The Fastest Way to Make Your Calling and Election Sure

[Original_Intentcaptain of 1,000]

We can't be saved by our works.

Mosiah3: 15 And many signs, and wonders, and types, and shadows showed he unto them, concerning his coming; and also holy prophets spake unto them concerning his coming; and yet they hardened their hearts, and understood not that the law of Moses availeth nothing dexcept it were through the atonement of his blood.

2 Nephi 2: 6 Wherefore, redemption cometh in and through the Holy Messiah; for he is full of grace and truth.

7 Behold, he offereth himself a sacrifice for sin, to answer the ends of the law, unto all those who have a broken heart and a contrite spirit; and unto none else can the ends of the law be answered.

8 Wherefore, how great the importance to make these things known unto the inhabitants of the earth, that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah, who layeth down his life according to the flesh, and taketh it again by the power of the Spirit, that he may bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, being the first that should rise.

9 Wherefore, he is the firstfruits unto God, inasmuch as he shall make intercession for all the children of men; and they that believe in him shall be saved.

However, faith is required, and faith, if it is faith, WILL be accompanied by works.

Faith without works is dead.

[Thomascaptain of 1,000]

I think works are a reflection of faith. We can say we have faith but that is only words. If we truly have faith we strive to obey the commandments. It is like those who want to attack Iran. If they really had faith , they would believe God's promise given in D&C 98 and not push for an attack. Their words say faith but their actions say, no I don't believe God will save me, so I must rely on the arm of the flesh.

Obeying the commandments, alone can't save us, even if we think we have faith. The people of Lehi's dayThought that they were saved because they obeyed the law of Moses, however they were destroyed.

[laroniuscaptain of 100]

When talking about exaltation, we need to remember what exactly exaltation is. Essentially it means "like God." Therefore it is not merely a reward for good behavior but rather a condition we attain to with His help. So in this life we are in the process of becoming like Him. This requires thinking like him, feeling like him and doing what he does and would do in our circumstances. That is why works in addition to faith is so important because it is in living the gospel that we become like God. I think C&E is essentially one step in this process. It's not a reward but rather God saying in essence: "You have progressed sufficiently to enjoy my presence." And isn't that what life is about? So the fastest way to make one's calling and election sure, and I might add the ONLY way, is to live the gospel. That is what it was intended to do after all.

[BigDcaptain of 100]

We can't be saved by our works.

Correct. We are saved by grace alone. No one doubts this!

BUT, WE WILL BE JUDGED AND CONDEMNED BY OUR DESIRES AND OUR DEEDS!

What does it mean to be in a "state of Probation"? Why would this probationary state matter unless it affects our final salvation?

And the days of the children of men were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh;

wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and their time was lengthened, according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men.

For he gave commandment that all men must repent;

for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents.

Why is the problem with wasting our days of probation?

But wo unto him that has the law given, yea, that has all the commandments of God, like unto us, and that transgresseth them, and that wasteth the days of his probation, for awful is his state!

Why do you think that this thread warns us all to "repent" and seek the Savior in this life while still in the flesh?

Why does the "temporal body" matter and why do the "days of probation" matter?

And it came to pass that I said unto them that it was a representation of things both temporal and spiritual;

for the day should come that they must be judged of their works, yea, even the works which were done by the temporal body in their days of probation.

So what should we do with this "probationary time" that we have been given?

And thus we see, that there was a time granted unto man to repent, yea, a probationary time, a time to repent and serve God.

Why all this emphasis on "repentance" and "serving" God?

Can mercy really supplant justice in the "plan of redemption"?

Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state;

for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice.

Now the work of justice could not be destroyed;

if so, God would cease to be God.

Do you really expect mercy to overcome the "work of justice"?


FOR THE RECORD:

• Our thoughts do matter.
• The way we treat others does matter.
• Our desires (regardless of our weaknesses) and our efforts also matter.
• Our willingness to sacrifice everything to seek our Savior in the flesh matters.
• And yet, we are only saved by grace.

And thus, why this thread matters a great deal.

Be wise in the days of your probation;

strip yourselves of all uncleanness;

ask not, that ye may consume it on your lusts, but ask with a firmness unshaken, that ye will yield to no temptation, but that ye will serve the true and living God.

Unfortunately, too many false prophets would have us waste the time of our probation.

And there shall also be many which shall say:

Eat, drink, and be merry;

nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin;

yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor;

there is no harm in this;

and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.

Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish doctrines, and shall be puffed up in their hearts, and shall seek deep to hide their counsels from the Lord;

and their works shall be in the dark.

Are we all really so willing to waste the days of your probation by heeding "false and vain and foolish doctrines" that suggest that our works do NOT matter and that "mercy" will overcome "justice"?

