Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space?

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What do you think about Joseph Fielding Smith's moon prophecy?

He spoke out about something quasi-political. As a Church official, he should have known to leave well enough alone.
6
4%
It was his personal opinion and he was wrong about it. Big deal.
49
35%
I think this is proof he was a "false prophet."
1
1%
He's human...sometimes even Prophets or Apostles get stuff wrong.
26
18%
Joseph Fielding Smith was right about the moon, and still is to this day.
60
42%
 
Total votes: 142
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SmallFarm
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Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

Post by SmallFarm »

shadow wrote:
SmallFarm wrote:Have you guys noticed all the instances in the media (commercials, sitcoms etc.) where they use the words "weird moon landing denier guy"? Just a trend I've been noticing lately.
I haven't noticed but I don't have TV service.
I did notice a prophet of God make reference to man going to the moon though. Did anyone else notice that? #-o
FWIW I voted for it being his own opinion and he was wrong, big deal (I didn't vote that until I heard Pres. Monson's words, BTW). I was just pointing out the fact that free thinkers and people willing to question official stories are being further marginalized in todays society. :)

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7cylon7
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Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

Post by 7cylon7 »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CT2k3gdo ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;[flash=][/flash]




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7cylon7
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Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

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go to 34:00 and view this...

Raindrop
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Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

Post by Raindrop »

BrianM wrote:
When President Monson said "WE" have been to the moon, he meant "WE" as in those LDS Missionaries that some prophet/patriarchs had said would preach the Gospel to the inhabitants of the Moon.
Wow. You're serious? :-o

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Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

Post by creator »

Raindrop wrote:
BrianM wrote:When President Monson said "WE" have been to the moon, he meant "WE" as in those LDS Missionaries that some prophet/patriarchs had said would preach the Gospel to the inhabitants of the Moon.
Wow. You're serious? :-o
I wasn't being serious about interpreting what Pres. Monson meant by his statement.

It is a fact that some early Saints were told they would preach the Gospel to the inhabitants of the Moon, and it's reported that Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and others had something to say about the moon and it being inhabited. I didn't make that part up. Here's just two of the multiple sources:
In my patriarchal blessing, given by the father of Joseph the Prophet, in Kirtland, 1837, I was told that I should preach the gospel before I was 21 years of age; that I should preach the gospel to the inhabitants upon the islands of the sea, and -- to the inhabitants of the moon, even the planet you can now behold with your eyes." ( Oliver B. Huntington - Young Woman's Journal 3:263-264. )
Brigham Young: "Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening, called the moon?... when you inquire about the inhabitants of that sphere you find that the most learned are as ignorant in regard to them as the most ignorant of their fathers. So it is in regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not made in vain. It was made to give light to those who dwell upon it, and to other planets; and so will this earth when it is celestialized" ( Brigham Young, July 24, 1870, Journal of Discourses 13:271 )

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iamse7en
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Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

Post by iamse7en »

This is relevant to the discussion. :)

“When they have 13,000 Americans living on the moon, they can petition to become a state.”
“By the end of my second term, we will have the first permanent base on the moon and it will be American."
“I believe that space tourism will be a common fact of life during the adulthood of children born this year, that honeymoons in space will be the vogue by 2020 ... Imagine weightlessness and its effects and you will understand some of the attractions.”

Sources: Politico & The DC

Well, I finally found a reason to hope for a Newt presidency. He'll hire many hollywood hacks to stage this new moon colony. I wonder if James Cameron is busy. Then Americans can go about their day, happy as clams, knowing that Obama killed Osama and you can have sex on the moon.

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jcricket6048
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Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

Post by jcricket6048 »

SmallFarm wrote:Have you guys noticed all the instances in the media (commercials, sitcoms etc.) where they use the words "weird moon landing denier guy"? Just a trend I've been noticing lately.
do not mean to bust your bubble on this but has anyone looked at the astronauts who supposedly gone to the moon and back? Do we have any testament of those guys saying that they did not go to the moon and that it is all a fake? If that was so then they would be paid millions of dollars just to be quiet on this issue. I do not see anything here that would warrant what you guys are talking about. first of all someone has to spill the beans in this issue then there would be investigation on this waste going on. So someone is just fishing on this issue which makes no sense about a fake moon landing.

