Identifying and NOT supporting latter-day Gadiantons

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Re: Identifying and NOT supporting latter-day Gadiantons

Postby larsenb » Thu May 31, 2012 9:59 pm

Here is something from a Wikipedia sketch of Dr. Samuelson; apparently something he said in a talk in commemoration of the 'Year of the Constitution, 2007':

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cecil_O._Samuelson

President Samuelson gave a talk in September 2007 to BYU students on the theme "The Year of the Constitution". In his talk he stated that the Constitution of the United States is not complete yet, and must be altered to adapt to a changing world. He also stated, in agreement with the doctrine of LDS Church, that the Constitution is a divinely inspired document.


This goes a long way in explaining the man and his actions, to me at least. Very telling. It also raises the question as to whether he thinks the alterations to it and how its is currently being interpreted is also divinely inspired.

With this, Cecil comes into better focus for me.
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Re: Identifying and NOT supporting latter-day Gadiantons

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Re: Identifying and NOT supporting latter-day Gadiantons

Postby LukeAir2008 » Thu May 31, 2012 10:37 pm

Ok, ok, I'll take it down
The world is governed by very different personages from what is imagined by those who are not behind the scenes.
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Re: Identifying and NOT supporting latter-day Gadiantons

Postby Vision » Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:42 am

Dr. Jones

I thought I would share my Bishoprics message for our Ward newsletter for the month of May. It fits right in with this topic. Only one couple in my Ward approached me to discuss this message. They keenly wanted to know what my point was about political aspirations. I asked them to apply the lesson of Zeniff to the current candidates and come to their own conclusions.


"On April 16th, 1789 George Washington spoke these words in speech to the citizens of Alexandria Virginia. This speech was given two weeks before he was inaugurated as the first President of the United States,
“Those, who have known me best (and you, my fellow citizens, are from your situation, in that number) know better than any others that my love of retirement is so great, that no earthly consideration, short of a conviction of duty, could have prevailed upon me to depart from my resolution, " never more to take any share in transactions of a public nature." For, at my age, and in my circumstances, what possible advantages could I propose to myself, from embarking again on the tempestuous and uncertain ocean of public-life?”
Contrast this with the Book of Mormon account of Zeniff found in Mosiah chapter 9. Zeniff writes in his own words in verse 3 of chapter 9 “And yet, I being over zealous to inherit the land of our fathers”. Chapter 9 deserves close study to see how a people once righteous, are led into bondage by an over-zealous leader. Zeniff desired to inherit the land of his father and to be made king over the land to the point that he caused a war within the Nephite army. In short his people were led into bondage by his aspirations.
We are in a time of great religious and political confusion because of the presidential election. Where do we turn to find “truth” amongst so many conflicting opinions? I gave you a big hint above, the Book of Mormon. Along with the Book of Mormon all the scriptures teach us about patterns that repeat themselves through out the history of human kind. Using the Book of Mormon as our guide we can discern with the guidance of the Holy Spirit which patterns apply to our day and therefore exercise our agency to find candidates that will uphold the rule of law as defined by the Constitution of the United States. D& C 101: 77 tells us the Constitution is a divinely inspired document. With this knowledge we can sift through the rhetoric and sound bites to come to a conclusion.
One conclusion that we have to come to as members of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is this conclusion taught by D. Todd Christofferson in the October 2009 Conference.
“Policemen and laws can never replace customs, traditions and moral values as a means for regulating human behavior. At best, the police and criminal justice system are the last desperate line of defense for a civilized society. Our increased reliance on laws to regulate behavior is a measure of how uncivilized we’ve become.”

To Conclude I plead with you to exercise your right to be led by the Holy Ghost. Some may be thinking this message is political, but I would counter with the words of President Hinckley
“The Book of Mormon narrative is a chronicle of nations long since gone. But in its descriptions of the problems of today’s society, it is as current as the morning newspaper and much more definitive, inspired, and inspiring concerning the solutions of those problems.
I know of no other writing which sets forth with such clarity the tragic consequences to societies that follow courses contrary to the commandments of God. Its pages trace the stories of two distinct civilizations that flourished on the Western Hemisphere. Each began as a small nation, its people walking in the fear of the Lord. But with prosperity came growing evils. The people succumbed to the wiles of ambitious and scheming leaders who oppressed them with burdensome taxes, who lulled them with hollow promises, who countenanced and even encouraged loose and lascivious living. These evil schemers led the people into terrible wars that resulted in the death of millions and the final and total extinction of two great civilizations in two different eras.”

I cannot write a message greater than these words of President Hinckley. I close in the sacred name of Jesus Christ, Amen"
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Re: Identifying and NOT supporting latter-day Gadiantons

Postby larsenb » Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:42 am

Vision wrote: . . . . . Contrast this with the Book of Mormon account of Zeniff found in Mosiah chapter 9. Zeniff writes in his own words in verse 3 of chapter 9 “And yet, I being over zealous to inherit the land of our fathers”. Chapter 9 deserves close study to see how a people once righteous, are led into bondage by an over-zealous leader. Zeniff desired to inherit the land of his father and to be made king over the land to the point that he caused a war within the Nephite army. In short his people were led into bondage by his aspirations. . . . . . . .

I give the story of Zeniff a different read. To my understanding Zeniff was first sent to spy out the Land of Nephi because of his previous knowledge of it. He was sent out as part of an army that was intent on attacking the Lamanites. It was only when he saw much that was good there that he tried to talk the leader of the army into NOT attacking the Lamanites; which leader then ordered him killed, causing a rift in the army that eventually caused the death of many them.

In my view, Zeniff is taking the right/righteous course in trying to prevent the army from 'going up into the lands of another people to attack them'. This is very much in keeping with the philosophy of a just war found throughout the Book of Mormon.

Also, he may have been overly ambitious/zealous or foolhardy to think he could go back to the former habitat of the Nephites to repossess it, but I don't see him doing this so he could be the mucky-muck king over those who went with him. On his spying trip he may have seen what a goodly land the Nephites had left to the point of seeing his whole venture with rose-covered glasses. What he had seen made him overly confidant.
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Re: Identifying and NOT supporting latter-day Gadiantons

Postby Vision » Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:23 am

larsenb wrote:
Vision wrote: . . . . . Contrast this with the Book of Mormon account of Zeniff found in Mosiah chapter 9. Zeniff writes in his own words in verse 3 of chapter 9 “And yet, I being over zealous to inherit the land of our fathers”. Chapter 9 deserves close study to see how a people once righteous, are led into bondage by an over-zealous leader. Zeniff desired to inherit the land of his father and to be made king over the land to the point that he caused a war within the Nephite army. In short his people were led into bondage by his aspirations. . . . . . . .

I give the story of Zeniff a different read. To my understanding Zeniff was first sent to spy out the Land of Nephi because of his previous knowledge of it. He was sent out as part of an army that was intent on attacking the Lamanites. It was only when he saw much that was good there that he tried to talk the leader of the army into NOT attacking the Lamanites; which leader then ordered him killed, causing a rift in the army that eventually caused the death of many them.

In my view, Zeniff is taking the right/righteous course in trying to prevent the army from 'going up into the lands of another people to attack them'. This is very much in keeping with the philosophy of a just war found throughout the Book of Mormon.

Also, he may have been overly ambitious/zealous or foolhardy to think he could go back to the former habitat of the Nephites to repossess it, but I don't see him doing this so he could be the mucky-muck king over those who went with him. On his spying trip he may have seen what a goodly land the Nephites had left to the point of seeing his whole venture with rose-covered glasses. What he had seen made him overly confidant.


You are correct in your accounts as recorded.


I see Zeniff as erring when his desire to possess the land of fathers clouded his judgement and that is what caused the war within the Nephite army. Who was the catalyst that sparked the civil war? The results of his desires reveal his motivations. The results of bondage, high taxes, wars and the deaths of innocent lives associated with war all came about because of Zeniff's desires. The results were not good for the people with his generation and the succeeding generation.

You have to ask the question, why was Mormon inspired to record this story for inclusion into the abridgment? And the follow up question that goes hand in hand with the first question, what am I supposed to learn from this account?

Additionally we are reading these verses in first person from Zeniff's own words. Of course his leader was blood thirsty because he conflicted with Zeniff's desire to occupy the land. Those are labels that Zeniff applies to his leader. The Nephite's had a pattern of fighting wars to reclaim lost lands. So was the leader really blood thirsty when they were trying to reclaim land lost to the Lamanites in war? Sending an army to reclaim land fits the pattern of the Nephites wars at this point in the BOM.

We have to study the BOM without the Nephite filter. There are many messages within the BOM Mormon that are lost when it is studied within the framework of the left/right, liberal/conservative, good Nephite/bad Lamanite filters that living in present day America forces upon us. Once I stopped filtering the BOM through those perspectives I have gained a whole new appreciation for the BOM and I have also learned many lessons that I should have learned years ago because my own views were flawed because of the cultural traditions that teach us the Nephite are righteous, and the Lamanites are un righteous.
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Re: Identifying and NOT supporting latter-day Gadiantons

Postby Original_Intent » Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:27 am

But....Nephites were Republicans....right??? :-?
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Re: Identifying and NOT supporting latter-day Gadiantons

Postby Vision » Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:47 pm

[quote="Original_Intent"]But....Nephites were Republicans....right??? :-?[/quote

Of course they were.
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Re: Identifying and NOT supporting latter-day Gadiantons

Postby HeirofNumenor » Fri Jun 01, 2012 5:22 pm

Actually, at the time of Zeniff, the lands the Nephites lost were not lost due to war, but through abandonment... 1st, Nephi and his followers left Laman & Lemuel after Lehi died (2 Nephi 5)... then in the Book of Omni, we read that the Lord told Mosiah 1 to take as many Nephites as would listen & follow, and to flee out of the land (presumably before the Lord destroyed the rest (wicked Nephites)).
"Yet it is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succor of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know...What weather they shall have is not ours to rule."
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Re: Identifying and NOT supporting latter-day Gadiantons

Postby DrJones » Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:27 am

My friend David Allan has written a fine essay that relates to this thread of " Identifying and NOT supporting latter-day Gadiantons". David served as Stake President in Colorado (Boulder, IIRC).

I post his essay with his permission; read it here:
http://www.allanstime.com/Government/Is ... _we_do.htm


Is Our Defense for our defense? If not, what can we do?

by
David W. Allan
May 27, 2012

I am most grateful for those who have given their lives for the liberty we have enjoyed in this Land of the Free. Our US Constitution provides “for the common defense... and secure the blessings of Liberty for ourselves and our Posterity...” However, a violation of our Constitution of enormous magnitude was perpetrated on the American people by the elite, which included some government leaders and the media, with the events of 9/11. Scientific evidence clearly points to controlled demolition of the Twin Towers and of Building 7, which had no airplane impact – all three of them coming down in “near free-fall motion,” as happens in controlled demolition. Super-thermite has been documented in the dust, which explains how they were destroyed. Falling as they did in “near free-fall motion” is physically impossible from just the impact of the airplanes and from the fire in Building 7. Several peer reviewed science papers and books have been written documenting this: See http://www.journalof911studies.com/ Americans have been duped into believe a lie of enormous proportions. We will see who and why.