[freedomfightercaptain of 1,000]

Taken from "Believing Christ", Stephen E Robinson

We are neither saved by faith alone nor are we saved by works alone. Salvation comes through a covenant relationship in which both faith and works play their parts. To insist that salvation comes by works alone, that we can earn it ourselves without needing the grace of God, insults the mercy of God and mocks the sacrifice of Jesus Christ in our behalf. On the other hand, to insist that salvation comes by belief alone and that God places no other obligations upon the believer insults the justice of God and makes Christ the minister of sin.

In the gospel race, there are no losers, only quitters. Those who run across the finish line in minutes, those who walk across it in hours, or those who crawl across it in days all win the prize. For they all endured to the end, according to their talents and abilities. looking to the Savior. Paul said, "let us run with patience the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith."

Too many of us expend our precious energy worrying about our relative times instead of keeping our eyes on the goal, putting one foot in front of the other, and enduring to the end.

This should clarify what I have said in my previous posts, of which some here have been antagonistic towards. But who really cares, it's par for the course.

Read "Believing Christ" it is great reading.

[Thomascaptain of 1,000]

I'm sure we are on the same page BigD. I think we just need to be careful about thinking one more, or two more good deeds will save us. As your posts stated, we must be willing to sacrifice all. That is true faith, and only through faith in Christ can we be saved. We can spend all our lives doing good deeds but still miss the mark.

Alma 5:53 And now my beloved brethren, I say unto you, can ye withstand these sayings; yea, can ye lay aside these things, and trample the Holy One under your feet; yea, can ye be puffed up in the pride of your hearts; yea, will ye still persist in the wearing of costly apparel and setting your hearts upon the vain things of the world, upon your riches?

So we can do good deeds all the day long, but if we have our hearts set upon the things of this world, we will miss the mark. Of course, good deeds are required as well.

[BigDcaptain of 100]

I think works are a reflection of faith. We can say we have faith but that is only words. If we truly have faith we strive to obey the commandments. It is like those who want to attack Iran. If they really had faith , they would believe God's promise given in D&C 98 and not push for an attack. Their words say faith but their actions say, no I don't believe God will save me, so I must rely on the arm of the flesh.

Obeying the commandments, alone can't save us, even if we think we have faith. The people of Lehi's day thought that they were saved because they obeyed the law of Moses, however they were destroyed.

Yes, I agree. We have way too little faith as a people; we likewise rely far too much on the "precepts of men".

Unfortunately, so many of us trust that we are saved by the Church's ordinances and our Church activity. The scriptures never state anything of the kind. The ordinances mean nothing if we lack the Faith and the accompanying works of Righteousness. Our devout Church activity likewise fails to "justify" our redemption when we lack Christlike love and Charity for our fellow man.

For, said he, I have repented of my sins, and have been redeemed of the Lord; behold I am born of the Spirit.

FWIW, the ordinances are great, but they only point us in the right direction; the rest of the way we must individually seek through prayer, fasting, and feasting on the scriptures. Likewise, we foolishly substitute devout Church attendance for following the two great commandments.

The Jews in the time of Lehi had the temple, the ordinances, and also devoutly followed the statutes and the law. And yet, God destroyed them.

And we know that the people who were in the land of Jerusalem were a righteous people;

for they kept the statutes and judgments of the Lord, and all his commandments, according to the law of Moses;

wherefore, we know that they are a righteous people;

and our father hath judged them, and hath led us away because we would hearken unto his words;

yea, and our brother is like unto him.

And after this manner of language did my brethren murmur and complain against us.

So many modern LDS devoutly follow the "statutes" and the "commandments" and likewise believe "that they are a righteous people". And yet, like the Jews in Lehi's time, we are beautiful on the outside but filthy on the inside. We often forget that our thoughts and desires are truly as important as are our outward deeds and acts.

But this much I can tell you, that if ye do not watch yourselves, and your thoughts, and your words, and your deeds, and observe the commandments of God, and continue in the faith of what ye have heard concerning the coming of our Lord, even unto the end of your lives, ye must perish.

And now, O man, remember, and perish not.

Only our Savior determines who will be saved based on what is in our heart; yea, even the desires of our heart. Seeking our Savior in the flesh is what we all should be pursuing, because the nearer we come to Him, the closer we come to Salvation through His atonement.

And again, verily I say unto you that it is your privilege, and a promise I give unto you that have been ordained unto this ministry, that inasmuch as you strip yourselves from jealousies and fears, and humble yourselves before me, for ye are not sufficiently humble, the veil shall be rent and you shall see me and know that I am—not with the carnal neither natural mind, but with the spiritual.

We all have a promise to rend the veil in this life, but how many of us take that promise seriously?

Verily, thus saith the Lord:

It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am;

Even the New Testament contains such a promise.

