No CK for Adulterers.

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No CK for Adulterers.

Postby RabbanahLlama » Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:18 pm

Adultery -"For Latter-day Saints it is defined as sexual intercourse between a married person and someone other than his or her legal and lawful spouse." (BYU Mormon Encyclopedia)

Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.2, p.93
ADULTERY AND REPENTANCE. How severe is the judgment on the man who has committed adultery, even though he apparently is repentant? In the Doctrine and Covenants, 42:24-26, the Lord has given us a key to this situation. If a person commits adultery and then repents with all his heart, he may be forgiven. If he repeats the offense, he is not to be forgiven, but is to be cast out. As I read it, the Lord has not provided that, under those circumstances, he can come back again.

Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.2, p.93
Now this revelation was given before the endowment was made known. Since that time when a man is married in the temple, he takes a solemn covenant before God, angels, and witnesses that he will keep the law of chastity. Then if he violates that covenant it is not easy to receive forgiveness. I call your attention to this statement by the Prophet Joseph Smith: "If a man commit adultery, he cannot receive the celestial kingdom of God. Even if he is saved in any kingdom, it cannot be the celestial kingdom."

Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.2, p.93 - p.94
Of course, a man may, according to the Doctrine and Covenants, 132:26, receive forgiveness, if he is willing to pay the penalty for such a crime: that is he "shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption," which is the time of the resurrection. We cannot destroy in the flesh, so what the Lord will require in lieu thereof, I do not know. Anciently when the Church was a theocratic power with authority in all things, this law was carried out. "And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death."

Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.2, p.94
We have been taught that adultery is a crime second only to the shedding of innocent blood. We cannot treat it lightly. For a man to destroy another man's home is too serious an offense to be readily forgiven. Such a man should not be permitted to come back in the Church, under any circumstances, at least until years have elapsed. He should be placed on probation for that length of time to see if he can, or will, remain clean. Even then I confess I do not know what disposition the Lord will make of him. To permit him to come back within a short time has a very evil effect upon other members of the Church who begin to think that this enormous crime is not so serious after all.
It is a process involving both reason and faith for obtaining the mind and will of the Lord. -- Elder D. Todd Christofferson
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No CK for Adulterers.

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Re: No CK for Adulterers.

Postby John5 » Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:42 pm

Those guidelines are not being followed.
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Re: No CK for Adulterers.

Postby jcricket6048 » Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:11 pm

John5 wrote:Those guidelines are not being followed.

what guidelines are not being followed? If a man or a woman has committed this offense and it is brought up to the church then they will start the disciplinary council between who committed the offense. But first they need to ask them question regarding what has happened and the they go further. So tell me again what guidelines are not being followed?
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Re: No CK for Adulterers.

Postby Raindrop » Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:16 pm

JulesGP wrote:That applies to those who have received their C&E, not to everyone.


Neither of them said this. Do you have a reference for this considering both Joseph's and Joseph Fielding's statements? There is no context to support your C&E condition in the Joseph Smith History.

The Atonement is in fact conditional. Conditional on repentance. How could it be otherwise? Just like forgiveness is conditional. Being assigned to a kingdom is conditional. Blessings are conditional. Curses are conditional. Rewards are conditional. Punishments are conditional. Damnation is conditional. Being thrust into Outer Darkness is conditional. The bestowal of spiritual gifts is conditional. The Gospel teaches us how to meet the conditions necessary to be redeemed. And there are conditions.
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Re: No CK for Adulterers.

Postby John5 » Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:18 pm

jcricket6048 wrote:
John5 wrote:Those guidelines are not being followed.

what guidelines are not being followed? If a man or a woman has committed this offense and it is brought up to the church then they will start the disciplinary council between who committed the offense. But first they need to ask them question regarding what has happened and the they go further. So tell me again what guidelines are not being followed?