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Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

Post by takmuieo »

Wow after reading this thread... [edited by administrator]

After the landing:

Joseph: Well, I was wrong, wasn't I?

http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_ ... _news.conf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I have had several friends who have worked for NASA, and one of them is a good friend of mine who is an associate professor at Cal Poly Pomona. I am just simply dumbfounded. It is like watching people deny the Holocaust, [edited by administrator].

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Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

Post by Ishmaeli »

Seriously you guys. Do you realize that this thread is being linked to all over the Internet today, as evidence for just how crazy and deluded Mormons are? Have you noticed that the record for number of guests online has been blown away?

This thread is single-handedly unraveling months of PR work by the Church (and the Romney campaign) to convince the American public that Mormons are normal, rational, educated citizens.

Way to go, guys.

natasha
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Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

Post by natasha »

Ishmaeli wrote:Seriously you guys. Do you realize that this thread is being linked to all over the Internet today, as evidence for just how crazy and deluded Mormons are? Have you noticed that the record for number of guests online has been blown away?

This thread is single-handedly unraveling months of PR work by the Church (and the Romney campaign) to convince the American public that Mormons are normal, rational, educated citizens.

Way to go, guys.
Ishmaeli: Thanks for making me laugh! However, get ready for the onslaught against you!

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Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

Post by durangout »

Ishmaeli wrote:Seriously you guys. Do you realize that this thread is being linked to all over the Internet today, as evidence for just how crazy and deluded Mormons are? Have you noticed that the record for number of guests online has been blown away?

This thread is single-handedly unraveling months of PR work by the Church (and the Romney campaign) to convince the American public that Mormons are normal, rational, educated citizens.

Way to go, guys.
It's not called LDSFreakForum for nothin'!

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durangout
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Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

Post by durangout »

jcricket6048 wrote:
SmallFarm wrote:Have you guys noticed all the instances in the media (commercials, sitcoms etc.) where they use the words "weird moon landing denier guy"? Just a trend I've been noticing lately.
do not mean to bust your bubble on this but has anyone looked at the astronauts who supposedly gone to the moon and back? Do we have any testament of those guys saying that they did not go to the moon and that it is all a fake? If that was so then they would be paid millions of dollars just to be quiet on this issue. I do not see anything here that would warrant what you guys are talking about. first of all someone has to spill the beans in this issue then there would be investigation on this waste going on. So someone is just fishing on this issue which makes no sense about a fake moon landing.
Don't you know they used MOSSAD supplied thermite to simulate rocket engine fire? The rest was done on a sound stage. Sheesh!

JohnnyL
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Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

Post by JohnnyL »

A source, a few points:
http://bookofmormonnotes.wordpress.com/ ... -he-wrong-" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
by-grego/

A few more things I add:
In "A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Moon" there are a few good parts. One of the best is Buzz Aldrin's (?) basically "how much money can you give me if I say we didn't go, because I'm living a great life right now". OUCH.
Then, the whole fake filming thing.

But I agree that the radiation is really hard to overcome.

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shadow
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Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

Post by shadow »

JohnnyL wrote:

But I agree that the radiation is really hard to overcome.
Not really-

"Implications for space travelMissions beyond low earth orbit leave the protection of the geomagnetic field, and transit the Van Allen belts. Thus they may need to be shielded against exposure to cosmic rays, Van Allen radiation, or solar flares. The region between two to four earth radii lies between the two radiation belts and is sometimes referred to as the "safe zone".[18][19]