I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
...
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

John 14:23—The appearing of the Father and the Son, in that verse, is a personal appearance;

and the idea that the Father and the Son dwell in a man’s heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false.

Are we ready to give up our "old sectarian notion" and believe that we can seek the face of the Lord in this life?

What say ye?

[freedomfightercaptain of 1,000]

I agree, BigD, and the Lord had something to say about this very thing. This is not to say that all are in this mode, but some are.

2 Nephi 27:25
25 Forasmuch as this people draw near unto me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, but have removed their hearts far from me, and their fear towards me is taught by the precepts of men—

This is why we must keep our heart going in the right direction. Men could do many mighty works, yet forget their God, and become self righteous, thinking that since they do all these works they have it made. The requirement is to love God with all our heart, mind and strength, internally, and to become as a little child.

[Thomascaptain of 1,000]

Agreed, BigD and Freedomfighter.

I am trying to have faith enough to see Christ in the flesh. If our calling and election has not been made sure, than it is unsure. I have been given the promise of the first resurrection in my PB and also that promise is given, in the sealing ceremony;however I believe those promises are conditional.

I would like to hear the voice of the lord say it has been made sure.

[freedomfightercaptain of 1,000]

Agreed, BigD and Freedomfighter.

I am trying to have faith enough to see Christ in the flesh. If our calling and election has not been made sure, than it is unsure. I have been given the promise of the first resurrection in my PB and also that promise is given, in the sealing ceremony;however I believe those promises are conditional.

I would like to hear the voice of the lord say it has been made sure.

I've often wondered about my standing before the Lord. I think to myself, if I had the knowledge that my C&E were sure, could I be certain I would live so that I would not jeopardize this blessing? One would have to be on their toes at all times and in all circumstances.

This kind of knowledge carries a heavier weight of self control and self discipline. Every night one could ask themselves if they were good enough that day, and did everything pleasing to God. Do you know what I'm sayin' here? Remember, where much is given, much is required?

Am I the only one that wonders about these things?

Indeed, the promises are conditional, and that's exactly what I'm saying. And once a person is told their C&E is sure, the conditions increase even higher. And if one falls, the fall is even farther.

Yay, Nay?

[reesecaptain of 1,000]

And once a person is told their C&E is sure, the conditions increase even higher. And if one falls, the fall is even farther.

Yay, Nay?

Yay. But you need to remember the only way to fall so far that there is no hope, is to deny God is God when you are standing there looking at him. To say that the sun doesn't shine. You won't make a "mistake" when you fall, you will make a choice.

Someone whose C&E has been made sure will still need to repent....daily. They will not be changed in amazing ways. They will still struggle to understand things. They will still struggle with the Lord to get answers. C&E does not make any significant changes to a person. All it does is tell them that they won't fail, that they will make it. It does not mean they CAN'T fall, it means they WON'T fall, but they will still have to struggle through the tests and trials. It also provides a catalyst for the kind of faith that is needed to part the veil and partake of all that God is offering us.

[sbsioncaptain of 1,000]

repent...........oh, btw, it also has to do with your pre-existant ordination

[Gadcaptain of 1,000]

Calling and election is a great blessing. It does not increase your burden, but rather frees you from much concern. You cannot truly have charity until your concerns over your own salvation are resolved. Christ's love is pure and whole for others because he himself has overcome all and no longer worries about His own salvation. He can focus 100% on saving others. As long as we have not secured your exaltation you will have a lesser portion of Charity because you have at least some percentage of concern for your own salvation.

[Jeremycaptain of 100]

...As long as we have not secured your exaltation you will have a lesser portion of Charity because you have at least some percentage of concern for your own salvation.

Very interesting. I hadn't thought of it like that. I don't necessarily agree...or disagree for that matter. It makes me think about: you can't truly love someone until you love yourself.

Of course that needs to be put in context.
Please see Gospel Principles Chapter 30:

Third, we can learn to love ourselves, which means that we understand our true worth as children of our Heavenly Father. The Savior taught that we must love others as we love ourselves (see Matthew 22:39). To love ourselves, we must respect and trust ourselves. This means that we must be obedient to the principles of the gospel. We must repent of any wrongdoings. We must forgive ourselves when we have repented. We will come to love ourselves better when we can feel the deep, comforting assurance that the Savior truly loves us.

[firendcaptain of 1,000]

Calling and election is a great blessing. It does not increase your burden, but rather frees you from much concern. You cannot truly have charity until your concerns over your own salvation are resolved. Christ's love is pure and whole for others because he himself has overcome all and no longer worries about His own salvation. He can focus 100% on saving others. As long as we have not secured your exaltation you will have a lesser portion of Charity because you have at least some percentage of concern for your own salvation.

dude that is so true, sounds like a book I read recently.