Additionally, the Constitution provides for the, “calling forth of the Militia... [to] suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions.” Our AF fighters were kept on the ground, when they could have been launched to protect us during the 9/11 disasters. Why? Vice President Dick Cheney is recorded monitoring the airplane (missile?) hitting the Pentagon. With plenty of time to launch counter measures he took no action to avoid that disaster. President George W. Bush lied on several occasions about why we were attacking Iraq. See the documentary DVD Why We Fight (2005 PG-13 98 minutes) – filmed during the Iraq War and directed by Eugene Jarecki's Sundance Grand Jury Award-winning film documentary. For additional information, watch on-line Loose Change and Invisible Empire.



Nick Rockefeller told Aaron Russo 11 months before 9/11 happened that an event was being planned that would make Americans be behind the “war on terrorists” – justifying the attack on Iraq and Afghanistan – making it look like we are defending our nation. See this insightful 1 hour interview with Aaron: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 0426590918 See also his excellent movie: Freedom to Fascism, in which he documents that the IRS is the biggest mafia on the planet. When people ask him, “Should we pay our taxes?” He says, “Yes; otherwise, they will hurt you.”



President Dwight D. Eisenhower prophetically spoke of our military getting out of control and out of the bounds set by our Constitution. Excerpts from his closing talk (17 January 1961) just before exiting as president in their poignance are shared here: (bold is added for emphasis).

Good evening my fellow Americans...



Three days from now, after half century in the service of our country, I shall lay down the responsibilities of office as, in traditional and solemn ceremony, the authority of the Presidency is vested in my successor. This evening, I come to you with a message of leave-taking and farewell, and to share a few final thoughts with you, my countrymen...



We now stand ten years past the mid point of a century that has witnessed four major wars among great nations.



Throughout America's adventure in free government, our basic purposes have been to keep the peace, to foster progress in human achievement, and to enhance liberty, dignity, and integrity among peoples and among nations. To strive for less would be unworthy of a free and religious people...



Progress toward these noble goals is persistently threatened by the conflict now engulfing the world. It commands our whole attention, absorbs our very beings. We face a hostile ideology [communism] global in scope, atheistic in character, ruthless in purpose, and [insidious] in method. Unhappily, the danger it poses promises to be of indefinite duration. To meet it successfully, there is called for,... those [who] enable us to carry forward steadily, surely, and without complaint the burdens of a prolonged and complex struggle with liberty the stake.



A vital element in keeping the peace is our military establishment. Our arms must be mighty, ready for instant action, so that no potential aggressor may be tempted to risk his own destruction...



Until the latest of our world conflicts, the United States had no armaments industry. American makers of plowshares could, with time and as required, make swords as well. But we can no longer risk emergency improvisation of national defense. We have been compelled to create a permanent armaments industry of vast proportions. Added to this, three and a half million men and women are directly engaged in the defense establishment.



Now this conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence -- economic, political, even spiritual -- is felt in every city, every Statehouse, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet, we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources, and livelihood are all involved. So is the very structure of our society.



In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.



You and I, my fellow citizens, need to be strong in our faith that all nations, under God, will reach the goal of peace with justice. May we be ever unswerving in devotion to principle, confident but humble with power, diligent in pursuit of the Nations' great goals.



... Those who have freedom will understand, also, its heavy responsibility; that all who are insensitive to the needs of others will learn charity; and that the sources -- scourges of poverty, disease, and ignorance will be made [to] disappear from the earth; and that in the goodness of time, all peoples will come to live together in a peace guaranteed by the binding force of mutual respect and love.



Thank you, and good night.



He also said, “God help this country when somebody sits at this desk [as President in the Oval Office] who doesn’t know as much about the military as I do.” No one since him knows as much and we now critically need God’s help. One of the hardest things for me right now is when I hear people say that our military is protecting our freedoms. It breaks my heart that our men and women go off to war with good intentions that they are fighting for our liberty when, in fact, I know the new world order has effectively taken over our “military industrial complex” with power and gain motives in their hearts, as President Eisenhower warned against. They make it appear that they are for our defense, but in fact they could declare martial law and our military would be our enemy.



Our Constitution also provides that only congress can “declare war.” Now, through unconstitutional executive orders, the President declares war – coordinating with the UN – further destroying our sovereign nation status. An excellent historian, Trevor Loudon, has shown in his book, Barack Obama and the Enemies Within, that President Obama has been groomed over the last decades to move the (far left) communist agenda forward in this country. His marching orders are from them. Even though he appears to be serving the middle-class American worker using the typical communist disinformation strategy, when in fact they are the target of the conspiracy designed by the elitists. Several have used Loudon’s book as reference material – including Glenn Beck – not disputing the points of fact therein. A talk he gave in March 2012 in Colorado, summarizing his book, may be found at the bottom of the following link in two mp3 files. He not only tells why we are where we are, but what we can do. http://www.allanstime.com/Government/Ba ... es_within/



In all of this, I do not fear, because I know who is really in charge and to trust in Him is the greatest opportunity of our existence. I see all of this as the signs of the times and fulfillment of prophecy. For me, it is the most exciting time in the history of the earth. We have every reason to hope if we understand the work of the Lord. If we move into fear, doubt, hate, anxiety, etc., these are tools of the adversary. If we send love to all of these people, as the Savior has asked us to do, then we neutralize Satan’s tools against us. At the same time it is extremely important for us to be aware of what is going on, so that we are not deceived by the great deceiver who is behind it all and to do all we can to stand for the “Perfect Law of Liberty,” which is defined in the Bible as the gospel of Jesus Christ and which our founding documents were designed to protect its promulgation based on “free will.” If we do nothing and let the state end up sovereign, Satan smiles. If we join the Lord in taking His word and truth – which includes the “perfect law of liberty” – wherever people will receive it, we will have peace, love, and joy in our hearts. It is Liberty versus captivity, Our Constitutional principles versus Communism, to know God versus no God, freedom versus slavery, and having the individual be sovereign versus the state being sovereign. In Trevor Loudon’s talk, he outlines some important things the average person can do politically. From my perspective, if we will pray and hearken to the voice of the Son of God, we will do our part and have joy in it – in the midst of the storms of life.
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Re: Identifying and NOT supporting latter-day Gadiantons

Postby mes5464 » Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:10 pm

I don't remember which thread it was but someone listed using a Federal law to opt-out of government programs that conflicts with one's religious convictions. I don't remember what it is called.

Could one use that to opt-out of Federal Income Tax?
What about property tax?

I am no lawyer so I am really asking these questions because I would like to know the answers.
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Re: Identifying and NOT supporting latter-day Gadiantons

Postby BlueMoon5 » Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:15 pm

InfoWarrior82 wrote:Dr Jones.... are you suuuure these scheming leaders aren't Al Qaeda? :))

Loran Blood? Bluemoon5?


I'm sure Loran Blood is one of them, and I'm sure he perceives me as one of them.

Inasmuch as we have been identified, what do you propose to do with us?
Last edited by BlueMoon5 on Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Identifying and NOT supporting latter-day Gadiantons

Postby Juliette » Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:36 pm

BlueMoon5 wrote:
InfoWarrior82 wrote:Dr Jones.... are you suuuure these scheming leaders aren't Al Qaeda? :))

Loran Blood? Bluemoon5?


I'm sure Loran Blood is one of them, and I'm sure he perceives me as one of them.

Having been thus identified, what do you propose to do with us?


I'm sure InfoWarrior would be ruthless BlueMoon! :)) ( of course it would be kool aid, not champagne!)

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Re: Identifying and NOT supporting latter-day Gadiantons

Postby DrJones » Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:56 am

To round out this thread, I'd like to copy my post something from another thread, with minor mods. I wrote:
I agree with what I take as the gist of jonesde's post:
Governments are in league with big corporations, both protecting their incomes with little or no compassion for the masses.

Hmmmmm... not a bad definition for LDG's and the whore Babylon IMO, and quite a contrast with the ideal of Joseph's Zion.

If everyone in the nation got healthy, Big Pharma would go bankrupt.
So does Big Pharma really want us all healthy?
Do YOU really want to be healthy?
And if everyone ate healthily and obesity dropped, what would happen to MacDonalds?


If every home and vehicle in the nation had its own freedom energy source (Nonpolluting ElectroWeak [NEW] energy, say), Big Oil would go bankrupt.
So does Big Oil really want a novel energy source like NEW energy?
If energy inventors suddenly decided to give their ideas away freely world-wide, what would happen?


If everyone in the country got and stayed out of DEBT, as Prophets have indeed counseled, the Big Bankers would go bankrupt.
Is that what you want?

If peace suddenly broke out, Halliburton and Blackwater (or whatever name they call themselves now) would go bankrupt.


4 Behold, verily, thus saith the Lord unto you: In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days, I have warned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation—


Wait -- is Jesus a "conspiracy theorist"? (I hope he doesn't mind my asking it that way.)
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Re: Identifying and NOT supporting latter-day Gadiantons

Postby dennis » Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:03 am

Jesus is a conspiracy exposer . I tell you this that evil might be done away , and that the time may come that Satan may have no power upon the hearts of men. In the Book of Mormon conspiracy is Fact not Theory . In modern history , Conspiracy is also Fact, when the writer tells the truth.
Bad guys are wimps The great enemy of lies is the Truth. In time of universal deceit, telling truth is a revolutionary act PASSIONATE CHRISTIAN for LOVE: Only Love can defeat the Devil NO PILLS NO Banks No Money All-natural-high CURED NOT BAND-AIDED
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Re: Identifying and NOT supporting latter-day Gadiantons

Postby singyourwayhome » Sat Aug 04, 2012 3:39 pm

It seems to me that the principles of the Gadiantons is what we have to contend with; with the way they think society should be.

Dr. Jones, I appreciate your original post with President Hinckley's keys to identifying the schemers. It's funny that you started this post; I've been developing a list, and (maybe) completed it just a few days ago.

My perspective on this is that since We The People have a direct say in who calls the shots, we'd better know how to tell true principles apart from false ones. That way we know when to stand up in our city council meetings, in our caucus meetings, in our Family Home Evenings, in our everyday conversations, to learn to live within correct principles and teach them to others. What we do financially to fight them seems pretty simple- follow the advice of the prophets concerning debt, expenditures, and saving, as you said. How we live our lives has even more impact than how we spend our money. "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" is what we read in Hosea 4:6. The Nephites' downfall was that they were "seduced...to believe in their works and partake of their spoils" (Hel. 6:38)

I recently read an article, "The Coming Civil War: the Makers vs. the Takers". It occurred to me that another word for "takers" is "robbers"!