Solar cells, integrated circuits, and sensors can be damaged by radiation. Geomagnetic storms occasionally damage electronic components on spacecraft. Miniaturization and digitization of electronics and logic circuits have made satellites more vulnerable to radiation, as the total charge in these circuits is now small enough so as to be comparable with the charge of incoming ions. Electronics on satellites must be hardened against radiation to operate reliably. The Hubble Space Telescope, among other satellites, often has its sensors turned off when passing through regions of intense radiation.[20] A satellite shielded by 3 mm of aluminium in an elliptic orbit (200 by 20,000 miles) passing through the radiation belts will receive about 2,500 rem (25 Sv) per year. Almost all radiation will be received while passing the inner belt.[21]

The Apollo missions marked the first event where humans traveled through the Van Allen belts, which was one of several radiation hazards known by mission planners. The astronauts had low exposure in the Van Allen belts due to the short period of time spent flying through them in the heavily-shielded Command Module. In fact, the astronauts' overall exposure was dominated by solar particles once outside the earth's magnetic field. The total radiation received by the astronauts varied from mission to mission but was measured to be between 0.16 and 1.14 rads, much less than the standard of five (5) rem per year set by the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission for people who work with radioactivity."

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Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

Post by JohnnyL »

shadow wrote:
JohnnyL wrote: But I agree that the radiation is really hard to overcome.
Not really-
Wondering if you read the pages in the linked articles on space radiation?

By the way, those links and others connected to them say a lot more about the moon hoax, answering questions and postulating arguments (rebutting) much of what has been posted.

I thought it was interesting how Abraham says the moon is "higher" than the earth, and that that could be where JFS got it from.

firend
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Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

Post by firend »

It should be obvious that the public footage of the moon landing was faked. The argument should be:

either we went to the moon, found pyramids and human remains proving we are not alone, even maybe pre-flood technology

or we never went to the moon and wanted to beat russia supposedly

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patriotsaint
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Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

Post by patriotsaint »

I think it's telling that so many on this thread look down their noses and scoff at those who think that maybe the prophet was right.

Is the idea that we never went to the moon harder to believe than the idea that God himself and his son appeared to a 14 year old boy? That an angel later appeared to him and told him where to find a book of gold scripture? That he translated this scripture by the use of seer stones at first and the whisperings of the spirit later? What about the belief that Jesus of Nazareth somehow took upon himself the sins of all, and that after he was crucified he took up his life again?

If you believe in LDS doctrine you already believe in things that cannot be proved and are superstitious, sensational and silly in the eyes of the world. Why all the condescension toward those who doubt the narrative of the moon landing given to us by a gadianton led government?

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Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

Post by Looking Forward »

firend wrote:It should be obvious that the public footage of the moon landing was faked. The argument should be:

either we went to the moon, found pyramids and human remains proving we are not alone, even maybe pre-flood technology

or we never went to the moon and wanted to beat russia supposedly
Or we wanted to beat the Russians so we faked the first moon landing, but went later.

firend
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Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

Post by firend »

Looking Forward wrote:
firend wrote:It should be obvious that the public footage of the moon landing was faked. The argument should be:

either we went to the moon, found pyramids and human remains proving we are not alone, even maybe pre-flood technology

or we never went to the moon and wanted to beat russia supposedly
Or we wanted to beat the Russians so we faked the first moon landing, but went later.
right, ya that could be the third "or" i forgot to add, thanks

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Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

Post by shadow »

patriotsaint wrote:I think it's telling that so many on this thread look down their noses and scoff at those who think that maybe the prophet was right.

Is the idea that we never went to the moon harder to believe than the idea that God himself and his son appeared to a 14 year old boy? That an angel later appeared to him and told him where to find a book of gold scripture? That he translated this scripture by the use of seer stones at first and the whisperings of the spirit later? What about the belief that Jesus of Nazareth somehow took upon himself the sins of all, and that after he was crucified he took up his life again?

If you believe in LDS doctrine you already believe in things that cannot be proved and are superstitious, sensational and silly in the eyes of the world. Why all the condescension toward those who doubt the narrative of the moon landing given to us by a gadianton led government?
The Prophet (not an apostle as was JFS), Pres. Monson, clearly stated that we've been to the moon. His words are directly from him and you and I can even watch him say it by watching GC re-runs.