[ericcaptain of 100]

And once a person is told their C&E is sure, the conditions increase even higher. And if one falls, the fall is even farther.

Yay, Nay?

Yay. But you need to remember the only way to fall so far that there is no hope, is to deny God is God when you are standing there looking at him. To say that the sun doesn't shine. You won't make a "mistake" when you fall, you will make a choice.

Someone whose C&E has been made sure will still need to repent....daily. They will not be changed in amazing ways. They will still struggle to understand things. They will still struggle with the Lord to get answers. C&E does not make any significant changes to a person. All it does is tell them that they won't fail, that they will make it. It does not mean they CAN'T fall, it means they WON'T fall, but they will still have to struggle through the tests and trials. It also provides a catalyst for the kind of faith that is needed to part the veil and partake of all that God is offering us.

Hmmm..... very interesting points. How do you know this (not questioning what you have to say - just the surety with which you say it). I say some things with surety and I have been wrong before. Do you base this on personal experience (without prying)? I would like to move forward with the same surety - as I have questions about the very points you have raised. If I know someone has successfully covered ground before and obtained a knowledge, it usually bolsters my faith/desire and then I will move forward knowing that it can be done. Some things I learn for myself as I stumble through life - and then I champion the charge forward in that area. This area of C&E is one where I see few if any people who have successfully penetrated the unknown (or few talk of it, anyway). I know of scriptural examples - but few details of the process or what the experience is like. It seems a little fearful - but that may just simply be my feelings of inadequacy talking here.... I suspect Denver Snuffer, Serenitylala and I am pretty positive Iohani Wolfgramm punched through - just based on their writings. The Book of Mormon is clear that we must move forward to this end after Baptism and reception of the Holy Ghost. Just baffles me that there is not a peep on the subject in mainstream LDS culture....

Enough rambling - very interesting topic! I have been kind of kicking this thing around for several years (since I bought Denver's book), but I think I have been waiting for some descriptions of the event so that I could put it in context. One more rambling point; why are my two favorite authors named after largish cities (Denver Snuffer & Ogden Kraut). I was suspecting that their names were phony (pen names) when I first read them, but then did research on them and found they had some good history. When things get a little out of whack (from a gospel standpoint) and someone starts speaking plainly and directly once again, I get suspicious that ministrants (angelic or otherwise) are afoot in the land. I find no proof up until this point that either of these city slickers fit that bill.... They are regular (good) people, methinks. Thanks for listening to my randomness.

[Markcaptain of 1,000]

And once a person is told their C&E is sure, the conditions increase even higher. And if one falls, the fall is even farther.

Yay, Nay?

Yay. But you need to remember the only way to fall so far that there is no hope, is to deny God is God when you are standing there looking at him. To say that the sun doesn't shine. You won't make a "mistake" when you fall, you will make a choice.

Someone whose C&E has been made sure will still need to repent....daily. They will not be changed in amazing ways. They will still struggle to understand things. They will still struggle with the Lord to get answers. C&E does not make any significant changes to a person. All it does is tell them that they won't fail, that they will make it. It does not mean they CAN'T fall, it means they WON'T fall, but they will still have to struggle through the tests and trials. It also provides a catalyst for the kind of faith that is needed to part the veil and partake of all that God is offering us.

Hmmm..... very interesting points. How do you know this (not questioning what you have to say - just the surety with which you say it). I say some things with surety and I have been wrong before. Do you base this on personal experience (without prying)? I would like to move forward with the same surety - as I have questions about the very points you have raised. If I know someone has successfully covered ground before and obtained a knowledge, it usually bolsters my faith/desire and then I will move forward knowing that it can be done. Some things I learn for myself as I stumble through life - and then I champion the charge forward in that area. This area of C&E is one where I see few if any people who have successfully penetrated the unknown (or few talk of it, anyway). I know of scriptural examples - but few details of the process or what the experience is like. It seems a little fearful - but that may just simply be my feelings of inadequacy talking here.... I suspect Denver Snuffer, Serenitylala and I am pretty positive Iohani Wolfgramm punched through - just based on their writings. The Book of Mormon is clear that we must move forward to this end after Baptism and reception of the Holy Ghost. Just baffles me that there is not a peep on the subject in mainstream LDS culture....

Enough rambling - very interesting topic! I have been kind of kicking this thing around for several years (since I bought Denver's book), but I think I have been waiting for some descriptions of the event so that I could put it in context. One more rambling point; why are my two favorite authors named after largish cities (Denver Snuffer & Ogden Kraut). I was suspecting that their names were phony (pen names) when I first read them, but then did research on them and found they had some good history. When things get a little out of whack (from a gospel standpoint) and someone starts speaking plainly and directly once again, I get suspicious that ministrants (angelic or otherwise) are afoot in the land. I find no proof up until this point that either of these city slickers fit that bill.... They are regular (good) people, methinks. Thanks for listening to my randomness.

