No CK for Adulterers.

[awakecaptain of 100]

I'd say "legal and lawful" is defined based on God's Law and not Man's law. If God declares something is right, it is 'legal and lawful'

Does anyone have any good quotes from Prophets or Apostles teaching this idea?

I would really appreciate knowing of some because I am in an important discussion with someone about this.

And I agree, all laws and decrees have no validity unless they are according to God's laws.

[RabbanahLlamacaptain of 50]

I'd say "legal and lawful" is defined based on God's Law and not Man's law. If God declares something is right, it is 'legal and lawful'

Does anyone have any good quotes from Prophets or Apostles teaching this idea?

I would really appreciate knowing of some because I am in an important discussion with someone about this.

And I agree, all laws and decrees have no validity unless they are according to God's laws.

I don't know if this is the kind of thing you were looking for but here it is anyway. D&C 58:

21 Let no man break the laws of the land, for he that keepeth the laws of God hath no need to break the laws of the land.

22 Wherefore, be subject to the powers that be, until he reigns whose right it is to reign, and subdues all enemies under his feet.

23 Behold, the laws which ye have received from my hand are the laws of the church, and in this light ye shall hold them forth. Behold, here is wisdom.

[BrianM]

I'd say "legal and lawful" is defined based on God's Law and not Man's law. If God declares something is right, it is 'legal and lawful'

Does anyone have any good quotes from Prophets or Apostles teaching this idea?

I would really appreciate knowing of some because I am in an important discussion with someone about this.

And I agree, all laws and decrees have no validity unless they are according to God's laws.

If I find any quotes I'll post them...
I recall in my studies of early Church history - it was common among the Saints to believe that any marriage not performed by someone with authority through Christ's restored Church was invalid and of no effect (i.e. only recognizing marriages performed by someone with proper authority from the Church as 'legal and lawful') - which was also the reason why some people re-married without worrying about getting a 'government decreed divorce'. (A history I read of Parley P. Pratt was one place I saw this).

[minganocaptain of 1,000]

Once upon a time I knew a guy who divorced far more people on his mission than he baptized. He spent about half of his time in the mission office arranging divorces and weddings to deal with all of the Catholic messes. It was routine (at least once or twice a month) for the missionaries to arrange a divorce from the first wife then a wedding with the live-in followed immediately by a baptism (wedding in the chapel then a baptism moment later).

[gdemetzcaptain of 100]

Raban, you need some more study, a lot more. The First presidency is not giving a restoration of former blessings so someone can go to a lower. Whatever they bind on earth WILL BE BOUND IN HEAVEN as long as the person remains worthy after that restoration. Using your logic, the people of Ammon who committed murders could not inherit the celestial kingdom. Also, it appears that you have ignored D&C 19 as well as the quote from Brigham Young which I gave you. You need to give this up!

[RabbanahLlamacaptain of 50]

Raban, you need some more study, a lot more. The First presidency is not giving a restoration of former blessings so someone can go to a lower. Whatever they bind on earth WILL BE BOUND IN HEAVEN as long as the person remains worthy after that restoration. Using your logic, the people of Ammon who committed murders could not inherit the celestial kingdom. Also, it appears that you have ignored D&C 19 as well as the quote from Brigham Young which I gave you. You need to give this up!

Maybe you're right and Joseph Smith, Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., and I all need to study more. Using my logic I wouldn't say the people of Ammon couldn't inherit the Celestial Kingdom. I was talking about members who commit adultery after they have made covenants in the temple. Those who have sinned against the greater light. The people of Ammon had almost no light before they were converted so wouldn't they receive the lesser condemnation?

I read D&C 19 and the quotes you presented me.

The glory of the Telestial Kingdom surpasses all understanding. That's not endless punishment or suffering, that's heaven. Even getting placed in the Telestial Kingdom is a blessing, not a punishment.

[minganocaptain of 1,000]

I'd say "legal and lawful" is defined based on God's Law and not Man's law. If God declares something is right, it is 'legal and lawful'

This is a reasonable interpretation, but is not how the phrase is interpreted. In those nations where a church marriage is not recognized members are prohibited from having sexual relations without government recognition - you must have both a civil ceremony and a temple sealing.

[minganocaptain of 1,000]

I was talking about members who commit adultery after they have made covenants in the temple.

You need to address this - stop ignoring it.