JFS, after becoming the Prophet, was asked about his earlier moon comments. His reply- "Well, I was wrong wasn't I?"
And to be clear, Elder Smith's exact words were these-

"...it is doubtful that man will ever be permitted to make any instrument or ship to travel through space and visit the moon or any distant planet"

From his grandson-

As to the men on the moon issue, I was present on at least one occasion when President Smith said it. It was a Sunday dinner at our house. My grandfather, Oscar W. McConkie, had asked President Smith if he thought the Lord would allow us to get to other worlds and communicate with the people on them. President Smith indicated that he did not. He reasoned that because the atonement that Christ worked out on this earth applies to all the creations of the Father, that our getting to other worlds and discovering that they had the same Savior and the same plan of salvation would dispense with the necessity of our accepting the gospel on the basis of faith. To dramatize the point he said, "I don't even think the Lord will let men get to the moon." I concurred with President Smith's reasoning then and do so now. What he said, in my judgment, was right. The illustration he used to dramatize his point has since proven to be in error. It, however, has nothing to do with the point he was making. To dismiss everything else he said on the basis of one faulty illustration is, I would suggest, a far greater error and may frankly be grounds to question whether those saying it deserve credence, not whether Joseph Fielding Smith does.

So the question is- Do you believe Pres. Monson? Or do you look down and scoff at those that believe him?

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patriotsaint
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Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

Post by patriotsaint »

shadow wrote:The Prophet (not an apostle as was JFS)
Are not the 12 sustained as prophets, seers and revelators? This argument is no argument in my mind.
shadow wrote:So the question is- Do you believe Pres. Monson? Or do you look down and scoff at those that believe him?
Have I scoffed at anyone in this thread? All I have done is point out that we believe some pretty fantastic things in the church, so I don't get the super critical attitude toward those who have doubts regarding the moon landing.

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Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

Post by livy111us »

FYI, FAIR has an article on this topic: http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_ ... n_the_Moon" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Latter-day Saint doctrine allows prophets their own opinions and views, which are not regarded as either infallible or binding upon Church members. Only Jesus Christ was perfect; LDS prophets follow the biblical model of being fallible men of their time called by God to accomplish his purposes. So safeguard against the foibles or mistakes of individuals, God uses the united voice of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve apostles to establish official doctrine and interpretation.
No one need trust a prophet's word alone on any issue—either of great or small importance. All members are encouraged to seek their own revelation from God, and to accept and act on the truth that he reveals to them by scriptures, by prophets, and by the Holy Ghost.