"If a person commits adultery and then repents with all his heart, he may be forgiven. If he repeats the offense, he is not to be forgiven, but is to be cast out. As I read it, the Lord has not provided that, under those circumstances, he can come back again."
Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.2, p.93

I know a number of people who are back in the Temple after a second and third offense. So I say the guideline quoted above is not being followed.
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Re: No CK for Adulterers.

Postby chase » Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:26 pm

The Lord told David he would have forgiven the adultery but not the murder didn't he? He told David that he would not leave his soul in hell, even after the murder. So what does this mean about God's willingness to forgive the adultery? I'm not condoning adultery, but I certainly hope there is some provision of forgiveness for them.
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Re: No CK for Adulterers.

Postby John5 » Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:28 pm

chase wrote:The Lord told David he would have forgiven the adultery but not the murder didn't he? He told David that he would not leave his soul in hell, even after the murder. So what does this mean about God's willingness to forgive the adultery? I'm not condoning adultery, but I certainly hope there is some provision of forgiveness for them.



David did it only one time. The quote by J.F. Smith indicates the Church would not forgive a second offense, it did not say the Lord would not forgive. So I am saying the Church is not following the guideline given.
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Re: No CK for Adulterers.

Postby RabbanahLlama » Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:31 pm

John5 wrote:
jcricket6048 wrote:
John5 wrote:Those guidelines are not being followed.

what guidelines are not being followed? If a man or a woman has committed this offense and it is brought up to the church then they will start the disciplinary council between who committed the offense. But first they need to ask them question regarding what has happened and the they go further. So tell me again what guidelines are not being followed?



"If a person commits adultery and then repents with all his heart, he may be forgiven. If he repeats the offense, he is not to be forgiven, but is to be cast out. As I read it, the Lord has not provided that, under those circumstances, he can come back again."

I know a number of people who are back in the Temple after a second and third offense. So I say the guideline quoted above is not being followed.


Joseph Fielding Smith Jr. explained that that scripture was given before the endowment was made known. Now that it is made known the bar has been raised and if you commit adultery now you are sinning against the greater light and shall receive the greater condemnation. I wouldn't count on making it to the Celestial Kingdom even after you repent of the first offense.
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Re: No CK for Adulterers.

Postby Raindrop » Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:33 pm

chase wrote:The Lord told David he would have forgiven the adultery but not the murder didn't he? He told David that he would not leave his soul in hell, even after the murder. So what does this mean about God's willingness to forgive the adultery? I'm not condoning adultery, but I certainly hope there is some provision of forgiveness for them.


David only had the Aaronic Priesthood and no endowments.

Where much is given, much is required. He who sins against the greater light receives the greater condemnation.
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Re: No CK for Adulterers.

Postby chase » Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:33 pm

John5 wrote:
chase wrote:The Lord told David he would have forgiven the adultery but not the murder didn't he? He told David that he would not leave his soul in hell, even after the murder. So what does this mean about God's willingness to forgive the adultery? I'm not condoning adultery, but I certainly hope there is some provision of forgiveness for them.



David did it only one time.


I'm going back to the original post, which I thought wasn't necessarily talking about repeat offenders.
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Re: No CK for Adulterers.

Postby chase » Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:42 pm

Raindrop wrote:
chase wrote:The Lord told David he would have forgiven the adultery but not the murder didn't he? He told David that he would not leave his soul in hell, even after the murder. So what does this mean about God's willingness to forgive the adultery? I'm not condoning adultery, but I certainly hope there is some provision of forgiveness for them.


David only had the Aaronic Priesthood and no endowments.

Where much is given, much is required. He who sins against the greater light receives the greater condemnation.


I respectfully disagree. I think David had quite a bit of light, probably more than we do. He was a king, not just of a country. He was called as a king by God. I think that means something. Specifically, that he must have been endowed by God. At least that's what I think.
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Re: No CK for Adulterers.

Postby Raindrop » Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:52 pm

chase wrote:I respectfully disagree. I think David had quite a bit of light, probably more than we do. He was a king, not just of a country. He was called as a king by God. I think that means something. Specifically, that he must have been endowed by God. At least that's what I think.