Gadianton principles, from their point of view:
• God is irrelevant to prosperity. (“God” meaning the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob)
• (This) God doesn’t actually exist, and the scriptural version of liberty, property, and country are a farce; there are no such things as God-given rights. Rights come from the government. 3 Ne 3:2, also The Proper Role of Government by ETB
• God’s laws and The Lord’s Way are a drag. Hel. 7:4, 5 (also look up ‘The Lord’s Way’ on lds.org)
• It’s unfair to suffer consequences of God’s commandmands (which are, after all, irrelevant!), and others have a responsibility to take away those consequences. If they don’t, I’ve been wronged. Hel. 6:21-23, 30; D&C 130:20-21
• We (Gadianton participants) have been ’wronged’ ((this sounds like it’s from moral judgments and financial suffering- really just feeling the consequences of their choices)). Anything bad or difficult that happens to us is not our fault. We’re working to avenge those wrongs. 3 Ne. 3:4
• Power, glory, and prosperity (“power and gain”) are the greatest good and require a plan from us. 3 Ne. 3:3, 7, 9, Hel. 7:21, Ether 8:23 Freedom is in direct opposition to it, though freedom from God’s rules is a goal. Ether 8:25
• The way to prosperity is (not for me to work harder but) to turn over your property and belongings and become part of a group where all are equal. 3 Ne. 3:6, 7
• If you’re not with us, you are a threat to our wellbeing. If you won’t give us what you have, we are justified in lying, stealing, or destroying you to get it. 3 Ne. 3:6, 8, 10; Hel. 6:17, 7:21
• We (Gadiantons) can only be avenged properly (things will be “fair” and equal) when we control the government. 3 Ne. 3:10, Hel. 6:39, 7:5
• Intimidation, trickery (flattery and “hollow promises”- Hinckley), and threat of violence are a good way to get others to participate. This works best if no one knows what we’re planning. Ether 8:9, 14, 16,17
• We (Gads) can hurt anyone who hasn’t made the same covenants as us, Hel. 6:22
• Those who believe in and follow the Lord are to be trampled, smitten, killed, and/or ignored. Hel. 6:39
• Anything is alright if it gets you what you want: murder, stealing, lying, whoredoms (1828 definition includes lewdness, fornication, and the desertion of the worship of the true God in favor of elevating some other end), abominations (1828 def. =moral defilements), and “all manner of wickedness”. Hel. 6:21, 23
• Pride is both the root and the result of it: Me vs. you (includes class warfare according to Pres. Hinckley), what I want –or ‘our’ way- vs. God’s will. Hel. 7:26, Hel. 7:4, 5, 15, 16, 18, 26

All of this naturally leads to destruction - Hel. 7:27-29, Ether 8:21-22, D&C 130:20-21
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Re: Identifying and NOT supporting latter-day Gadiantons

Postby DrJones » Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:34 pm

Full of insights, Singyourwayhome -- thank you for your list/summary. "
"Gadianton principles, from their point of view:" - amazing how MODERN these sound, since you use the Book of Mormon to make your summary!

You wrote also:
I recently read an article, "The Coming Civil War: the Makers vs. the Takers". It occurred to me that another word for "takers" is "robbers"!


Can you provide a reference for this article? I'd like to look at it.

At a wedding reception today, a young man told me he sees the US moving towards internal (civil) war ...

Is there a way to achieve a peaceful solution, avoiding "civil war"?
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Re: Identifying and NOT supporting latter-day Gadiantons

Postby BigD » Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:12 pm

DrJones wrote:Full of insights, Singyourwayhome -- thank you for your list/summary. "
"Gadianton principles, from their point of view:" - amazing how MODERN these sound, since you use the Book of Mormon to make your summary!

You wrote also:
I recently read an article, "The Coming Civil War: the Makers vs. the Takers". It occurred to me that another word for "takers" is "robbers"!


Can you provide a reference for this article? I'd like to look at it.

At a wedding reception today, a young man told me he sees the US moving towards internal (civil) war ...

Is there a way to achieve a peaceful solution, avoiding "civil war"?


David Whitmer, as you know him as one of the three witnesses to the Book of Mormon, also had some things to say about the second "civil war". He claims that the Prophet Joseph Smith foretold of two great "civil wars" in the United States, but that the second one ("The Great Tribulation") would completely devastate and remake the entire country. He discussed a little of what he knew about this "Great Tribulation" with a reporter to the Deseret Evening News in 1878. I have actually tracked down and transcribed myself (forgive the errors as I did not go back to clean up/correct the transcription) part of the article, as Google has digitized the paper.

Also note that the "Great Tribulation" will precede the "Second Great Work", which will include the translation of the sealed plates and the conversion of large numbers of survivors.

Here is a link to the scanned iissue of the Deseret Evening News from 1878. Note that the interview starts on the Second Column from the left at the top of the second page of that issue. Unfortunately, the reporter approximated rather than actually transcribed what David Whitmer told him in the interview. BTW, Google allows you to zoom in on the scanned image.

George Q. Cannon also gave an interview the next year that you might find relevant. Here is a link to the scanned issue in the Deseret Evening News from 1879 that includes that interview. A part of this transcription follows the first interview.

PLEASE BE FOREWARNED THAT THESE INDIVIDUALS WERE RELAYING WHAT THEY HAD HEARD ALMOST 40 YEARS EARLIER FROM THE PROPHET JOSEPH SMITH. THEIR MEMORIES MIGHT NOT BE AS ACCURATE AS ONE WOULD HOPE

Below you can find my transcription of these interviews.

David Whitmer Interview in Deseret Evening News in 1878 wrote:Deseret Evening News
Truth and Liberty
Salt Lake City, Utah Territory, Friday Evening, August 16, 1878
{Page (2) of (4), Columns 2 and 3 (starting at the top)}

{COLUMN 2}
CORRESPONDENCE.
---------
Interview with David Whitmer.
---------
We publish the following, the chief portions of a letter received from Dr. Poulson containing particulars of an interview with David Whitmer. We cannot afford space for the whole of the communication but give those portions which are likely to prove interesting to our readers, without being responsible for any of the statements made therein:

OGDEN CITY, August 13, 1878
Editors Deseret News:

Several persons have inquired of me about David Whitmer, especially since the publication in the NEWS of the letter about the late John Whitmer. If the DESERET NEWS will give the space in its columns it will afford me pleasure to write what I know about him from my visit to Richmond, Mo., and also my personal conversation with him.

He is now 73 years old but is a wonderfully well-preserved man, tall and erect as a pine, well proportioned, with a military bearing, Roman nose and dark eyes full of fire and expression. His forehead is broad and large, and his head nearly bald, but well balanced.

In company with a son and grandson, Mr. Whitmer keeps a livery and feed stable at Richmond, Mo., the old grandfather is principally relieved from business, but he makes his regular trips down to the stables, and to the minute as in olden time.

David Whitmer's sister was married to Olivery Cowdery, whose remains rest in the graveyard at Richmond, and who practised law that that town from 1838 to 1849, when he died in full faith and bore testimony about his visions. On his death-bed he requested to be buried without any display or large attendance, and he wanted no gravestone to be erected over his ashes. David Whitmer said that his brother-in-law was, in many respects, a peculiar man. David's brother, Jacob Whitmer, one of the witnesses, lived and died in Richmond, and his grave is only a short distance from Cowdery's. On Jacob's grave is erected a fine marble stone. On the top of the stone appears his name and next we discover the cut of the Book of Mormon laid open, with a blooming rose resting on the divide, and the book resting on the closed up Bible. Jacob Whitmer died April 21, 1856, aged 56 years, 2 months and 26 days.

After a self introduction to David Whitmer and some general conversation, I remarked to him:

I-You are one of the three witnesses?

He-I am one of them.

I-And you saw the angel, and he showed you the plates?

He-The Book of Mormon is true, as true as any record can be. I saw the angel, and I saw the sword of Laban, and the breast-plate, and the Urim and Thummin, and the plates, and the director, and the angel stood before use, and he turned the leaves one by one.

I-Did the angel turn all the leaves before you as you looked on it?

He-No, not all, only that part of the book which was not sealed and what there was sealed appeared as solid to my view as wood.

I-How many of the plates were sealed?

He-About the half of the book was sealed. Those leaves which were not sealed, about the half of the first part of the book were numerous, and the angel turned them over before our eyes. There is yet to be given a translation about Jared's people's doing and of Nephi, and many other records and books, which all has to be done, when the time comes.

I-How large were the plates?

He-About eight inches wide and six or seven inches long, as they appeared a little wider than long, and three rings kept the plates together; one above, one in the middle and one below, so the angel could turn every leaf entirely over. The thickness was about of a common sheet of tin used by tinsmiths.

I-How did the engravings look?

He-They were characters. We copied some, and if you visit my brother John, one of the eight witnesses, who wrote for Joseph, John can show you some of the old manuscript which he borrowed from me. I must have it returned to me again, as it belongs to the Church, in connection with other records.

I-Martin Harris, who died lately, in Smithfield, Utah, gave a testimony in Salt Lake City Tabernacle that he saw the plates by faith and power of God.

He-Martin Harris is correct. He was not by us at all when we first saw the angle. First when we told him what we had seen, and were the second time in prayer all together, and when the angel appeared for a second time, we saw Martin Harris by us, and he saw, and we saw it, and our testimony, which we give to the world, is true exactly as you read it, we saw by the gift and power of God. As we were praying the angel stood before us in his glory, and all those things were before us, as they were laid before us on a table, and we heard the testimony about the plates, and we were commanded to bear that testimony to the world, and out testimony is true. And when the angel had finished his words, and shown us the plates, one by one which were to be translated, then the vision was closed at once, and exactly as it came even so did the sight disappear.

I-But those things which you saw, were material things, how could they come and vanish away again?

He-It is the power of God. He does those things, and his angels know how to do it. It was wonderful to us, but it was by the power of God. He had appointed his angels to be the guardians of the plates and the other things, and the angel knew how it was done.

I-Where are the plates now?

He-In a cave, where the angel has hidden them up till the time arrives when the plates, which are sealed, shall be translated. God will yet raise up a mighty one, who shall do his work till it is finished and Jesus comes again.

I-Where is that cave?

He-In the State of New York.

I-In the Hill of Comorah?

He-No, but not far away from that place. I saw the place where the plates were found, and a great many did so, and it awakened an excitement at the time, because the worst enemies of "Mormonism" stirred up the confusion by telling about the plates which Joseph found, and the "gold bible" which
{Top of Column 3} he was in possession of, so he was in constant danger of being robbed and killed.

I-How did the place look?

He-It was a stone box, and the stones looked to me as if they were cemented together. That was on the side of the hill, and a little down from the top.

I-How did you know Joseph to be at that time"

He-As a very humble and meek man, and a very simple minded indeed. He did the will of the Lord, and an arduous task it was to translate the Book of Mormon.

I-Did Joseph use the Urim and Thummim when he translated?

He-The Urim and Thummim were two white stones, each of them cased in as spectacles are, in a kind of silver casing, but the bow between the stones was more heavy, and longer apart between the stones, than we usually find it in spectacles. Martin Harris, Oliver Cowdery, Emma and my brother John each at different times wrote for Joseph as he translated.

I-When will the temple be built in Independence?

He-Right after the great tribulation is over.

I-What do you mean by that?

