gordon Hinckley's second counselor, gave the dedicatory prayer for the Tuxtla Gutierrez, Mexico temple on March 12, 2000, he stated, "We invoke Thy blessings upon this nation of Mexico where so many of the sons and daughters of Father Lehi dwell." (http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/cgi-bin ... onological" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

Thomas Monson, Gordon Hinckley's first counselor, made the same connection when he prayed at the dedication of the Villahermosa, Mexico temple on May 21, 2000: "May Thy eternal purposes concerning the sons and daughters of Lehi be realized in this sacred house. May every blessing of the eternal gospel be poured out upon them, and may the suffering of the centuries be softened through the beneficence of Thy loving care." (


http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/cgi-bin ... onological" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

Point being, there are Lamanites in North America, but there are also Lamanites in Mesoamerica, and South America. This isn’t a strong point for BOM geography.

livy111us
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by livy111us »

Rod Meldrum wrote:
Called to Serve wrote:
Oh, and if anyone has Joseph Smith quotes to share, I'd love to read those. I've heard he spoke on the subject.


Also, before putting to much stock in the FARMS Review attacks against the Heartland Model, you might want to know that all those involved with the editorial board of the publication were summarily fired from the Church's BYU Maxwell Institute for undisclosed reasons. However, what IS known is that they spent months in assembling hundreds of pages of attack articles against a member of the Church in excellent standing while using Church funds to promote their own theories, which runs contrary to the Church's official position of neutrality on Book of Mormon geography. The issue bearing the attacks was some 8 months behind schedule for undisclosed reasons.

Are you implying that those who lost their job had anything to do with you? Having some insight to the issue, you were never even brought up, but happened because of different ideals of the new leaders. If they were fired because of you, then how would you explain that it happened nearly 2 years after they began publishing articles which reviewed your work? How do you explain those who lost their jobs who had nothing to do with those articles, or Book of Mormon geography at all? How do you explain that Matt Roper, who printed more articles than anyone else on your work, still has a job there?
To imply such things is not only a stretch to say the least, but inaccurate and a poor attempt to dismiss their material. Having read all of their reviews and your rebuttals to them, they still come out on top 9 times out of 10.

JohnnyL
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Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by JohnnyL »

livy111us wrote:
erichard wrote:
Called to Serve wrote:...There are two theories I believe are possible, the United States location, because of its current status as the home of a blessed nation (if only they would stay good so they can keep that status!) and the South America location. ...I haven't studied the topic more than casually. But I am curious about it. I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts on the subject.
Hi,

I am very certain that the true descendants of Laman and Lemuel are found today mainly in South America. Most of those with Native American blood in Central and North America are a mixture that sometimes includes Lamanite blood.

I am not so sure where the Book of Mormon account took place. But I tend to believe it took place in South America. I found Venice Priddis' book, "The Book and the Map" very convicing in some ways. I realize it takes faith to believe the Amazon basin was underwater before the time of Christ, but it takes faith to believe the Book of Mormon itself.

George Potter (nephiproject.com) does not accept the Priddis model, but still proposes a South American model. Here is a list of the reasons he gives in a dvd he gives away on the matter:
Peru and the surrounding countries.

1. Gold Plates --Thin metal gold plates have been found. It has been shown that people in the area were working gold as early as 1900 BC. In contrast, the earliest evidence of metal working in Mesoamerica is about 900 AD.

2. BoM people mined gold and silver in abundance, as well as copper and iron. The gold found by the Spanish in this land is legendary, and yet there is evidence that the Incan priests hid much gold from the Spanish. Large collections of highly skilled gold artifacts remain. Also evidence of iron is found. In contrast there is no evidence of any iron workings in Mesoamerica.

3. The Nephites worshipped Jesus Christ. The Quetzalcoatl legends start around 900 AD, long after the time of Christ. In contrast, the premier god of the Andes is Viracocha. He dressed in a white robe and wore sandals. He is always in the form of a normal man, and never with the beast like features associated with Quetzalcoatl.

4. Jesus Christ visited the Americas. The Peruvians have legends of a bearded white god who came among them and taught them and healed the sick. The Icons of Viracocha usually show him with tears.

5. A language with middle eastern roots. Mesoamerica has many Chinese roots:
http://www.chinese.tcu.edu/www_chinese3_tcu_edu.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; However, the native Quechua in Peru has semetic roots by many studies.

6. A vanished written language. The Incans told the Spanish that they had had a written language, but it was lost long before. In contrast, hundreds of written documents have been found in Mesoamerica. Jacob 4:1-2 predicts only things written on plates will survive.

7 Great cities built form 3rd millennium BC. In the andies city ruins from 2700 BC exist. In contrast, cities in Mesoamerica exist from only 1200 BC. The cities of Caral date from 2700 BC and the ruins resemble the ziggurats from Mesopotamia from which the Jaredites came. The Book of Mormon main civilization ended around 400 AD. The Mesoamerican classic period was from 300 AD to 900 AD.