No problem. I'm just going off Joseph Smith.

"Although David was a king, he never did obtain the spirit and power of Elijah and the fullness of the Priesthood..." TPJS, pg. 339
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Re: No CK for Adulterers.

Postby gdemetz » Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:57 pm

It means that they won't be forgiven at that time. There is a danger in trying to interpret the scriptures too literally. You should read D&C section 19.
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Re: No CK for Adulterers.

Postby chase » Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:12 pm

Raindrop wrote:
chase wrote:I respectfully disagree. I think David had quite a bit of light, probably more than we do. He was a king, not just of a country. He was called as a king by God. I think that means something. Specifically, that he must have been endowed by God. At least that's what I think.


No problem. I'm just going off Joseph Smith.

"Although David was a king, he never did obtain the spirit and power of Elijah and the fullness of the Priesthood..." TPJS, pg. 339


Joseph Smith doesn't say anything about David only holding the Aaronic priesthood. There are higher priesthoods than the Aaronic which do not encompass a fullness. The law of Chastity comes in the middle of the process that is described in the endowment...not at the end.
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Re: No CK for Adulterers.

Postby RabbanahLlama » Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:13 pm

gdemetz wrote:It means that they won't be forgiven at that time. There is a danger in trying to interpret the scriptures too literally. You should read D&C section 19.


I've kept my interpretations to a minimum, and have based mine off of two Prophets' interpretations. Was there something specific in D&C 19 you were alluding to?
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Re: No CK for Adulterers.

Postby jcricket6048 » Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:20 pm

I know what you are coming from well when an individual goes in for a temple recommend he or she will go through a process and after that they will be ask if there is any deeds or misgiving on their part that needs to be taken care of and most of them will say that there is nothing to declare. Well this was their choice when they went into the interview. If they lied well they lied to our Bishop and Stake President as well as those when they went into the temple when they make a covenant before God, Angels and these witnesses. So you say that the guidelines are not being followed well that depends on if they are telling the truth.
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Re: No CK for Adulterers.

Postby Raindrop » Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:21 pm

chase wrote:Joseph Smith doesn't say anything about David only holding the Aaronic priesthood. There are higher priesthoods than the Aaronic which do not encompass a fullness. The law of Chastity comes in the middle of the process that is described in the endowment...not at the end.


Yes, the law of chastity comes before the ordinances of the Melchizedek priesthood in the endowment.
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Re: No CK for Adulterers.

Postby awake » Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:59 pm

jcricket6048 wrote: So you say that the guidelines are not being followed well that depends on if they are telling the truth.



I also see that the guidelines are often not being followed, even when leaders know about the multiple adulteries and the person admits it. They still are allowed right back in the temple.
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Re: No CK for Adulterers.

Postby HeirofNumenor » Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:02 am

awake wrote:
jcricket6048 wrote: So you say that the guidelines are not being followed well that depends on if they are telling the truth.



I also see that the guidelines are often not being followed, even when leaders know about the multiple adulteries and the person admits it. They still are allowed right back in the temple.



So then the punishment would also fall on the Bishops & Stake Presidents that knowingly let them go to the Temple.
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Re: No CK for Adulterers.

Postby awake » Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:03 am

HeirofNumenor wrote:
awake wrote:
jcricket6048 wrote: So you say that the guidelines are not being followed well that depends on if they are telling the truth.



I also see that the guidelines are often not being followed, even when leaders know about the multiple adulteries and the person admits it. They still are allowed right back in the temple.



So then the punishment would also fall on the Bishops & Stake Presidents that knowingly let them go to the Temple.


You mean 'Prophet and apostles', for they know about it too.
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Re: No CK for Adulterers.