He-A civil war more bloody and cruel than the rebellion. It will be a smashing up of this nation, about which time the second great work has to be done, a work like Joseph did, and the translation of the sealed plates, and peace all over.

I-Will you live and see those things?

He-It was said to us, that the second great work should commence when nearly all the witnesses to the first plates had passed away, so I may live and see these things take place.

I-You are in good health?

He-I am very well indeed for my age. I am not troubled with anything except a little rheumatism or what it is in my hips. I was thrown from a buggy, and feel ever since some weakness over my hips.

This conversation was mostly written down word for word half an hour after the interview with David Whitmer, Esq., who will recognize it as his words, and I send it that the public may form a better idea about this truly remarkable man.

Your truly, P. Wilhelm Poulson, M.D.





George Q. Cannon also relayed a similar thought about the "Great Tribulation".

George Q. Cannon Interview in Deseret Evening News in 1879 wrote:Deseret Evening News
Truth and Liberty
Salt Lake City, Utah Territory, Saturday Evening, May 24, 1879
{Page (2) of (4), Columns 1 and 2 (starting at the top)}

There appears to be widespread anticipation of a crisis in human affairs. ...

...

There is approaching a time of trouble such as was never known on the earth. "The great tribulation" is foretold in ancient and modern revelation. Immediately after those terrible days "the sign of the Son of Man" will appear in the heavens, and this is to be followed by his advent in person and the grand consummation foreseen by all the holy prophets. But the day and hour thereof no man knoweth, and while events are foreshadowed by the spirit of truth and all that the Lord has revealed will surely come to pass, dates are seldom given, and when ventured by those who have really received the heavenly light, generally lead to error and regret. What God reveals may be relied on. But what man adds to those divine communications is untrustworthy and to be viewed with caution if not with distrust and indifference.

To be prepared for all this is to come let the Saints be faithful, prayerful, true, honest, temperate, prudent, and watchful, keeping the words of wisdom given from on high, and obeying the commandments, and they will be preserved when the destroyer shall go forth to lay the earth waste, and with their children will stand on Mount Zion as Saviors and saved, when the Lord shall shake mightily the kingdoms of this world and come to take possession of his own.
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Re: Identifying and NOT supporting latter-day Gadiantons

Postby singyourwayhome » Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:28 pm

dimiwill, that was interesting to read. Thanks.

DrJones wrote:Full of insights, Singyourwayhome -- thank you for your list/summary. "
"Gadianton principles, from their point of view:" - amazing how MODERN these sound, since you use the Book of Mormon to make your summary!
You wrote also:
I recently read an article, "The Coming Civil War: the Makers vs. the Takers". It occurred to me that another word for "takers" is "robbers"!


Can you provide a reference for this article? I'd like to look at it.

At a wedding reception today, a young man told me he sees the US moving towards internal (civil) war ...
Is there a way to achieve a peaceful solution, avoiding "civil war"?


Thank you, Dr. Jones.

Isn't it just as President Hinckley said? "Current as the morning newspaper"!

The article mentioned was written by Arthur Herman, and can be found at http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/07/ ... civil-war/. What's even more interesting is what happened when the MSM picked up on the article; they twisted it completely around. See one treatment of it athttp://www.democraticunderground.com/101741508 The latter sounds typically Gadianton.

It's the Gadiantons who will start that civil war, not us. The only way I can see to avoid that 'civil war' is by destroying their power. Helaman 6:37 (http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/hel/6?lang=eng) gives us the key: learning, teaching, sharing, testifying of what the right way- the only Way- is. It's that same scripture again, Hosea 4:6, "my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge". We have to be convinced that God, not the government, is our savior, repent, and turn to Him. So many people fail to see principles and consequences. Not that I can blame them, there are lots of principles I still need to learn.
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Re: Identifying and NOT supporting latter-day Gadiantons

Postby GeeR » Sun Aug 05, 2012 1:22 am

Is this what J. Reuben Clark was refering to when he said:


“We are not given the step-by-step backsliding of this Jareditic civilization till it reached the social and governmental chaos the record sets out, but those steps seem wholly clear from the results. Put into modern terms, we can understand them.

First there was a forsaking of the righteous life, and the working of wickedness; then must have come the extortion and oppression of the poor by the rich; then retaliation and reprisal by the poor against the rich; then would come a cry to share the wealth which should belong to all; then the easy belief that society owed every man a living whether he worked or not; then the keeping of a great body of idlers; then when community revenues failed to do this, as they always have failed and always will fail, a self-helping by one to the goods of his neighbor; and finally when the neighbor resisted, as resist he must or starve with his family, then death to the neighbor and all that belonged to him. This was the decreed “fullness of iniquity.”

(Prophets, Principles and National Survival, Jerreld L. Newquist, p. 113; J. Reuben Clark, Jr., 1940, E_43:396.)
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Re: Identifying and NOT supporting latter-day Gadiantons

Postby DrJones » Sun Aug 05, 2012 10:43 am

singyourwayhome wrote:...
It's the Gadiantons who will start that civil war, not us. The only way I can see to avoid that 'civil war' is by destroying their power. Helaman 6:37 (http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/hel/6?lang=eng) gives us the key: learning, teaching, sharing, testifying of what the right way- the only Way- is. It's that same scripture again, Hosea 4:6, "my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge". We have to be convinced that God, not the government, is our savior, repent, and turn to Him. So many people fail to see principles and consequences. Not that I can blame them, there are lots of principles I still need to learn.


Well said; and thanks for the quote from President J. Reuben Clark, Geer.

This weekend, Dr Mercola departs somewhat from his health teachings to concerns regarding the spying going on -- note that he mentions the new NSA facility in Utah. I wonder how many LDS support this program in our midst?

By Dr. Mercola

Big Brother is watching. No kidding. And the warning is coming from none other than Google, which says government spies may be spying on you. Some believe the Google announcement may be related to the recent discovery of the data-mining virus named "Flame." In a June 3 New York Times article, Andrew Kramer and Nicole Perlroth write1:

"When Eugene Kaspersky, the founder of Europe's largest antivirus company, discovered the Flame virus that is afflicting computers in Iran and the Middle East, he recognized it as a technologically sophisticated virus that only a government could create.

He also recognized that the virus, which he compares to the Stuxnet virus built by programmers employed by the United States and Israel, adds weight to his warnings of the grave dangers posed by governments that manufacture and release viruses on the internet.

"Cyberweapons are the most dangerous innovation of this century," he told a gathering of technology company executives... While the United States and Israel are using the weapons to slow the nuclear bomb-making abilities of Iran, they could also be used to disrupt power grids and financial systems or even wreak havoc with military defenses."

Mr. Kaspersky claims he was called in to investigate the new virus on behalf of the International Telecommunication Union, an agency of the United Nations. The virus was allegedly erasing files on computers belonging to the Iranian oil ministry.

What makes the Flame virus a major potential concern for common citizens of the world is the fact that it's the first virus found with the ability to spread wirelessly by attaching itself to Bluetooth-enabled devices.

Once there, it can not only trace and steal information stored on those devices; according to Kramer and Perlroth the program also contains a "microbe" command that can activate any microphone within the device, record whatever is going on at the time—presumably whether you're actually using the device or not—and transmit audio files back to the attacker. This, clearly, has huge privacy implications were it to be deployed against civilian populations.

New Revelations about the Links Between Flame and Stuxnet

While cybersecurity experts initially claimed there were no links between the earlier Stuxnet worm and the Flame virus, a recent article on The Verge now reports that the two are undoubtedly related2. Joshua Kopstein writes:

"[I]n examining an earlier version of Stuxnet, the lab's researchers now find that they were wrong: a previously overlooked module within the virus is now providing the "missing link" between the two pieces of malware. The module in question... matches very closely with a module used by an early version Flame. "It was actually so similar, that it made our automatic system classify it as Stuxnet," wrote Alexander Gostev... indicating that the module was likely the seed of both viruses. "We think it's actually possible to talk about a 'Flame' platform, and that this particular module was created based on its source code."

The new evidence suggests that Stuxnet and Flame are two sides of the same coin, with the former built for sabotage and the latter for surveillance. But researchers also say that the Flame platform pre-dated Stuxnet and its sister, Duqu, and was likely built in the Summer of 2008."

InformationWeek Security recently offered the following advice3:"... Microsoft has been working quickly to patch the certificate bug exploited by Flame. Notably, Microsoft released an update Friday [June 8] for Windows Server Update Services (WSUS) 3.0 Service Pack 2 (SP2), which according to the release notes "strengthens the WSUS communication channels ... [by] trusting only files that are issued by the Microsoft Update certification authority."

Microsoft is also set to issue an update Tuesday--as part of its monthly Patch Tuesday--that will further update all supported versions of Windows to block Flame. Security experts are recommending that all users install the update as soon as possible, since attackers will likely attempt to use the certificate vulnerability before it becomes widely patched. "Apply the certificate patch released a week ago today if you haven't done so already," said SANS Institute chief research officer Johannes B. Ullrich in a blog post. "This way, no patch signed by the bad certificate should be accepted tomorrow. Patch Tuesday is one of the best dates to launch such an attack, as you do expect patches anyway."

When installing the update, however, do so preferably only if using a trusted environment. "Avoid patches while 'on the road.' Apply them in your home [or] work network whenever possible," said Ullrich. "This doesn't eliminate the chance of a 'man in the middle' (MitM) attack, but it reduces the likelihood."

For users who must update while on the road, perhaps because they travel frequently, always use a VPN connection back to the corporate network, said Ullrich, since hotel networks can be malware and attack hotbeds. "Hotel networks and public hotspots frequently use badly configured HTTP proxies that can be compromised and many users expect bad SSL certificates--because of ongoing MitM attacks," he said."

Spy Central: Utah

In related news, Wired Magazine recently reported that the US government is building a massive spy center, right in the heart of Mormon country, in Bluffdale, Utah4
--so massive, in fact, that once finished, the facility will be five times larger than the US Capitol.

According to Wired Magazine:

"Under construction by contractors with top-secret clearances, the blandly named Utah Data Center is being built for the National Security Agency. A project of immense secrecy, it is the final piece in a complex puzzle assembled over the past decade. Its purpose: to intercept, decipher, analyze, and store vast swaths of the world's communications as they zap down from satellites and zip through the underground and undersea cables of international, foreign, and domestic networks. The heavily fortified $2 billion center should be up and running in September 2013.

Flowing through its servers and routers and stored in near-bottomless databases will be all forms of communication, including the complete contents of private emails, cell phone calls, and Google searches, as well as all sorts of personal data trails—parking receipts, travel itineraries, bookstore purchases, and other digital "pocket litter." It is, in some measure, the realization of the "total information awareness" program created during the first term of the Bush administration—an effort that was killed by Congress in 2003 after it caused an outcry over its potential for invading Americans' privacy.

But "this is more than just a data center," says one senior intelligence official who until recently was involved with the program. The mammoth Bluffdale center will have another important and far more secret role that until now has gone unrevealed. It is also critical, he says, for breaking codes.