Eric may I suggest checking out John Pontius unblog my soul and his books. John is a very humble man who has had incredible experiences with the spirit in his life. I went to one of his presentations last night and he discussed these sacred truths in a very appropriate and reverent way.

I very carefully listen to those who proclaim to have experienced for themselves a fullness of the gospel in their own lives to see if they are doing so in a spirit of love and peace and reverence for the Lord and for the church that He restored through the Prophet Joseph.

John fits that description very well and you will never hear him disparage the church or its designated mission in these latter days. He speaks only out of respect and love for those modern day Prophets called and set apart to hold the essential Priesthood keys and exercise them in righteousness.

He encourages all to seek for this greater light and knowledge that the gospel affords all those who desire to serve the Lord in righteousness and exercise faith and belief in His promises made to all his children of the covenant. John is a wonderful example of someone who pursues these promises properly and without the spirit of pride or guile.

[DrJonescaptain of 1,000]

Mark wrote:

Eric may I suggest checking out John Pontius unblog my soul and his books. John is a very humble man who has had incredible experiences with the spirit in his life. I went to one of his presentations last night and he discussed these sacred truths in a very appropriate and reverent way.

Is the same Mark from San Diego? I was there last night , Bro -- wish I could have met you. I did meet a few others from this forum there.

[awakecaptain of 100]

Someone whose C&E has been made sure will still need to repent....daily. They will not be changed in amazing ways. They will still struggle to understand things. They will still struggle with the Lord to get answers. C&E does not make any significant changes to a person. All it does is tell them that they won't fail, that they will make it. It does not mean they CAN'T fall, it means they WON'T fall, but they will still have to struggle through the tests and trials. It also provides a catalyst for the kind of faith that is needed to part the veil and partake of all that God is offering us.

Not being deceived by the philosophies of men, falsehoods, false doctrine and false prophets is the test of this life.

No matter how wonderful of a person we are or how perfect our marriage is, or how many good children we raised, only those who weren't deceived by such things will achieve Exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom. Only those with true charity can pass that test. Those who receive the Terrestrial Kingdom will be good honorable men and women in and out of the Church who did a lot of wonderful service and good things, but they were deceived by the crafty falsehoods and precepts of men.

I believe that someone who receives their C&E will not struggle with understanding anymore for they will be able to receive swift answers to their prayers, by personal revelations, visions and visitations. Angels will attend them and they will have true charity and will not be able to be deceived by all the philosophies of men that abound around us and falsehoods that everyone accepts today, even in the Church.

Those who have charity and their C&E will know truth from error, right from wrong and devils from saints, as easy as telling the night from the day.

Their problems and trials will generally come from without not from within their own mind and soul. Their tests may be health, money problems, spouse or children with problems, persecution, unrighteous dominion of church leaders, etc., but they will have peace in their own heart and mind 'about' (not necessarily 'in') their relationships with spouse, family and friends, and about general life and eternity. For they will have complete peace about themselves and their understanding of and standing with God. Their focus will be trying to help others, especially their spouse and children, achieve the same.

I believe that striving to have charity (unconditional Christlike love) with everyone, is how we gain our C&E, and in time after we have proved we can pass tests that are impossible to pass unless someone has true charity, we will then be given the promise of Eternal life and further enlightenment.

Here is what Joseph Smith said about charity and C&E:

"Until we have perfect love we are liable to fall; and when we have a testimony that our names are sealed in the Lamb's book of life, we have perfect love, and then it is impossible for false Christs to deceive us."
Encyclopedia of Joseph Smith's Teachings, p. 105., Minutes of a Conf. held at Orange, Ohio, 25 Oct. 1831.

[Markcaptain of 1,000]

Mark wrote:

Eric may I suggest checking out John Pontius unblog my soul and his books. John is a very humble man who has had incredible experiences with the spirit in his life. I went to one of his presentations last night and he discussed these sacred truths in a very appropriate and reverent way.

Is the same Mark from San Diego? I was there last night , Bro -- wish I could have met you. I did meet a few others from this forum there.

That very same reprobate Steve. I really enjoyed hearing Bro. Pontius testimony and loved the short concert by Kenneth Cope and also was very interested in the dialogue between Bro. Pontius and his friend Spencer at the end. It would be fascinating to hear the hours of tape that John made of his conversations with Spencer concerning his spiritual journey.

I feel we are entering into a very exciting and eventful time in this dispensation and many will be awakening to the rights and powers offered in a fullness of the Priesthood blessings promised with all the gifts of the spirit. The Lord waits for a prepared people who desire to come into his presence and build His Zion.