Postby katmr » Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:40 am

I saw this thread and just wanted to share my personal experience. I hope that's okay. I hope you will forgive me that I do not offer quotes or scripture, this is only based on personal experience.
I was an excommunicated member of the church for committing this very greivous sin. I am now a re-baptised member. Going through the repentance process for this sin was the most awful beyond comprehension or imagination. I was literally delivered into spiritual hell. I felt what the Lord suffered for me. I was suffering in the pains of spiritual death. I was constantly racked by my sins that were at the forefront of my memory. I was on my knees constantly pleading with the Lord for forgiveness and for mercy which did not come immediately but at a later time. After many months I was sent a dream. I was sent one dream in which I saw myself being rebaptized. I also had another dream in which I saw myself as a damned spirit and was given a short message by two ministering angels. Not too long after my experiences my bishop called me in and said like he felt the spirit had really been prompting him that I was close to rebaptism, and shortly after that I was able to be rebaptized.
Whatever kingdom I am delivered to I will leave completely to the Lord but I have put my trust completely in the Lord and His atonement and I can testify of the depths he went to for me. This is a sin that I will NEVER commit again. The consequences were awful beyond comprehension. I am just so thankful to have finally been delivered from the most awful torment imaginable. It is truly something you would not wish on your worst enemy but there are laws and justice must be carried out. I do love my Savior and I do love the gospel. I will continue to live the gospel as fully as I can each day and leave my judgement in the Lords hands.
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Re: No CK for Adulterers.

Postby Mindfields » Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:39 pm

I find it odd that many of us spend time pointing out sins in others that we haven't committed ourselves or for that matter would "never" commit. We then proceed to making some sort of judgement regarding that sin. It usually goes something like this. "Well the Lord doesn't forgive that type of sin" or "If you commit sin "A" then your dammed and there's nothing you can do about it. They then quote Prophets and or Church leaders that they see as supporting their position.

I ask this question is there a scripture in any of the standard works that states plainly that an adulter who has "truly repented" and "forsaken" the sin will not make it to the Celestial Kingdom?

Quotes from various general authorities are all over the place. I believe you could just about support any position you desire regarding any topic just by selectively choosing the "right" quotes.
I believe as katmr believes that ones assignment to a kingdom in the next life is between yourself and the Lord.

Before we all suppose that we would never commit a particular sin that we find so terrible remember the Lord really gives the business to those who say never.
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Re: No CK for Adulterers.

Postby Helaman2000 » Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:00 pm

I don't buy that a sin is unforgivable, meaning that people lose exaltation over it. I believe that the intent of these statements saying that adulterer doesn't make it to the Celestial Kingdom is that an adulterer who does not repent cannot make it. I say that it is hyperbole. I don't buy that it is a blanket statement of condemnation for even people who are even repeat offenders. I think the Savior's atonement wipes out all previous sin if he decides it does, regardless of the nature of the sin, even many kinds and degrees of murder.
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Re: No CK for Adulterers.

Postby HeirofNumenor » Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:54 pm

Thank you for your poignant and touching relating of your experience... :ymhug:

katmr wrote:I saw this thread and just wanted to share my personal experience. I hope that's okay. I hope you will forgive me that I do not offer quotes or scripture, this is only based on personal experience.
I was an excommunicated member of the church for committing this very greivous sin. I am now a re-baptised member. Going through the repentance process for this sin was the most awful beyond comprehension or imagination. I was literally delivered into spiritual hell. I felt what the Lord suffered for me. I was suffering in the pains of spiritual death. I was constantly racked by my sins that were at the forefront of my memory. I was on my knees constantly pleading with the Lord for forgiveness and for mercy which did not come immediately but at a later time. After many months I was sent a dream. I was sent one dream in which I saw myself being rebaptized. I also had another dream in which I saw myself as a damned spirit and was given a short message by two ministering angels. Not too long after my experiences my bishop called me in and said like he felt the spirit had really been prompting him that I was close to rebaptism, and shortly after that I was able to be rebaptized.
Whatever kingdom I am delivered to I will leave completely to the Lord but I have put my trust completely in the Lord and His atonement and I can testify of the depths he went to for me. This is a sin that I will NEVER commit again. The consequences were awful beyond comprehension. I am just so thankful to have finally been delivered from the most awful torment imaginable. It is truly something you would not wish on your worst enemy but there are laws and justice must be carried out. I do love my Savior and I do love the gospel. I will continue to live the gospel as fully as I can each day and leave my judgement in the Lords hands.
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Re: No CK for Adulterers.

