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John5 wrote:Those guidelines are not being followed.
JulesGP wrote:That applies to those who have received their C&E, not to everyone.
jcricket6048 wrote:John5 wrote:Those guidelines are not being followed.
what guidelines are not being followed? If a man or a woman has committed this offense and it is brought up to the church then they will start the disciplinary council between who committed the offense. But first they need to ask them question regarding what has happened and the they go further. So tell me again what guidelines are not being followed?
chase wrote:The Lord told David he would have forgiven the adultery but not the murder didn't he? He told David that he would not leave his soul in hell, even after the murder. So what does this mean about God's willingness to forgive the adultery? I'm not condoning adultery, but I certainly hope there is some provision of forgiveness for them.
John5 wrote:jcricket6048 wrote:John5 wrote:Those guidelines are not being followed.
what guidelines are not being followed? If a man or a woman has committed this offense and it is brought up to the church then they will start the disciplinary council between who committed the offense. But first they need to ask them question regarding what has happened and the they go further. So tell me again what guidelines are not being followed?
"If a person commits adultery and then repents with all his heart, he may be forgiven. If he repeats the offense, he is not to be forgiven, but is to be cast out. As I read it, the Lord has not provided that, under those circumstances, he can come back again."
I know a number of people who are back in the Temple after a second and third offense. So I say the guideline quoted above is not being followed.
chase wrote:The Lord told David he would have forgiven the adultery but not the murder didn't he? He told David that he would not leave his soul in hell, even after the murder. So what does this mean about God's willingness to forgive the adultery? I'm not condoning adultery, but I certainly hope there is some provision of forgiveness for them.
John5 wrote:chase wrote:The Lord told David he would have forgiven the adultery but not the murder didn't he? He told David that he would not leave his soul in hell, even after the murder. So what does this mean about God's willingness to forgive the adultery? I'm not condoning adultery, but I certainly hope there is some provision of forgiveness for them.
David did it only one time.
Raindrop wrote:chase wrote:The Lord told David he would have forgiven the adultery but not the murder didn't he? He told David that he would not leave his soul in hell, even after the murder. So what does this mean about God's willingness to forgive the adultery? I'm not condoning adultery, but I certainly hope there is some provision of forgiveness for them.
David only had the Aaronic Priesthood and no endowments.
Where much is given, much is required. He who sins against the greater light receives the greater condemnation.
chase wrote:I respectfully disagree. I think David had quite a bit of light, probably more than we do. He was a king, not just of a country. He was called as a king by God. I think that means something. Specifically, that he must have been endowed by God. At least that's what I think.
Raindrop wrote:chase wrote:I respectfully disagree. I think David had quite a bit of light, probably more than we do. He was a king, not just of a country. He was called as a king by God. I think that means something. Specifically, that he must have been endowed by God. At least that's what I think.
No problem. I'm just going off Joseph Smith.
"Although David was a king, he never did obtain the spirit and power of Elijah and the fullness of the Priesthood..." TPJS, pg. 339
gdemetz wrote:It means that they won't be forgiven at that time. There is a danger in trying to interpret the scriptures too literally. You should read D&C section 19.
chase wrote:Joseph Smith doesn't say anything about David only holding the Aaronic priesthood. There are higher priesthoods than the Aaronic which do not encompass a fullness. The law of Chastity comes in the middle of the process that is described in the endowment...not at the end.
jcricket6048 wrote: So you say that the guidelines are not being followed well that depends on if they are telling the truth.
awake wrote:jcricket6048 wrote: So you say that the guidelines are not being followed well that depends on if they are telling the truth.
I also see that the guidelines are often not being followed, even when leaders know about the multiple adulteries and the person admits it. They still are allowed right back in the temple.
HeirofNumenor wrote:awake wrote:jcricket6048 wrote: So you say that the guidelines are not being followed well that depends on if they are telling the truth.
I also see that the guidelines are often not being followed, even when leaders know about the multiple adulteries and the person admits it. They still are allowed right back in the temple.
So then the punishment would also fall on the Bishops & Stake Presidents that knowingly let them go to the Temple.
katmr wrote:I saw this thread and just wanted to share my personal experience. I hope that's okay. I hope you will forgive me that I do not offer quotes or scripture, this is only based on personal experience.
I was an excommunicated member of the church for committing this very greivous sin. I am now a re-baptised member. Going through the repentance process for this sin was the most awful beyond comprehension or imagination. I was literally delivered into spiritual hell. I felt what the Lord suffered for me. I was suffering in the pains of spiritual death. I was constantly racked by my sins that were at the forefront of my memory. I was on my knees constantly pleading with the Lord for forgiveness and for mercy which did not come immediately but at a later time. After many months I was sent a dream. I was sent one dream in which I saw myself being rebaptized. I also had another dream in which I saw myself as a damned spirit and was given a short message by two ministering angels. Not too long after my experiences my bishop called me in and said like he felt the spirit had really been prompting him that I was close to rebaptism, and shortly after that I was able to be rebaptized.