And code-breaking is crucial, because much of the data that the center will handle—financial information, stock transactions, business deals, foreign military and diplomatic secrets, legal documents, confidential personal communications—will be heavily encrypted. According to another top official also involved with the program, the NSA made an enormous breakthrough several years ago in its ability to cryptanalyze, or break, unfathomably complex encryption systems employed by not only governments around the world but also many average computer users in the US.

The upshot, according to this official: "Everybody's a target; everybody with communication is a target."[Emphasis mine]

That about says it all. And for those of you still under the mistaken belief that the US government does not have the authority to spy on its citizens, consider the following:

"... [The NSA] has undergone the largest building boom in its history, including installing secret electronic monitoring rooms in major US telecom facilities. Controlled by the NSA, these highly secured spaces are where the agency taps into the US communications networks, a practice that came to light during the Bush years but was never acknowledged by the agency. The broad outlines of the so-called warrantless-wiretapping program have long been exposed...

In the wake of the program's exposure, Congress passed the FISA Amendments Act of 2008, which largely made the practices legal. Telecoms that had agreed to participate in the illegal activity were granted immunity from prosecution and lawsuits. What wasn't revealed until now, however, was the enormity of this ongoing domestic spying program.

For the first time, a former NSA official has gone on the record to describe the program, codenamed Stellar Wind, in detail...

As chief and one of the two cofounders of the agency's Signals Intelligence Automation Research Center, [William] Binney and his team designed much of the infrastructure that's still likely used to intercept international and foreign communications. He explains that the agency could have installed its tapping gear at the nation's cable landing stations—the more than two dozen sites on the periphery of the US where fiber-optic cables come ashore.

If it had taken that route, the NSA would have been able to limit its eavesdropping to just international communications, which at the time was all that was allowed under US law.

Instead it chose to put the wiretapping rooms at key junction points throughout the country... thus gaining access to not just international communications but also to most of the domestic traffic flowing through the US. The network of intercept stations goes far beyond the single room in an AT&T building in San Francisco exposed by a whistle-blower in 2006. "I think there's 10 to 20 of them," Binney says... The eavesdropping on Americans doesn't stop at the telecom switches. To capture satellite communications in and out of the US, the agency also monitors AT&T's powerful earth stations...

... Binney suggested a system for monitoring people's communications according to how closely they are connected to an initial target. The further away from the target—say you're just an acquaintance of a friend of the target—the less the surveillance. But the agency rejected the idea, and, given the massive new storage facility in Utah, Binney suspects that it now simply collects everything..."

To learn more, I highly recommend reading the featured Wired article5 in its entirety. It's a fascinating read, but it will not likely make you sleep better at night. The full article is available on their website and is free to view.

Google Also in the Privacy News

Beginning the first week of June, Google will warn you every time it picks up activity on your computer account that looks suspiciously like someone trying to monitor your computer activities. Google won't say how it figured out that state-sponsored attackers may be attempting to compromise your account or computer. But it's promised to let you know if it thinks Big Brother is tuned in to what you're doing.

As recently reported on the New York Times' blog6, the warning will pop up at the top of your Gmail inbox, Google home page, or Chrome browser, stating:

"Warning: We believe state-sponsored attackers may be attempting to compromise your account or computer."

According to a Google blog post by Eric Grosse, VP of Security Engineering at Google7:

"If you see this warning it does not necessarily mean that your account has been hijacked. It just means that we believe you may be a target, of phishing or malware for example, and that you should take immediate steps to secure your account.

Here are some things you should do immediately: create a unique password that has a good mix of capital and lowercase letters, as well punctuation marks and numbers; enable 2-step verification as additional security; and update your browser, operating system, plugins, and document editors.

Attackers often send links to fake sign-in pages to try to steal your password, so be careful about where you sign in to Google and look for https://accounts.google.com/ in your browser bar. These warnings are not being shown because Google's internal systems have been compromised or because of a particular attack."

The Next Big War Zone = the Internet

Unless you've been living under a rock this past year, you've surely heard about the repeated attempts to restrict your online freedom and grant government near limitless control over the internet and its content.

It began in January with the introduction of two proposed laws in US Congress: the Stop Online Piracy Act (SOPA), and the Protect IP Act (PIPA). While "sold" as laws to address online copyright infringement, most of which allegedly arise from outside the US, both laws contained measures capable of severely restricting online freedom of speech and harm web sites and online communities of all kinds, including this one. After tens of millions of people rose up in various protests, both online and by hitting the pavement, both bills were "indefinitely postponed."

Many have warned, however, that the bills are not "dead" and are likely to return.

It didn't take long for the next round. In April, the Cyber Intelligence Sharing and Protection Act (CISPA) was brought forth, and quickly became described by opponents as an even greater threat to internet freedom than SOPA and PIPA. I won't go into any detailed discussion on these bills here, but simply want to bring your attention to the fact that bills such as these three, while dressed up as laws that will protect you and save you money, are poorly guised attempts to gut privacy laws and open the door for a totalitarian takeover of the internet and its content.

Campaign for Liberty8 is continuing its fight to stop another government intrusion, warning that this coming December, the United Nations will also be meeting to compile even more recommendations for international internet regulations.

While it may seem hopeless at times, I urge you to take an active role anytime the opportunity presents itself to take a stand. I personally believe internet freedom and health freedom go hand in hand these days, as a majority of people get a majority of their health information from freely available web sites such as mine.

Right now, you can sign the Campaign for Liberty Protect Internet Freedom Mandate.

If Squelching In formation Freedom Doesn 't Work, What's Next?

The draconian advancements in surveillance do not end with the erection of a massive spy central and ever-increasing attacks on internet freedom. We also have some 63 drone launch sites within the US9, and the US military has admitted it now has drone technology in the form of tiny mechanical insects, equipped with cameras, microphones, and DNA sampling capabilities10.

Besides that, there's an ever-expanding arsenal of so-called "active denial weapons"—directed energy weapons that can scatter or incapacitate those in its path, by a variety of means11. Such weapons are already being used domestically by various law enforcement agencies for crowd control. Then there are more sinister signs of readiness for domestic combat. In April, news reports began circulating questioning the Department of Homeland Security's rationale for purchasing 450 million rounds of hollow point bullets12

A report by RT News reads:

"The department has yet to discuss why they are ordering such a massive bevy of bullets for an agency that has limited need domestically for doing harm, but they say they expect to continue receiving shipments from the manufacturer for the next five years, during which they plan to blow through enough ammunition to execute more people than there are in the entire United States.

... the choice — and quantity — of its hollow point order raises a lot of questions about future plans for the DHS... On their website, the contractor claims that the ammunition is specifically designed so that it can pass through a variety of obstructions and offers "optimum penetration for terminal performance." Or, in other words, this is the kind of bullet designed to stop any object dead in its tracks and, if emptied into the hands of the DHS a few hundred million times, just might do as much.

... As the DHS gains more and more ground in fighting terrorism domestically, the US at the same time has turned the tables to make its definition of terrorist way less narrow. With any American blogger or free thinking on the fringe of what the government can go after under H.R. 347, or the National Defense Authorization Act that allows for the indefinite detention of US citizens without charge, the DHS could just be blasting through what's left of its budget to make sure that its roster of agents across the country can get in their target practice over the next few years."

Without Online Freedom, You Cannot Exercise Health Freedom

Some of you may at this point wonder why I report on an issue such as this, so let me make this point clear. Access to health information could easily be deemed a "threat" to national welfare—especially when web sites such as this one publish information that contradicts the official government stance. Examples such as advising women against national mammography screening standards, or raising concerns about vaccine safety, or questioning conventional cancer treatments could all be considered a threat to an extremely profitable status quo.

In such a scenario, they could simply shut Mercola.com, and others like us, down; leaving you with no truth-telling, corruption-exposing, alternative voices other than the officially sponsored viewpoint. And it should be quite clear by now that the government-sanctioned stance on most issues relating to health and diet are primarily dictated by powerful lobbying groups furthering financially-driven industry agendas that have absolutely nothing to do with optimizing health and longevity.

Don't Be Fooled—Internet Security Bills are Likely Nothing of the Sort

Interestingly enough, CISPA is promoted primarily as a cyber security bill, which brings us full circle back to where this article started. Recall, the Flame virus has surveillance capabilities that far surpass previous viruses and worms that may collect or destroy data. In fact, its capability to transfer to Bluetooth-enabled gadgets and secretly activate microphones renders it perfect for spying on anyone and everyone, anywhere, at any time... which is exactly the plan, if you believe the information detailed in the featured Wired Magazine article above.

It's interesting to note the rationale used when trying sell us this bill. According to an April 26 report in the International Business Times13:

"Co-sponsor Rep. Dutch Ruppersberger, D-Md., says CISPA provides essential tools for repelling online security threats: "Without important, immediate changes to American cyber security policy, I believe our country will continue to be at risk for a catastrophic attack on our nation's vital networks, networks that power our homes, provide our clean water or maintain the other critical services we use every day."

Sounds like he was talking about an eventuality just like the Flame virus, or the older Stuxnet worm, for that matter—both of which, incidentally, appear to have targeted Iranian oil- and nuclear facilities, and neither of which has been officially traced back to any country or agency, despite our already overwhelming security apparatus—just over a month before Flame was discovered by a Russian antivirus company which, by the way, currently employs the virus hunter who discovered Stuxnet in 2010.

I'll leave the meaning of such coincidences for you to ponder. But suffice it to say, it does not bode well if a law like CISPA is enacted that allows companies and governments to share information collected online, especially when combined with a massive data-mining virus that can skip around from one wireless piece of technology to another, from computers to cell phones to iPads, gathering data on every single social network contact every single person has, and audio files on every single conversation any one might have at any point in time. Especially now that we will shortly have the facility to store and "process" all that data.

In closing, I will simply urge you to take efforts at curbing online freedom and extending the government's reach seriously, and whenever such efforts are launched, take action to help preserve your right to health freedom, which is closely tied to the right to online freedom of speech.

For right now, you can take a stand by signing the Campaign for Liberty Protect Internet Freedom Mandate.


IMO the hand of the Gadiantons is clearly seen in
1. bank bailouts; and efforts to get people and companies and countries deep into debt; and
2. Big Pharma in league with the FDA, obamacare, etc.
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Re: Identifying and NOT supporting latter-day Gadiantons

Postby mes5464 » Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:08 pm

Based on this article alone, we have waited too long to act.

Like I said in my other post today. We have to act now! The time to save the Constitution is now!

DrJones wrote:
singyourwayhome wrote:...
It's the Gadiantons who will start that civil war, not us. The only way I can see to avoid that 'civil war' is by destroying their power. Helaman 6:37 (http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/hel/6?lang=eng) gives us the key: learning, teaching, sharing, testifying of what the right way- the only Way- is. It's that same scripture again, Hosea 4:6, "my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge". We have to be convinced that God, not the government, is our savior, repent, and turn to Him. So many people fail to see principles and consequences. Not that I can blame them, there are lots of principles I still need to learn.


Well said; and thanks for the quote from President J. Reuben Clark, Geer.