Postby gdemetz » Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:09 pm

Yes Llama. IN D&C it states that the term everlasting punishment does not mean that the punishment has no end. The prophet Brigham Young stated that some people preached that others would stay in hell forever, but he never preached such. He stated that there would always be a hell since some people would always need to be put there, but he stated that that did not mean that a person would always be even in the final hell! He stated that God's judgments were Godlike, and he further stated that if one could calculate how much punishment were necessary (assuming, of course, that they person totally repented), then it could be calculated as to how long a person would need to be there. James Talmadge has stated that there is a door to hell going in, and a door coming out. Despite what D&C seems to imply by stating that one can not progress from a lower heaven to a higher, it should always be remembered that God can revoke any punishment that he wishes. Years back, someone wrote the first presidency about this matter of advancing, and the answer was that they didn't know. However, it would seem to me that if a person could be even brought from outer darkness itself than they certainly could be brought to a higher kingdom.

To me, God's judgments would definitely not be Godlike if someone repented with all their heart a wanted to continue to progress, but God would then say; to bad it's too late for you! Trust me, the first presidency knows what they are doing! Second and third time excommunicated adulterers are getting their priesthood back because God's judgments are Godlike!
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Re: No CK for Adulterers.

Postby RabbanahLlama » Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:19 pm

gdemetz wrote:Yes Llama. IN D&C it states that the term everlasting punishment does not mean that the punishment has no end. The prophet Brigham Young stated that some people preached that others would stay in hell forever, but he never preached such. He stated that there would always be a hell since some people would always need to be put there, but he stated that that did not mean that a person would always be even in the final hell! He stated that God's judgments were Godlike, and he further stated that if one could calculate how much punishment were necessary (assuming, of course, that they person totally repented), then it could be calculated as to how long a person would need to be there. James Talmadge has stated that there is a door to hell going in, and a door coming out. Despite what D&C seems to imply by stating that one can not progress from a lower heaven to a higher, it should always be remembered that God can revoke any punishment that he wishes. Years back, someone wrote the first presidency about this matter of advancing, and the answer was that they didn't know. However, it would seem to me that if a person could be even brought from outer darkness itself than they certainly could be brought to a higher kingdom.

To me, God's judgments would definitely not be Godlike if someone repented with all their heart a wanted to continue to progress, but God would then say; to bad it's too late for you! Trust me, the first presidency knows what they are doing! Second and third time excommunicated adulterers are getting their priesthood back because God's judgments are Godlike!


Does the D&C really say punishment has no end?

10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—

11 Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.

12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.


And where do you get the idea God will revoke His judgements?

5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand.

6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.


Actually the Bruce R. McConkie described the whole idea of progressing from a lower kingdom to a higher kingdom as one of the seven deadly heresies that have crept in among us.

There are those who say that there is progression from one kingdom to another in the eternal worlds or that lower kingdoms eventually progress to where higher kingdoms once were.

This belief lulls men into a state of carnal security. It causes them to say, "God is so merciful; surely he will save us all eventually; if we do not gain the celestial kingdom now, eventually we will; so why worry?" It lets people live a life of sin here and now with the hope that they will be saved eventually.

The true doctrine is that all men will be resurrected, but they will come forth in the resurrection with different kinds of bodies—some celestial, others terrestrial, others telestial, and some with bodies incapable of standing any degree of glory. The body we receive in the resurrection determines the glory we receive in the kingdoms that are prepared.

Of those in the telestial world it is written: "And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end" (D&C 76:112).

Of those who had the opportunity to enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage in this life and who did not do it, the revelation says:

Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven; which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever. [D&C 132:16–17]

They neither progress from one kingdom to another, nor does a lower kingdom ever get where a higher kingdom once was. Whatever eternal progression there is, it is within a sphere.