All polygamists had sexual relations with persons to whom they were not lawfully and legally married because polygamy was never legal in the US.

You are wrong, and your hatred and refusal to forgive others is going to come back and bite you hard.

[Raindropcaptain of 100]

You are wrong, and your hatred and refusal to forgive others is going to come back and bite you hard.

Let us all join hands and pray for Rab's soul. He needs to stop reading so much Joseph Smith. Thankfully not many here are guilty of so grievous an error.

[RabbanahLlamacaptain of 50]

I was talking about members who commit adultery after they have made covenants in the temple.

You need to address this - stop ignoring it.

All polygamists had sexual relations with persons to whom they were not lawfully and legally married because polygamy was never legal in the US.

You are wrong, and your hatred and refusal to forgive others is going to come back and bite you hard.

Polygamy is a whole different discussion. If you want to discuss polygamy start your own thread.

Let's not make this personal. I am not hating or refusing to forgive anyone. I forgive all men, like the Lord commanded. D&C 64:10-11.

[minganocaptain of 1,000]

Polygamy is a whole different discussion.

Uh, no. It isn't.

But that's fine.

[RabbanahLlamacaptain of 50]

Polygamy is a whole different discussion.

Uh, no. It isn't.

But that's fine.

Uh, thanks for understanding.

[liberty_bellecaptain of 100]

Katmr:

I just want you to know that I felt the Spirit as you testified of your sins, your trials, your repentance and your victory. I am very choked up thanking Heavenly Father for having the love and patience to bring one of his children back to Him. Your willingness to be purged and sanctified is the true character of a Disciple of Christ.

Alma the Younger and the Four Sons of Mosiah were deemed in the scriptures, "the very vilest of sinners" and yet God was able to work through them because of their repentance and permanent change of hearts to bring many souls back to God. It does not say that any of them had committed adultry but they were partaking in the doctrine of Nehor, so it could be likely that this did happen. His father was a Priest in King Noah's court which was said of them that they partook of all kinds of iniquities including concubines etc. I believe that Jesus Christ's atonement can and does cover adultry, but it all depends upon you.

John5 is right that the church does not opperate this way as much. My former step dad was excommunicated the first time for cheating on his wife for 8 of the ten years they were married. When my mom met him shortly after his excommunication she believed his repentance to be sincere so she married him and one year after his excomm. he was rebaptized.

My mom and former step dad were married 13 years when she found out he had been cheating on her 10 of the 13 years they were married. He was again excomm. After a two year separation they got back together and he was re-baptized again 6 months later. 5 years after they got back together, he started in again with womanizing and so my mom separated from him again, only for him to cheat, lie and all manner of evil.....never to be excommunicated. He and my mom had a lengthy ugly divorce because of his lies and deceit. One year after their divorce his live in girl friend of 1 year was baptized and they are now "happily married" for two years and he still has his membership in the church.

So, it all certainly feels unjust and my mom has had a hard time dealing with that issue at times, but we have all given it to the Lord for him to deal with. No matter what leadership does here, if they deal unwisely and allow someone to pollute the church, they will answer for it. Whatever my former step dad thinks he is getting away with, in the end he will not be able to. I feel such sadness that his repentance could not have been like Katmr's. We would still have our family and we would not have had such incredible heartache. That is the big difference.

[gdemetzcaptain of 100]

Raban, you also need to taker in consideration the statement by Brigham Young. It wouldn't make sense for someone to theoretically (even though nearly impossible) be able to get out of the final hell and advance, but no one could advance above that from one kingdom to another, keeping in mind that statements like "worlds without end" and "everlasting punishment" are general and not specific to an individual as Brigham Young pointed out. To me, being in the Terrestrial kingdom forever and knowing that I could never advance no matter how good I was and how much I repented would be an unending punishment.

[RabbanahLlamacaptain of 50]

Raban, you also need to taker in consideration the statement by Brigham Young. It wouldn't make sense for someone to theoretically (even though nearly impossible) be able to get out of the final hell and advance, but no one could advance above that from one kingdom to another, keeping in mind that statements like "worlds without end" and "everlasting punishment" are general and not specific to an individual as Brigham Young pointed out. To me, being in the Terrestrial kingdom forever and knowing that I could never advance no matter how good I was and how much I repented would be an unending punishment.