This weekend, Dr Mercola departs somewhat from his health teachings to concerns regarding the spying going on -- note that he mentions the new NSA facility in Utah. I wonder how many LDS support this program in our midst?

By Dr. Mercola

Big Brother is watching. No kidding. And the warning is coming from none other than Google, which says government spies may be spying on you. Some believe the Google announcement may be related to the recent discovery of the data-mining virus named "Flame." In a June 3 New York Times article, Andrew Kramer and Nicole Perlroth write1:

"When Eugene Kaspersky, the founder of Europe's largest antivirus company, discovered the Flame virus that is afflicting computers in Iran and the Middle East, he recognized it as a technologically sophisticated virus that only a government could create.

He also recognized that the virus, which he compares to the Stuxnet virus built by programmers employed by the United States and Israel, adds weight to his warnings of the grave dangers posed by governments that manufacture and release viruses on the internet.

"Cyberweapons are the most dangerous innovation of this century," he told a gathering of technology company executives... While the United States and Israel are using the weapons to slow the nuclear bomb-making abilities of Iran, they could also be used to disrupt power grids and financial systems or even wreak havoc with military defenses."

Mr. Kaspersky claims he was called in to investigate the new virus on behalf of the International Telecommunication Union, an agency of the United Nations. The virus was allegedly erasing files on computers belonging to the Iranian oil ministry.

What makes the Flame virus a major potential concern for common citizens of the world is the fact that it's the first virus found with the ability to spread wirelessly by attaching itself to Bluetooth-enabled devices.

Once there, it can not only trace and steal information stored on those devices; according to Kramer and Perlroth the program also contains a "microbe" command that can activate any microphone within the device, record whatever is going on at the time—presumably whether you're actually using the device or not—and transmit audio files back to the attacker. This, clearly, has huge privacy implications were it to be deployed against civilian populations.

New Revelations about the Links Between Flame and Stuxnet

While cybersecurity experts initially claimed there were no links between the earlier Stuxnet worm and the Flame virus, a recent article on The Verge now reports that the two are undoubtedly related2. Joshua Kopstein writes:

"[I]n examining an earlier version of Stuxnet, the lab's researchers now find that they were wrong: a previously overlooked module within the virus is now providing the "missing link" between the two pieces of malware. The module in question... matches very closely with a module used by an early version Flame. "It was actually so similar, that it made our automatic system classify it as Stuxnet," wrote Alexander Gostev... indicating that the module was likely the seed of both viruses. "We think it's actually possible to talk about a 'Flame' platform, and that this particular module was created based on its source code."

The new evidence suggests that Stuxnet and Flame are two sides of the same coin, with the former built for sabotage and the latter for surveillance. But researchers also say that the Flame platform pre-dated Stuxnet and its sister, Duqu, and was likely built in the Summer of 2008."

InformationWeek Security recently offered the following advice3:"... Microsoft has been working quickly to patch the certificate bug exploited by Flame. Notably, Microsoft released an update Friday [June 8] for Windows Server Update Services (WSUS) 3.0 Service Pack 2 (SP2), which according to the release notes "strengthens the WSUS communication channels ... [by] trusting only files that are issued by the Microsoft Update certification authority."

Microsoft is also set to issue an update Tuesday--as part of its monthly Patch Tuesday--that will further update all supported versions of Windows to block Flame. Security experts are recommending that all users install the update as soon as possible, since attackers will likely attempt to use the certificate vulnerability before it becomes widely patched. "Apply the certificate patch released a week ago today if you haven't done so already," said SANS Institute chief research officer Johannes B. Ullrich in a blog post. "This way, no patch signed by the bad certificate should be accepted tomorrow. Patch Tuesday is one of the best dates to launch such an attack, as you do expect patches anyway."

When installing the update, however, do so preferably only if using a trusted environment. "Avoid patches while 'on the road.' Apply them in your home [or] work network whenever possible," said Ullrich. "This doesn't eliminate the chance of a 'man in the middle' (MitM) attack, but it reduces the likelihood."

For users who must update while on the road, perhaps because they travel frequently, always use a VPN connection back to the corporate network, said Ullrich, since hotel networks can be malware and attack hotbeds. "Hotel networks and public hotspots frequently use badly configured HTTP proxies that can be compromised and many users expect bad SSL certificates--because of ongoing MitM attacks," he said."

Spy Central: Utah

In related news, Wired Magazine recently reported that the US government is building a massive spy center, right in the heart of Mormon country, in Bluffdale, Utah4
--so massive, in fact, that once finished, the facility will be five times larger than the US Capitol.

According to Wired Magazine:

"Under construction by contractors with top-secret clearances, the blandly named Utah Data Center is being built for the National Security Agency. A project of immense secrecy, it is the final piece in a complex puzzle assembled over the past decade. Its purpose: to intercept, decipher, analyze, and store vast swaths of the world's communications as they zap down from satellites and zip through the underground and undersea cables of international, foreign, and domestic networks. The heavily fortified $2 billion center should be up and running in September 2013.

Flowing through its servers and routers and stored in near-bottomless databases will be all forms of communication, including the complete contents of private emails, cell phone calls, and Google searches, as well as all sorts of personal data trails—parking receipts, travel itineraries, bookstore purchases, and other digital "pocket litter." It is, in some measure, the realization of the "total information awareness" program created during the first term of the Bush administration—an effort that was killed by Congress in 2003 after it caused an outcry over its potential for invading Americans' privacy.

But "this is more than just a data center," says one senior intelligence official who until recently was involved with the program. The mammoth Bluffdale center will have another important and far more secret role that until now has gone unrevealed. It is also critical, he says, for breaking codes.

And code-breaking is crucial, because much of the data that the center will handle—financial information, stock transactions, business deals, foreign military and diplomatic secrets, legal documents, confidential personal communications—will be heavily encrypted. According to another top official also involved with the program, the NSA made an enormous breakthrough several years ago in its ability to cryptanalyze, or break, unfathomably complex encryption systems employed by not only governments around the world but also many average computer users in the US.

The upshot, according to this official: "Everybody's a target; everybody with communication is a target."[Emphasis mine]

That about says it all. And for those of you still under the mistaken belief that the US government does not have the authority to spy on its citizens, consider the following:

"... [The NSA] has undergone the largest building boom in its history, including installing secret electronic monitoring rooms in major US telecom facilities. Controlled by the NSA, these highly secured spaces are where the agency taps into the US communications networks, a practice that came to light during the Bush years but was never acknowledged by the agency. The broad outlines of the so-called warrantless-wiretapping program have long been exposed...

In the wake of the program's exposure, Congress passed the FISA Amendments Act of 2008, which largely made the practices legal. Telecoms that had agreed to participate in the illegal activity were granted immunity from prosecution and lawsuits. What wasn't revealed until now, however, was the enormity of this ongoing domestic spying program.

For the first time, a former NSA official has gone on the record to describe the program, codenamed Stellar Wind, in detail...

As chief and one of the two cofounders of the agency's Signals Intelligence Automation Research Center, [William] Binney and his team designed much of the infrastructure that's still likely used to intercept international and foreign communications. He explains that the agency could have installed its tapping gear at the nation's cable landing stations—the more than two dozen sites on the periphery of the US where fiber-optic cables come ashore.

If it had taken that route, the NSA would have been able to limit its eavesdropping to just international communications, which at the time was all that was allowed under US law.

Instead it chose to put the wiretapping rooms at key junction points throughout the country... thus gaining access to not just international communications but also to most of the domestic traffic flowing through the US. The network of intercept stations goes far beyond the single room in an AT&T building in San Francisco exposed by a whistle-blower in 2006. "I think there's 10 to 20 of them," Binney says... The eavesdropping on Americans doesn't stop at the telecom switches. To capture satellite communications in and out of the US, the agency also monitors AT&T's powerful earth stations...

... Binney suggested a system for monitoring people's communications according to how closely they are connected to an initial target. The further away from the target—say you're just an acquaintance of a friend of the target—the less the surveillance. But the agency rejected the idea, and, given the massive new storage facility in Utah, Binney suspects that it now simply collects everything..."

To learn more, I highly recommend reading the featured Wired article5 in its entirety. It's a fascinating read, but it will not likely make you sleep better at night. The full article is available on their website and is free to view.

Google Also in the Privacy News

Beginning the first week of June, Google will warn you every time it picks up activity on your computer account that looks suspiciously like someone trying to monitor your computer activities. Google won't say how it figured out that state-sponsored attackers may be attempting to compromise your account or computer. But it's promised to let you know if it thinks Big Brother is tuned in to what you're doing.

As recently reported on the New York Times' blog6, the warning will pop up at the top of your Gmail inbox, Google home page, or Chrome browser, stating:

"Warning: We believe state-sponsored attackers may be attempting to compromise your account or computer."

According to a Google blog post by Eric Grosse, VP of Security Engineering at Google7:

"If you see this warning it does not necessarily mean that your account has been hijacked. It just means that we believe you may be a target, of phishing or malware for example, and that you should take immediate steps to secure your account.

Here are some things you should do immediately: create a unique password that has a good mix of capital and lowercase letters, as well punctuation marks and numbers; enable 2-step verification as additional security; and update your browser, operating system, plugins, and document editors.

Attackers often send links to fake sign-in pages to try to steal your password, so be careful about where you sign in to Google and look for https://accounts.google.com/ in your browser bar. These warnings are not being shown because Google's internal systems have been compromised or because of a particular attack."

The Next Big War Zone = the Internet

Unless you've been living under a rock this past year, you've surely heard about the repeated attempts to restrict your online freedom and grant government near limitless control over the internet and its content.

It began in January with the introduction of two proposed laws in US Congress: the Stop Online Piracy Act (SOPA), and the Protect IP Act (PIPA). While "sold" as laws to address online copyright infringement, most of which allegedly arise from outside the US, both laws contained measures capable of severely restricting online freedom of speech and harm web sites and online communities of all kinds, including this one. After tens of millions of people rose up in various protests, both online and by hitting the pavement, both bills were "indefinitely postponed."

Many have warned, however, that the bills are not "dead" and are likely to return.

It didn't take long for the next round. In April, the Cyber Intelligence Sharing and Protection Act (CISPA) was brought forth, and quickly became described by opponents as an even greater threat to internet freedom than SOPA and PIPA. I won't go into any detailed discussion on these bills here, but simply want to bring your attention to the fact that bills such as these three, while dressed up as laws that will protect you and save you money, are poorly guised attempts to gut privacy laws and open the door for a totalitarian takeover of the internet and its content.

Campaign for Liberty8 is continuing its fight to stop another government intrusion, warning that this coming December, the United Nations will also be meeting to compile even more recommendations for international internet regulations.

While it may seem hopeless at times, I urge you to take an active role anytime the opportunity presents itself to take a stand. I personally believe internet freedom and health freedom go hand in hand these days, as a majority of people get a majority of their health information from freely available web sites such as mine.

Right now, you can sign the Campaign for Liberty Protect Internet Freedom Mandate.

If Squelching In formation Freedom Doesn 't Work, What's Next?