God's judgement's are always just and "Godlike" or else he would be cease to be God. No one is in a position to say otherwise. He doesn't care what you, or me, or anyone else thinks of them. He is no respecter of persons. Sure the Church might let you get re-baptized and give you the priesthood again (like they did for my dad), but God's standard is higher than our Church's standard. And you don't just wake up one day and go commit a horrific sin like adultery out of the blue. You've given into Satan long before that.

I am not trying to discourage anyone or lift myself up above anyone. I am only discussing this because it is important that we really learn how severe some sins are, and how severe our punishment will be so we can avoid being taken captive by the devil and lead by his will to destruction.
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Re: No CK for Adulterers.

Postby awake » Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:29 am

When we repent, God says he remembers the sin no more. So if he mentioned sins of adultery at the Bar of Judgment, even though the person had repented, he would have lied and God cannot lie.

If someone truly repents and becomes righteous with the Holy Spirit as their guide, which means one is pure and clean, even though they had previously committed adultery, which probably the majority of the members of the Church commit in varying forms (for you can commit adultery without even touching or knowing the person, by thoughts, feelings or actions), then they are as clean and pure and forgiven and worthy as anyone else for the Celestial Kingdom.
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Re: No CK for Adulterers.

Postby gdemetz » Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:17 am

You answered your own question by one of your quotes. "Nevertheless it is NOT WRITTEN THAT THERE SHALL BE NO END TO THIS PUNISHMENT." You are right Awake, if we truly repent, the God will revoke any condemnation just as He revoked the destruction of Nineva. However, if we don't then He will not revoke the punishments. Also, I am aware what McConkie has stated concerning that matter. However, as great a theologian as he was, I beleive him to be wrong since he has apparently been overruled by a number of other prophets. He was also wrong when he stated, incredibly, a second time adulterer could not be forgiven, which is obviously wrong since many have been forgiven and sealed by authority of the first presidency since he said that! In my opinion, I think you should not try to dash the hopes of many who are earnestly trying to repent!
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Re: No CK for Adulterers.

Postby katmr » Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:54 am

RabbanahLlama wrote:
gdemetz wrote:Yes Llama. IN D&C it states that the term everlasting punishment does not mean that the punishment has no end. The prophet Brigham Young stated that some people preached that others would stay in hell forever, but he never preached such. He stated that there would always be a hell since some people would always need to be put there, but he stated that that did not mean that a person would always be even in the final hell! He stated that God's judgments were Godlike, and he further stated that if one could calculate how much punishment were necessary (assuming, of course, that they person totally repented), then it could be calculated as to how long a person would need to be there. James Talmadge has stated that there is a door to hell going in, and a door coming out. Despite what D&C seems to imply by stating that one can not progress from a lower heaven to a higher, it should always be remembered that God can revoke any punishment that he wishes. Years back, someone wrote the first presidency about this matter of advancing, and the answer was that they didn't know. However, it would seem to me that if a person could be even brought from outer darkness itself than they certainly could be brought to a higher kingdom.

To me, God's judgments would definitely not be Godlike if someone repented with all their heart a wanted to continue to progress, but God would then say; to bad it's too late for you! Trust me, the first presidency knows what they are doing! Second and third time excommunicated adulterers are getting their priesthood back because God's judgments are Godlike!


Does the D&C really say punishment has no end?

10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—

11 Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.

12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.


And where do you get the idea God will revoke His judgements?

5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand.

6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.


Actually the Bruce R. McConkie described the whole idea of progressing from a lower kingdom to a higher kingdom as one of the seven deadly heresies that have crept in among us.

There are those who say that there is progression from one kingdom to another in the eternal worlds or that lower kingdoms eventually progress to where higher kingdoms once were.

This belief lulls men into a state of carnal security. It causes them to say, "God is so merciful; surely he will save us all eventually; if we do not gain the celestial kingdom now, eventually we will; so why worry?" It lets people live a life of sin here and now with the hope that they will be saved eventually.