I don't believe advancing from a lower kingdom from a higher kingdom is possible in general or for specific individuals. That's another one of the seven deadly heresies Bruce R. McConkie pointed out.

The glory of the Terrestrial Kingdom surpasses all mortal understanding. You can make assumptions about it, but we'll never know until we get the opportunity to see it.

[katmrcaptain of 100]

Awake- "Bottom line is, Joseph said that 'adulterers' couldn't make it to the Celestial kingdom, one who has truly repented from such, isn't an 'adulterer' anymore. They are as clean and pure as anyone else."

Rabbannahllama "Yes they are as clean and pure as anyone else after repenting, but their reward in heaven is not the same."

"I said I agree with what Joseph Smith said. Adulterers have lost their chance to inherit the Celestial Kingdom. Others were throwing in what they thought Joseph Smith meant in an attempt to water down his bold remark. I meant the same thing Joseph Smith said nothing more, nothing less.D&C 76:51-52"

"Forgiveness allows us to escape the suffering we would have had to endure for our sins. If you completely repent of adultery you won't have to suffer like Christ did for that sin. But you're eternal reward has been jeopardized. The prodigal son returned home to nothing. If he wanted anything he'd have to work for it. The point of coming back is to try to earn back what you can. Repent so you can live in the Terrestrial Kingdom instead of the Telestial Kingdom."



51 They are they who ... believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given--

52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;

Joseph Fielding Smith (Quorum of the Twelve)


Baptism is the door into the celestial kingdom. All the ordinances of the gospel pertain to the celestial kingdom, and any person who is faithful to the covenant of baptism will be entitled to enter there, but no person can receive an exaltation in the celestial kingdom without the ordinances of the temple. The endowments are for advancement in that kingdom, and the sealings for our perfection, provided we keep our covenants and obligations.

People baptized, and who are not endowed in the temple of the Lord, may enter the celestial kingdom. But that does not mean that a baptized person is going to get the exaltation in that kingdom. He is not going to pass on to the fulness just by being baptized. He will not pass on to the fulness even after he has been baptized and received an endowment in the temple. He has also to receive the other ordinances so that he can become through his faithfulness and obedience a son of God. . . .

The first principles of the gospel are principles that save. By obedience to them we enter the celestial kingdom of God. Then, when we get into that kingdom, if we have received the other covenants, have been true and faithful to other obligations, we will advance until we shall become like God -- his sons, his daughters, receiving a fulness of his kingdom. That is the promise. (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:45-46)


Bruce R. McConkie (Quorum of the Twelve)


Baptism serves four purposes: 1. It is for the remission of sins. (D. & C. 13; 19:31; 20:37; 33:11; 49:13; 68:27; 84:27, 64, 74; 107:20.) 2. It admits the repentant person to membership in the Church and kingdom of God on earth. (D. & C. 20:37, 71-74.) 3. It is the gate to the celestial kingdom of heaven, that is, it starts a person out on the straight and narrow path which leads to eternal life. (2 Ne. 9:23-24; 31:13-21.) 4. It is the means whereby the door to personal sanctification is opened. "Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name," the resurrected Lord proclaimed to the Nephites, "that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day." (3 Ne. 27:20.) [Mormon Doctrine, p. 70]


Lorenzo Snow (President)


There is but one way in which men can receive salvation, exaltation, and glory, and that is through the order of baptism and the ordinances connected therewith. No mortal man or woman will ever receive celestial glory unless he or she has been baptized, receiving this ordinance personally or by proxy. That is the order that God has established. (Teachings of Lorenzo Snow, p.96)


Spencer W. Kimball (President)


The celestial world can only be entered by unlocking the doors with the proper keys -- the first key being baptism by immersion for the remission of sins and then the reception of the Holy Ghost follows, by those in authority to give it. Then we must continue with our church and temple work, serving others, loving the Lord with all our heart, might, mind, and strength, and loving our fellowmen more than ourselves. (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p.28)

Joseph Smith (President)


Every man lives for himself. Adam was made to open the way of the world, and for dressing the garden. Noah was born to save seed of everything, when the earth was washed of its wickedness by the flood; and the Son of God came into the world to redeem it from the fall. But except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. This eternal truth settles the question of all men's religion. A man may be saved, after the judgment, in the terrestrial kingdom, or in the telestial kingdom, but he can never see the celestial kingdom of God, without being born of water and the Spirit. He may receive a glory like unto the moon, [i.e., of which the light of the moon is typical], or a star, [i.e., of which the light of the stars is typical], but he can never come unto Mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels; to the general assembly and church of the Firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, unless he becomes as a little child, and is taught by the Spirit of God. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.12)

Joseph Fielding Smith (Quorum of the Twelve)


The Prophet says a man may enter into the terrestrial or the telestial kingdom who has not been baptized with water and who has not in this life received these ordinances, but he can never enter into the celestial kingdom without complying with these eternal laws.