The draconian advancements in surveillance do not end with the erection of a massive spy central and ever-increasing attacks on internet freedom. We also have some 63 drone launch sites within the US9, and the US military has admitted it now has drone technology in the form of tiny mechanical insects, equipped with cameras, microphones, and DNA sampling capabilities10.

Besides that, there's an ever-expanding arsenal of so-called "active denial weapons"—directed energy weapons that can scatter or incapacitate those in its path, by a variety of means11. Such weapons are already being used domestically by various law enforcement agencies for crowd control. Then there are more sinister signs of readiness for domestic combat. In April, news reports began circulating questioning the Department of Homeland Security's rationale for purchasing 450 million rounds of hollow point bullets12

A report by RT News reads:

"The department has yet to discuss why they are ordering such a massive bevy of bullets for an agency that has limited need domestically for doing harm, but they say they expect to continue receiving shipments from the manufacturer for the next five years, during which they plan to blow through enough ammunition to execute more people than there are in the entire United States.

... the choice — and quantity — of its hollow point order raises a lot of questions about future plans for the DHS... On their website, the contractor claims that the ammunition is specifically designed so that it can pass through a variety of obstructions and offers "optimum penetration for terminal performance." Or, in other words, this is the kind of bullet designed to stop any object dead in its tracks and, if emptied into the hands of the DHS a few hundred million times, just might do as much.

... As the DHS gains more and more ground in fighting terrorism domestically, the US at the same time has turned the tables to make its definition of terrorist way less narrow. With any American blogger or free thinking on the fringe of what the government can go after under H.R. 347, or the National Defense Authorization Act that allows for the indefinite detention of US citizens without charge, the DHS could just be blasting through what's left of its budget to make sure that its roster of agents across the country can get in their target practice over the next few years."

Without Online Freedom, You Cannot Exercise Health Freedom

Some of you may at this point wonder why I report on an issue such as this, so let me make this point clear. Access to health information could easily be deemed a "threat" to national welfare—especially when web sites such as this one publish information that contradicts the official government stance. Examples such as advising women against national mammography screening standards, or raising concerns about vaccine safety, or questioning conventional cancer treatments could all be considered a threat to an extremely profitable status quo.

In such a scenario, they could simply shut Mercola.com, and others like us, down; leaving you with no truth-telling, corruption-exposing, alternative voices other than the officially sponsored viewpoint. And it should be quite clear by now that the government-sanctioned stance on most issues relating to health and diet are primarily dictated by powerful lobbying groups furthering financially-driven industry agendas that have absolutely nothing to do with optimizing health and longevity.

Don't Be Fooled—Internet Security Bills are Likely Nothing of the Sort

Interestingly enough, CISPA is promoted primarily as a cyber security bill, which brings us full circle back to where this article started. Recall, the Flame virus has surveillance capabilities that far surpass previous viruses and worms that may collect or destroy data. In fact, its capability to transfer to Bluetooth-enabled gadgets and secretly activate microphones renders it perfect for spying on anyone and everyone, anywhere, at any time... which is exactly the plan, if you believe the information detailed in the featured Wired Magazine article above.

It's interesting to note the rationale used when trying sell us this bill. According to an April 26 report in the International Business Times13:

"Co-sponsor Rep. Dutch Ruppersberger, D-Md., says CISPA provides essential tools for repelling online security threats: "Without important, immediate changes to American cyber security policy, I believe our country will continue to be at risk for a catastrophic attack on our nation's vital networks, networks that power our homes, provide our clean water or maintain the other critical services we use every day."

Sounds like he was talking about an eventuality just like the Flame virus, or the older Stuxnet worm, for that matter—both of which, incidentally, appear to have targeted Iranian oil- and nuclear facilities, and neither of which has been officially traced back to any country or agency, despite our already overwhelming security apparatus—just over a month before Flame was discovered by a Russian antivirus company which, by the way, currently employs the virus hunter who discovered Stuxnet in 2010.

I'll leave the meaning of such coincidences for you to ponder. But suffice it to say, it does not bode well if a law like CISPA is enacted that allows companies and governments to share information collected online, especially when combined with a massive data-mining virus that can skip around from one wireless piece of technology to another, from computers to cell phones to iPads, gathering data on every single social network contact every single person has, and audio files on every single conversation any one might have at any point in time. Especially now that we will shortly have the facility to store and "process" all that data.

In closing, I will simply urge you to take efforts at curbing online freedom and extending the government's reach seriously, and whenever such efforts are launched, take action to help preserve your right to health freedom, which is closely tied to the right to online freedom of speech.

For right now, you can take a stand by signing the Campaign for Liberty Protect Internet Freedom Mandate.


IMO the hand of the Gadiantons is clearly seen in
1. bank bailouts; and efforts to get people and companies and countries deep into debt; and
2. Big Pharma in league with the FDA, obamacare, etc.
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Re: Identifying and NOT supporting latter-day Gadiantons

Postby singyourwayhome » Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:55 pm

I agree, the time to act is now.

It was time to act, 100 years ago, before the Federal Reserve was begun, before the federal government took the power to tax, before the states gave up their right to state representation (17th amendment), before we started fighting non-defensive wars.

It was time to act, 75 years ago, before FDR was voted in, before he was voted in again, before his "100 days" instituted a whole slew of redistributative and socialist policies. When then-Agriculture Secretary Ezra Taft Benson warned that we needed to turn around those policies while there was still time to reduce the amount of pain they'd bring.

It was time to act, 50 years ago, before The War on Poverty, before The Great Society, before Medicare was begun, before our money system was changed to nothing but fiat, before we legalized killing unborn babies, before the derivatives market became a standard option, before the Department of Education was started and took away a large amount of local control.

This is obviously an incomplete list of how the robbers/takers have convinced our nation to "build them up and support them, beginning at the more wicked part of them, until they had overspread all the land... and had seduced the more part of the righteous until they had come down to believe in their works and partake of their spoils... And thus they did obtain the sole management of the government." (Helaman 6:38-39)

I wasn't even born for the first couple time periods mentioned, and certainly wasn't voting age for the last one there. I was pretty mad once I saw all those pieces that were in place before I even had a say in it. But I AM here now, and am blessed to have the Book of Mormon, other scriptures, online Church magazines, living prophets, books by people who were aware, the amazing resource of the internet, and most importantly, the Gift of the Holy Ghost to learn what principles govern both good and evil. The only question that remains, then, is:

Now that I know it's the time for ME to act, how do I do it
? How can I make the biggest difference?
We each have different ideas- though they're related-that's what this thread has been about.
We tear down the devil's kingdom by building up the Lord's kingdom. First we have to be sure we know the difference. That's where studying the principles comes into play. Then it's a matter of continuing to learn & apply, first sharing with our families, then extending out, to help others turn to the Lord as their Savior. If people of this nation really believed and lived that, they would not have been so easily deceived into accepting all these terrible policies we now see. We may not be able to change that now, but we can be part of the rebuilding to come.
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Re: Identifying and NOT supporting latter-day Gadiantons

Postby jonesde » Sun Aug 05, 2012 11:14 pm

Very good points mes and singyourwayhome. So much has happened to expand government and make violations of the constitution a normal day-to-day activity for government agencies and agents, and much of it before many of us here could understand what was going on, let alone do anything about it.

The trick is, what can we do to save the US Constitution? It is a document with terms that constraint governments, especially the federal govt but also state and local govts. What can we do to get them to follow the law in the Constitution, and what can we do about it when individuals or groups of govt agents (elected, appointed, or hired) violate the laws laid out in the Constitution?

What can we do about senators who pass unconstitutional laws? We (or anyone with sufficient wealth or time and ability to organize and raise money) can try to wait until that law is enforced and then spend millions of dollars taking it court after court until state or federal Supreme courts overturn the law. But what if it is clearly unconstitutional and the courts do not overturn it? There are hundreds of cases like this where the Supreme court has clearly changed the meaning and intent of the words of the constitution. So then what do we do?

What can we do about law enforcement that violates the 4th amendment? What can we do about law enforcement and courts that do not follow the 5th amendment? Right now, usually we just go to prison, or if it is some other unlucky person in the hot seat we just let them go to prison reasoning that they must have done something wrong and their legal rights laid out in the Constitution are not worth protecting. What happens when you challenge a court on their decision? If you do it through proper channels it will be ignored by their buddies who run the "proper" channels. If you do it directly, you go to jail for contempt of court... for as long as they think they can get away with (which can be years, and has been in many cases, for example journalists who won't reveal sources).

On a more local level, what do we do when state politicians claim they are not bound by the Constitution and violate it? What do we do when state politicians do something that is terribly harmful but also clearly not something explicitly disallowed by the constitution (stealing for welfare or social programs, for example)?

A major part of the problem seems to be that the "people" have no voice except through the filter of government, and that filter is heavily biased toward growing government and expanding their powers and privileges. They can only do this at the expense of the populace, since they do not generate any revenue... they just take what others produce. How can we challenge them through official channels when they control and manipulate those channels? Outside of those channels, what other options do we even have?
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Re: Identifying and NOT supporting latter-day Gadiantons

Postby awake » Sun Aug 05, 2012 11:36 pm

singyourwayhome wrote:Now that I know it's the time for ME to act, how do I do it? How can I make the biggest difference?



I believe we save our country one family at a time. If we can't save our marriages and families from disintegration nothing else we do we will make much difference or save our country. Nothing but righteous, intact families can save America.
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Re: Identifying and NOT supporting latter-day Gadiantons

Postby DrJones » Mon Aug 06, 2012 10:03 am

Good points.


We can't turn back the clock; but consider that we can seek a quiet peaceful approach by going back to quasi-independent (then independent) small communities.
Note this warning by Senator Wallace Bennett seventy years ago:

Can We Have a Dictator?

Senator Wallace F. Bennett

BYU Speeches of the Year » 1961


The question has been asked, “Can we have a dictator?” With the immense aggregation of powers in the Presidency, the answer is yes we can have a dictator if we elect a power-hungry President. Such a President, with the growing power in Washington and the lagging power in the States, has all of the tools necessary to establish a dictatorship.

The only real check on a would-be dictator-President is Congress. If a power-hungry President is able to dominate a weak Congress, controlled by a majority of his own party, this last check to a dictatorship would be removed.
Just twenty-five years ago, the government of the United States was held to lack authority under the Constitution to regulate industry, to fix prices, to impose wage scales, to force workers to join unions, to regulate agriculture, to limit production.

All that changed with a change in the Supreme Court brought about by a strong-willed President.

As President Franklin Roosevelt said in a 1936 message to Congress:

We have built up new instruments of public power. In the hands of a people’s Government this power is wholesome and proper. But in the hands of political puppets of an economic autocracy such power would provide shackles for the liberties of the people.

None of those instruments of power has been removed. Indeed, the power of the Presidency has been extended and enlarged since 1936.

National Emergency Power

National emergencies, actual or designated, have been a major source of growing Executive power. Abraham Lincoln used the emergency of the Civil War to summarily arrest an individual and ignored Chief Justice Roger Taney’s decision that he had no power to do it. President Hayes used troops to put down a railroad strike, and President Cleveland used them again to stop a pullman strike.