I desire to gain those promised blessings in my life for myself and my family and am strengthened to see it happening in the lives of others. It is wonderful to hear from those who do not doubt that these glorious opportunities can in fact occur while we are laboring in mortality and have in fact experienced many of these promised blessings for themselves. Hurrah for Zion!

[reesecaptain of 1,000]

Someone whose C&E has been made sure will still need to repent....daily. They will not be changed in amazing ways. They will still struggle to understand things. They will still struggle with the Lord to get answers. C&E does not make any significant changes to a person. All it does is tell them that they won't fail, that they will make it. It does not mean they CAN'T fall, it means they WON'T fall, but they will still have to struggle through the tests and trials. It also provides a catalyst for the kind of faith that is needed to part the veil and partake of all that God is offering us.

Not being deceived by the philosophies of men, falsehoods, false doctrine and false prophets is the test of this life.

No matter how wonderful of a person we are or how perfect our marriage is, or how many good children we raised, only those who weren't deceived by such things will achieve Exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom. Only those with true charity can pass that test. Those who receive the Terrestrial Kingdom will be good honorable men and women in and out of the Church who did a lot of wonderful service and good things, but they were deceived by the crafty falsehoods and precepts of men.

I believe that someone who receives their C&E will not struggle with understanding anymore for they will be able to receive swift answers to their prayers, by personal revelations, visions and visitations. Angels will attend them and they will have true charity and will not be able to be deceived by all the philosophies of men that abound around us and falsehoods that everyone accepts today, even in the Church.

Those who have charity and their C&E will know truth from error, right from wrong and devils from saints, as easy as telling the night from the day.

Their problems and trials will generally come from without not from within their own mind and soul. Their tests may be health, money problems, spouse or children with problems, persecution, unrighteous dominion of church leaders, etc., but they will have peace in their own heart and mind 'about' (not necessarily 'in') their relationships with spouse, family and friends, and about general life and eternity. For they will have complete peace about themselves and their understanding of and standing with God. Their focus will be trying to help others, especially their spouse and children, achieve the same.

I believe that striving to have charity (unconditional Christlike love) with everyone, is how we gain our C&E, and in time after we have proved we can pass tests that are impossible to pass unless someone has true charity, we will then be given the promise of Eternal life and further enlightenment.

Here is what Joseph Smith said about charity and C&E:

"Until we have perfect love we are liable to fall; and when we have a testimony that our names are sealed in the Lamb's book of life, we have perfect love, and then it is impossible for false Christs to deceive us."
Encyclopedia of Joseph Smith's Teachings, p. 105., Minutes of a Conf. held at Orange, Ohio, 25 Oct. 1831.

I'm going to have to disagree with you somewhat here awake. First of all I believe that Joseph Smith received his C&E long before 1843, when sec. 132 was put down on paper. I, like the heading of that sec. says, believe that much of the information found in that section was given to Joseph as early as 1831. In vs. 49 is where he receive his C&E--has his exaltation sealed upon him. Now lets look at vs. 19:

19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man amarry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and beverlasting covenant, and it is csealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of dpromise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the ekeys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit fthrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s gBook of Life, that he shall commit no hmurder whereby to shed innocent iblood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their jexaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the kseeds forever and ever.

...26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the aHoly Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they bcommit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be cdelivered unto the buffetings of dSatan unto the day of eredemption, saith the Lord God.

These verses make it clear that there is more to the picture than someone never being tempted and commiting sin again. Also, unfortunately , those who receive their C&E don't have perfect understanding and always get an answer immediately. Think of Alma late in his life, surely he had his C&E and yet he had to fast many days to gain an understanding of the ressurection. The Lord himself says of the last days that the deceptions will be so great that if it were possible even the elect would be deceived. The picture this brings to my mind is that of great deception, so much so that even those who are the Lord's will be in danger of being deceived. As he said only those who take the holy spirit for their guide and are not deceived will be saved. So whether a person has their C&E won't matter unless they are being guided in all things by the holy ghost.


Yes when someone has their C&E they have access to greater things. But it is still a learning process. Think of how often Jospeh was corrected and struggled for understanding. Okay, I have to stop, I'm writing amid chaos my children are running around like maniacs! eric I have to second what Mark said, unblogmysoul. is an excellent resource for understanding these things.

[awakecaptain of 100]

I'm going to have to disagree with you somewhat here awake. First of all I believe that Joseph Smith received his C&E long before 1843, when sec. 132 was put down on paper. The Lord himself says of the last days that the deceptions will be so great that if it were possible even the elect would be deceived. The picture this brings to my mind is that of great deception, so much so that even those who are the Lord's will be in danger of being deceived. As he said only those who take the holy spirit for their guide and are not deceived will be saved. So whether a person has their C&E won't matter unless they are being guided in all things by the holy ghost.