Each kingdom, of course, is governed by laws. We have nothing to do with the laws of the telestial or terrestrial kingdoms, so far as the preaching of the gospel is concerned. Our mission is to preach the salvation of the kingdom of God, where he and Christ dwell, which is the celestial kingdom. And all of the principles of the gospel which have been given unto us pertain to the celestial kingdom. (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:25-26)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Will those who enter the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms have to have the ordinance of baptism? No! Baptism is the door into the celestial kingdom. The Lord made this clear to Nicodemus. We are not preaching a salvation for the inhabitants of the terrestrial or the telestial kingdoms. All of the ordinances of the gospel pertain to the celestial kingdom, and what the Lord will require by way of ordinances, if any, in the other kingdoms he has not revealed. (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:329)

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The First Presidency have said in answer to a similar question: "We know of no ordinances pertaining to the terrestrial or the telestial kingdom. All of the ordinances of the gospel are given for the salvation of men in the celestial kingdom and pertain unto that kingdom." (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:330)

[minganocaptain of 1,000]

There is but one way in which men can receive salvation, exaltation, and glory, and that is through the order of baptism and the ordinances connected therewith. No mortal man or woman will ever receive celestial glory unless he or she has been baptized, receiving this ordinance personally or by proxy. That is the order that God has established. (Teachings of Lorenzo Snow, p.96)

I really, REALLY hate that you pretty much can't take anything that anybody says on face value. The above quote is mostly true but "no mortal man or woman" indicates that there are no exceptions but there absolutely and certainly are - little children and those of diminished capacity. In order to get the full picture you have to do a bunch of other reading and studying and recognize when the statements of the prophets aren't entirely correct.

The same thing happens in the bible - you always have to read the fine print because absolute statements and declarations are usually subject to caveats and exclusions and exceptions that you might not always know about.

[katmrcaptain of 100]

There is but one way in which men can receive salvation, exaltation, and glory, and that is through the order of baptism and the ordinances connected therewith. No mortal man or woman will ever receive celestial glory unless he or she has been baptized, receiving this ordinance personally or by proxy. That is the order that God has established. (Teachings of Lorenzo Snow, p.96)

I really, REALLY hate that you pretty much can't take anything that anybody says on face value. The above quote is mostly true but "no mortal man or woman" indicates that there are no exceptions but there absolutely and certainly are - little children and those of diminished capacity. In order to get the full picture you have to do a bunch of other reading and studying and recognize when the statements of the prophets aren't entirely correct.

The same thing happens in the bible - you always have to read the fine print because absolute statements and declarations are usually subject to caveats and exclusions and exceptions that you might not always know about.

Mingano, I agree with what you have said. The quotes were only provided to support the ordinance of baptism, being a celestial ordinance. If you know of any exclusions or exceptions to this being a celestial ordinance from the scriptures or extra study that one may not know about, please share.

[gdemetzcaptain of 100]

Raban, I am aware that McConkie taught that was a heresy, but the first presidency did not support that when the question was presented to them in writing (before when they were answering questions-they no longer do that). Also, it is not consistent with what other prophets and apostles have taught, namely, Brigham Young as I previously mentioned. It is also not consistent with D&C 19, nor is it consistent with God's judgments being Godlike.

[RabbanahLlamacaptain of 50]

Raban, I am aware that McConkie taught that was a heresy, but the first presidency did not support that when the question was presented to them in writing (before when they were answering questions-they no longer do that). Also, it is not consistent with what other prophets and apostles have taught, namely, Brigham Young as I previously mentioned. It is also not consistent with D&C 19, nor is it consistent with God's judgments being Godlike.

Inheriting the Telestial or Terrestrial Kingdom is not a punishment. It is only a punishment in your opinion. You can't even comprehend how glorious it is. Outer Darkness is the punishment.