Supporting Data

In the first edition of his work Answers to Gospel Questions, Joseph Fielding Smith wrote:
The Savior said that preceding his coming there would be signs in the heavens. No doubt there will be appearances of commotion among the heavenly bodies. We are informed by prophecy that the earth will reel to and fro. This will make it appear like the stars are falling. The sun will be darkened and the moon look like blood. All of these wonders will take place before Christ comes. Naturally the wonders in the heavens that man has created will be numbered among the signs which have been predicted—the airplanes, the guided missiles, and man-made planets that revolve around the earth. Keep it in mind, however, that such man-made planets belong to this earth, and it is doubtful that man will ever be permitted to make any instrument or ship to travel through space and visit the moon or any distant planet (italics added).[1]
Attempting to make this is a "prophesy," or a declarative statement of Church doctrine is improper, for the following reasons:
President Smith was not the president of the Church when this statement. Only the President of the Church, sustained by his counselors and the Quorum of the Twelve, may declare new official doctrine.
The statement merely expresses doubt about the idea, clearly an expression of personal belief or conclusion.
Latter-day Saints do not believe in the doctrine of prophetic infallibility.
Following the Apollo moon landings and the death of President David O. McKay, President Smith became president of the Church. At a press conference following his assumption of Church leadership, he was asked by a reporter about this statement. President Smith replied:
Well, I was wrong, wasn't I?[2]
A grandson of President Smith noted:
Growing up as a son of Bruce R. McConkie and a grandson of Joseph Fielding Smith had its moments. One of the experiences that my brothers and sisters and I shared regularly was to listen to people make disparaging remarks about our father or grandfather in Sunday School or other church classes. You could pretty well depend on the fact that if someone quoted either Elder McConkie or President Smith, that someone else would immediately respond with some kind of an insulting retort. I don't think it bothered any of us to have someone disagree with our father or grandfather, we just couldn't understand why the disagreement seemed so mean-spirited. One of the classic responses that is made to discredit anything Joseph Fielding Smith said is to remind everyone that he said that men would never get to the moon. The idea being that if he said one thing that was incorrect then how can we possibly be expected to believe anything else he said....
As to the men on the moon issue, I was present on at least one occasion when President Smith said it. It was a Sunday dinner at our house. My grandfather, Oscar W. McConkie, had asked President Smith if he thought the Lord would allow us to get to other worlds and communicate with the people on them. President Smith indicated that he did not. He reasoned that because the atonement that Christ worked out on this earth applies to all the creations of the Father, that our getting to other worlds and discovering that they had the same Savior and the same plan of salvation would dispense with the necessity of our accepting the gospel on the basis of faith. To dramatize the point he said, "I don't even think the Lord will let men get to the moon." I concurred with President Smith's reasoning then and do so now. What he said, in my judgment, was right. The illustration he used to dramatize his point has since proven to be in error. It, however, has nothing to do with the point he was making. To dismiss everything else he said on the basis of one faulty illustration is, I would suggest, a far greater error and may frankly be grounds to question whether those saying it deserve credence, not whether Joseph Fielding Smith does.[3]

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Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

Post by Dusty »

His status as a true prophet does not mean he is prophesying at all times with every word uttered or written.


There is not a shred of evidence that he intended those words to be taken as a prophetic statement.


The United States DID NOT and has never left an orbit path around the earth. That was all Hollywood and done only because the Russian's made it first to a point far enough away to be in black sky. The scientists at NASA are bright, but by not fully disclosing what they do not know, they are truthfully conning the public. The truth is that NASA does not even fully understand gravity and to be honest I do not believe the "curious" mars lander either.

But these are exciting times, as we are on the verge of realizing powerful simple truths, that man has done a phenomenal job devising explanations and has come extremely close to being correct, but have none the less fallen short of the truth. Which there would be nothing wrong with it until they do things like imply they do understand orbits and gravity well enough to slingshot around the moon, which is a complete lie. No man has ever journeyed so far from the earths surface, that they orbited another celestial body other than earth, at least not a body of flesh and blood.

Gravity and inertia of celestial body's motion is not the only the only force that keeps thing in their orbit path. What they do not tell you of is the "vibration" of everything. Without our solar system experiencing what is only described as a brownian-like Celestial movement, things like the moon only showing one side and the orbits of comets would not be observed as they currently are.

There is no reason to discount a prophet for the statements JFS made, especially not based upon the fact that the the majority of the world believes the hoax put together because of NASA was a little but hurt over the Russian advancements and could not deal with being shown up.

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Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

Post by JohnnyL »

shadow wrote:So the question is- Do you believe Pres. Monson?
No, I don't. And...?
Were we supposed to? Do you expect us to, because of that comment?

Do you believe Pres. Packer when it comes to vaccines being good, and the folly of natural immunization?
Did you believe the leaders about statements before, about homosexual sexual desire?
Did you believe the leaders about the Blacks never getting the priesthood?

Hey, swords can be double-edged! :D

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shadow
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Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

Post by shadow »

JohnnyL wrote:

Hey, swords can be double-edged! :D
That was the point I was making.
Remember, it was JFS's words that were used to bolster the position that man didn't go to the moon (note the title of the thread). Turns out he said he was wrong. Turns out a prophet said we did go to the moon. Fortunately the moon trip, whether it happened or not, has absolutely nothing to do with my salvation.

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