I didn't say they would have 'perfect' understanding about everything in a spiritual sense, I agree that they will still be learning, but I believe Joseph - that they won't be able to be deceived, for they will have Charity, which is the Holy Spirit as their guide. They will know enough that a person on earth cannot deceive them.

I appreciate your thoughts on this, but I do not believe in D&C 132 or that it came from Joseph Smith, so we will just have to agree to disagree.

[A Random Phrasecaptain of 1,000]

The Lord himself says of the last days that the deceptions will be so great that if it were possible even the elect would be deceived.

If I remember correctly, the JST says, "according to the covenant." I used to wonder a lot about what the covenant is. Tonight, I wondered if the covenant is one the Lord makes, face to face, with the individual. Surely, that person cannot be deceived, whereas, the rest of us can.

[awakecaptain of 100]

Awake, you should talk with some people who have personally received their C&E, and do some more studying on the subject. These things do not happen overnight. Also, I have been told by some I know who have received the Promise of Exaltation, that their trials and struggles and temptations have INCREASED. You are given certain promises (see D&C 76:50-70), but you still have to learn and grow and come to understand.... before all of those things happen. Read the MANY MANY accounts of those who have received their C&E in the scriptures. As I said, these things do not happen overnight - and they didn't necessarily for those people either. You are still the same person you were 5 min before receiving the Promise. But if you continue to work hard and study and pray and do everything by the spirit, you will learn quicker, and those things you mentioned will come more quickly and stronger than before until they DO become "the norm" for you.

I have talked with many of them and after doing so I don't believe they have really had the experience they say and think they did. I believe they have been deceived by a false Christ, as we have been warned will happen a lot today. I have never known of anyone who claims such an experience and promise who I believe has really received it from the true Christ, except Joseph Smith. Though I'm sure there are rare people out there who have, I have just never heard of them.

It just takes such a high degree of righteousness to achieve such, and I have never known of anyone who is that righteous. I would love to meet someone who is though.

And I agree that the trials of one who has had their C&E do usually increase, but those trials usually come from others, not within themselves about understanding the Gospel, for one needs to understand the Gospel very well to even get to that point and those who have gained such a promise have a great sense of peace and surety about their life. But that doesn't mean they know everything or still aren't learning and gaining knowledge from the Lord, they definitely are I agree.

[reesecaptain of 1,000]

I didn't say they would have 'perfect' understanding about everything in a spiritual sense, I agree that they will still be learning, but I believe Joseph - that they won't be able to be deceived, for they will have Charity, which is the Holy Spirit as their guide. They will know enough that a person on earth cannot deceive them.

I agree totally with you on this. The scripture says that "If it were possible..." that means it is NOT possible. Because they will have taken the holy spirit to be their guide. The Lord also says that he won't lose any that the Father has given him, I think he is talking about the same thing here.

I appreciate your thoughts on this, but I do not believe in D&C 132 or that it came from Joseph Smith, so we will just have to agree to disagree.

I knew this awake, sorry I forgot.


You also said:

I have talked with many of them and after doing so I don't believe they have really had the experience they say and think they did. I believe they have been deceived by a false Christ, as we have been warned will happen a lot today.

What if a person does not recieve their C&E from Christ while in his presence? What if it is given by the holy spirit of promise, is it possible to mistake the holy spirit for satan? Would the fruits that come of this promise help someone determine the source of the promise? Joseph said: "...the man will find his calling & Election made sure then it will be his privilege to receive the other Comforter which the Lord hath promised the saints as is recorded in the testimony of St John..." If this is how it works then a person receives C&E from the holy spirit and then is privileged to receive the Lord.

One thing that that Lord has made very clear to me is that we have so much false belief surrounding these things. We have put them in a place that they are near impossible for any person to even hope to attain. We can read in the scriptures, and the words of Joseph and they put no such limitations on these things, but encourage us all the least to the greatest to seek after and obtain these things. But is a tactic of satan to put them up high on a shelf where it nearly immpossible for any normal person to even hope for something like this. What is the point of the gospel if the fulness of it is not within each of our reach?

13- Come unto me, O ye Gentiles, and I will show unto you the greater things, the knowledge which is hid up because of unbelief.

[awakecaptain of 100]

What if a person does not recieve their C&E from Christ while in his presence? What if it is given by the holy spirit of promise, is it possible to mistake the holy spirit for satan? Would the fruits that come of this promise help someone determine the source of the promise? Joseph said: "...the man will find his calling & Election made sure then it will be his privilege to receive the other Comforter which the Lord hath promised the saints as is recorded in the testimony of St John..." If this is how it works then a person receives C&E from the holy spirit and then is privileged to receive the Lord.