Archeological periods (civilizations) for proposed Book of Mormon lands:

Caral -- Norte Chico 2700-300 BC (Jaredites)
Central Andes -- Early Intermediate 600 BC to AD 200 (Land of Nephi)

Early Tiwanaku IV -- Late Chiripa II Middle formative 600 BC - AD 400 (Lamanite lands)

Northern Titicaca basin Late/Upper Formative 500 BC - AD 400 (Zarahemla)

8. Land of BoM was divided into quarters: Alma 43:26 52:10. The Incas called their land the land of the four quarters, and divided the land into four quarters.

9. The land was covered with borders, meaning Mountains. The word borders means mountains in Hebrew and Arabic. The book of Mormon talks of mountains. This is indicative of the Andes which has many mountains.

10. The Incans were great Highway builders. The BoM speaks of many highways. 3 Nephi 8:13 The Incas and preIncans used cement, as also mentioned in the BoM.

11. The Nephites were Hebrews The only place the Hebrew DNA has been found in the Americas so far is in South America.

12. BoM people divided into two groups: fair skinned and dark skinned. Artifacts and legends in Peru tell of two earlier people: one fair skinned and one dark skinned. The legends say the dark skinned killed of the fair skinned people. Artifacts show light skinned people well dressed fighting

13. The Nephites were skilled ship builders. The reed boats in Titicaca match the reed boats in Mesopotamia. The Incans had large ships when the Spanish came.

14 The people of the BoM had horses. But it never mentions anyone riding horses. Possibly Nephi saw Llamas and called them horses.

15 The BoM had many types of grain. There are many types of grains grown in the Andes.

16 The BoM people were shepherds. The BoM mentions sheep and shepherding many times. This fact alone removes North and Mesoamerica as a candidate for the BoM history. The only domesticated animals the mayans had were turkeys and dogs. In the andes Alpacas are hered like sheep and the Spanish described them as sheep. The Nephites could have also called them sheep. Vicunas could be what are called wild goats in the BoM.

17 Elephants, pigs and cattle are mentioned in the BoM. These terms must have applied to Andes versions of these animals.

18 The Nephites had solar and lunar calendars. The ancient Peruvians also had solar and lunar calendars.

19 The Incans had large graineries. The BoM speaks of vast storages of grain.

20 Costly apparel. Silk spoken of in the Book of Mormon. The Peruvians were the master weavers of the ancient Americas. Silk could be any finely woven cloth.
I am a fan of George Potter, but his stuff on BOM geography can use some work. The list he uses to support a South American setting, all the while discounting a Mesoamerican setting is grossly inaccurate. Many of the parallels he draws are so vague that they can be drawn with cultures on the other side of the world. "The Nephites drank water and the people of the Andes drank water, therefore, they are one and the same."
He also doesn't understand Mesoamerican archaeology because he gets numerous points wrong. He studied it just enough to get the information he wanted then stopped. He has a very limited understanding of the cultures there and doesn't do a very good job at presenting an honest case.
One thing that really bothered me about this list is the double standard. He would let one principle slide if it was in his geography, but condemned the Mesoamerican setting for the exact same principle. For example, he has stated in the past that The BOM could not have taken place in Mesoamerica because silk, goats, metal-working, etc... did not exist there. But he fails to mention that those exact same things are NOT found in South America as well. Not the most honest thing, is it?
Here is a response to one of Potters lists that he has made that discusses a few of the problems with them. It is quite good and raises an eyebrow.

Response to George Potter's "Ten Reasons why Mesoamerica is Not Book of Mormon Lands"

http://www.bmaf.org/node/487" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I've seen about EVERY side do this.

JohnnyL
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 9830

Re: Location of the Book of Mormon Lands

Post by JohnnyL »

Called to Serve wrote:I can't get around the narrow neck of land problem with the North American model. Rod, can you give me a definite idea of where you think the Nephites and Lamanites were located in North America? Are you going with the narrow neck of land through the great lakes?

That doesn't make much sense to me because of the limitations on land use. First of all, the Jaradites were supposed to have inhabited the land northward, but why would they have settled in Canada when they had the rest of the continent available to them. Before modern technology, that climate was harsh, harsh, harsh. Most children didn't live to adulthood.

It just makes more sense to me that the narrow neck was the panama canal neck, the land northward all of North America and the land southward all of South America. I mean, the natives were covering all that land when the white men came on the scene, weren't they?

I know my ideas don't fit all the clues specifically, but I don't know that anything has conclusively proven them wrong either. Joseph Smith's quotes just don't pin it down specifically. The Book of Mormon prophesies could be talking about a different part of "this land." The whole grapes and iguanas problems don't seem too difficult to get around. I mean, they could have been eating different things and called them the same thing as what they were used to, couldn't they? And I'm sure there are more than just monkeys to eat in South America that would fit the law of Moses (if the Lamanites were even keeping the law).

So anyway, interesting conversation, but no one has yet convinced me beyond doubt that the land of the Nephites was anywhere other than the upper part of South America. It just seems that the important aspects of geography have to get stretched out of proportion to meet any other place.

And I still think it's just for fun. I'm not going to get confused about the prophesies of the United States just because I think the Nephites lived in South America.
I think you have lots of cultural limitations and biases here (especially that Canadian part!). If it's the narrow neck of land, weren't you the one talking about changes after the destruction? Many places now under water weren't, and many that aren't were. Look at Mexico City, for instance.

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