Whatever kingdom I am delivered to I will leave completely to the Lord but I have put my trust completely in the Lord and His atonement and I can testify of the depths he went to for me. This is a sin that I will NEVER commit again. The consequences were awful beyond comprehension. I am just so thankful to have finally been delivered from the most awful torment imaginable. It is truly something you would not wish on your worst enemy but there are laws and justice must be carried out. I do love my Savior and I do love the gospel. I will continue to live the gospel as fully as I can each day and leave my judgement in the Lords hands.
gdemetz wrote:Yes Llama. IN D&C it states that the term everlasting punishment does not mean that the punishment has no end. The prophet Brigham Young stated that some people preached that others would stay in hell forever, but he never preached such. He stated that there would always be a hell since some people would always need to be put there, but he stated that that did not mean that a person would always be even in the final hell! He stated that God's judgments were Godlike, and he further stated that if one could calculate how much punishment were necessary (assuming, of course, that they person totally repented), then it could be calculated as to how long a person would need to be there. James Talmadge has stated that there is a door to hell going in, and a door coming out. Despite what D&C seems to imply by stating that one can not progress from a lower heaven to a higher, it should always be remembered that God can revoke any punishment that he wishes. Years back, someone wrote the first presidency about this matter of advancing, and the answer was that they didn't know. However, it would seem to me that if a person could be even brought from outer darkness itself than they certainly could be brought to a higher kingdom.
To me, God's judgments would definitely not be Godlike if someone repented with all their heart a wanted to continue to progress, but God would then say; to bad it's too late for you! Trust me, the first presidency knows what they are doing! Second and third time excommunicated adulterers are getting their priesthood back because God's judgments are Godlike!
10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—
11 Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.
12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.
5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand.
6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.
There are those who say that there is progression from one kingdom to another in the eternal worlds or that lower kingdoms eventually progress to where higher kingdoms once were.
This belief lulls men into a state of carnal security. It causes them to say, "God is so merciful; surely he will save us all eventually; if we do not gain the celestial kingdom now, eventually we will; so why worry?" It lets people live a life of sin here and now with the hope that they will be saved eventually.
The true doctrine is that all men will be resurrected, but they will come forth in the resurrection with different kinds of bodies—some celestial, others terrestrial, others telestial, and some with bodies incapable of standing any degree of glory. The body we receive in the resurrection determines the glory we receive in the kingdoms that are prepared.
Of those in the telestial world it is written: "And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end" (D&C 76:112).
Of those who had the opportunity to enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage in this life and who did not do it, the revelation says:
Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven; which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.
For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever. [D&C 132:16–17]
They neither progress from one kingdom to another, nor does a lower kingdom ever get where a higher kingdom once was. Whatever eternal progression there is, it is within a sphere.
RabbanahLlama wrote:gdemetz wrote:Yes Llama. IN D&C it states that the term everlasting punishment does not mean that the punishment has no end. The prophet Brigham Young stated that some people preached that others would stay in hell forever, but he never preached such. He stated that there would always be a hell since some people would always need to be put there, but he stated that that did not mean that a person would always be even in the final hell! He stated that God's judgments were Godlike, and he further stated that if one could calculate how much punishment were necessary (assuming, of course, that they person totally repented), then it could be calculated as to how long a person would need to be there. James Talmadge has stated that there is a door to hell going in, and a door coming out. Despite what D&C seems to imply by stating that one can not progress from a lower heaven to a higher, it should always be remembered that God can revoke any punishment that he wishes. Years back, someone wrote the first presidency about this matter of advancing, and the answer was that they didn't know. However, it would seem to me that if a person could be even brought from outer darkness itself than they certainly could be brought to a higher kingdom.
To me, God's judgments would definitely not be Godlike if someone repented with all their heart a wanted to continue to progress, but God would then say; to bad it's too late for you! Trust me, the first presidency knows what they are doing! Second and third time excommunicated adulterers are getting their priesthood back because God's judgments are Godlike!
Does the D&C really say punishment has no end?10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—
11 Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.
12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.
And where do you get the idea God will revoke His judgements?5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand.
6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.
Actually the Bruce R. McConkie described the whole idea of progressing from a lower kingdom to a higher kingdom as one of the seven deadly heresies that have crept in among us.There are those who say that there is progression from one kingdom to another in the eternal worlds or that lower kingdoms eventually progress to where higher kingdoms once were.
This belief lulls men into a state of carnal security. It causes them to say, "God is so merciful; surely he will save us all eventually; if we do not gain the celestial kingdom now, eventually we will; so why worry?" It lets people live a life of sin here and now with the hope that they will be saved eventually.
The true doctrine is that all men will be resurrected, but they will come forth in the resurrection with different kinds of bodies—some celestial, others terrestrial, others telestial, and some with bodies incapable of standing any degree of glory. The body we receive in the resurrection determines the glory we receive in the kingdoms that are prepared.
Of those in the telestial world it is written: "And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end" (D&C 76:112).
Of those who had the opportunity to enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage in this life and who did not do it, the revelation says:
Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven; which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.
For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever. [D&C 132:16–17]
They neither progress from one kingdom to another, nor does a lower kingdom ever get where a higher kingdom once was. Whatever eternal progression there is, it is within a sphere.
God's judgement's are always just and "Godlike" or else he would be cease to be God. No one is in a position to say otherwise. He doesn't care what you, or me, or anyone else thinks of them. He is no respecter of persons. Sure the Church might let you get re-baptized and give you the priesthood again (like they did for my dad), but God's standard is higher than our Church's standard. And you don't just wake up one day and go commit a horrific sin like adultery out of the blue. You've given into Satan long before that.
I am not trying to discourage anyone or lift myself up above anyone. I am only discussing this because it is important that we really learn how severe some sins are, and how severe our punishment will be so we can avoid being taken captive by the devil and lead by his will to destruction.
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