One thing that that Lord has made very clear to me is that we have so much false belief surrounding these things. We have put them in a place that they are near impossible for any person to even hope to attain. We can read in the scriptures, and the words of Joseph and they put no such limitations on these things, but encourage us all the least to the greatest to seek after and obtain these things. But is a tactic of satan to put them up high on a shelf where it nearly immpossible for any normal person to even hope for something like this. What is the point of the gospel if the fulness of it is not within each of our reach?

13- Come unto me, O ye Gentiles, and I will show unto you the greater things, the knowledge which is hid up because of unbelief.

Yes, I believe people can easily be deceived by Satan, while still believing they have had their C&E made sure by the Spirit or even by Christ.

And I agree with you, that usually a person receives their C&E from the Holy Spirit 1st and then receives Christ's visitations later.

And I agree that how a person lives and acts and believes is the best indicator that they have truly received their C&E. By their fruits/love we will know who are Christ's true disciples.

I also agree that we are led to believe this is a hard or near impossible thing to achieve, yet I believe it is very possible for everyone to achieve, and though not easy, it is simple, if we really want it and are willing to strive to gain true Charity, which I believe is the key. When we gain and pass the test of true Charity then we will receive our C&E. I don't believe it has to take a lifetime.

I believe having true unconditional love/Charity for our spouse and family members is usually the hardest of all and where we usually show we can pass this test. Anyone, even the wicked, can love those who love them, that is no test, but loving those who don't love us or treat us right or don't deserve our love or even hate and persecute us, is the hardest test to pass in this life, and if we pass that we've made it.

[awakecaptain of 100]

It is ALWAYS ratified by the Spirit, even if the Savior delivers the promise Himself - hence, "The Holy Spirit of Promise".

When GOD has deemed us ready (NOT man.......), THEN we will receive our C&E.

Awake, MANKIND needs to quit deciding for God.... who is worthy/ready to receive His blessings - including the blessing of eternal life and exaltation. We cannot judge. Period. It might be helpful to read this thread from the beginning, and look up the references provided throughout, and study and fast and pray about them. You may see things you didn't before!

Jules, I agree that the Holy Spirit of Promise 'always' confirms it to us, by 'usually I mean't that I believe it's possible for some people to be visited by Christ 1st or in conjunction with the Holy Spirit, but I believe usually it's comes from just the Holy Spirit 1st.

And I don't mean to sound like I'm deciding for God, but I believe he works according to laws, and for every blessing we receive it is because we have kept the law upon which those blessings were predicated. So if we keep the law we get the blessing, it isn't up for a decision by even Heavenly Father, if we do as he has commanded us, he is bound to bless us. And Joseph taught that gaining Charity and receiving our C&E go hand in hand, to have one is to have the other. So to me it seems rather simple, though not easy, for true Charity is not easy.

[Thomascaptain of 1,000]

Thanks Jules. You are awesome, like a lot of people here are awesome. It is difficult to overcome the tradions of our fathers. My stumbling block is that I think I am unworthy to even ask, at this point.

I believe that I had the BFHG, a few years back, but didn't understand what I had. I think I lost the spirit by rebelling against it on a few minor issues. I did this without really understanding or realizing what I had done. I have struggled to recapture that feeling again and I am feeling it come back slowly and by bits and pieces.

I think we need to have a total surrender to God's will. That is the feeling I had, a few years back,that I surrender myself to thee. When I did this, I experienced the spirit more strongly than ever. We need to let Christ mold us, into what he knows we can be. We must totally surrender our will unto him and let him guide us down the path.

I have spent my time lately, pondering on what are the little things I do. that go against his will. I have realized, there are a few things that have been blocking my path. Knowing the goal is helpful, I didn't really understand a few years ago.

My PB blessed me with the ability to understand the gospel. When I first got that blessing, I thought I knew more than most already. I didn't really think it was that great of a blessing to get. Now I am beggining to understand, just how wonderful a blessing that was and now realize how much I still don't know.

[tmaccaptain of 1,000]

Thomas, thanks for sharing.

Now I am beggining to understand . . . and now realize how much I still don't know.

That seems to be the pattern. The more we learn, the more we come to better understand all the things we don't know.

[BigDcaptain of 100]

Thomas, thanks for sharing.

Now I am beggining to understand . . . and now realize how much I still don't know.

That seems to be the pattern. The more we learn, the more we come to better understand all the things we don't know.

How funny is that. FWIW, the more I study and ponder the scriptures, the more things seem to pop out at me. I almost feel as though I could spend a whole year studying just two or three chapters in 3 Nephi and still not comprehend everything that is there. What an amazing book?

Maybe that is why the wisest among us realize how little they understand and what fools they are (and we all are) before our Heavenly Father and His Son Jesus Christ. Maybe that is why the wisest among us know to ask our Heavenly Father about everything before they assume they understand anything.