Since the first election of President Franklin D. Roosevelt, emergencies have come thick and fast. They started as soon as he was inaugurated, when he declared a national bank holiday. They continued through the National Recovery Administration and other New Deal measures until the time of his death. The U.S. News and World Report observed:

The Supreme Court outlawed several New Deal laws, but the President went right on exercising emergency powers given to him by Congress in peace and war.

President Truman followed the same path. Shortly after he assumed office, he sought power from Congress to draft railroad workers into the Army to forestall a strike. Later he seized the coal mines, and then seized the railroads. The only temporary interruption to this trend was the steel seizure case. Congress would not let let him do this. President Eisenhower sent the troops to Little Rock.

New emergencies can conceivably arise that will permit the President to seize the nation’s farms to insure proper planting, or to take over unions to keep industry producing, just as companies have been taken over to keep workers satisfied. A new President and Congress, with a conservative bent, could just as easily drive down farm prices and wages for the benefit of industry, as the Truman and Roosevelt administrations tried to raise prices and wages at the cost of industry.

If we are not “eternally vigilant,” we can have a dictator here.

. . . We have much in our national system that militates against the rise of a dictator. The Bill of Rights with its philosophy of individual rights against oppression is still a curb on a power-hungry President. But if I were to guess as to how the Constitution may “hang by a thread” it would be because of the immense powers given to the President and his opportunity for their abuse.

Let us delve once again into the great principles of the Constitution and resolve that we will do all in our power to preserve these principles for our posterity. This is our duty as citizens of the United States, and pre-eminently our duty as Latter-day Saints, because without the Constitution this glorious restoration would not have taken place in this land and might not have taken place at this point in history.

I hope that as you go out into the world and take your responsibilities of full citizenship, you will carry with you a great love for the Constitution and its inherent Bill of Rights.



Senator Wallace F. Bennett February 15, 1961, BYU Speeches of the Year, 1961, pp. 10-13.


"political puppets of an economic autocracy" - this hits the nail on the head...

We need to become free of the "economic autocracy"... and one way is by developing home-energy sources, and getting free of debts as quickly as possible.
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Re: Identifying and NOT supporting latter-day Gadiantons

Postby chemish » Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:12 am

This thread is full of awesome. Although i don't even know where to begin to comment i just want to say thanks to everyone for their input, especially DrJones.
One point i would add about the modern day gadiantons is that their presence is directly correlated with the wickedness of the people (im sure most of us realize this in this thread)

"Proverbs 29:2 When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn."

Yes when the gadianton robbers take hold of society the people mourn, but how did they get there?
I think us as latter day saints have more to do with their rise to power than we like to admit.

Thoughts?
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Re: Identifying and NOT supporting latter-day Gadiantons

Postby DrJones » Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:30 pm

chemish wrote:This thread is full of awesome. Although i don't even know where to begin to comment i just want to say thanks to everyone for their input, especially DrJones.
One point i would add about the modern day gadiantons is that their presence is directly correlated with the wickedness of the people (im sure most of us realize this in this thread)

"Proverbs 29:2 When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn."

Yes when the gadianton robbers take hold of society the people mourn, but how did they get there?
I think us as latter day saints have more to do with their rise to power than we like to admit.

Thoughts?


Welcome, Chemish -- yes just as the Nephites supported the Gadiantons until they obtained sole management of the government, Helaman 6:22ff. Welcome also to Greyhaim and others new to the discussion here.

Here's a relevant note from Judge Napolitano:


Sen. Rand Paul’s government reckoning

By Andrew Napolitano

Gazillions. That’s the number of times that the federal government has spied on Americans since Sept. 11, 2001, through the use of drones, legal search warrants, illegal search warrants, federal agent-written search warrants, and just plain government spying. This is according to Sen. Rand Paul, Kentucky Republican, who, when he asked the government to tell him what it was doing to violate our privacy, was given a briefing that was classified. The senator — one of just a few in the U.S. Senate who believes that the Constitution means what it says — was required by federal law to agree not to reveal what spies and bureaucrats told him during the briefing in reply to his inquiries about the government’s violations of the right to privacy.

The rules for classified briefings of members of Congress on areas of government behavior that the government wants to keep from its employers — the American people — are a real Catch-22. Those rules allow representatives and senators to interrogate government officials about government behavior that they are afraid to reveal, and it requires those officials to answer honestly and completely, but the rules keep the interrogations secret and they expressly prohibit members of Congress from telling anyone what they have learned.

So Mr. Paul and his colleagues who joined in the secret briefing now know the terrible truth about the government watching us, but they cannot reveal what they know. Mr. Paul, who is the son of Rep. Ron Paul — the greatest congressional defender of limited government in our era — when asked what he learned at these secret briefings, and aware that he could be prosecuted for telling the truth, chose a fictional word to describe the vast number of violations of privacy at the hands of federal agents revealed to him in the briefings — gazillions. Mr. Paul’s personal courage in using a word like gazillions to convey an oblique message of truth in the face of an unjust law that commanded his silence reminded me of St. Thomas More’s silence in the face of an unjust law that commanded his assent to the king’s headship of the Church.

The feds are no more happy with the senator’s personal courage than the king was with St. Thomas More’s, but there is not much they can do about it. If you check out your dog-eared Webster’s Unabridged you will find that it does not list the word “gazillions” or any form of it. Yet most of us hearing or seeing that word understand it to mean some huge — perhaps even incalculable — number.

The point here is terrifying. If the government derives its powers from the consent of the governed, how can it do things to us for which we have never given consent? And when it does these things — like send a drone over your back yard to learn who is coming to your Saturday barbeque or to see what fertilizer you are using in your vegetable garden or to take a peek into your living room or bedroom — and when the laws that the government has written prevent our elected representatives from telling us what it is doing, we are at the doorstep of tyranny. The government gave Mr. Paul the distinct impression that it was afraid of our exercise of our personal freedoms and thus it needs to watch us as we do so. This is the same government whose stated principal purpose is to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution, and thus personal freedom.

What has become of the Jeffersonian value of the primacy of the individual over the government in a free society? How have we lost the American value that the government works for us, we don’t work for the government? What remains of the constitutionally-guaranteed right to be left alone?

The answer to these questions goes to the nature of human freedom and personal courage. Freedom lies in our hearts, but to survive it must do more than just lie there. Its essence is the exercise of unfettered choices and those we make address our perpetual yearning for truth. This is a natural process that — just like the muscles in our bodies — will atrophy if unused.

So, when the government scares us into the nonuse of freedom, we have only ourselves to blame when Big Brother comes calling. And when he does come, on his face there will be no smile.
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Re: Identifying and NOT supporting latter-day Gadiantons

Postby awake » Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:37 pm

DrJones wrote:
awake wrote:It's one thing to identify the Gadiantons 'outside' the Church and in Government, but it's much harder and much more vital to identify the Gadiantons 'inside' the Church, the wolves in sheep's clothing that we have been warned about.


Hmmmm.... I think there is an important point and distinction here.

Helaman 6 says the Gadiantons acquired "sole management of the government", hence the discussion above. But it does NOT say that "evil schemers" (Gadiantons) acquired "sole management of the Church", and clearly they did not



Actually I believe the ancient prophets did warn us of an apostasy in the Holy Church of God today, which could happen by being taken over by 'evil schemers' or as the scriptures say, false doctrines and false teachers, etc.. It appears that these ancient prophesies have been fulfilled and that everyone in the Church today, except a few, are deceived to support and do evil.

We especially see how all members and leaders in the Church today, except a few, have been deceived to support and vote for Gadiantons in office and their socialism/communism, as well as accept and commit other evils of our day.

"Most members are communists and don't even know it."
Elder H. Verlan Andersen, requoted by his son, Hans V. Andersen.

"It is from 'within' the Church that the greatest hindrance (deception) comes and now the question aries, can we avoid being deceived?"
Teachings of Ezra T. Benson, p. 406-7.

"Darkness covereth the earth, and gross darkness the minds of the people, and all flesh has become corrupt before my face. Behold, vengence cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth... and upon my house shall it begin."
D&C 112:23-25.

"They had seduced the more part of the righteous until they had come down to believe in their works and partake of their spoils and to join them in their secret murders and combinations."
Hel. 6:38 (This seems to be the case also today in the Church)

"Condemning the righteous because of their righteousness; letting the guilty and the wicked go unpunished."
Hel. 7:15 (This also seems to be rampant in the Church today)

There are none, save a few only, who do not lift themselves up in pride and persecution and all manner of iniquities. Every one of your churches has become polluted because of pride. Why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why do you build up your secret abominations to get gain and cause that widows should mourn and also orphans to mourn?"
Mormon 8:36-41 (This appears to be so true of our Church today of which this scripture appears to be speaking)

"They have all gone out of the way and become corrupted. Because of pride, false teachers, and false doctrines, their churches have become corrupted. They have all gone astray, save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ."
2 Nephi 28:11-26 (Again, this appears true today, every week at Church I hear much false doctrine taught and accepted.)

"The more righteous part of the people had nearly all become wicked, there were but few righteous men among them."
3 Nephi 7:7 (Pres. Hinckley likened this to our day. I agree, the same could be said of our Church today)

"There are none which doeth good, save it be a few and they err in many instances because of priestcrafts, all having corrupt minds."
D&C 33:4 (This again appears to be talking of the situation of the Church today)

"They had become exceedingly wicked, yea, the more part of them had turned out of the way of righteousness and did trample under their feet the commandments of God."
Hel. 6:31 (Sadly this also seems to describe the membership today.)
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Re: Identifying and NOT supporting latter-day Gadiantons

Postby firend » Thu Aug 23, 2012 4:29 pm

I agree with you awake

I think many cannot see that corruption has entered the church to atleast some degree. Everything from the Hatch-Obama bill guaranteeing the church gets its tithing from bankrupt people to the billion dollar mall to giving gays their rights and stripping Mormons of theirs, to immigration issues against the constitution, to Donald Staheli who was a 70 being CFR and chairman of the points of light foundation, All the BYU new world order propaganda being driven forward and yet some of the leaders sit on the board and yet this evil still is happening. etc the list goes on

This is why I like Avraham's Gileadi's books so much on Isaiah. All about a future prophet who will come clean the mess up. Or as Mayor's book talks about the new Moses D&C 103 will clean up Isreal like the old Moses.

I think it is sad because I know these leaders of the church have the keys, but something is going on somewhere that stinks. I hope Monson or whoever else is aware. Obviously Joseph Smith had many high ups apostasize, and some even tried to kill him. Are we any better today? I don't see equality or Zion, so if the shoe fits?
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Re: Identifying and NOT supporting latter-day Gadiantons

Postby awake » Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:36 pm

firend wrote:Obviously Joseph Smith had many high ups apostasize, and some even tried to kill him. Are we any better today? I don't see equality or Zion, so if the shoe fits?



Yes, why would we ever think we or our leaders are more righteous today than when the Church had Joseph Smith leading and teaching them, and still half or more of the apostles apostatized?
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