The true doctrine is that all men will be resurrected, but they will come forth in the resurrection with different kinds of bodies—some celestial, others terrestrial, others telestial, and some with bodies incapable of standing any degree of glory. The body we receive in the resurrection determines the glory we receive in the kingdoms that are prepared.

Of those in the telestial world it is written: "And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end" (D&C 76:112).

Of those who had the opportunity to enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage in this life and who did not do it, the revelation says:

Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven; which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever. [D&C 132:16–17]

They neither progress from one kingdom to another, nor does a lower kingdom ever get where a higher kingdom once was. Whatever eternal progression there is, it is within a sphere.


God's judgement's are always just and "Godlike" or else he would be cease to be God. No one is in a position to say otherwise. He doesn't care what you, or me, or anyone else thinks of them. He is no respecter of persons. Sure the Church might let you get re-baptized and give you the priesthood again (like they did for my dad), but God's standard is higher than our Church's standard. And you don't just wake up one day and go commit a horrific sin like adultery out of the blue. You've given into Satan long before that.

I am not trying to discourage anyone or lift myself up above anyone. I am only discussing this because it is important that we really learn how severe some sins are, and how severe our punishment will be so we can avoid being taken captive by the devil and lead by his will to destruction.


I just want to say thank you for all the thoughts on this thread and thank you for letting me share some of my experience. RabbanahLlama, I just have a question for you. I think I have some understanding on your thoughts but just have some sincere questions. Do you think members who have been rebaptized for this sin, should never be allowed rebaptism which is necessary to return to the Celestial Kingdom? Do you think once they have been rebaptized and repented with a complete and broken heart and turned to the Lord, that they are still not clean through the Atonement?
Do you think a person who has committed this sin has completely given themselves over to Satan and that there is absolutely no way back for them? Are you saying the Church is operating differently than God would have it operate by allowing rebaptism? or Priesthood blessings?
I know this isn't your intention but as gmetz stated, there may be those earnestly trying to repent who's hopes may be dashed and believe me when you're going through a repentance process of that severity, it doesn't take much to dash those hopes and give in to the lie that you are forever claimed by Satan (which Satan has worked so hard on me to believe time and time again.) but I do bear my testimony that my Savior has claimed my soul and he remembers this no more. How absolutely amazing is that? I testify and bear testimony of His Atonement for me and I am so thankful for his mercy and love that we can not even begin to comprehend. I'm truly hoping to be able to have my temple blessings restored soon and have worked for it with all of my heart. It is the most difficult and long way back and if you have any understanding what it takes to make it back, (literally going through hell and back) judgements would cease and those people would be welcomed back with love just as the Savior does. I only say this because of what I have experienced. You are free to your beliefs and I do respect those but for me personally to say that me or anyone else that has committed this sin has no chance at entering the Celestial Kingdom is for me to deny the Atonement made for me by the Savior and for anyone else that is truly repentant. Christ offers perfect hope and his promises to the truly repentant are that their sins are remembered no more. This is what I believe and know to be true and I hope for anyone struggling with a sin this severe they will turn to the Savior for deliverance. They do not have to be claimed by Satan. I am so thankful for the Atonement in my life and I need it every single day and so thankful that the Savior provided a way back for me.
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Re: No CK for Adulterers.

Postby patriotsaint » Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:18 am

"I do not know who in this vast audience today may need to hear the message of forgiveness inherent in this parable, but however late you think you are, however many chances you think you have missed, however many mistakes you feel you have made or talents you think you don’t have, or however far from home and family and God you feel you have traveled, I testify that you have not traveled beyond the reach of divine love. It is not possible for you to sink lower than the infinite light of Christ’s Atonement shines." (Elder Holland, CR April 2012)

Let's not place limits on the Atonement. He will not save us in our sins...but he most certainly has power beyond our comprehension to save us from our sins.
"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God!"- Patrick Henry
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