[gdemetzcaptain of 100]

That depends own one's viewpoint. However, remember that it would be inconsistent for Brigham Young to state that someone could advance from the final hell to the telestial kingdom, etc., and then not to be able to advance from the telestial kingdom. It's also would be very unGodlike judgement for God to not allow one to progress if he has totally repented and also paid the complete price in sufferings for his sins! This is the point Brigham Young was making.

[gdemetzcaptain of 100]

The quote that was attributed to Joseph Smith did not state that adulterers could never inherit the celestial kingdom! If they repent and pay the price for their sins, they absolutely can! Don't you think that Alma and the sons of Mosiah, who were the vilest of sinners will inherit the celestial kingdom?!? And, what about the people of Ammon who did worse, and were murderers, don't you think they will inherit the celestial kingdom?!? ALL THAT IS REQUIRED FOR GOD TO FORGIVE ANYONE IS THAT HE REPENT WITH ALL HIS HEART, AND IF HE HAS DONE THIS AND PAID THE PRICE FOR HIS SINS, THEN GOD WOULD NOT BE JUST TO REQUIRE MORE!!!

[awakecaptain of 100]

Inheriting the Telestial or Terrestrial Kingdom is not a punishment. It is only a punishment in your opinion. You can't even comprehend how glorious it is. Outer Darkness is the punishment.

I believe the Tel. and Terr. Kingdoms will be horrible punishments, despite how nice a place they may be. And those who go there will feel eternal remorse for having wasted their probation and lost their chance to be with their spouse and children for all eternity as an eternal family. That is no small loss. It will be felt forever.

Joseph Smith described those who were resurrected to a lesser glory than they had thought they were going to get and he said he never saw a sadder thing. They were devastated.

[minganocaptain of 1,000]

I believe the Tel. and Terr. Kingdoms will be horrible punishments, despite how nice a place they may be.

For this reason I really hope that there is an opt-out clause that allows you to cease to exist entirely.

[minganocaptain of 1,000]

Joseph Smith described those who were resurrected to a lesser glory than they had thought they were going to get and he said he never saw a sadder thing. They were devastated.

Looking into the future? Few people have already been assigned their glory.

[shadowcaptain of 1,000]

Joseph Smith described those who were resurrected to a lesser glory than they had thought they were going to get and he said he never saw a sadder thing. They were devastated.

I don't recall ever reading that one, care to cite the quote?

[minganocaptain of 1,000]

I don't recall ever reading that one, care to cite the quote?

I've never heard it either, and it seems rather cruel. Again, I really hope that anybody who doesn't like their eternal lot has the option to surrender all consciousness forever. It satisfies both justice (execution for ones sins) and mercy (a cessation of suffering).

[LukeAir2008captain of 1,000]

I believe the Tel. and Terr. Kingdoms will be horrible punishments, despite how nice a place they may be.

For this reason I really hope that there is an opt-out clause that allows you to cease to exist entirely.

You can never cease to exist. You have always existed and you will continue to exist forever.

Trillions and trillions of intelligences have never been allowed to even have a chance of becoming a human created in the image of God himself. They have settled for the chance to be a dog or a snake. You were selected to be given the chance to be a God with the power to organise matter. Very few will actually be exalted.

You would be better off in the Telestial Kingdom as a glorified human being minus your genitalia than being stripped of your spirit body and being returned to chaos to then be brought out again to be a parrot or a spider in the future.

[minganocaptain of 1,000]

You can never cease to exist. You have always existed and you will continue to exist forever.

I may have to exist but I don't have to be conscious.

You would be better off in the Telestial Kingdom as a glorified human being minus your genitalia than being stripped of your spirit body and being returned to chaos to then be brought out again to be a parrot or a spider in the future.

1. [citation needed] You have no idea what we would be better off as - pure speculation on your part.

2. Being brought out again as a parrot or a spider or something would be reincarnation. We don't believe in that.

[minganocaptain of 1,000]

You can never cease to exist.

So is this something that that God can't do? Or won't do? If he can't, why can't he? If he won't, doesn't that mean that he would rather see somebody be unhappy forever rather than put an end to their misery? I don't see this as particularly compassionate.

And the thing about spending eternity without a couple of glands. First, this is directly in opposition to the teaching that our entire bodies will be restored to perfection. Second, why is the only difference between the CK and the other two based entirely on the ability to have sex?